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Archive through June 05, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Archive Thru June 2002 » Void » Archive through June 05, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Wednesday, June 5, 2002 - 5:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rabid,

"You say they aren't actually doing anyone any good by trying to save their souls...

Which is perfectly valid, as long as you accept the assumption as given and set in stone that they are incorrect."

No Rabid this is a perfectly valid assumption so long as you believe that no one group has a monopoly on Truth and that there are many alternative paths each person can take. Therefore trying to convert a person is a waste of time. It is pure arrogance and does not even recognise any possibility that there is a chance that the beliefs of the converter may be anything other than 100% right and superior to the beliefs of all others.

Hobgoblin
Pikkle
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

you've played "pee-pee boy" to the extreme... now stop so I can finish my cole slaw... thanks...
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I can't do it anymore- I think I played Aggressive Christian's advocate fairly well, but ultimately it comes down to a circular position.

"We are only being assholes for your own good. God told us to do this."

Taken from its own perspective, such a belief can only be correct. Yet from any other, the assumptions it is founded on turn out to be paper mache.

It isn't just Christians and Muslims...some Hindus tried to force-feed me some of that old time religion in Philadelphia once.

I believe in "live let live" for these reasons:

1.No resources are wasted on, and no pointless suffering results from any purges, pogroms, burnings or stonings, because you don't have any.

2. You can lead a horse to Nirvana, but you can't make him climb the rope. Spirituality is not like digging a ditch- your heart must be in it, it has to come from within you. You can't make someone do it at gunpoint. You can only make them pretend. Eventually, there will be no true believers left.

3. Diverse beliefs and practices available to all means that the best may be taken (each to their own opinion of what constitutes the best.) This also means a population more easily able to understand outsiders.

God- this we pray: save us from your deranged fans!
Robertsmith
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Damn right Dr. O. Or is it Dr. No? You weren't joking about that Walther, were you?....
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hob:

There are other reasons for attacking Christians (specially of the Fundamentalist persuasion), besides them not being cool.

If they were to stay in their universe, it'll be OK. But, you see, they don't limit themselves to say: "OK, guys and girls, we won't commit divorce", or "abortion", or "pornography". "Let the pagans do those things and be condemned".

Nope. They want to impose their beliefs on us. I have never seen a Pagan trying to ban a biography of St. Francis from the Public Library. I have never seen a Pagan trying to impose divorce on a couple, or abortion on a woman. Would you like some examples of the contrary case?

It's not that they are not cool. It's that they are authoritarian. They believe they are superior to us (OK, 99% of us Earthians think the same) but the difference is that they ACT on that belief.
Robertsmith
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Geez, and I thought I was bad for raping them. It's so hard to get their blood off my clownsuit...
Pikkle
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

no, that was me... yummy!
Nascentvirion
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The KKK took my baby away....
Robertsmith
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bah!
I never said they shouldn't be tolerated. We have no choice but to tolerate them, and I'd fight to the death for their right to preach all they want. They have the right to their freedom of religion, just as I have my freedom to be atheist, and I support their right. I would also fight for the KKKs right to call anyone a nigger, even though I find the KKK horrifying and evil evil evil. Evangelical Christians, however, do not and would not fight for anyones right to be homosexual or use drugs or have abortions or be atheist. My resistance to their attempts at conversion is not even remotely intolerant, it's simply defending my right to my own beliefs. I don't go out on the subways handing out pamphlets about how god is just an ancient version of santa claus and that if everyone believed this life was all there was, everyone would have a lot more respect for human life and try and make the most of it rather than basing every action on a remote possibility that death is not the end. I'm probably one of the most tolerant people you'll ever know.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bah!

You say they aren't actually doing anyone any good by trying to save their souls...

Which is perfectly valid, as long as you accept the assumption as given and set in stone that they are incorrect.

Which you can't, really, when trying to analyse their motives.

You preach tolerance and diversity, and anyone that disagrees with you on that score on the grounds that such practices lead to burning in a lake of fire forever is... not to be tolerated?
Robertsmith
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Don't forget to roll off around 400hz. Then put that shit through a subharmonic synth, and people will be dropping loads in their skivvies for Jesus....
Pikkle
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 8:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I really think what we need is more compression... about the 1k to 5k area, makes you sound better on radio...
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 8:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

How much compassion is there in the actions of politicians and celebs who attend flashy charity balls and galas and make big on-the-record donations? Sure a lot of this will go to the needy and this is certainly charity, but is it compassion or self-serving actions done for all to see?

Charity is sometimes unconditional, whereas compassion is always unconditional.

Hobgoblin
Nascentvirion
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 5:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"When I'm dictator you will all bow down under the thumb of Jeeezus, time to burn all rock n roll records and pornography. Lets not forget that COed Swimming. Phoooey ! Promotes problems of the flesh, problems of the flesh ! The Flesh !! The Flesh ohhhhh I can't stand it !"

Jello Biafra with Ministry (Lard) Hellfudge
Albertcamus
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 4:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

charity is about compassion.at least for me.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, June 4, 2002 - 4:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Camus,

I agree, but I'd change the wording to 'compassion and self-preservation(finding one's centre)' or better still 'compassion for others and oneself (which encompasses finding one's centre)'. Everything else is just window dressing.

Hobgoblin
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

and yummy little altar boys....
Albertcamus
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The only aspect of religion that I have seen of value is charity and self-preservation{finding ones center}thats about it.
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You damn right! I'm honestly not an even slightly religious person, but I do have a lot of repect for those religions who actually spend lots of time and money trying to help those in need, and those guys deserve a lot of credit, but it seems to me that the evangelical presence is growing larger every day, and the evangelicals just don't seem very interested in helping their fellow man, unless it somehow involves saving his soul.
Quoth the robert via the pikkle: Bah!
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree with you Robert Smith. Nobody has any right whatsoever to try to 'convert' anyone else. The very notion is arrogant as it assumes that you know what is right and the other person does not. We are all different therefore we all need and respond to different things in different ways. What suits one person may not suit another. People should worry about saving their own souls (if they believe in a soul) and let others worry about theirs. If someone thinks that a particular path will lead to their own salvation, enlightenment or whatever then they should follow it and let others follow their chosen path. If they are so sure of their own place inside the 'Pearly Gates' then I feel they are deluding themselves about the ease with which a person can get there. They should also perhaps accept the possibility that there may be more than one viable road to follow. In fact there are probably an infinite number of viable roads to follow (and also an infinite number of roads that lead you to the sewer) .

Hobgoblin
Pikkle
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Quoth the pikkle "bah"
Pikkle
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

ba-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-h...
Pikkle
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bah....
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry, I get particularly enthusiastic about this topic, and don't mean to sound preachy, but I honestly don't see Christianity doing the "good" it thinks it is.
To quote Pikkle:
BAAAHHHH!!!!
Robertsmith
Posted on Monday, June 3, 2002 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have the utmost respect for religions that spend time and money trying to genuinely help those in need. Seventh Day Adventists are a good example of those who give lots of aid without preaching. However, I have absolutley no repsect for those Christians who go out of their way to try and change someone elses belief systems for the sake of "saving their soul". Trying to change someone else's entire life philosophy is not a benevolent action. It is an intolerant disrepectful arrogant action that in my opinion shows a real insecurity in one's own belief system, namely that it is not enough for them to believe, but they must also convince everyone else it is true as well, otherwise they're not a good Christian. Telling someone that being homosexual will get them sent to hell is not a "service". It is intolerant myopic absolutism, and it is a threat to the diversity of the world. These Evangelical Christians want nothing more than the entire world to accept Jesus as their saviour and to fall in line with their own Christian Dogma. Is that a good intention? I believe they believe it is, but I don't believe telling everyone the Bible says everyone who's doesn't accept Jesus as their saviour is going to hell is a service to anyone anywhere. Damn right theocracy should be fought at every turn, but while evangelicals may not want the government involved in religion, they still want the whole world to be Christian, and that in my mind is very dangerous. I actually admit I have had a few decent conversations with Southern Baptists, but they were not the evangelical types I'm referring to here. The vast majority of southern protestant faiths I know of do very little public service and spend most of their time denouncing abortion or youth group brainwashing functions or ridiculing homosexuality or promoting sexual abstinence or telling women where there place is in the household. Ironically I've never heard a contemporary protestant religion preach against greed.....
Hmmmmm....
All those taxes they aren't paying aren't going to feed the homeless. They're mostly going to anti-abortion pregnancy counseling centers (AAA womens Clinic in particular received millions from the southern baptist convention last year), youth group T-shirts, bigger church parking lots, bigger churches, and food for potluck dinners. They're not doing anyone much good. I'm not saying anyone should stop them, but I don't consider their intentions good for anyone, and I think it's important to question what good "trying to save your soul" could possibly do?

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