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Archive through May 28, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Archive Thru May 2002 » OK, we're fucked. » Archive through May 28, 2002 « Previous Next »

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_Blackjack
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

The Gulf War victory, and the resulting stabilization of oil prices, saved Chilean democracy. And Chile was not the only country whose fate hung in the balance.



Of course, if we hadn't overthrown Chile's democratic government in the FIRST place...
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 8:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Everything and everyone on this Earth has a financial value. If permanantly removing anything or any person leads can to a greater financial benefit (for those pulling the strings) than them continuing to exist then they will be removed.

Forget honour, justice, and 'doing the right thing', it's all about money pure and simple. War is just business and one thing you can be sure of is that those risking their necks fighting won't be the ones making all the money. The beneficiaries will be tucked away safely in their mansions and penthouses. War is just 'business as usual' for these people.

Hobgoblin
Chevalier
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 8:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

There's a HELL of a lot more to oil than "the right to fill up one's SUV".

In 1991, Chile had its first democratically-elected president in 17 years. The military dictatorship was over, but the military itself retained enormous powers and sat in the shadows, waiting for an excuse to take back the presidency. Chile's inflation level was decreasing, but since it is a country that has to import practically all of its oil, Iraq's invasion of Kuwait struck Chile (and its new, still-fragile democracy) a knockout blow. Within two weeks, the inflation rate climbed to such a point that a military coup d'etat ("to restore economic order") seemed imminent.

The Gulf War victory, and the resulting stabilization of oil prices, saved Chilean democracy. And Chile was not the only country whose fate hung in the balance.

Oil, GLOBAL economics and INTERNATIONAL politics -- you can't separate them.
Wolfgang
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 8:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Business is now the perfect excuse for not being human.

Business above all is the new rule.


But we already know that...
Artemis
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 6:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

> Or am I just being paranoid ??

No, you speak the truth; that was disgusting.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 5:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Whatever happens on this planet, be it good or bad, one thing you can be certain of is that someone somewhere is making a whole load of money out of it. Buy hey, that's market forces for you, afterall capitalism has no moral scruples. Who cares whether money is made from the misery caused at home or misery caused abroad? It's all just business and afterall everything that happens in politics is driven by money, it's not personal it's only business.

Hobgoblin
Nascentvirion
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 5:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wanna know what makes me even sicker. That right after 9/11 and still to this very moment. Retail outlets chose to have this big sale on Red White and Blue Merchandise. This whole you will not be forgotten marketing stink. The mass production of flag related junk. Magnets for your car, Sweaters, Cheap posters with eagles on them, the overproduction of NYFD/NYPD shirts,hats, pants, visors, mugs,cups, boxers, keychains etc.... It makes me sick to my stomach that companies like Wal Mart, Target, K Mart saw 9/11 as one big chance to sell cheap plastic red,white,blue crap and to make massive amounts of money off of the loss peoples lives. Its like where was this stuff before 9/11 happened ? Wal~Mart stores were the biggest peddlers of this crap. Did this bug anyone else ?? Or am I just being paranoid ??
Artemis
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 3:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The only thing that upsets me more than the turdbiting assmonkey who made the comment, is the fact that no one else called him on it. It's sad, very sad."

I don't bandy words with the clueless. I said what I had to say to cowardly anti-military punks in general; if one or two mince out and wave their little punk hankies to show my dart hit the mark, it's nothing to me.

You did well; don't let this shit upset you.

Thanks, Marc.
Pablo
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, also, I think a true patriot would show us her boobs!

(Please? I drive a VERY small car!)
Pablo
Posted on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I served my time in the Army. I was in infantry. Air assault. I was too young, but my dad was a 55y/o infantry 1stSgt in desert storm. He felt then (along with alot of soldiers) and feels now that THAT was a bullshit conflict. Now its different.
The right to criticize one's leaders and gov't is basic. Its also the american way.
Fact: the american military is GROSSLY under trained. This according to a pentagon report that was comissioned about 5 years ago. Since the report, the military training budget has been cut even more. All the gadgets in the world don't matter if the soldier cant effectivly use them. (and before anyone jumps down my throat, Im not referring to special forces or any of our eliete troops). Air wars have their place, but without an infantryman on the ground, you dont control that piece of realestate.

As for hippies. My dad was also a hippie before he joined the military and was sent to Viet Nam. "Hippies" are true patriots in many ways. They don't blindly wrap themselves in "patriotism" without questioning if the gov't is doint the right thing. They get involved in politics, and quite often they know more about what is happening in the world then most "patriotic americans".
Claiming to be a patriot is fine, but the true sign of a patriot is questioning, as well as supporting your gov't. You think Bush has YOUR best interests in mind? Probably not. Most politicians don't. But is he doing the right thing? Is the administration handling things in the best manner? Thats what needs to be asked more often.
Too many people use the title "patriot" as an excuse to not pay attention or be well informed. Also, too many of those people don't vote. How the fuck can you claim to be a patriot, and not vote????? I've noticed alot of "patriots" nowadays telling other people to shut up. That voicing their opinions isn't allowed because their opinions are some how "unpatriotic".

Repeat after me: "have you ever been a member of the communist party?".
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mogan David,

People who stay at home and sit back and let others do the fighting for them have no right to brand as cowards etc. others who stay at home fr moral reasons and vocally oppose fighting and killing. Those who've risked their neck for their beliefs at least have a right to get stuck into anti-war protesters and the like. But to say that you contribute your bit to the war effort by paying your taxes, well virtually everybody does that, even those who oppose the war, big deal.

It's easy to talk the talk but not so easy to walk the walk. At least those who are opposed to war and stay at home to protest against it are walking their walk, just as those who join up and fight are walking their walk.

If you're so in favour of military action then you should be out there in the sweat and grime, dodging the bullets (but then I suppose your mortgage payments and career are more precious, so better let someone else do the dirty work).

Hobgoblin
Pikkle
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

pikkle's never confused when he's drunk... it's the other way around...
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nice Moose Knuckle blackjack.
Verawench
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

YES!!!!!
TAKE-IT-OFF!
TAKE-IT-OFF!
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 8:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

How about Vera brings some reason to the forum and _I_ show you my boobs?
Verawench
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 8:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"bumping and grinding in tight pants and a tube-top"

You have me confused with Pikkle, when he's drunk.
Destiny
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 8:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

C'mon Vera, don't be a Britney Spears; bumping and grinding in tight pants and a tube-top but completely unwilling to show us your boobs!

There should be a law about it...
Pikkle
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 8:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

sure...
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

all right then, Betty is the Messiah, and I'm going to join the army so I can stab babies to death and then fuck the stab wounds.
His name was Robert Paulson.
By the way guys, I'm joking.
Verawench
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not gonna happen. I enjoy watching you punks go at each other over assorted nonsense.

Of course, I would prefer unbridled absurdity and general silliness...
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

And thanks blackjack for bringing a little reason to the forum. Now if Vera would just come in and show us her boobs this entire argument would be defused....
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I don't recall calling all our soldiers murdering rapists. I made a joke, an exaggeration, a hyperbole about a video game thats turning killing into a fucking cartoon, and I decided to throw a little realism in there. Some of our soldiers in Desert Storm did shoot surrendering Iraqis in the back. Its the exception to the rule and it was intended as a contrast to the video game absurdly portraying killing as "defending freedom". Many many people on this forum however seem to be hypersensitive babies who take sarcasm literally and take it personally if you disagree with them. I got heat the other day from jokingly referring to Betty as Osama Betty Laden as well. Its a fucking joke man, you guys need to lighten up. And the utopian solution I have to war is education. It will take a very long time, and I agree that those who would kill not only our soldiers but our innocent civilians do not deserve to be called human, and should be killed as quickly as possible. We have no other choice. However, the more educated the world becomes (and the less fundamentalist religion has a grip on various cultures), the less likely others will be to go to war. I don't go out and kill my neighbor or others who believe differently than I do. How did I learn to to not murder my fellow man (and fellow forumites)? Through a decent education and the culture I was raised in which taught me to respect life. You can mock me for being idealist if you want, and I understand that the present reality is that we have to kill others might kill us if we don't, but I'm looking optimistically towards the future. Look at fucking Canada, man! When was the last time they were attacked or started a war? They can live in harmony with the world, so it's obviously possible. The rest of the world and us has to try harder.
Aroquentin
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh dear, I have been cautioned. I guess I'll have to take the serious heat from the friends of Artemis here in the Absinthe forum. Feel free, friends of Artemis, and defenders of the American way of life.

I suppose the "patriots" among us aren't interested in why a stock trader named Elgindy was just arrested along with two FBI agents who Elgindy was paying for classified information about companies which he used to profit in the market. Interesting thing is that the federal prosecutor has just accused Elgindy of having foreknowledge of 9/11 since Elgindy sold all his holdings on 9/10, telling his broker "get out of everything, the market is going to 3000 after tomorrow." Or why an FBI agent is accusing her superiors of deliberately and maliciously trying to halt investigation of Zacharias Moussaoui's computer before 9/11.

A good friend of mine has made more than 500% since the beginning of last year in the market. He did this by buying defence and oil stocks, particularly those that have connections to the Bush family and to Dick Cheney's interests. He told me that a war was guaranteed with a Bush in the white house, oil/defence was a no brainer. I didn't believe it but's he's raking it in now.

Bottomline is this: people in US intelligence and the Bush admin knew an attack was planned, and let it happen "for the greater good." Sure, we can beef up security, increase defense spending, take out some enemies and get control of a great deal of oil to boot, all in exchange for a few civilian casualties. Good for the country, and good for the pocketbooks of all involved. They probably didn't expect the destruction of the twin towers and the death of 3000 but they sure are using that to their advantage too.

How could anyone willingly serve as a pawn for these interests? Offer to die for them? 1. Stupid 2. Crazy 3. No alternative. That's all I'm saying.

If you don't believe it then look up the mainstream stories on Elgindy, or read the letter from the FBI agent in Time. Just the tip of the iceberg. Could be quite a scandal for dubya and friends if they can't cover it up. Lookup "elgindy" or "rowley" in Yahoo news for coverage. Interesting to note that the Federal judge just disregarded the prosecutor's accusation about Elgindy knowing of 9/11 the day before. They don't even want to investigate it?
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 5:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

On 9/11, all four of those planes should have been sent to Washington D.C. - that would have made Osama Bin Laden one of the county's greatest patriots.



Oh, come now. Whatever you opposition to the government's policies, you can't really think that killing innocent people is a productive response. Killing the specific people responsible for propegating the policies you oppose would be bad enough (that's how dictatorships work), but you are talking about killing hundreds of people who have nothing to DO with these things. For every senator and congressman in the Capitol, there are dozens of clerks and technicians and reporters and food-service workes and custodians, etc., who are just doing their jobs.

It is the assumption that it is OK to kill innocent people in the name of some cause that is the root of the problem. It is wrong when "Us" does it and it is wrong when "Them" does it.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, May 27, 2002 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Here's an idea, we could nuke Israel! Maybe start another Holocaust, that out to molify them, for a while.



Where the hell did that come from? Opposition to the present Israeli government's policies towards the Palestinians is NOT the same thing as wanting to kill all the Jews. I hate to say it, but there are a lot of Jews, IN ISRAEL, who oppose their government's tactics, because they realize that Israel will never see peace if the violence continues to escalate.

Again, you are drawing false dichotomies and constructing straw men. It is possible to support the Israeli people, even to support the State of Israel, without endorsing the present regime. And it is even possible to oppose the idea of Israel as a solely Jewish state without having any hostilities towards Israelis specifically or Jews in general. The US has MANY options in dealing with Israel between unfaltering support and nuclear annihilation.

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