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Archive through June 07, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Archive Thru June 2002 » Daniel Pearl Video. » Archive through June 07, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Verawench
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

What the world needs now....

headlessbeauty
Bjacques
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

No, Bush seized the opportunity. Three-letter agencies may be devious as hell, but they're still government agencies. The guy on somethingawful.com put it best. The post office and the IRS screw up all the time but the spooks are perfect? These are the guys who missed 1989 and the Soviet collapse of 1991, and didn't catch the Unabomber until his brother turned him in. And they couldn't kill Castro. MKULTRA and ARTICHOKE are more their speed; stick to screwing over ordinary citizens because terrorists can shoot back. The FBI and the CIA *hate* each other.

Hussein wasn't involved in this one either. Anyone smart enough to stay on top this long knows terrorists make lousy bedfellows. Bush's half-assed, slap-happy brand of diplomacy is Hussein's best asset.

Vote Democrat. Put a little spine in the opposition. And when war talk is in the air, scoff as if your life depends on it, because it does.

Too bad about Pearl. The dice came up snake-eyes and the game was fixed.
Destiny
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree with you - don't even get me started, I'm still shaking from the implications of Comrad Bush's speech last night.

Do you think the Queen will take us back? We promise to be good and pay our taxes.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Destiny,

Well they would probably not have pulled the first 9/11 successfully if your security services had been doing what they were supposed to be doing, i.e looking after the security of US citizens.

The FBI inform the CIA that suspected Middle-eastern terrorists have suddenly enlisted for flying lessons in the USA. What does the CIA do? Nothing. What does the FBI do? Nothing. And then they start burying files.

I suspect that certain parties took the decision that to lose a few US civilians in a terrorist attack (granted they probably didn't realise how big the attack would be, the terrorists probably didn't bank on the 2nd tower collapsing) would be a reasonable price to pay in order to justify getting out their and sorting out the Taliban, Sadam Hussain and just about anyone whose interests differed from the USA. Lets face it in wartime many numbers of soldiers are sacrificed by their own side for strategic benefit. Why should you we civilians to be treated any differently?

Now the US government have the excuse to attack anyone they like. All they have to say is that it's all part of the 'war against terrorism'.

What happened on September 11th was a 'Crime against Humanity' and should be treated as such. Those parties responsible should be brought to justice. Those within the US security services who failed to act should also be brought to justice (no matter how senior). To use the language of war only inflames the situation and is used to justify attacking any regime regardless or not whether they had any involvement or not in the September 11th crime. The 'War against terrorism' rhetoric uses the deaths of the individuals who perished on Sept 11th as an excuse to kill others and that is despicable.

Hobgoblin
Perruche_Verte
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 8:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"There is no country more generous."

That depends what you mean by "more generous". The US does give more in dollars than any other country right now. (Japan actually gave more, until their economy hit the skids in 2001.) However, US aid makes up a smaller percentage of its gross domestic product than is given by many other countries.

http://www.oecd.org/pdf/M00029000/M00029445.pdf

"Americans are also the most self-critical citizens in existence."

We have a unique capacity to fuck things up at this point in history. That calls for a certain degree of self-examination.
Chevalier
Posted on Friday, June 7, 2002 - 7:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In the mid-to-late 20th century, America's Big Idea was "containment". Containment was espoused by the Domino Theory. The Domino Theory stemmed from what happened in eastern and central Europe (not to mention Western European elections) immediately after World War II ended.

One hundred and twenty years before, the Monroe Doctrine stemmed from another Big Idea:

"The American continents...are henceforth not to be considered as subjects for future colonization by any European powers ... We should consider any attempt on their part to extend their [political] system to any portion of this hemisphere as dangerous to our peace and safety ..."

Our Big Ideas are reactions. Today's Big Idea is to smoke out the enemy from wherever he lies and to go for the jugular, the Big Bosses: Saddam Hussein and company. It's a direct reaction to 9/11, and is separate from the good works that the U.S. does around the world. (There is no country more generous. You wouldn't believe how much U.S. money and manpower goes into helping countries and regions around the world. Americans are also the most self-critical citizens in existence. This speaks well of them, I think!)
Nolamour
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 11:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hell, if you look at the big picture...China is the frontrunner for World Power. Talk about lying and waiting; its only a matter of time before the power is overtaken. They are the largest in numbers and their technology is there. They just keep growing and building and we are running around worried about whos mad at the US and why. I say stand tall and carry a big stick!

Our technology, our level of education, our work ethic and drive, our healthy population. All of these could be used as a force for good, to help other humans.

Absolutely, Education, as Ive stated on other threads, is the key...We just have to be able to teach, and discipline is essential. Due to other issues...Discipline can't be achieved in certain areas of the states.
Destiny
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"They" know we can't fight a war on multiple fronts, they want us to become seriously involved overseas and then they'll pull another 9/11 on us. They're patient and they're waiting to gang-bang us.
Nolamour
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not far fetched...It seems now, almost inevitable. Just keep a good bottle around and enjoy while you can.
Nascentvirion
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'd have to agree with you Marc, Bush is a bad president, his father was as well. Bush wants war, because he knows if he can overthrow Iraq it means more oil for America. He is looking out for his business friends and not the American people. His attitude is pissing off other countries which makes us look even more arrogent than people already think we are. Bush may damn near bring us closer to World War 3, especially if we go to war with Iraq, who knows what Saddam has up his sleeve. We are pretty sure he has nuclear capabilites so whats to stop him from sliding one of those nuclear bomb to Bin Laden or some other fanatic who hates America. We wouldnt know until after it happend. Bush being the cowboy he is would be blow Iraq off the globe. All for a cup of Black Gold or Texas Tea. My rant may seem pretty far fetched, but it could happen....
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There's nothing I can do to help him.
Silent_Rich
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

but, of course, we choose otherwise.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I know Marc- it was hyperbole.

I just hear the 'nuke the whole area' kind of stuff, I see Bush now targeting fucking Cuba, of all the places to pick... it produces anger and despair.

Are those who govern that lackwitted? Do they have drool-cups on air force one?

Or do they get it, and not care? Are they just pretending to believe the horseshit they sell us every day?

Its hard not to embrace conspiracy theories involving Freemasons, Aliens and/or the Elder Gods when contemplating it.

Why can't we just not be so rich, so we don't oppress people?

Our technology, our level of education, our work ethic and drive, our healthy population. All of these could be used as a force for good, to help other humans.

We could stand astride the world, a colossus holding not a sword and shield, but a plowshare and an olive branch.

America *could* be known as the place where all those incredibly helpful, friendly, good folks live. That one that sent us food last year and helped our university. That one that helped us run free elections when we asked, and didn't bat an eye when we decided to pick the communists.

We could, in short, be the good guys.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Can I let the Skeptic out? Thanks.

It's the U.S. government who has released the tape.

The U.S. has killed more civilians in Afghanistan than U.S. citizens were killed in 9/11. (As per CNN, not Al Qaeda)

They want to kill some more (Iraq, Philippines, you name it.) Now, 9/11 was too generic, too vague for people used to special effects.

So let's release a tape showing the particularly gruesome death of an individual, even if the murderers are not related to the Talibans, Al Qaeda or OBL.

It works. Some posts here express a wish to "nuke the whole area" or words to that effect.

Guys, let's remember that Daniel Pearl was not killed while attending a Rotary Club meeting in Spokane, WA but while meeting with some Extremely Mean Motherfuckers in fucking Pakistan.

I think our feelings are being not abused, but manipulated.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 6:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

rabid,

you're wrong. I think many thinking Americans, including myself, feel that we have, to some degree, brought this upon ourselves. We need a change and we need it now. Greed can no longer be the force that drives this country's leadership.
In the short time that Bush has been president,
things have gone from bad to worse. I fear for the future.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, I quite agree- attack those I love and you die.

That is why these people are trying to kill us. They feel the same way, but nobody around this stupid fucking overfed crapfest we call America seems to grasp that we have done anything to provoke this.
Wormwood
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I saw a video the other night on the History Channel about the bombing of Dresdan. Thousands of old people and children burned to death. Flames so hot building were melted and steets burned away. Hurricane speed winds composed of flames consumed everything in their path.

Did I feel sorry for all those people: Yes
Could Hitler have prevented it all by not starting WWII: Yes
Did that video transform all Nazi's victims of undeserved violence: No

As Don Walsh used to often say on this forum "some people just deserve to die".

How many starving children in refugee camps could have been feed if that cargo ship full of weapons the Isrealis busted a few months back had been filled with millions of dollars in food instead.

The palistinians send 16 year old children to die in car bombs for the same reason the Japanese sent them to die in Kamakazi planes. They make cheap and effective weapons, and there are no shortages of fanatics willing to do it. Most important they belive if they kill enough they will win the struggle. They were offered over 80% of the territory they are demaning during the Clinton's Camp David meeting and they turned it down. They do think they will win.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 6:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rabid,

I see and understand both sides of the argument. But, when death comes knockin', I'm defending myself. And I know it will be ugly. All the intellectualizing in the world, ain't gonna matter when someone lays their hand on my wife or daughter. I consider myself a pacifist, but I guess I'm still a slave to the reptilian brain.
Viewing the Pearl video, my response was visceral: I was angry, appalled and wanting vengeance. I hate when I feel these emotions, But, they are vital to survival. I hope I'm never
put into a situation where these emotions are the ones that are driving me.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This was a brutal act.

The question I have been asking myself is how brutal was what we did before?

We cut off no heads- we did, however, in a general way aid in keeping many places in the middle east down economically, fucking over their rights to self-determination and generally being assholes. All for our own economic gain.

Consider what it means when there is not enough to eat. People die who wouldn't have. Consider what it means that no, son, I'm sorry but we can't afford the medicine. Your sister is going to die.

Our meddling kills. Not to say that it would have been wonderful without us- but we meddled, things went to shit, we are an obvious target for the blame.

There is no blood when I starve you to death- but you are still dead.

Economics is not a shallow motivation. Economics means do your people live or die, in a very real way.

If you are about to flame me for considering the two acts on a par, consider the motives behind the many deaths in the American Revolutionary war.
Albertcamus
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 5:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I saw the "propaganda video" that was bad enough,I was struck with the overwilming feeling that we should nuke that entire region immediately.but I know I must resist that thought.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The video really hit me hard. I have tried to understand and even sympathize with the anger that the terrorists feel toward Americans. I have felt anger myself toward the USA. But, this video really shows us the depths to which humans have fallen. In so many depictions of war or terrorism,
the victims are anonymous, bodies strewn about in
streets, cafes, buildings. In the case of the Pearl video, we see a human face, a sweet looking man named Daniel Pearl. He could be a neighbor.
Someone you have a drink with at the local pub.
He's sombody you can relate to. To see him murdered reminds us, that in these times, anyone one of us can be a casualty of war. I knew 2 people who died in the World Trade Center. It was devastating. But, I know people outside of New York City who say that they were not emotionally affected by the Twin Tower tragedy. I found it hard to believe.
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

But look, Marc: At the same time, some pro-terrorist video jockeys could put together footage of Afghani women and children with their faces blown off, or of "Talibani" adolescents being bayoneted by Northern Alliance Afghans, and create a video tape.

Many people on the other side of the ideological fence would see it and, in their view, "have their eyes and heart opened to the reality and horror of what [their] enemy is capable of. In that case, [the deaths shown in the video] would not have been in vain."

You see what I mean?
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

And how much blood money is this video selling for? What will the market bear for such a masterpiece?
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hate to say it, but the video may be the very thing that some people need to see in order to knock them out of their complacency. Maybe people, who in another instance might say "cool", will instead have their eyes and heart opened to the reality and horror of what our enemy is capable of. In that case, Pearl's death would not have been in vain.
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, June 6, 2002 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Incidentally, RON (or Ronald) Pearl is a classical music guitarist. He's recorded some duets with Julian Gray.

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