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Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Archive Thru June 2002 » Ok.... « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 07, 2002_Blackjack25 6-7-02  11:24 pm
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Traineraz
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hob -

An undergrad degree means I at least am well aware of everything YOU had to say; my point being that you jumped down my throat when I thought I had quite clearly said essentially the same thing you did.

Next time you want to give a lecture, try clarifying the other person's position first, if you don't understand what s/he is saying.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

That's the forum for you Crowlyman. Who says we don't stay on topic?
Crowlyman
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jeez. All I wanted to know was if I can buy San Pedro cactus without Unkie Sam fingerin me bum!
I guess I'm going to find a nice nursery around here and get my grubby hands on some plants...I'll pay with cash. ;) (as if that makes me slick!)
Nolamour
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

HA HA...and you'd need to be meditating your ass off to make it do otherwise.

I hear ya!
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Can't you choose to be threatened or not? This is mental ability, no? Unless, of course, it's physical.



That's my point: the PHYSICAL mechanism of threat-arousal is malfunctioning. Observing someone having a panic attack really drives this home. Half the time, they think they are having a heart-attack, because there is often no envirnomental trigger for the reaction. Just all of a sudden BANG! their heart is racing and their breathing in gasps as if they were being attacked or in a car crash or whatever.

Now, some people are able of excercise some degree of consciosu control over what are normally involuntary reactions, but it isn't simple and it isn't total. Part of the treatment for panic disorders is usually trying to teach the patient breathing and relaxation excercises in order to alleviate the symptoms, but it's not so easy as just deciding not to feel threatened. You may know that you are perfectly safe on a roller-coaster, but your BODY still reacts like it is in danger, and you'd need to be meditating your ass off to make it do otherwise.

What trainer said about control issues is true, and is part and parcel of the nature of anxiety disorders, especially Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. One of the classic signs of OCD is the attempt to prepare for any eventuality, the desire to try to control all the variables. That is why they will check to make sure the stove is turned off 20 times, or will repeat ritualistic behavior which they have come to associate with their desired outcomes. To them, the order of the brushes on the bathroom sink can be as dire an emergency as the house being on fire.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 7:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Traineraz,

An undergrad degree means nothing (most people realise this a few years after they have finished one). To think it means something other than this is arrogance.

My undergrad degree is in Geology but that doesn't mean I could decipher drilling cores with anything resembling accuracy.
Traineraz
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 3:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hob -

Thanks for the lecture, but I specifically stated that eating disorders are an illness, particularly a mental illness, rather than something over which the victim has conscious control.

My undergrad degree is in psychology, I am well aware of the nature of mental illness.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 2:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Traineraz,

The distinction between what is mental and what is physical is governed not by fact but by cultural prejudice.

If someone has an illness that is related to the function of their brain we brand it mental whereas if someone has an ilness realted to their kidney, heart, lung, pancreas etc. we brand it physical. When people have an illness that affects the brain many people seem to think that they can just 'snap out of it' or that they can choose to make their brain operate differently. If your brain is suffering from an illness then choosing to make your brain operate differently is like choosing to make your kidney operate differently when it has an illness.

You simply do not have this choice. Because our society tends to associate the brain and the 'mind' as one and the same it is easy to think of those suffering from disorders of the brain as being weak-willed. As Blackjack has already said, the brain is an organ which controls virtually all aspects of our life. If there was a problem with the brain then it can cause the body to react in unusual ways. These are symptoms that the brain needs 'fixing'.

The distinction the public has between what is 'mental' and what is 'physical' illness is based on ignorance. The idea that people can just snap out of depression or anorexia or the like is rubbish. Drugs can often do the trick so this in itself is proof that these are physical illnesses that can be sorted out by physical means. If you doubt this then find someone who has suffered from any of these illnesses and become well again. Many of these people were of the opinion that people could just 'snap out of it' until of course they themselves came down with such an illness, now they know better.

On another point I once had a friend at university who always insisted that psyhcotropic drugs could not cause him to see things or act in an odd manner because "he had a strong will and its all mind over matter, if you don't want to be affected by these drugs then you wont be". Then he dropped an LSD tab and his opinion changed. He realised he could not just 'snap out of it' if he wished to.

Hobgoblin
Nolamour
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gotcha!

That makes sense.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nola -

A lot of eating disorders (including OVEReating) are the result of unresolved control issues. The person with the illness (for it is a mental illness) feels a lack of control in other areas of life, and exercises control in one of the few areas s/he can.

This is the same foundation for such things as self-mutilation (cutting, burning, etc.). Usually VERY unhappy people.
Nolamour
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OK, sounds good, but when you say the body is threatened...Is the threat not a choice? Can't you choose to be threatened or not? This is mental ability, no? Unless, of course, it's physical.

I do see what your saying, though, about the fine line between psychological and the psychiatric.
_Blackjack
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

It still seems to be a psychosomatic phenomenon. You have to have some mental issues to consciously avoid food at a rate that is quite detrimental to one’s health.



You seem to be forgetting that the brain is an organ, and it is the organ responsible for regulating appetite. There are NUMEROUS medical conditions which lead to loss of appetite, and just because some of them are diseases of the brain does not mean that they are "made up".

Here's a little insight: when the body is under stress, when it is threatened, it puts various non-vital systems on standby, including appetite and digestion, in order to direct energy to fighting or escaping or solving the problem. This is all well and good most of the time, since the sources of stress are usually short-lived and you can go back to eating later.

For people with dysfunctions of this arousal system, e.g., people with anxiety disorders, that switch can get stuck. Their brain shuts off the chemical signals which usually tell the body to seek food. Moreover, there is some indication that avoiding food actually EASES the symptoms of the anxiety, by reducing the intake of the nutrients needed to produce certain neurotransmitters.

Like I said, there are obvious cultural and psychological issues tied up with anorexia nervosa, but it is very hard to draw the line between the psychological and the psychiatric. Even very complex behaviors can often be traced to specific biological foundations.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

LOL

Afghanistan, perhaps you've heard of it. The U.S. blew portions of it up recently.

Before the Taliban, their largest commercial crop was opium poppies. :)
Larsbogart
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"but not being an Afghan opium farmer,"

Dont you hate that you have to watch what you say nowadays?
Like I dont even know where A----n is.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You could well be right, the only thing I'd read was about slitting the stems and collecting the sap . . . but not being an Afghan opium farmer, I'm not as well-schooled in this area as one might expect. I will defer to your greater experience in this matter, and stick to writing poetic tributes to the beauty of Kallisti. :)

Wait, I'm not very good at that, either. Perhaps I should just work out, design gardens, and drink green stuff. I can handle all of those nicely.
Larsbogart
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Just huff man..."
Vintage: with lead.

"So are opium poppies (legal, not a wonderful grey-green foliage plant), as long as you're not slitting the stems and collecting that sweet, sweet sap."
Im pretty sure you wait until the leaves fall off, stop watering, wait for the star to invert, and slit the POD [about two weeks]. Right?
Nolamour
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

No Kidding? Well, that's news to me...and It has to be a created disease. It still seems to be a psychosomatic phenomenon. You have to have some mental issues to consciously avoid food at a rate that is quite detrimental to one’s health. Yes, society has a big part to do with the need to be accepted with the way you look. I guess it’s a denial issue as well. Look at extreme drug use; Anonymous programs say that the …ism is mental, physical, and spiritual…Being addicted to the point of death.
_Blackjack
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

I mean what other country makes up their own disease - Anorexia?



Interestingly, recent studies have found that anorexia is almost as common in other cultures, including ones where plump women are favored. It doesn't tend to be accompanied by the same kind of body-image issues in these places, but you still find a similar proportion of people, especially women, who engage in a compulsive avoidance of food. It appears to be a specific manifestation of a form of anxiety or obsessive-compulsive disorder which, while certainly exaccerbated by our culture's unrealistic standard of female beauty, may well be rooted in biology.

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