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Archive through June 09, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru June 2002 » Introducing Rudi » Archive through June 09, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Anatomist
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 6:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OK, one last try, then I give up.

"A - I'm just amazed at your arrogance. Choosing to brand anyone that disagrees with you as "ignorant" does a disservice to your arguement."

I did not call you ignorant because you disagreed with me, I called you ignorant because you were exhibiting ignorance of commonly available knowledge regarding nutrition and strength sports. Getting on a high horse about how one should be egalitarian and respectful of others' opinions is a little hard to digest from someone who started the whole exchange by likening me to a black and jew-hating KKK member. Please.

"You failed to make any logical points or present any evidence whatsoever to support your attacks."

Absolutely the most ludicrously ironic thing you've said thus far. I provided a counterexample to the notion that humans can and/or were made to eat nothing but vegetables: the necessity of vitamin B12, which is only available in sufficient quantities from animal sources and petri cultivations. I even prefaced it with an explanation of the significance of a counterexample, in case the concept was foreign to you. You kept making wildly illogical inferences and tangents. To summarize, these are the points I made: 1) B12 is necessary for health, and unavailable from plants, 2) vegetarian eating in the pursuit of success in strength sports and muscle building is not impossible, but a big pain in the ass, 3) even if depriving oneself of an entire category of food types is sufficient for survival, or some semblance of health, as a life goal, these consolation prizes represent aiming pretty low. 4) weightlifting is a specific sport, and the term is not interchangeable with weight training, strength training, or resistance training, which are general terms.

"What's worse is that you won't even concede that there is scientific evidence to support both sides!"

2 and 3 are matters for 'agreeing to disagree', no scientific evidence is relevant. 1 and 4 are facts, there is no 'both sides'.

K.
Mogan_David
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Destiny

----------------------
quote
Acre for acre, compare the food output of produce farms versus cattle farms. Do some research on the tremendous loss of habitat due to the incredble inefficiency of massive cattle farming, you'll be amazed.
----------------------------

That is true to a point, but keep in mind that the cattle ranches provide habitat for other animals and plants besides just the cattle themselves. When I go to to hunt deer, it's normally on land that is grazed by cattle, so I know first hand that although large tracts of land are used by cattle ranchers, the environmental impact is not the same as a field of some cash crop.

-------------------------------
Yes, we are physical omnivores, but that just means we can survive on almost anything. Killing animals for food isn't necessary, so the action changes from necessity to murder.
--------------------------------

This is the kind of comment that sends a chill down my spine. You simply cannot equate killing to eat with murder.

In order to live, all animals must have some impact on the environment. You by choosing to be a vegitarian you are only choosing the type of impact you bring to bear on nature. Think about the insecticides, fertilizer and other nasties that run into our rivers and streams. If you choose to eat organicaly grown vegies, then you will require more land to grow the food you eat. You increase the problem of loss of habitat, and still have the problem of silt running into the rivers and choking off underwater life.

Please don't equate eating meat with murder. We all have a right to live on this planet. It's not murder when a bear (another omnivore) eats a trout or any other meat he happens upon. How can it be murder if I eat a cow?

Equating the life of an animal to that of a human is inherently evil in that it cheapens the value of human life.

Where do you draw the line? Is a the life of an old man worth the same as a young buck deer? How about a retarded child? What about a field mouse? A mosquito?
Traineraz
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rudi ran away from the hunter. He was afraid he'd end up in a stir-fry.

Mmmmm . . . stir-fry.
Pikkle
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here Rudi, Rudi, Rudi...
Destiny
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

A - I'm just amazed at your arrogance. Choosing to brand anyone that disagrees with you as "ignorant" does a disservice to your arguement. You failed to make any logical points or present any evidence whatsoever to support your attacks. What's worse is that you won't even concede that there is scientific evidence to support both sides!

Goblin, that "fish eating vegetarian" thing drives me nuts. I also hear people say they're vegetarians but eat chicken!

BJ - Exactly, there is no logic to it. Like I said, self-defense is a sovergn right; if there's a choice to be made, yes, my life is more important than yours, no argument. If someone wants to hurt you, or your family or Fluffy, kill them. However, killng without need is murder, even if it tastes good or is convenient.

>>"...what is the leading cause of extinction on our plannet? Is it hunting? Nope, it's loss of habitat."

Acre for acre, compare the food output of produce farms versus cattle farms. Do some research on the tremendous loss of habitat due to the incredble inefficiency of massive cattle farming, you'll be amazed.

As for the hunter, put your naked self and a jack rabbit in the ring and see how you do - my money's on Fluffy, serously. Without weapons my friend, you/we are the hunted.

Finally, Traneraz - I have nothing against your lifestyle or choices, you sound like a healthy balanced person. I jumped into this tread to simply state that it is not scientifically sound to proclaim animal products as suprior sources of nutrition. A nutritionally balanced vegetarian diet, combined with exercise and weight training will produce a physically strong, healthy and attractive individual.

I'm not judging or condemning anyone for their choices. I don't walk around feeling superior and thinking that meat-eaters are evil. Yeah, I do think it's immoral, but so is banging some guys girlfriend, but if she's a babe and hits on you, what can you do? Making the right choice would be tough, and I accept that chosing to be vegetarian is tough - but it quickly becomes second nature. Humans were designed with feet as our mode of transportation but we used our brain to design cars, trains and planes. Yes, we are physical omnivores, but that just means we can survive on almost anything. Killing animals for food isn't necessary, so the action changes from necessity to murder.

Marc - light topics like "Britney or Christina" are so much easier to deal with. This mode of commnication for debates/discussions is so damn time consuming!
Mogan_David
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 12:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lordhobgoblin,

Excuse me, I didn't mean to call you a hippy. I guess Godless Hippy would be more accurate.

--------------------------------------
You talk about the way God made us as if you have been given some sort of divine blessing to kill. You talk about God as if God is a proven fact which automatically backs up your argument.
---------------------------------------

I don't believe we have a devine blessing to kill any more than any other meat eating animal on this planet. Nor do I believe that killing for meat is in any way wrong. In fact I believe that killing with a hunting rifle as opposed to fangs and claws is a much more "humane" means of converting life to meat.

My only point is that anything that is alive and not a plant must kill something else in order to survive. Therefore killing as a means of providing sustanance can't be wrong. Call it a holly blessing if you will, but it's just life. Humans have a right to live here as much as anything else on this earth.

-----------------------------------
You really are so full of shit that it beggars belief.
------------------------------------

Watch out, there's digested meat in that shit. ;-)
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Maybe I should make an exception and go along with force feeding him some cabbage, brocolli, peas and spinach. That should flush some of the shit out of him.
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

You really are so full of shit that it beggars belief.



Well, too much meat can get do that. Maybe he needs some roughage.

I eat meat so future generations will know the joy of leaning out the car window and yelling "MOOOOO" at a field of cows...
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

Much as I admire and respect the Dalai Lama (probably above most others on this planet) if he eats fish then he ain't no vegetarian. He's not always right although he usually talks a lot of sense.

Hobgoblin
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mogan David,

I'm a vegetarian, I'm no hippy and I sure don't hate myself. I don't condemn others for eating meat either. I eat what I feel is morally right for ME to eat. I am not remotely interested in your moral well-being, only in my own so therefore I will try to act in a way that I believe is in the benefit of MY moral welfare. I really could not care less about your moral welfare. Your moral welfare is of no concern of mine and I have no right to interfere.

Why do you assume that all vegetarians have something against you because you eat meat? What exactly is your problem with others choosing not to eat meat? Why do you assume I'm remotely interested in force-feeding you peas and carrots?

You talk about the way God made us as if you have been given some sort of divine blessing to kill. You talk about God as if God is a proven fact which automatically backs up your argument.

What happens to the animals displaced by the soy bean fields? Well quite simply we stop breeding them. Why do you think vegetarians would have a problem with that? You talk about the destruction of the planet well what do think all those farm bred animals eat? Thin air? They eat plants and then humans eat them and in the process of the life of a farm animal most of the nutritional value of the plants they ate is burnt up. It is a much more efficient use of land to produce plants for human consumption than to breed animals for food. Any school boy with half a brain could work that one out.

You really are so full of shit that it beggars belief.

Hobgoblin
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Blackjack, you da man!!

Vegatarianism is just some more screwed up hippy shit.



Please don't put these two statements so close together. I am not attacking vegetarianism. For me, it is neither positive nor negative; it is just a preference, and I do take issue with those who attack vegetarians out of hand. I was only arguing against the idea that vegetarianism is innately more moral a position than eating meat, or that it is palpably a "less violent" lifestyle within the context of life in the industrialized west.

We are no longer a meaningful part of the "food chain", unless you happen to get a tape worm, and, to a large extent, neither are the animals and plants we eat. We have created our own little food-pocket which exists seperatly from the previous (I hesitate to say "natural") order of things. Regardless, there is no moral virtue or vice to be inferred from the natural-ness of something. We eat meat, as a society, because we find it enjoyable and convenient, and because we have only passing regard for the lives of animals, not because it is part of our nature.


Quote:

Now ask yourself, what is the leading cause of extinction on our plannet? Is it hunting? Nope, it's loss of habitat.



Er, you're aware that most of that habitat is lost to clear land for grazing cattle, right? Attempting to defend meat-eating on ecological grounds is just absurd. There is no question that a meat-based diet, especially one based on large mammals, requires a great deal more in terms of land and resources than a plant-based one. Neither is zero-footprint, but unless we start ranching iguanas, the calorie-per-acre ratio of high-yield cerals is staggeringly higher than that of livestock.
Mogan_David
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack, you da man!!

Vegatarianism is just some more screwed up hippy shit.

Honestly it's an expression of self hatred. It says I hate all humanity because humanity is unnatural and mean.

Human beings, like every other animal on the plannet have a place in the food chain. Like it or not, we are omnivores and that's just the way god made us. It is just as wrong for us to kill and eat a cow as it is for an eagle to kill and eat a mouse or fish. Did ya ever try to force feed an eagle peas and carrots? I haven't either, but I imagine it would work as well with them as it would with me.

Wanna hear something even worse. I like to kill what I eat. Yes.. I'm an evil hunter. What a bastard. I like to go out into the woods and shoot little deer, take their carcasses home and eat them for dinner.
But before you (vegitarians) damn me to hell for my sins, ask yourself what happens to the animals displaced by the soy fields used to make your damn tofu? At least when I'm done eating the deer have a place to live and breed. The tofu eaters take away land from the animals they love for the rest of the forseeable future. Now ask yourself, what is the leading cause of extinction on our plannet? Is it hunting? Nope, it's loss of habitat. And who takes away habitat from the defenseless little animals. You got it, the Tofu eaters.

Ok, I'll put away my soap box for now.
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

BJ - I have no qualms with those that eat meat out of necessity, but it's not a necessity for much of ther world anymore.




Very little that I do, I do out of necessity. Most of it I do in order to cultivate a life which I find enjoyable and rewarding. And yes, there is suffering and death as a result of this, and not just among animals.

Becoming a vegetarian is, at best, a karmic Band-Aid. It doesn't take all that much effort and requires no real suffering or hardship on your part. Try giving up electricity. And I don't just mean for yourself. Try giving up any product which uses electricity somewhere along its production line. Because PEOPLE, not just animals, are suffering and dying for the energy you consume, directly and indirectly. Just because you aren't eating their flesh or burning the corpses to keep warm doesn't make them any less dead.

Do I care about the suffering of cows? Not a lot. Certainly less than I care about the suffering of people, and I am clearly willing to put up with that in order to live the life I do.

I care about the well-being of my cats because I have an emotional bond to them. Hell, I have a strong emotional bond to my CAR, to the point that I cringe when I see another '72 Eldorado blown up in a movie. That doesn't mean I expect others to share this bond, or that I extend the bond to all other makes of cars. There isn't any logic to it and I don't think there needs to be.
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

When the old school folks do it... it ain't called hijacking. It's called "natural progression".
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

There are many reasons for being a vegetarian and there are several kinds of vegetarians but anyone who eats fish is quite simply NOT a vegetarian of any sort.



The Dalai Lama eats fish, and calls himself a vegetarian. I'm not going to argue with him.
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

You can do all the things you mentioned without having to kill.



Well, except all those vegetables, but they don't count.

Even if you only eat fruit, and plant the seeds when you are done, you're killing. Your body is contantly killing off all sorts of organisms. Your environment is swimming with various creatures, plants and fungi which you destroy simply by existing. Unless you are going to lay yourself out as food for the beetles like a Ja'in ascetic, you live through the death of other things.
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Why all the animosity toward vegetarians.



Essentially, it is because there is the implication that those who don't eat meat for moral reasons consider those who do eat meat to be immoral, in the same way a person who declares themself Pro-Life is implying that they think those who have had abortions are immoral.

I'm not saying either of these perceptions are necessarily correct, but it makes the hostility more understandible. I personally find the hostility towards veg*ns rather absurd. You shouldn't have to be put on the moral defensive just to order lunch...
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

can't make a factual case for vegetarians being any less healthy than a carnivore and you can't make a logical case for it being okay to protect Fluffy but then kill and eat Bessie.



You also can't make a logical case that it's OK to place more value on your own life than the life of another human, but we all have to do it, in order to survive. There is no logical case to support the idea that you should be more concerned with the life of your own child than for the life of any random child in Uganda, but you don't find many people who wouldn't feed their own child before sending money to Sally Struthers. For that matter, there is no logical case that the life of a cabbage is less valuable than that of a pig. All of these are essentially emotional reactions. And there's nothing wrong with that, so long as we respect the basic rights of other humans in the process. I like rats, personally, but I wouldn't force a farmer to let them destroy his stores just because I think they have cute wee nosies.
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Meat-eaters often say to me "What do you use instead of meat in your meal?" as if a meal always has to be a slab of meat (or meat substitute), with a portion of starchy filler vegetable and couple of portions of other vegetables on the side.



I have a vegetarian friend who reluctantly tried to cook for her meat-eating boyfriend, but it usually ended up being her tossing a big hunk of unseasoned meat alone on a plate. The converse of the people who say "but there's a salad bar" to vegetarians are the vegetarians who assume non-veg's eat nothing BUT meat...

I've never undertood meat-partisanship. I probably eat more meals without meat than with, just because it's cheaper and easier. I like veggie burgers on their own merits, and eat a lot of vegetarian Indian food. But dangit, if there aren't days where Chicken McNugges or Gored-Gored don't hit the spot just right...
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Huh-huh..snatch...clean and jerk...

But I'm all about column A. Sure, my knees will buckle shortly before my heart explodes, but dammit if I can't toss absurdly heavy objects in the air...
Anatomist
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 7:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Weightlifting: An Olympic sport comprised of 2 ballistic lifts - The clean and jerk, and The snatch. The greatest heavyweight weightlifter of all time:

alexeyevalexeyev


Powerlifting: A sport coprised of three slow, maximal strength lifts - the Squat, the Deadlift, and the Bench Press. A powerlifter:

powerlifter


Bodybuilding: A "sport" in which the object is to get big muscles and low bodyfat, and enter bodybuilding contests... a form of beauty pageant. A bodybuilder:

bb
Anatomist
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 7:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Traineraz,

I guess I'm going to have to drop out of this conversation because I'm talking to two people incapable of logical thought. I did not state or imply that being a fitness trainer is all about the sport of Weightlifting. That's an absurdity. I do however think being a fitness trainer should imply not being ignorant about strength sports. If you don't know the difference between weightlifting, powerlifting, and lifting weights/weight training and use these terms interchangeably, you are propagating ignorance in a field in which you are marketing yourself as a teacher. Would you think it was OK for a mental health professional to go around saying "psychologist, physiologist, physiotherapist, psychiatrist... whatever, they all sound pretty much the same"?

I am not a weightlifter, I don't even do the clean and jerk or the snatch as part of my routine. I posted the steroid dude for fun. I have no desire to look anything like that. Once again, I implied none of this. Like Destiny, it appears that in the face of serious argumentation you can perceive nothing but the fact that someone is being mean to you, and so begin to lash out blindly.

I have not insulted either you or Destiny because I disagree with you. I have argued with things you have said which were wrong. Where I have insulted either of you, it has been out of frustration with your apparent inability to think and learn.

K.
Pikkle
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

If I wanted Rudi, I'd order Rudi... so far this hasn't happened. I'll let you know when it does. And if it does, I'll also let you know if Rudi tastes like chicken. I've a feeling Rudi doesn't. Who am I to judge? Who is anyone?
Stop your hanging around...
Marccampbell
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 4:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I weigh 200 pounds. I'm 5'11. I have man-tits. There is a disturbing fold of flesh below my belly button and above my prick. My left testicle sags more than my right. My workout program consists of two and a half minutes of jerking off,
followed by lifting myself out of bed, walking to the bathroom, squatting on the toilet and propelling a semi-hard junk of shit into the toilet. I brush my teeth vigorously and swill listerine in my mouth for a full 30 seconds. I then speedwalk to the computer and with my left hand
pump plastic (the mouse). I feel pretty damned good. My wife says I could afford to lose 40 pounds.
But, she's a meanspirited bitch who doesn't know what the fuck she's talking about.
Traineraz
Posted on Sunday, June 9, 2002 - 3:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Actually, Hob, I believe you misunderstand. In disagreeing with Destiny, I said the exact opposite: I believe it to be perfectly LOGICAL to protect an animal with which I have formed an emotional bond while eating an animal with which I have no such bond.

. . . and A, I'm sorry that you think "fitness" only means competitive weightlifting. I call myself a "fitness trainer," and I work with clients to improve their physical fitness, not to make them obsessed with weightlifting or encourage them to tie their self-esteem up in their ability to lift heavy things. My average client (upper-middle-class, between 35 and 50, usually male but some women) has no interest in "sport" weightlifting. Nor do I. I have other things to do besides workout for 3 hours a day and shoot up steroids, like go to grad school full-time, and not worry about what someone ELSE can do.

Of course, getting up to 385 pounds like your buddy there is the opposite of "fitness," no matter how much weight he can lift. His knees don't know the difference between 385 pounds of muscle or of fat . . . the joints will be damaged just as heavily. It's called arthritis. Read about it, if you're that big, it's probably in your future. My Dad had both hips replaced, so I know what the surgery and recovery is like. I'd rather keep the joints I have in good working order, thank you very much.

If you enjoy weightlifting as a sport, yippee for you. I'm very happy that you've found a hobby for yourself, and one that's constructive. However, part of growing up is realizing that not everyone shares your opinions on every subject, or look at your hobby the same way you do, rather than attempting to insult those who do not subscribe to your particular beliefs.

Destiny - I wouldn't call you a runt; remember, I'm 5'9" and 155 pounds. I'm not exactly huge, so I couldn't criticize even if I were asshole enough to want to insult someone else's body type or fitness level. I used to weigh more (got all the way up to 173 for a while, still not overbuilt by any standard) and obsess over such things, but eventually got tired of having to consume 4,000 calories a day to maintain my weight (high metabolism). Eating oneself sick six times a day loses its attractiveness over time.

When I moved to AZ, in July, heat stress, moving everything I owned (including 1,500 records) into a third-floor apartment, and skipping a few meals combined to cost me twenty pounds in under two weeks. No matter what I did, I couldn't get more than about 10 back. I had to decide to either start shooting up, or get over it. Now I have a healthy set point at 155#, I eat what I want, when I want (about 2,000-2,500 calories), ride my bike around when it's feasible, and work out all of 3x a week. I'm not making myself miserable by trying to pack on mass I can't maintain, and I have time for a life. Yay for me, and yay for you for having a fitness program with which YOU are happy!

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