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Archive through May 16, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Archive Thru May 2002 » Ouija Boards - The Real Shit? » Archive through May 16, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Since placebo uses a doctor, placebo is accepted by the medical community.

Um, the point of placebo-controls is to demonstrate without bias the rate at which people could be expected to recover with no treatent. It has very, very little to do with the "healing power of the mind". It is just a way of measuring how many people could be exected to recover without treatment. They would recover even if NOT given placebos, but it would be harder to objectively evaluate their condition.

Placebos are an experimental tool, not a treatment, and they whole point is that they are NOT supposed to do anything.
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OK, Blackjack- first off, I didn't say Fakir's had 'special powers' I said they had a great deal of control over thier bodies. And they do.

I have seen film of a man, who was in the biofeedback study (based on the teachings of a Fakir to a scientist) slash his arm open with a razor. Deeply- not that a shallow cut wouldn't bleed- spread the lips of the wound. No blood.
This was on PBS, so I lend it a good bit of credence.

In any case, I wasn't trying to argue specifics or convince you of anything- I am trying to get you to understand the cultural perspective of a mystic.

Your point seems to be that there is no scientifically recorded evidence, and mine is that there isn't likely to be, for the reasons outlined below.

Essentially, this isn't because of the scientific method, but rather the cultural component of science in the west. The automatic writing off of superstition- things like psychic powers, men who can be cut and not bleed, ball-lightning, ghosts.

Acupuncture works- but only recently have western doctors looked at it. It just wasn't scientifical enough.

So if the ghost of Gallileo were to float down the halls of the CERN installation today, rattling chains and making the particle accelerator bleed and moan- would they be able to see the ship?
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Kind of long, here is my story:

I grew up in hawaii. Lots of ghost stories there. One im familiar with is the one about "night marchers". Hawaiian ghosts walking in a line to some destination, normally for war. There was a televised show about how this one little boy would always wake up at night sometimes, and walk outside, toward the beach. It freaked his parents out quite a bit of course, but more so because when they caught him doing it, he always looked like he was holding someone's hand.

Later they found out that night marchers were going off to battle on that same path, to the same beach years ago, and they felt that they were walking in a line through the boys room, waking him up, and having him follow them. They moved his bed to the other side of the room, had the house blessed by a kahuna, and it stopped.

Anyway, I went back to visit hawaii last November. Have some good friends still out there. Now, I do not personally believe in an afterlife in any way period. It seems too.. well... Let's just say, If we were like turtles, laid and forgotten and not raised by parents, I don't think we would need to create an adult "god" or "dad" or whatever, or have to think happy thoughts about their being a "point" to things, and everlasting existence. Belief in an afterlife seems like a blanket to me...

My friend Justin and I bought some food, and decided to go up to Volcano national park on the Big Island of Hawaii. (where i am from). He had never been to Thurston's lava tube. It's wired with lights inside, and maybe about 1/2 mile long. Pretty big, but you have to park, and walk about 1,000-2,000 feet on a rough crappy cement path to get there. Unlit, as the park normally closes before dark. They don't close down the park at night, because there are a few hotels up there, mostly for tourists. I used to drive up there at night to look at the stars, and just hang out somewhere quiet, so i knew we could go up there with no problems.

So at about a little after midnight, we arrived, and were driving around looking for this place. I went to the lava tube as a child with my family, so i didn't remember where it was, and the park has no lights past the front gated area. Lots of roads, which lead to parking lots where you can see craters, smoking sulfur pits, and even one which goes down to a road which was covered with a lava flow a while back. That's a real trip, seeing a road suddenly covered with about 2 feet of lava rock. (the road is blocked off before this of course, the flow is still somewhat active close to there), but you are allowed to drive up to almost that point where the road is covered.

Well, we finally found the parking lot to the lava tube. They had a small sign. Now, there were 4 paths to take, 2 going left and 2 right on each side of the parking lot. No signs on any of the paths, so that didn't help. Wasn't a full moon out, but close enough, pretty clear, and bright enough to see.

We didn't bring flashlights, because we forgot to. We figured we didn't need them when we relized this, because i remembered the lava tube as having lights inside it. (Had to during the day, it would be totally dark otherwise). We were making tons of "menehune" and "night marcher" jokes. Menehune's are more like children, not ghosts, but we were still joking. It's dark, cold, and quite up there. You can see every damn star in the universe it's so high up. Ok, exaggeration, but that IS close to where the observatories are, the most powerful telescope in the world. All of our street lights on the big island are yellow, because it cuts down on the reflected atmospheric glare which would affect this telescope. This makes things even more clear for your eyes alone. It's a real trip
all of those stars, nothing else like it, nowhere even comes close.

So we tried a path, and after a while of walking, i figured it wasn't the right path, so we tried the other path... nope.

Then we tried one of the paths on the other side. One was going up, one down. I figured it would be the one going down, so we walked for a bit, then finally gave up, decided to drive around again just to make sure the sign we had seen said this was it. So we walk back, and drive around, yes, this was the place. Wish they had put up signs on the paths.

So we parked again, and started walking on the same lower path. This was a pretty rain forest"y" area, lots of trees, vines, and so forth, but the path was upkept well, like i said earlier, the path is like a rough concrete, maybe about 4-5 feet wide at most. Still, there was more than enough moonlight coming in through the trees for us to see. I wouldn't say you could easily see more than 15-20 feet into the trees though, but when the path was straight, you could see far. The path curved a bit, and was somewhat uneven, so I was mostly looking down at the path while I was walking, didn't want to walk off of it, trip on something or anything.

Well, after walking for maybe 5-6 mins, I rounded a corner, and all of a sudden, about 15 feet ahead there was this dark shape in the middle of the path. It took me a second to register it. At first, i thought, "woah, a tree stump? doesn't make sense, coming up through the concrete..." Then i stopped, and looked up at it.

It was this shape, someone standing there, wearing a black cloak pulled over their head, but not really over their face much. It was dark, so i couldn't make out any facial features. It was a little less wide then me, but it looked a bit taller.

My friend stopped behind me too. I thought, "oh, someone else is going here at night too". Then quickly i realized it wasn't moving, just standing there looking at us... ALSO without a flashlight. I was going to say, "Hi" but didn't, because I realized that it was too weird. I thought we were about to be mugged or something for a second, why else would someone be right there on the path, standing still, looking at us, and also not have a flashlight? (This whole thought process thing must have taken about 20-30 seconds max). I just stood there looking at it for a while, then noticed that the feet, well, this black shroud didn't touch the ground, it was about 2-3" off the ground. Not much, but enough to see the road behind it a bit, and see that it wasn't standing on the ground.

That was too much. Without turning around, I said to my friend, "What the fuck is that!?" He replied, "I don't know, let's get out of here", peeking over my shoulder at this thing.

I kept looking at it's face, because it was shady and dark, but had this slight shine to what could be a chin, or part of a face. Different lighting on it. I kept looking at it, up and down, noticing the fact that it seemed to be floating, and trying to see if it moved or if i could make out it's face. For a second i thought it was coming closer, but I realized it wasn't. It kept looking at us, directly at us.

"Chris, let's get out of here, I want to get the hell out of here!" my friend said.

Now like I said earlier, this was really creeping me out, but i have no belief in any afterlife, so I really wasn't about to just walk away. Instead, I started to walk forward, and after closing about half the distance, Leaving my friend behind me, I realized what it was.

A giant palm leaf had died, and was bent, still hanging on the tree, exactly in the middle of the path. It was still attached, so it was hanging a few inches off of the ground. I laughed, but I still felt wired. We both were. The head part didn't look like it had anything connected to it, I still don't know how the lighting made it look so damn much like a person. It was a perfect silhouette of a person, and was very 3 dimensional.

You had to have been there, it was just a trick of the light, and everything, but damn, it was so real it was sobering. It's like every ghost story you have ever heard in your life come true... Just the fact that this thing looked like it was wearing a black cloak (The silhouette of the leaf) seemed odd to me, almost well... stupid. Part of the reason why I couldn't stop looking at it.

Im glad I didn't go back and split like my friend
wanted to, because this would have plagued me for the rest of my life. Sadly, I think I saw the end to every ghost story ever told, by actually confronting what we saw. Your mind filling things in, and going awry, when it was just a simple thing, which with a flashlight, or good lighting would quickly let you see what it is.

We did turn back anyway, and hung out at the car for a bit, then tried the top path, and it of course led us right to the lava tube, in about half the distance we had walked to find the 'ghost'. So we ate our food, and made more jokes before we left...

Never told that to anyone before, so I figured I would share. : )

Sorry for the grammer and spelling, Im no writer.
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"But its efficacy vs. placebo has been demonstrated time and again. "

Placebo? Did someone said "placebo"?

What is the difference between placebo and faith healing? Placebo uses a doctor and faith healing uses a faith healer.

Since placebo uses a doctor, placebo is accepted by the medical community.

Faith healing, on the other side...
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Show your cards blackjack... data can be manipulated in so many ways, I know this first hand. I work in manufacturing, I am responsible for large amounts of information. I am required to put together large amounts of data and present reports everyday. No matter what the hard facts of the data are, I can make them into whatever I want, not by lying but by being selective in how I present them. This is basic. This is what science does. You can show me all the data you want, it's what you don't show that proves what I am talking about. The other day, there was a small blurb in the paper stating that motorcycle fatalities are on the rise. It had a pretty impressive chart showing a curve up from a particular year. And that was it. No other data was given. Now what were you supposed to surmise from this? What was their intent? To simply state that more motorcyclists are dying? That being on a motorcycle is increasingly dangerous? Nothing about the increase in the number of motorcyclists in the general population was noted, nothing about the increase in the number of cars on the road, nothing about the increase in the number of cell phone usage in the increase in the number of cars on the road, nothing about the decrease in motorcycle awareness, and so on. Just simply that more motorcyclists are dying. Now, my sixty year old mother in Arizona is calling me up saying "see, I told you so!"
So give me all the data you have, it's all a matter of conjecture. Scientists regularly disprove themselve from one year to the next on the same theory. They often make a new discovery leading them to rethink this theory or that. You want all my hard data? I'll give it you. Will it change your mind? No. Just like you haven't change my mind. I know what I know because I've much experience in what I'm talking about, not because some pile of papers, or arbitrary researcher says with his years of research... if you haven't done the research yourself, take it all with a grain of salt. Hard data means nothing unless you know what to do with it.
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

ECT is a complicated issue, and, I have granted in the past, not one of the shining examples of the scientific method at work. It's origins were based on a shaky empirical observation that some depressed and delusional patients who had epileptic seizures would often see a sudden improvement of the symptoms of their mental illness. This lead doctors to look for ways to simulate such seizures, through electricity and, quite horribly, insulin shock.

Keep in mind, at this point in history, there were NO effective means of treating depression and schizophrenia, and chronically depressed patients would either become burdons on society, be institutionalized, or, quite often, kill themselves. Does the severity of the illnesses justify wild leaps of logic and safety? Probably not, especially considering much of the work was done without consent of the patients or their families.

Anyway, from a purely empirical perspective, these treatments worked, at least with depression. Far more patients recocered from their depression following them that were recoviering in the absence of treatment. It's efficacy on other conditions is less well established. However, the side-effects were awful, particularly before the advent of the use of muscle relaxants to prevent the BODY from seizing along with the brain. Additionally, the treatments were mis-used by some as a means of controlling patients, which lead to their disreputation among many.

But, as time passed, doctors began to understand what might be going on with the recovery, and were able to find, both through experimentation and speculation, the frequencies, durations and locations for applying ECT which produced the best results with the least side effects. Once antidepressant drugs became availibile, ECT became a treatment of last-resort, both because of the risks and side-effects, and because of the fear it invokes. However, it is still considered the most-effective, and certainly fastest-acting treatment.

How does it work? When it was introduced, they had no idea. From my skeptical perspective, it was stupid dumn luck that it worked at all. But its efficacy vs. placebo has been demonstrated time and again. It has only been in recent years that we have had the technology to begin to understand what is going on, and there are clearly demonstrable changes in brain chemistry following ECT, including an increase of chemicals responsible for neuron growth and health in the mosolimbic region. In animal models, ECT has been demonstrated to have profound, if temporary, affect on noradrenaline transmission.

In recent years, there has also been some amount of research into trancranial magnetic stimulation, which uses powerful electromagnets to stimulate what are essentially micro-seizures in specific areas of the brain, allowing doctors to produce some of the beneficial effects of ECT without causing the trauma to the whole body. Research is still ongoing, and some of the recent work is less encouraging, but it is giving us a clearer model of how seizure-activity interacts with mental illness.

No, we don't have a clear model for the mechanism of ECT. This is true of numerous medical treatments, and not just psychiatric ones. While understaning of the mechanism would certainly be preferable, especially from a safety perspective, it is the ability to demonstrate efficacy that is the key to seperating workable treatments from bunk. And, in many cases, errors are made in research, and ineffective treatments are adopted or effective ones are ignored. There is no question about that. However, the basic principle, that the value of a treatment should be judged based on its demonstrated, reliable efficacy, is still strong.

If ECT had never been developed, and somebody suggested today that it might work, I'd be pretty skeptical. I'd want to see strong numbers showing a correlation between endognous seizure and recovery, I'd want some demonstration in animal models, etc., long before I'd ever think of using it on humans. This would have kept numerous patients with illnesses NOT effectively treated by ECT from having undergone it, and allowed for proper safety measures from the very beginning.

The point I am trying to make is that ECT was a wild and unfounded idea which just happened to work. But it DOES work, and this can be demonstrated. Any other wild, unfounded idea must also be able to demonstrate that it works before I will be willing to accept it.
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well OK then show me the model that explains how sending electric shocks through the brain seems to help depression. Just wire someone up and zap their brain with no idea what is going on. But hey, we have no idea why it works, what it does, no idea at all (a bit like the many reacorded miracle cures from Lourdes). We just do it and it seems to work. No solid research, no idea at all what is going on. But then it's science so that's ok. Scientists kid us that all of what they do is based on clear research and knowledge.

Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


People have had just as high or higher a success rate at beating depression with things like having a faith as they have had with more scientific treatments.

No, they haven't. I can produce huge quantities of data to support my position. Unless you are prepared to do the same, there is no point in continuing the discussion. Nobody is claiming that we have definite answers in regards to the functioning of the brain, but we are not totally in the dark, either. We know some things are more likely to work than others, and we have some pretty good models to explain this, models which can and are being tested and improved.
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 7:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The ice pick trick was performed on Frances Farmer, and Jessica Lange playing Frances Farmer. I dont know what it did for her depression but everyone thought she was a drunk after having been picked.
During the lunch hour at MIT I have personally seen alot of Witches, not banging down the door, but its not locked during that time.
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 3:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

> When they came back they asked him why he
> hadn't tried to see it.

> He responded: "Because I don't believe in
> them."

There's a wonderful book titled "Rhythms of Vision" (long out of print, though) that mentions an island people in the South Pacific when the first ship from Europe tied up in their harbor. Most of the tribe couldn't even see that ship. The shaman could, and he had to describe it to them and convince them it was out there. Of course, since there were no pencil-neck geeks around to wire the savages up to lie detectors, I'm forced to conclude the entire story is bullshit.

"Egan Moniz won the Nobel Prize in 1949 by sticking an icepick (I'm not making this up) around the eyeballs of schizophrenics and severing and mangling part of their brains."

You should watch "From Hell".
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You're talking about treatments, not cures... The mind is anything but scientific in this regard. Talk all you want about brain chemicals, neuro trasnmitters, etc but when it comes down to it, no one knows for sure how the brain works when it comes to depression. People have had just as high or higher a success rate at beating depression with things like having a faith as they have had with more scientific treatments. Why? Where is the science that can explain that? There isn't one. Therefore science is just as useful in treating depression as is pseudo-science or faith based healing. So strap on yer Aididas tennies, hop on yer UFO, whip out yer magic 8-ball and ask it how to get out of a funk next time... science can't explain it to ya...
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Yeah, science is fucking fabby when you really are depressed... about as exacting as star charts, tarot cards and ouija boards... might as well be the same at that point.

Well, not according to the numbers. Recovery from depression among people taking various drugs is quite significantly higher than it is among people who aren't treated. Psychophamacology is still one of the blurrier areas of science, no doubt, but they have reasonably accurate methods of determining the effiacy of treatments, something Tarot cards can't claim. If it's a choice between an 80% chance of recovery and a 40% chance of recovery, I'll take the 80...
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 10:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Indian Fakirs have long had the trick of doing things like controlling pain, moving organs voluntarily that aren't supposed to, stopping blood flow at will.

Um, no, they don't. They stick needles and hooks through parts of their body that don't have a lot of blood vessels and nerve endings. ANYBODY can do those tricks. There is a group in India which goes around doing demonstrations, picking volunteers randomly out of the audience who have no training, and proceeding to stick hooks through the flesh of their backs that they pull carts with. Why? Because the Fakirs are con-men who go around bilking people in rural towns, and this group wants to make people understand that they have no special powers.

Wanna see me eat glass? Walk on fire? Lie on a bed of swords? All tricks, or, more precisely, creative applications of physics and anatomy.


The drugs used by south american indians are another good example

The drugs used by south american indians can be tested emperically. Some of them are useful. Most of them aren't. But they can be tested. It is the chemical composition of the plants, not some belief system, which makes these things work.

And I don't scoff at anyone's belief system until after they tell me that they can't show me evidence to support it...
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Basically what I am being told is that there IS evidence, but they just aren't sharing it. Whatever."

It's a cultural thing. If we lived in a society where scientists accepted 'psychic' people, it would be different.

Given the hostility and condescension displayed by rationalist thought going waaay back towards such things, is it any wonder there are no witches battering down the door to MIT?

They talk to each other. Sometimes they try to write in non-jargoney ways so those not in the know can understand it. Just like scientists do.

But unlike scientists, they don't always believe in sharing discoveries.

There are two main reasons usually cited.

The first is that for the most part, they aren't doing this to further progress, couldn't give a shit about that. They are doing it to further their own personal enlightenment.

The second is that most traditions have a bit of a prohibition against just tossing knowledge around willy-nilly.

Alchemy, being recently discussed, is a great example.

Thelemic schools are also very heirarchical- in their texts you often find words like 'will be revealed to the initiate of the Funny Hat Degree, and not before.'

You find it in wiccan teachings, several branches of native american shamanism, etc, etc, etc.

Look- here's a good example that might make sense of this.

Indian Fakirs have long had the trick of doing things like controlling pain, moving organs voluntarily that aren't supposed to, stopping blood flow at will.

Science had always scoffed at such claims.

Until some few scientists had open minds about it and began to study it.

Thus was born Biofeedback, and thus were several test subjects eventually to learn how to do the above.

The drugs used by south american indians are another good example, but you see what I'm saying here. You scoff at someone's beliefs and practices, give them no reason to co-operate with you (especially when they don't share your Progress Thru Science ethos) and no, they won't share what they know.

In fact, the openness science has assumed since the days of alchemy may have been an error.

Because of that openness, we now live in a world where we have plenty to eat, motorcars, computers and molebdynum steel. And bio-weapons, nukes, smog and more garbage than we can get rid of.
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah, science is fucking fabby when you really are depressed... about as exacting as star charts, tarot cards and ouija boards... might as well be the same at that point.
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Oh yeah, science has a real grip on depression all right...

It's certainly doing a better job than it used to, and it's a hell of a lot better than nothing.
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Indeed- none of the people I have met who displayed any psychic abilities have ever shown any interest at all in measuring them scientifically.

That is an incredibly selfish attitude, if you asked me.

Basically what I am being told is that there IS evidence, but they just aren't sharing it. Whatever. I have a 23" penis and can cut 1-3/4" steel pipe with my ass sphincter. If you doubt me, it's because you are closed minded and refuse to accept anything that doesn't agree with your world-view.

My martial-arts instructor once joked to the class that, now that he had reached 8th dan, he had the ability to walk through walls, but he wouldn't show us, because the radiation would kill us all if he did...
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh yeah, science has a real grip on depression all right...
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

well just remember it is science that has established our way of life.when you are sick,depressed,injured,expecting child,xploring space,drinking absinthe,that is science in some shape or form talking.i hear so often from religious peole how much they believe that science is a big lie.well how long did we have to wait for a "scientist" to invent the light buld?to turn your back on science is to turn your back on all the hopes and dreams of the human race..
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

" you want to know what is LIKELY, then you'd do well to look for evidence... "

Indeed- none of the people I have met who displayed any psychic abilities have ever shown any interest at all in measuring them scientifically.

I have the evidence for that hypothesis, thank you.

Even if you don't beleive they have such abilities, THEY believe it- and so that shouldn't affect their decision either way.
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

BJ, it's not only a matter of looking for evidence. It's also a matter of what do you do with the evidence when you have it.

Let me tell you a true story. My uncle, who lives in Northern Argentina, was at his town's social club when someone said: An UFO! Everybody rushed out and saw it. But him. When they came back they asked him why he hadn't tried to see it.

He responded: "Because I don't believe in them."

Besides being a hard-headed Basque, my uncle also represents the feelings of a lot of the "science" community. Only he's more candid about them.

What is "science"? Science is whatever a small elite of "scientists" decide it is.

Egan Moniz won the Nobel Prize in 1949 by sticking an icepick (I'm not making this up) around the eyeballs of schizophrenics and severing and mangling part of their brains.

What a bummer that the Inquisition didn't think of this first. Why burn heretics? What a waste of wood. If we only stick a long, thin, pointy stiletto into their brains...

And things have gotten even weirder later. "Science" used to be easy: whatever you can measure and predict. But now we are asked (by the scientific priesthood) to believe in things we cannot predict (superstrings?) or measure (the behaviour of elementary particles.

We are spending zillions of dollars in underground ponds to detect just ONE OCURRENCE of ONE PARTICLE. And if we get just ONE...woohoo, Nobel Prize for the head of the project and unlimited research money. You know why? Because it fits their model.

The fact is: most of us don't understand their model anymore. We are asked to act in faith. I'm not talking about the morons amongst us. I'm talking about the regular people here.

Who in this Forum can raise his/her hand and say that they understand relativity? And relativity has been with us for about the same time as the absinthe ban. We just believe that they know what they're saying.

How about spending a small fraction of that money in detecting (or rather confirming) what most people know? That they are and have been some millions of psychic phenomena that don't fit in any equation.

BJ, by all means, defend science. There are too many channelers, horoscopes and messages from the Pleyadeans.

But let's not discount something because it doesn't fit our present model of the universe.

Remember. Some priests refused to look through Galileo's telescope and see Jupiter's satellites. Like my uncle. Like some other people today.
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

from ouija boards to physics,perhaps they share something in common..
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Why would anyone who could do such things want to go to a scientist?

Again, you then fall into the realm of crippling agnosticism. Is it POSSIBLE that there are people with psychic powers who are hiding them? Sure, just like it's POSSIBLE that I'm really the Last Son of Krypton, disguised as a mild-mannered systems analyst for a mediocre international newspaper. It is POSSIBLE, even, that monkeys might fly out my butt. However, if you want to know what is LIKELY, then you'd do well to look for evidence...
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 5:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

blackjack, these people are a waste of your good will and good reason. give it up.

nonetheless: hooray for blackjack's good will and good reason!
Posted on Tuesday, May 14, 2002 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, so it really is okay to be a hitman!!!!

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