Topics Topics Edit Profile Profile Help/Instructions Help Member List Member List Edit Profile Register  
Search Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Archive through June 17, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » Wanna know what pisses me off? » Archive through June 17, 2002 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Even the Canadians could come and take over"--

I'm more afraid of right wing gun slinging Americans with a Dirty Harry "always on the defensive" complex, than I am afraid of Canada, eh?
Kite
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Some dumb fuck left wing politico said the reason healthcare costs are rising is that there are too many doctors.

Now it took me a while to grasp what he was talking about. I mean supply and demand would lead one to believe that if there were too many doctors it would lower costs, not increase them. Then slowly I came to understand what this evil bastard was saying. If there are fewer doctors, people have to wait longer to see a doctor. Their helthcare is delayed, and more people die rather than run up a large bill treating their illness.

Gotta love that government logic"

Yikes, if you really believe a politician from either party would go on television and say that...well you're...nevermind, I don't want to talk about it. Just be careful that you don't get too close to the truth, buddy, the shadow government might send a cloned ninja to give you an anal probe.
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>Oddly enough, mot of the industrialized nations of the world manage just fine with much smaller militaries. Japan has none to speak of. Yet, for some reason, they seem to be getting attacked LESS than we are...

Normally I try to be nice, but:

Dumbass,

Japan isn't allowed to have a fucking military!
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>"Explain to me exactly how providing health care to everyone will lead to a police state. And don't tell me that the taxes would be opressive, because I've already pointed out that you are paying more in taxes now for health care than you probably would be under a universal system. "

First let me define what I mean by a "Police State" so we have no misunderstandings. A police state exists where the people cannot go about their daily lives without breaking one or another law. They live in fear of the police coming to arrest them. They must submit to any hummiliation by anyone connected with the government because they fear for their lives or their livlihood.

When the government can dictate how and when a person can recieve treatment for an illness they have another means for making life and death decisions for individuals in the populations that they are supposed to serve. They can create laws like those that traineraz advocated earlier. No smoking, or no healthcare. They can ban alcohol, fat and just about anything considered unhealthy in the name of healthcare.

Is that a police state. Well I guess it all depends on degree. It is however a step in that direction.

How many times do you remember the government taking a step in the direction of individual freedom? Once a freedom is lost it's lost forever. It takes blood to buy freedom.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Bunny, Don't you think that defense should be the most expensive thing in the budget?



Oddly enough, mot of the industrialized nations of the world manage just fine with much smaller militaries. Japan has none to speak of. Yet, for some reason, they seem to be getting attacked LESS than we are...
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

You want to let it into people's private lives and dictate the terms on which someone is allowed to see a doctor?



No. Just the opposite. I want them to allow EVERYONE to see a doctor, instead of allowing profit-driven enterprises to invade people's private lives and dictate the terms on which they are allowed to see a doctor.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Voting with your pocketbook beats just regular voting anytime.



Voting with your pocketbook assumes that you have a pocketbook. Corporations do a great job at providing services to the people who can pay enough for them. They do a piss poor job at providing services for EVERYONE, however. Some things (like police protection, sewage, education, and in my--and the world community's--opinion, healthcare) are so vital that we must ensure that they are provided to all people, not just those who have enough money to motivate a profit-driven industry to provide them.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Why is it that you don't fear the government?



I fear the government plenty. I just fear corporations more. Because I have DIRECT control over the government. And I only fear the government when it it sttempting to be restrictive. When the government is providing a SERVICE, it suits me just fine.


Quote:

Am I the only one around here who fears a police state?



Explain to me exactly how providing health care to everyone will lead to a police state. And don't tell me that the taxes would be opressive, because I've already pointed out that you are paying more in taxes now for health care than you probably would be under a universal system.
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 6:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For the love of all that is holy!

Bunny, Don't you think that defense should be the most expensive thing in the budget? I mean hell without defense we don't have a country. Even the Canadians could come in and take over. After the events in September do you realy think that other countries care about our peace love and equality? Some do, others fear our weapons, and still others should fear them more than they do.

I think I'm going to loose my mind here with all you lefties. I spill my heart and guts out to you guys and you keep on whining about social spending. You don't seem to realize that us righties care too, but we just distrust the government. We want to LIMIT it's size and power.

The government's purpose is to guard our peace and tranquility. The social stuff should be handled by other private means. By people less evil than government. By people who can contribute freely to a cause not forced at the point of a gun.
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Instead of just talking out of your asses, I thought I'd give you guys some evidence to try and use to back up your arguments:
http://www.house.gov/nethercutt/annrept.pdf

Keep in mind that this report can be deceptive, because while social spending is #1 (57% of taxes) it consists of about 12 different things (arts, health care, education, welfare, food stamps, transportation, elderly assistance, etcetera etcetera). If you break them down into their individual components, defense spending is still the #1 use of tax revenue, followed by interest on the national debt, which our dumb shit president has no interest in ever paying down. By the way, that 6% in tax returns last year mostly went to the wealthiest 0.2% of Americans. I got 300 fucking dollars that went to the interest on my $65,000 education loan debt. Dick Cheney got over $20 million.

Have at it.

-Bunny
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

One last question.

Why is it that you don't fear the government?

Is it just me who sees it's power increasing daily? Am I the only one who sees the power of big money influence increasing and the voice of the common people being ignored.

Am I the only one around here who fears a police state?

So many people who live in this country already could be considered to live in a police state. God help you if you are an illegal alien, or own a business who couldn't exist without their labor.

It doesn't bother you that the government can tell you to wear a seatbelt. You want to let it into people's private lives and dictate the terms on which someone is allowed to see a doctor?

I know for a fact that Germans are, and always have been kind wonderful people yet somehow Adolf Hitler happened. Sometimes the lunatic fringe takes over and there's nothing you can do. How much power do you want the government to have when the lunatic fringe get their time in the sun once again?

All it takes is a little stress. A plague, famine, economic depression. People start to think and do crazy things.
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

I fear we will never agree on this one.

I'll give it one more try because I'm a masochist. (misogynist?)

Voting with your pocketbook beats just regular voting anytime. As a right wing wacko, my intelligent thoughtful votes are drowned out by the votes of those folks such as your self.

I don't have the kind of money it takes to buy political influence, and unfortunately that's where the power is in this country. The influence I have at the place where I work, or when dealing with an insurance agent although small is many times what I have on Mr. Bush.

You know life sucks when you are poor. You get the worst of everything. Food housing and unfortunately healthcare. The problem with the communist/socialist types is they don't care so much about quality as equality. They are perfectly happy with shitty healthcare so long as it's distributed fairly. Well I say fuck that!!

Why not try to help the poor improve their station in life? Those with the drive to make something of themselves and work hard will get better stuff than those who prefer to stay home and smoke crack. It's tough, but that's life.

Am I saying that we should deny the poor healthcare? Absolutely not! Aside from Medicaid, they already have access to healthcare at any emergency room in the country.

I'm all for reform, just not a government takeover.

Now about the school thing. You complain that only a tiny fraction of our tax dollars go to schools. Again, its another sign of the inefficiency of government. And still you want to give them more to do. Hell they can't even work within the almost limitless amount of money they already get.

When I say they take over half of what I earn, I am talking about all of the taxes that I pay. Have you ever added it all up? Income Tax. Property tax, city tax, fees. Give me a break, every time I turn around the government figures out another way to charge me for something.

On a final note. How the hell can you trust anyone or anything who's best idea to combat terrorism is to take away people's toenail clippers at the airport. Holly FUCK!!
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

If you don't like your insurance company, you can at least complain to your HR dept, or get a new job.



You seem to be running on the assumption that a) people have insurance from work b) the person is well enough that they can take the risk of finding new work before getting treatment and c) that all the insurance companies aren't basically just as bad--which they are, since there are remarkably few legal controls on their practices.


Quote:

When it's the government, you gotta suck it up.



Er, no. Government is that thing you get to VOTE for. It' is the thing over which the people actually have control.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

The goverment already takes more than half of what I earn.



Of which only a tiny fraction goes to schools.

More than half? How much damn money are you making? If you are in that kind of tax bracket, I will hear no complaints from you...


Quote:

When was the last time you dealt with the government for anything and actually felt that you were treated fairly and with dignity?




As opposed to what, the warm feeling of self-worth that I get from our nation's fine corporations? The service I get from the DMV is miles ahead of the harrowing experiences I've had with, say, health insurance companies. At least with the DMV, I feel like they used some lube before fucking me.


Quote:

Yeah, I just love the idea of having the government control my access to healthcare.




Nobody says they have to be. If you want to pay for it yourself, fine. The idea is to provide healthcare for the people who, under the current system, CAN'T pay for it themselves.


Quote:

The quality of healthcare in the US far surpasses the rest of the world.




Maybe if you're in the top tax bracket it is, but just because the technology and expertese are there, it deosn't mean they are accessable to most people. Something on the order of 60,000 people DIE each year in the US because they don't have sufficient health coverage.


Quote:

When was the last time you heard of someone from the US traveling to europe or the UK for a special surgery or procedure?



When was the last time you heard of anyone travelling to the US to buy medications? Never.


Quote:

I coose being healthy over being sick or dead any day.



And I'm sure all of us would like to be in a position to make that choice. For a lot of people, however, it is a matter of having to chose between being healthy and paying their rent.
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rabid,

> "Oh for the sake of fucking fuck!"

Well fucking said.

I know we are getting screwed either way we go. My point is once we let the government run things there is no escape.

If you don't like your insurance company, you can at least complain to your HR dept, or get a new job. When it's the government, you gotta suck it up.

A while back I was watching some news show or other about the rising cost of healthcard. Some dumb fuck left wing politico said the reason healthcare costs are rising is that there are too many doctors.

Now it took me a while to grasp what he was talking about. I mean supply and demand would lead one to believe that if there were too many doctors it would lower costs, not increase them. Then slowly I came to understand what this evil bastard was saying. If there are fewer doctors, people have to wait longer to see a doctor. Their helthcare is delayed, and more people die rather than run up a large bill treating their illness.

Gotta love that government logic
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Government is inefficient and corrupt. How many times do I have to say it."

Oh for the sake of fucking fuck!

I mean, FUCK!

The government doesn't care about doing it right, but even if it did nobody would want to pay enough taxes to let it.

Private enterprise, on the other hand, is about profit, and will most certainly try to stall until you die, refuse to pay for treatment, etc etc.

Scylla or Charibdis?

The problem is this- the people in both types of organization are willing to do such shitty things. Seeking to structure an organizational scheme to prevent corruption, abuse, and evil in general is at best a bandaid. Generally it does about as much good as a stiptic pencil would for a severed artery.

Corruption begins with each and every one of us. Blame the government? Fuck you. Blame private enterprise? Fuck you too.

Everyone in here who isn't a part of either, you get to blame the rest of us.

We are all collaborators.

We built and maintain the turd that is the world we live in.
Pataphysician
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I could never figure out what people meant when they said: "You can't solve a problem by throwing money at it."

Huh?! Of course you can. The Great Depression, World War II, Moon Landing...
Baz
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hell, King huesein (sp) of Jordan came here when he had cancer-coulda gone anywhere!

Course, we couldn't help him...
Traineraz
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

When was the last time you heard of someone from the US traveling to europe or the UK for a special surgery or procedure?


I know a nice fella who went to Sweden for a procedure . . . well, he was a fella when he came back, anyway.
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Peta,

You make my point for me. When government is involved, big money wins, we loose.

Government is inefficient and corrupt. How many times do I have to say it.
Mogan_David
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The thing is, we don't KNOW how well public schoold COULD work, because we have never put enough money into the system to find out."

So how much is enough? The goverment already takes more than half of what I earn. When is it enough? Schools are a perfect example of government in action. Plenty of money for administrators, but not enough teachers or books. When the system fails, the taxpayers have to find an alternative, and yet they must continue to pay for the failed system.

Let me ask you something. When was the last time you dealt with the government for anything and actually felt that you were treated fairly and with dignity? Did you get your driver's liscence renewed? How about going to pay a tax bill? How about asking a simple question of the IRS?
Yeah, I just love the idea of having the government control my access to healthcare.

<but the US healthcare system is the laughing-stock of the world.

Yeah, the world is laughing at the advances in drugs, technology and the general art of medicine practiced here in the USA. Give me a break! The quality of healthcare in the US far surpasses the rest of the world. When was the last time you heard of someone from the US traveling to europe or the UK for a special surgery or procedure? Yet people come here from all over the world. The simple reason is that they want to continue to live, and the state of medical art here is more advanced than anywhere else in the world.

Is it more expensive here? You bet, the best allways costs a little more. I coose being healthy over being sick or dead any day.
Nolamour
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Quote: "It deosn't take much mathematical skill to realize that the increased assistance one receives is not enough to cover the costs of an additional child."

Agreed...But understand, Most that I've read or heard about are actually NOT aware of this. Mathematically, they are unable to add anything more than the fingers on their hands...Quite shocking and sad. EDUCATION! EDUCATION!

I guess "widespread" is the operative word.
Pataphysician
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Ok, please name for me a US government program which is not shoddily and reluctantly hashed together with insufficient funds?"

Subsidies to corporations.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 10:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Not germane? Ok, please name for me a US government program which is not shoddily and reluctantly hashed together with insufficient funds?




That is silly. You are basically saying that, since the government tends to do things inefficiently, that we are better off not trying at all. Of course, the same rationalization has been used for years to avoid putting necessary funding into schools. The thing is, we don't KNOW how well public schoold COULD work, because we have never put enough money into the system to find out.

Like I said, our present system costs MORE than the universal systems in most countries, and provides LESS service for most people. It is difficult to imagine a system that could be worse.


Quote:

I have German relatives, they buy suplemental insurance to augment their national socialist healthcare system. Now come on! They pay and then they get to pay again.




And yet they pay LESS, on average, than their American counterparts, and recieve MORE services, and are MORE satisfied with the care they recieve.

Universal healthcare is not a perfect solution, but the US healthcare system is the laughing-stock of the world. Really. I find most Europeans don't BELIEVE me when I try to explain how it works.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, June 17, 2002 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

There are unmarried women over here having more and more children just to get more money.



I have heard this assertion again and again, but most of the investigations I've seen have failed to find that this is a widespread problem. It deosn't take much mathematical skill to realize that the increased assistance one receives is not enough to cover the costs of an additional child.

Administration Administration Log Out Log Out   Previous Page Previous Page Next Page Next Page