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Archive through June 08, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Introducing Rudi » Archive through June 08, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"But I don't accept attempts at rationalization. Humans can easily survive and thrive on a diet that does not require the death of an animal."

Better kick your own ass out onto the street then, because every argument you've given looks like a rationalization for your own emotional squeamishness to me.

If you have any interest in logic, then perhaps you appreciate the import of a counterexample. For instance, I say 'all swans are white' you say 'Oh yeah' and pull out a black swan, and my generalization is shot to hell. Well, the arguments for veganism get ruined by just such a counterexample:

Human beings absolutely need vitamin B12 in quantities that are not available from plant sources. Period. Without sufficient B12, human beings suffer serious neurological damage which manifests in symptoms similar to Parkinson's disease and schizophrenia. Adequate quantities of B12 are not available in any plant sources whatsoever, yet they are abundant in almost all animal foods. The only non-animal sources of good quantities of B12 are certain strains of yeast, bacteria, and mold. This leads us to the following conclusion: you are either

A) Uncontrollable smacking yourself in the head as you type, and trying to cut through the FBI-space alien radio chatter you are receiving through your tooth fillings.

B) Well stocked with petri dishes to avert the occurence of A)

C) An inadvertant, but nevertheless big, hypocrite.

If you take a vitamin pill or eat fortified foods to get your B12, do you know what went into it? Did the B12 come from yeast cultures? Did you research it?

K.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Destiny -

Nearly all cultures in the world eat meat or animal products of one sort or another. (Not a justification, simply a statment that the eating of animal products is not a Western cultural trait, but common amongst nearly all humans.) I have no guilt over eating meat; humans are omnivores. We're animals, just like lions and tigers and bears (oh, my!). Should we kill off all the lions and tigers and bears because they eat other animals? Force them to adopt vegan diets? There wouldn't be many surviving lions, tigers, or bears. (Or wolves, condors, eagles, hawks, big fishies, medium fishies, not-too-small fishies, spiders, preying mantises, songbirds, chickens (they eat bugs), coyotes, snakes, Eskimos (oops, they're people who live almost entirely on whale meat, when outsiders aren't trying to force them to eat McDonald's instead), dogs, cats, Gila monsters, or one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eaters . . . ) But wait, then all the deer and bunnies and squirrels and other critters would reproduce unchecked, overpopulate their territories, and starve to death. Guess we'd have to kill off bunches of them just to preserve the species, huh? But then what to do with all that meat? Fertilizer? Chipmunk jerky, anyone?

I also see no disconnect between wanting to protect an animal with whom one has developed an emotional bond, while eating an animal with whom one has not developed such a bond. Farm Rule #1: Don't name your food.

I do try to buy from sources where the animals are not horribly mistreated prior to slaughter. Being human and of purportedly greater intellect than the critters I eat, I do not wish for them to be tortured. I don't eat veal, I buy rBST-free milk and butter, "cage-free" eggs, and I try to buy free-range critters when I can afford it. Buffalo instead of beef, too. Less likely to be from the high-intensity feed lots.

Finally, BJ, when I kill a bug, I do it swiftly. I don't believe in torturing the creatures just because they can't follow the simple rule of "stay outside where you belong." They probably can't read the sign. Strangely, most of the itsy bitsy spiders in my house have learned to follow my agreement with them: "Stay by the ceiling where I can't reach you easily, and I won't squish you. Come down the wall, and you go splat." I think I'm breeding a race of ceiling-dwelling spiders.
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

BJ - I have no qualms with those that eat meat out of necessity, but it's not a necessity for much of ther world anymore. All I'm trying to say is that it's completely illogical to love and protect Fluffy but then be okay with eating Bessie. The average civilized person wasn't raised on a farm and has no clue what some cow went through before finally ending up on your dinner plate.

If people are honest enough to admit that they just don't care, I can accept that. But I don't accept attempts at rationalization. Humans can easily survive and thrive on a diet that does not require the death of an animal. People continue eating meat because they haven't really thought about it or because they just don't care; but that's hard to admit.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

That'd be why I said "*more* balanced," and that was in reference to the amino acid profile itself. As a vegetarian, you no doubt know that you need to consume a variety of legumes and grains in order to obtain a "complete" protein (26 different amino acid, if memory serves) profile. Only some are in legumes, the others in grains. All are in animal proteins.

Everything I have read indicates that animal proteins are MORE readily processed by the human body. Protein recommendations for vegans are HIGHER than for omnivores, because less is thoroughly digested.

Finally, skim moocow milk and chickie egg WHITES do not have saturated fat or cholesterol (in any appreciable amount). Skim milk and egg whites being fat and cholesterol sources is a common misconception among those who turn to veganism "to be healthy." I've had a number of people tell me that my daily quart of skim milk will give me a heart attack!

Instead, it gives me strong teeth and nails. 31 next week, and not one cavity . . . and women envy my nails, which serve wonderfully as paint scrapers when needed.

I also gave generally-accepted dietary guidelines for calorie sources (fat and protein, anyway, with the remainder being from carbohydrates). If someone considered Kentucky Fried Chicken every night to be a healthy diet, I'm sure we would both beg to differ!
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Animal protein doesn't naturally come in a "balanced proportions"; there is almost always a relatively high amount of saturated fat that accompanies the protein"

He was referring to the relative proportions of amino acids that make up the protein. The presence of fat is irrelevant. Moreover, wild animals are rarely overfat. Even moreover, saturated fat is not the bogeyman, anyway, in moderation it is a healthful foodstuff.

"Animal protein is generally high quality but it's not easily assimilated by the human body, it takes quite a bit to break it down into something you can use."

Absolute bullshit. I generally eat 2-3 oz. of animal protein every 3-5 hours during times while I'm losing fat and maintaining or gaining muscle. I can tell you from my hunger states, and the change in my body composition (i.e., I'm burning more calories than I eat) that that shit is burned up and gone in no time.

"My dad was a weight trainer almost his entire life so I'm familiar with the general nutritional mindset of the "industry" and my opinion is that the facts are frequently manipulated to promote appearance rather than health."

Your ignorance is showing once again. If you're referring to bodybuilding, no one ever said it was about health, it's about getting big muscles and having low body fat. Guess what? Guys who subsist on bean sprouts don't win competitions. Likewise, if you're referring to Weightlifting or Powerlifting, these are sports - the point is to win, not avoid heart disease at 85. Once again, though, the frizzy-haired wheatgrass eaters don't often stand on the winners podium. The plain fact is, if you want to succeed at strength sports or bodybuilding, animal foods are your friend - being a vegetarian is either a hindrance, a royal pain in the ass, or both.

K.
_Blackjack
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

I have never killed a roach with glee, so there, theory flawed.



Try it. It's deeply satisfying. You can feel millions of years of natural selection surging through your veins.

I prefer to immolate them with my pocket propane torch, because the hot air escaping thier bodies sounds like a tiny scream. I am also convinced the smell of burning roack-fless serves as a deterrant for other roaches, since, while I did have a fucking awful time with the carpet beetles, mine is the only apartment in the building which is virtually roach-free...

My friends used to staple them alive to the wall, like crucifixes lining the road to Rome, as a warning to others...
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>> Animal proteins (which you can get from yummy skim moocow milk or cage-free chickie eggs) are simply easier for humans to digest, and typically in more balanced proportions.

Animal protein doesn't naturally come in a "balanced proportions"; there is almost always a relatively high amount of saturated fat that accompanies the protein, and so you have a questionable cost/balance ratio. Animal protein is generally high quality but it's not easily assimilated by the human body, it takes quite a bit to break it down into something you can use.

Of course, there are different schools of thought regarding nutrition and we could go back and forth citing studies to support our individual point of view. (Anatomist and I had our first lovers quarrel on a similar thread a while back.) My dad was a weight trainer almost his entire life so I'm familiar with the general nutritional mindset of the "industry" and my opinion is that the facts are frequently manipulated to promote appearance rather than health. But I'll admit that there is quite a bit of BS in the "vegetarian industry" as well, it's all about money.

These type of threads are frustrating because it takes a lot of typing to get across something that I could say in 15 seconds if we were having a chat over a beer.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Multiply this pile of skulls by a few quintillion, and that's where we're all standing right now...

More specifically, this is a small portion of the cost behind getting decent railroad service to Denver...


buffaloskulls
Tortainglese
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

BJ- I have never killed a roach with glee, so there, theory flawed.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the origin of this thread was Rudi, my new kitten. In case anyone cares (and I doubt that you do) Max and Rudi are both rolling around on the floor playing with toys. They will not yet share a toy and lots of hissing is still going on. I stayed home tonight to baby sit them and make sure Max didnt beat up Rudi. It is a hard transition for both of them.
_Blackjack
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

And Jews and Blacks seem stupider to a KKK member.



Oh, come now! The difference between any two humans is many many orders of magnitude smaller than the difference between a human and a chicken, and even a racist would admit that.

(BTW, any good Klansman knows the Jews are smart. He just thinks theyre devious and greedy and secretly control the banks or some such shit...)


Quote:

We love kittens, puppies and fluffy bunnies and are outraged when they're mistreated; but in other countries, they're just food.



I don't think anybody has claimed that this is logical or that our preference for particular animals is rooted in any absolute moral value. It's an emotional reaction. I would protect my cats with my life, and would probably stop anyone trying to gratuitously hurt a cat in my presence, but I have no qualms with those cultures who see them as food.


Quote:

The average person doesn't keep cows and chickens as pets so they don't get to see that these animals have individual personalities too.



Y'see, that's where you are wrong. For most of history, and to this day in much of the world, people have lived very closely with their livestock and gotten to know them, even become fond of them, but been perfectly willing to chop them up when it came time to eat. I think that seperation from the everyday realities of life and death has more lead people anthropomorphizing animals and universalizing their emotional attachments. Little Fluffy doesn't seem so sweet when he has just ripped the head off a baby bunny for fun, and you're a lot less prone to think of Ol' Bossy as a member of the family when your kids are hungry.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

" If you aren't growing your own vegetables and living in a wind-powered dugout somewhere"

Every day I live like I do now, I want to do that more.

I don't have the resources yet... but I am seriously considering getting some land maybe with an old house. Subsistence farming, get a job writing somewhere (since I could do it remotely) or making artsy craftsy things to sell.

"Don't go up to Old Man Rabid's place. I hear he eats kids!" "But we lost our ball in there..."
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm with you, BJ. We're all in somebody's way right now... using stuff up, enjoying the fruits of someone else's hardship. On the one hand, you could become a hermit, feel guilty for existing, apologize, shrink, try to disappear. On the other hand, you could see the gigantic pile of bloody corpses upon which you stand as a charge to make the best of what you've inhereted and strive to live with gusto.

K.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree about arthropods. Fuck the arthropods. I kind of dig spiders, but mostly because they eat bugs, but they better not get in my way. Any errant arthropod that crosses my path can expect a quick and brutal death. I live in Florida now, and you've got to beat back those little bastards just to have a few square feet to live in. The variety of wasps alone is staggering.

I don't understand how people find 'shellfish' appealing. Get those big red bug carcasses away from me. Step on 'em. Smash em. I'll eat the meat, but just get that big tentacled exoskeleton far away from my visual field. I'd probably eat out a leper's ass before I'd suck the guts out of the front end of a crawdad. When they showed that female lobster "carrying berries" in IN THE BEDROOM, I nearly puked up a bellyfull of diet coke onto the stadium seat in front of me.

K.
_Blackjack
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Remember, Trader Joe's (and other stores, I'm sure) have "cage free" eggs (free range or at least not stacked 8 to a record crate)available;



Also keep in mind that there are no regulations defining who may use terms like "free-range" and "cage-free" on eggs, and very few regulations on their use on meat. The labels are no guarantee that animals didn't suffer.

If I had any real empathy towards chickens, I would give up eggs before I gave up their meat. Layers are FAR more poorly treated than broilers and fryers.

On the subject of McDonalds, they really have gone to a great deal more trouble to use meat suppliers whose treatment of their animals is more humane than is required by law, if that sort of thing matters to you. Me, I long ago gave up trying to mask the stench of blood which permeates all aspects of life in western society. If you aren't growing your own vegetables and living in a wind-powered dugout somewhere, animals and people are suffering and dying for your convenience somewhere.
_Blackjack
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Pro-gun, vegetarian, anti-affirmative action, pro-legalization of drugs and prostitution, anti-abortion but pro-choice, economics/accounting major,



Spunds like a party-line Libertarian to me...
_Blackjack
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

what I can't comprehend at all is picking the live lobster out of the tank at the restaurant and stating to the waiter "Yes, kill it for me." I cant even look at those tanks, like a death row for lobsters. Why hasnt that been outlawed? It is so barbaric. Really fucking sick.



Jeez, man, they're just giant bugs. Have you never killed a roach with glee? Mammals, birds, even reptiles may have their charms, but arthropods deserve to die. As painfully as possible. And if they are tasty with drawn butter, more's the better!

Any sympathy I had for bugs went out the window when I had to deal with a carpet-beetle infestation...


On the other hand, I am re-considering my position on octopodes, since recent studies have shown them to be very intellegent. Of course, if they're so smart, why haven't they figured out how too not taste so damn good on sushi?
Tortainglese
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think I want the mayo more than the tuna.

Hmmm....garden design, that IS interesting.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Being a fitness trainer type (transitioning to the more creative world of garden design), I've had some nutrition training . . . In most cases, food cravings (aside from that chocolate thing) are based in malnutrition. If you were craving fishies, chances are you weren't getting certain nutrients (perhaps certain amino acids) in correct proportion in a vegan diet.

Animal proteins (which you can get from yummy skim moocow milk or cage-free chickie eggs) are simply easier for humans to digest, and typically in more balanced proportions. No hunting for the right bean or grain for dinner to complement that which you ate at lunchtime. :)

Trainer sez, "Eat em all! (Just stick to the lean cuts and be sure only 15-20% of your total daily calories are from protein, and 25-30% from fats.)"
Tortainglese
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

what I can't comprehend at all is picking the live lobster out of the tank at the restaurant and stating to the waiter "Yes, kill it for me." I cant even look at those tanks, like a death row for lobsters. Why hasnt that been outlawed? It is so barbaric. Really fucking sick.

I accept that vegetarianism isnt for everyone. But we can at least support industries that treat animals with some respect for their natural lives, such as free range, like Mr. Rabid says.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Most of the fish I eat is from the ocean (not a tank) so it got to get it's fishy shot at life...
Tortainglese
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Since childhood I have been a vegetarian. For 3 years I managed to be vegan, which was hard. Some grocery stores carry vegan baked goods, such as Whole Foods Warehouse and Fresh Fields. Sometimes I fall off the wagon and eat a tuna sandwich, my only temptation. I eat out nearly every day in ordinary restaurants and have no problems. I never buy regular commercial eggs and try my best to avoid them in restuarants. The benefits to your health, the environment and the salvation of thousands of animals are the worth the change. I aspire to being vegan again, but currently am too weak to manage it. Can't stand soy milk in my coffee! BLECK! oh, the woes of modern life...
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"A - No hysterics involved, I didn't associate you with the KKK, I just noted a similarity in the subjective opinions of you and your ex-homies (kidding!)"

That sounds like something a homophobic, racist, child-molesting terrorist would've said.
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

HEY - What's with the editing function? Can anyone edit?
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

A - No hysterics involved, I didn't associate you with the KKK, I just noted a similarity in the subjective opinions of you and your ex-homies (kidding!)

As for left-wing? I'll admit that I've moved much farther left than I used to be, but I'd say that my left/right tendencies balance out. Pro-gun, vegetarian, anti-affirmative action, pro-legalization of drugs and prostitution, anti-abortion but pro-choice, economics/accounting major, musician. Man, I'm screwed up, huh?

You're not foolish enough to actually believe that only the left has a manual of dirty tricks?
Pikkle
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 4:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'd more liken you to a card carrying member of the UVF... but that's just me.

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