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Holly Balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » Holly Balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 16, 2002Mogan_David25 6-16-02  6:52 am
Archive through June 17, 2002Wolfgang25 6-17-02  5:40 am
Archive through June 18, 2002Wolfgang25 6-18-02  12:13 pm
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Petermarc
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 6:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

>Probably the reason why we don't have any glowing reports of how good absinthe tasted is that starving writers and artists drank the cheap, nasty stuff, while the Pernods and Oxygenees were drank by the fat cats depicted in the ads.

you've answered your question...

>"The bulk (85%) of antique absinthes were not the 4-5 premium labels. The bulk of absinthe consumed in 19th century was macerated/steeped swill adulterated with heavy metals, insecticides, aniline dyes, etc., and those adulterants were probably responsible for the damage done by absinthe.

based on how difficult it is to get french regional products in paris, even today, this statement most likely reflects what was drunk by the average working joe-claude, manufactured in paris or other very big cities (big, by french standards)...pontarlier is a one-horse town, but is a big city to the folks in the region...it appears there were many good local absinthe distillers, but their products never left the region, let alone the neighborhood...it is much more likely in the future, someone could find an old bottle of coca cola, but not a bubble-up...
Wolfgang
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 5:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr.O, When we look at vintage price charts, we can see that even the best brands where cheap compared to most other products (can someone post a picture of a vintage price list ?).

Let's not forget that Pernod&Fils was by far the lasgest absinthe producer and that at its peak about 30000L/day went out of the distillery.

That leads me to believe that it was not so out of reach...
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

No, I mean that literally- I ask, they tell me.
Zman7
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

**I don't know anyone that drinks crappy Amercian beer because they prefer it. They all drink it, when they do, because it is cheap.**
..or more likely they don't know any better, and don't care.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Historically, fake, shitty absinthe was more common than the good stuff."

Since Don is not here, I would like to share with the Forum his opinion on the matter:

"The bulk (85%) of antique absinthes were not the 4-5 premium labels. The bulk of absinthe consumed in 19th century was macerated/steeped swill adulterated with heavy metals, insecticides, aniline dyes, etc., and those adulterants were probably responsible for the damage done by absinthe. Any attempt to take an anecdotal account of 'effects' from a century gone by or more, and extrapolate that, would need to be based on a certainty that one was drinking absinthe and not absinthe plus antomony plus aniline plus copper acetylarsenate, etc."

Probably the reason why we don't have any glowing reports of how good absinthe tasted is that starving writers and artists drank the cheap, nasty stuff, while the Pernods and Oxygenees were drank by the fat cats depicted in the ads.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Indeed Ted!

I was talking out of my ass there... I have no numbers either way.

Yet, even if we did have numbers, I wonder if your efforts (among others') will render the current situation 'limited' chronologically and geographically.

There is the 'quality will out' argument, and then the 'Budweiser is king' side.

It will be very educational finding out. Marketing and price will play a role, but in the long haul...

Actually price may be the kicker. I don't know anyone that drinks crappy Amercian beer because they prefer it. They all drink it, when they do, because it is cheap.
Tabreaux
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 2:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>Historically, fake, shitty absinthe was more common than the good stuff."

*If* there is any truth to this statement, its applicability with respect to geographic regions in France and points in time is most certainly limited.


> Has anyone managed to get samples of some of the earlier Pernod F and compared it with similarly stored samples produced immediately prior to the ban?

I've been 'face to face' with an unopened bottle of the earliest Dubied, but no sample. I know a bit about the preban evolution of absinthe, but this seems to be largely due to improvements in technology and changes necessitated by increasing scale of production.

Post-ban evolution (in the traditional region) seemed to encompass various changes that better suited clandestine producers.
Timk
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I believe it's wrong to "freeze" absinthe in 1899. If it had not been banned"

The point is it was banned, and none of the commercially avaliable brands at that time had the chance to evolve, sure absinthe may have evolved into the Pastis of today had it not been banned, and no one may have cared, but that is not the case. We have a unique drink, banned 85 years ago which underwent no large scale commercial development since then, and all of the currently avaliable commercial brands bear little or no resemblance to the originals.

Absinthe has to all intents and purposes been stuck in a time warp since the ban.

Sure there were many, many commercially avaliable varieties to choose from, undoubtedly with a large range of flavour profiles. I dont disagree with 'veering,' but at what point do you draw the line?

Has anyone managed to get samples of some of the earlier Pernod F and compared it with similarly stored samples produced immediately prior to the ban?

Really if we want to look into the evolution of absinthe we need some of the original Dubied product, then at least we could see in what direction the commercial 'evolution' of absinthe was heading, and maybe have some basis to judge the modern 'evolution' of the same.
Timk
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"rest assured that I drink virtually no absinthe at all."

What he said
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Historically, fake, shitty absinthe was more common than the good stuff.

Absinthe was a subject surrounded by myth, bad science, and bullshit.

Just like now :-D

I don't need antique glasses and spoons for that 19th century, belle epoch feeling. I just need some Guy and someone going on about how much Thujone there is in a glass of Crap is King Absinthe.

I take my $1.00 glasses and my $5.00 spoons and thank the green goddess (and Kallisti) that I am not numbered amongst the ignorant, swilling Hills and hallucinating that I'm having hallucinations I really aren't having.

Next, I bet the Blue Cross health insurance company will try to ban it for health reasons, and we will realize that while history doesn't repeat itself, it sure as hell has trouble coming up with new material.
Pataphysician
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"If it had not been banned, by now we would probably have "Mandarin Pernod 68""

Good guess. Immediately after the ban, the drink of choice among the Paris avant-garde was Mandarin Curacao.
Artemis
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

> Talking them down collectively as 'modern
> excuses for absinthe' is almost useless

You're absolutely right, if you mean do those comments have utility in helping you decide what to buy. Personally, I wouldn't buy any of it except possibly La Fee and Un Emile. But in terms of giving you an idea about the current state of absinthe in general, it's not useless. The situation is certainly not as hopeless as you seem to think - I'm convinced there will be Jade and I know there will be Un Emile. If it makes you feel any better, rest assured that I drink virtually no absinthe at all. When I do drink it, it's usually very good, but I almost never drink it, because good absinthe is that hard to get!! I drink mostly beer and sake myself.

> Artemis, while I agree with you about pseudo-
> absinthes and outright frauds, I don't
> about "veering". What's wrong with that?

Nothing I guess. It's just that Spanish absinthe diverged at some point from what I believe absinthe once was, and should still (to my taste), be.
Tabreaux
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Absinthe always has and continues to evolve. We were recently engaged in a conversation with a distinguished gentleman who is probably the most knowledgable in matters absinthe in the Val de Travers. He made the point that absinthe has continued to evolve in the region since the ban, hence the existence of 'La Bleue' and the absinthes of similar style (both legitimate and clandestine) typical of the region. This evolution, which can be considered as 'veering' somewhat from traditional absinthes, is geuine in its own right, and should not to be confused with the 'veering' from basic quality standards, techniques, and truth of advertising that abounds with so many modern products.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"This includes Spanish products that have long since veered from what quality absinthe was in France in the 1800s, pseudo-absinthes from various places that for various reasons miss the mark, and outright frauds."

Artemis, while I agree with you about pseudo-absinthes and outright frauds, I don't about "veering". What's wrong with that?

Segarra makes an honest, high-quality product. So what if it doesn't taste like '99 Pernod 68°? It is just a different absinthe.

Do we complain that wine has "veered" from the wine the Greeks drank, a thick syrup so loaded with psychoactive herbs that it had to be diluted 10 or even 20/1? Do we taste a quality wine and say: "Nice, but not "true" wine?

How about beer? I would say that it "veered" a lot since the Middle Ages, but today we drink an extra-stout, a Belgian Lambic or a pilsener, and, despite them being so completely different, we have no problem calling them "beers".

I believe it's wrong to "freeze" absinthe in 1899. If it had not been banned, by now we would probably have "Mandarin Pernod 68", "Pernod 68 Lite", you name it.

Let's leave the dogmas to the Vatican.
Chevalier
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 9:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

There is light at the end of this tunnel. (Not "Tunel".)
Wolfgang
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 9:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I myself place great hope in Emile68 ...We will see. By the way it would be a good move to provide a bottle or two of Emile68 for the NY GT... Something like an official launch maybe ? *hint* *hint* ? ?

As for Jade's absinthes, it's suppose to be made available to the public so it's just a matter of time...

For sure a bottle of Emile is more expensive than Deva but who's drinking Champagne every day ?

The bests are yet to come and I'm sure everybody will soon be able to enjoy it.
Silent_Rich
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 8:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's called jealousy, thats all. I am not saying particularly ... but I frequently get this sort of aura of deep discontent from experienced absintheurs (in the respect of having worked their way through the best and the wost of most variations) towards modern brands ... the constant attack of oh it's not really absinthe ... I love reading the reviews of all, but they are dissapointing because Jade seems so distanced and the fine work in many hausgemachtes or vintage is even more so. It feels too out of my reach, I feel cheated drinking my inferior quality 'absinthe'. Not that I particularly dislike it, I think Francois (flavor wise) really compliments a beautiful summer evening buy I still fear I will never have the joy of tasting an epitomized (from point of view of somebody with a wide spectrum of absinthe experience)quality absinthe.
Wolfgang
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would like if people didn`t write sentences like ''Jade or Moonman (and the other properly ...''. It could get misleading because what people call ''Moonman's'' is just another amateur home-brew like many other made in mystery land and it can`t be compared to Jade, who`s a serious commercial venture.

Just wanted to set things straight...
Zman7
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 8:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Also look at the reviews of everything as a sort of absinthe "education." What you think or don't think about a product shouldn't stop you from learning something. Many of the average Spanish products are just fine to drink if you are looking for some refreshment. Just because Deva is not akin to vintage or hausgemachte doesn't mean it can't hit the spot. Heck, I even tipple a Mari Mayans every now and then......
Chevalier
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 8:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"... talking about the inferiority of modern, commercial, 'absinthes' is not much help [to me] when there isn't much else available to the general public ... Talking them down collectively as 'modern excuses for absinthe' is almost useless [to me] ..."

Perhaps reviews by Artemis, Wolfgang, etc. aren't meant for you. And why should they be? The good news is that there are plenty of reviews around here by people in the same boat as you. Perhaps you'll find them more useful. (I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic. It's not meant to.)
Silent_Rich
Posted on Wednesday, June 19, 2002 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You know I do know opinions count and such and I rather like hearing product reviews, but talking about the inferiority of modern, commercial, 'absinthes' is not much help when there isn't much else available to the general public, having none to compare to other than a slew of equal or lesser inferior products makes it hard to really judge what inferiority is in an absinthe. Jade or Moonman (and the other properly made homebrews) aren't available to shlocks like me who have just dipped their toes into the world of absinthe for the first time. Talking them down collectively as 'modern excuses for absinthe' is almost useless and saying whether Kubler (which personally I do not favor towards) is better or worse than Francois is an important chunk of information being as those are both 'absinthes' readily available to me ... otherwise I can't even begin to comprehend the flavor/sensation faults in comparison to much better replicated modern products or vintages.
Traineraz
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

STOP THINKING ABOUT PINK ELEPHANTS!!!


What are you thinking about right now? Pink elephants, I bet.


STOP THINKING ABOUT KALLISTI NAKED!!!
Wolfgang
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

ok, I let you win, I'm pushing a wall...
_Blackjack
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

STOP THINKING ABOUT ME NAKED.



Um...but...

[sulk]
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

""Fine" is when a product is made to be as good as possible regardless of cost or other considerations."

Nothing is made for commercial sale without any regard for cost or other considerations. It is all a matter of the degree to which you are prepared to let such other considerations push up the final retail price of the product.

In the end the definition of 'Fine' is down to human taste-buds and therefore down to someone's personal opinion.

Hobgoblin
Admin
Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2002 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

STOP THINKING ABOUT ME NAKED.


all of you.


heeeeheeee.

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