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Archive through June 09, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Introducing Rudi » Archive through June 09, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Marccampbell
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You gotta love the evolution of this thread...
or the de-evolution.
Marccampbell
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 2:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

pikkle,

Rudi tastes like chicken.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 2:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pikkle,

What if you're hungry for Rudi?
Pikkle
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

no... it's never crossed my mind and it never will... I eat what I'm hungry for and that's final... and it won't be Rudi. End of discussion.
Marccampbell
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The only meat dishes that I miss are slow-smoked barbecue.

comeon pikkle, don't you think its logical to go from loving your pets to discussing not eating them?
Pikkle
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

and this has what to do with someone's new pet?
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Very true Marc. The problem I think is that most Western meals consist of meat being central with vegetables simply as an accompaniment without much thought to their preparation.

Dishes from other cultures have used vegetables as part of a dish and even when mixed with meat in a dish the vegetables still play an equal role in the dish. Therefore if the meat is removed the dish still stands on its own, its just that one of the many flavours has been removed. As a result you can get fabulous Indian, Thai, Chinese etc. vegetable dishes without the restaurant even having to go out of their way to create a 'vegetarian' option. An Italian once said to me that there are hardly any 'vegetarians' in Italy. Well, whether that's true or not, they eat a hell of a lot of non-meat in Italy dishes and there's never a choice problem for a vegetarian in an Italian restaurant.

Meat-eaters often say to me "What do you use instead of meat in your meal?" as if a meal always has to be a slab of meat (or meat substitute), with a portion of starchy filler vegetable and couple of portions of other vegetables on the side. It's as they don't consider that vegetables can be extremely tasty in their own right.

Hobgoblin
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

As to the implication made in the archived thread (I think by Traineraz) that it is hypocritical to care anything about the fate of dogs and cats when people eat food from intensive farming. Well it is better to care about the fate of some animals than the fate of no animals at all. Yes, it is more humane to eat food from organic farming sources but people who eat meat that is not from these sources are not all heartless bastards.

As for Rabid's question about eating eggs, I think it's already been said but go for free range eggs and cook prepare your own food from fresh ingredients. Ready-meals are so full of shit, people just wouldn't eat then if they knew what was in these meals. Cooking your own food doesn't really take that long, you get a delicious meal and it's enjoyable cooking it, a sort of relaxation therapy.

I'm also horrified to find out that animal shelters in the states put down healthy animals after a couple of days. In the UK, the RSPCA and Battersea Dogs homes keep these animals until they can be re-homed. You're also much more likely to get a healthy animal from these shelters than from a pet shop or breeder because these organisations are run, not for profit, but from a desire to help animals. Animals from these sources will have already been innoculated and neutered. I am regularly horrified by the ignorance of animal welfare and lack of care shown by pet shops, but then all they usually care about is the profit they can make from selling an animal.

Hobgoblin
Marccampbell
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

another misconception about vegetarianism is that food without meat is boring. Its actually the opposite. So many of the world's great cuisines
consist of many wildly sensual vegetarian dishes:
Indian, Mexican, Thai and Italian offer a large variety of delicious non-meat dishes. The real trick, for me, in keeping veggies interesting is in the uses of spices and sauces.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

There are many reasons for being a vegetarian and there are several kinds of vegetarians but anyone who eats fish is quite simply NOT a vegetarian of any sort.

People can subsist healthily without animal produce but it is difficult to do so and requires a lot of thought and effort. It is possible to be a healthy Vegan but it requires a lot of effort.

Most vegetarians do eat animal products in the form of milk and dairy products. There is nothing at all contradictory in this. Many (probably most) vegetarians are vegetarians becuase they believe that animals should not have to die so that they can eat well. There is nothing wrong therefore with using dairy products.

A 'vegetarian' who eats fish is quite simply not a vegetarian. I am staggered at the common ignorance amongst non-vegetarian about this. At parties, and other ocassions where food is present, whenever I say I'm a vegetarian or ask if there's any vegetarian food I nearly always get told "there's some fish dishes over there" or something similar. It's as if people think that fish are plants, or something less than animal, simply because meat-eaters use the term 'Meat' to refer to flesh from land-dwelling animals and 'Fish' is something completely different.

There is a common misconception that vegetarians go about trying to push their views on meat-eaters. On the contrary, I get really fed up with constantly having to defend my position from attack whenever the ocassion arises that I have to tell meat-eaters I'm that a vegetarian(i.e. if I'm offered a meat dish etc.) It's as if they feel threatened or uncomfortable by the fact that someone doesn't meat (I mean it's not as if it has a direct effect on them). Then you get them pronouncing that Man most definitely needs to eat meat to live. Well I don't and I'm perfectly fit and healthy. Even with living proof sitting in front of them they still insist that Man needs to eat meat to live (it's as if they don't want to consider the possibility that they are eating meat not out of necessity but out of taste preference).

I simply believe that it is wrong that another living thing should have to cough up his life for the sake of my taste-buds. I believe that by eating meat prepared for me I am involving myself in the process of slaughter and I don't believe I should be involved in this. I get fed up having to justify this position to people who seem to take offence at it.

Hobgoblin
Destiny
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

All posts are "I" statements, that goes without saying. Unless someone cites a study, statistic, or is quoting another person, it's safe to assume that their post is prefaced with "In my opinion..."

I disagreed with a statement that Traineraz made and then you jumped in with your standard "fuzzy-haired" rant. You didn't even present any facts, you were just being contrary. You didn't preface anything with "I believe", you just spat your opinion as if it were gospel and then you labeled anyone who disabgrees with you as "ignorant". You won't even concede that here are legitimate alternative points of view. And then you chastise Traineraz for using "weightlifting" in the socially acceptable, general sense of the term. You can't score a scientific or logical point, so you resort to subterfuge. If I did that, you would call me on it in a second. The difference seems to be that I respect your point of view while you seem to operate under the assumption that your views are divine revelation that need no substantiation.

I've consistently acknowledged there are different points of view and that the facts are not conclusive but you just attack and then jump to something else after your points are neutralized.

Relax guy - eat all the meat you want and lift until you pop, nobody's trying to stop you.
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Traineraz, I have nothing against weights. I lift a little to achieve my desired "look" - you and A would probably think I'm a runt, but chicks love scrawny white dudes.

Re osteoporosis: again, the studies are all over on this. Yes weight-bearing exercise has been proven effective but diet has also been identified as a possible contributor in the first place, so who knows. I'm not slamming what you do. I just don't understand the need to disprove vegetarianism as a viable alternative. Perhaps proving it's unhealthy will justify the killing of animals for consumption.

A - non-violence is a worthy goal in itself. You can do all the things you mentioned without having to kill. If you're hiking and a coyote attacks you, kill it. If you get lost and are starving, go ahead and kill a rabbit or squirrel - it will probably bite or claw you, but a muscular guy lke you should be able to handle a little bunny. Every being is entitled to self-preservation and self-defense.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

As far as vegetarian/vegan goes, from a nutritional standpoint, the former term doesn't amount to much. People say they are vegetarians, yet eat fish, milk, and eggs... these are all animal products. Saying that people don't need to eat animal products, but should eat fish, milk, or eggs is to say something inherently meaningless.

K.
Marccampbell
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My version of weightlifting is getting up out of a chair.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Traineaz,

You call yourself a fitness trainer? You just reiterated D's mistake after I corrected him twice. Weightlifting is a sport. Being bigger is irrelevant. Lifting more than your buddies, and everyone else in your weight class, is the whole point. Period. You of all people should know this.

K.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mmmm... gimme some of those non-animal dairy products.

Give me a break, Destiny. If you had come on here and said: "I don't eat animals. I don't like to. I don't feel it's right." There would be no argument.

What did you do? You kicked off the conversation by associating me with racist murderers. Then you went on to make all kinds of universal proclamations about human nutrition and strength sports, many of which were wrong. I pointed out your ignorance because that is what you were displaying. I'm not above telling the truth. If you don't want to get into an argument, tone down the hyperbole and stick to "I" statements.

K.
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Re "weightlifting", got it. I was using it in the generic sense, didn't mean to hit a nerve. Notice how I didn't call you on the vegetarian/vegansim twist you made, it wasn't material.

I agree about the difference between fighting and muscle cultivation, that's why I said "it's what you train". You just seem to always throw up the skinny, weak, sprout-eating, fuzzy-haired hippy an example of a vegetarian and I was countering your stereotype.
Traineraz
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The fitness trainer comes back again and says:

Weightlifting is not confined to steroid queens whose only goal is to be bigger or lift more than their buddies. It's not just a sport. In moderation (rather than becoming a life focus), it's part of a healthy lifestyle.

Many men and women lift weights for general fitness. Not only can proper weight training increase general physical strength and stamina and improve posture, but weight-bearing exercise in particular (that's weight lifting) has been shown to help prevent (and is recommended as part of programs to TREAT) osteoporosis.

The clients I train usually come to me in a deconditioned state, looking to lose excess body fat, tone and firm up, improve cardiovascular health, become more flexible, and feel better physically. Most of them, after a time, report that they enjoy more "active" pastimes more than they had previously, and find routine physical chores much easier. Their backs don't hurt anymore. I don't train people for bodybuilding competitions.

Incidentally, I'm 5'9" and about 155#. Hardly a steroid-inflamed hulk. I do have a good build, and yes it's nice to look at; but more importantly, I possess the physical strength and flexibility to do most anything I care to do, and have lovely low blood pressure, strong bones, and excellent overall health.

. . . and I do know ONE very well-built 55-year-old vegetarian. He consumes chickie eggs and dairy products.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh yeah...

steroidman
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

BIG CLAY
Marccampbell
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

yeah, I don't get it. Why all the animosity toward vegetarians. What the fuck is wrong with not wanting to be an accessory to the horrific slaughter of peaceful, beautiful animals?

There is a book called SLAUGHTERHOUSE.
Read it and get back to me.
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think we went through the B-12 thing before.

Human need is in micrograms and is stored in the body.

It is naturally avalable in non-animal sea-products and dairy products.

I have no qualms with humanely-derived dairy products.

Yes, I do research my dairy products - even took a trip to the "farm" to see the happy cows and chickens. I eat cheese made from vegetable enzymes not rennet.

Yes, I do check the source when/if I take supplements. Including making sure the capsles are non-gelatin.

I don't think any of this makes me healthier or superior to you, it's just my personal choice. Why do you keep trying to "catch me"?
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I won't even go into the aesthetics of weightlifting because that's a look you either like or you don't."

If nothing else, perhaps we can clear up this bit of ignorance, as it is common and annoying. 'Weightlifting' (one word), has nothing to do with appearance. It is a sport. It's about lifting more weight than the other guy in two lifts: the clean and jerk, and the snatch. Weightlifters don't give a rat's ass how they look, they care about winning competitions. Maybe a vegetarian boxer could kick a weightlifter's ass, but this is completely irrelevant to anything I have discussed. Fighting is a skill unrelated to the cultivation of maximal muscle power.

K.
Anatomist
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I guess the root of my problem with the whole 'humans can survive without eating animal foods' argument, aside from it being false, is the whole spirit of it. Even if I could survive without causing the death or inconvenience of another living organism... why is this a goal?

I could survive without a house... I could probably get by in a well-hidden cardboard box. I could survive without clothes... even near a city, I could probably avoid arrest and beatings with nothing more than a sheet. Food-wise, I could probably survive on 500-600 calories per day, culled from leftovers in the garbage and beggings. Do I want to live like this? No fucking way. I think life is about more than survival, and more than just trying to shrink down to nothing to assuage self-manufactured guilt about the fact of your existence... life is about flourishing, expanding, exploring, creating. If you feel that bad about the horrible costs of your existence, be consistent: become an impoverished bum or hermit, or, better yet, kill yourself.

K.
Destiny
Posted on Saturday, June 8, 2002 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>>Guys who subsist on bean sprouts...

I see you've pulled out your own manual of hysterics and dirty tricks. If you're talking competitions, that's something completely different - do what you want, enjoy your trophies and good luck in he future. You've made that frizzy haired bean-sprout eating argument before and it was universally dismissed as nonsense. For every ridiculous example you give me I could counter with a beautiful haired, physically exquisite example. A power lifter may be able to lift more due to their training but I know several vegetarians that could go toe to toe against most lifters in a brawl so it's what you train not necessarily how much you can lift.

I know you can be healthy as a carnivore. If you eat a balanced diet and exercise you can be extremely healthy and I've never said otherwise. But animal foods are not nutritionally "superior" in the average diet and you can't make a scientific case to support that. He studies go both ways and I accept that as a draw. I remember in our previous discussion that you said something about how difficult it would be for you to get enough vegetable protein and I gave you specific examples of how easy it was. So then you went off to another argument.

There are two issues, health and "morality". You can't make a factual case for vegetarians being any less healthy than a carnivore and you can't make a logical case for it being okay to protect Fluffy but then kill and eat Bessie. Make any choice you want, but you can't rationalize it.

(I won't even go into the aesthetics of weightlifting because that's a look you either like or you don't.)

I can admit that there are scientific discrepancies regarding animal vs. vegetable-based diets, but you seem hell-bent on discrediting vegetarianism so you can comfortably worship at the feet of Charles Atlas. You're a smart guy, calling me "ignorant" because I don't agree with you is below you.

Damn, sucked into this arguement again...

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