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Archive through June 20, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » GUN FORUM » Archive through June 20, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Trainer:

What I meant was that when a human with a knife confronts a boar, the boar can run away.

When you pulverize a deer from 100 yards away, the deer has no choice.
Traineraz
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

So what we have here are two predators confronting each other. And the fact that the boar's tusks are not much smaller than the hunter's knife makes it an even contest.



It's not a "contest" for anyone but the human. The boar is out minding its own business, trying not to get killed, and some jackass human thinks it wants to get into a "contest?"

. . . and I thought piggies were herbivores?


Quote:

Ok, now I ask all those who object to hunting, are you vegetarian ?



Unkie Wolf, I'd go one step farther. Anyone who is not a 100%-all-the-time vegan, or at least has access to free-range-only milk and eggs (perhaps by having his/her own farm?), is contributing to the cruel treatment of animals on "factory farms."

If I had to choose between being a deer living a normal deer life out in the forest and being taken out by a bullet to the head, or being a moocow growing up in a disease-ridden high-intensity feedlot, only to be bludgeoned to death with a sledgehammer, I think I'd choose the former.

The fate of dairy cows, attached to milking machines and kept in crowded pens, or laying hens, kept 8 to a small cage, where they can hardly move (I saw a thing on PBS), isn't much better. So let's not talk about how cruel hunting for food is, when the things we do to domesticated animals are far more cruel than a single shot to the head.

On another note, comparing the physical human to the physical lion, tiger, or bear is not a valid argument. The human is only at the top of the food chain due to an intellect enabling us to develop technology which makes up for our physical shortcomings. We no longer have to hunt by chasing buffalo off cliffs, so why SHOULD we?
Mogan_David
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. Ordinaire

First of all I don't see hunting as that sort of sport or contest. It's about going back to a more natural way of life, if only in the hunter's mind.

Simply put, any predator must kill his food to eat. Humans have been removed from the natural order. For the most part this is a good thing, but sometimes we forget where we come from. We see predator and prey as a contest between good and evil when in fact it is neither. It's simply life.

There is no heroism in hunting, and certainly not in killing. It's just people trying to go back and live within the natural order of things.

It's funny that people focus on the killing in hunting. That is about .001% of the actual activity. Mostly its about trying to understand the animal, then waiting, then suffering from the cold, rain, snow, then scaring the animal away, then walking back to the truck with nothing, then coming back the next day to do it all again. Sometimes (rarely) you get lucky and you kill your prey. Then it's about guting, cleaning, draging, hanging, skinning, quartering, and finally when you get it home butchering.

You can call it a sport if you want to but it realy isn't. It's chance to peer into a simpler way of life, that realy isn't all that simple.

I'm sorry if my pontificating bothered you, but it's the way I feel about the entire experience. I don't expect you to understand.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wolfie, I hope you are not talking about me.

I respect hunters. A guy who faces a snorting wild boar with huge tusks at 20 paces, armed only with a knife, yep, I respect him. He's far more courageous than I am.

As hunters, I'm sure you and Green are looking forward to doing this kind of hunting. I'll be glad to supply you two with the necessary information.
Greenmeanie
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wolfgang,

HEAR, HEAR!!

-Green
Wolfgang
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok, now I ask all those who object to hunting, are you vegetarian ?

Let's see who's the hypocrites around here...


And the "let's run naked in the savanha" argument is like asking the lion to fight without teeth and claws.

As long as the kill is used for meat and that quotas are observed, I don't see any moral problem to hunting.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"There are better pastimes than hunting. Try football, a game where the losers don't have to die. "

Thanks, Chev. One thing that bothers me about hunters is when they pontificate about "communing with Nature" and shit like that.

You want to "commune with Nature"?. No problem, do some ocean sailboat racing and change a headsail at night in fucking 70 knots of wind. THAT is communing with Nature. And the only one who may get killed...is you.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mogan:

I see your point, and in that respect you are right. A deer cleanly killed is more humane than a boar stabbed 10 times.

But I think you miss something: the boar has a choice. The deer doesn't. I don't think that a human with a knife can "charge" a boar.

So what we have here are two predators confronting each other. And the fact that the boar's tusks are not much smaller than the hunter's knife makes it an even contest. I respect that.

Would you shoot at deer if deer were a dangerous animal and you knew that 1 in 20 deer hunters get eventually gored by deers?
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Try the other side: throw away your knives, spears, bows and guns; fly to Kenya; run naked into the savannah and try avoiding (or fighting off) lions.

Walk in the animal's moccasins for a change, and see what it's like to be stalked as prey. Not much fun when you're the one for dinner, is it? Then again, there are plenty of humans who are happy to stalk YOU as prey. We have laws against those folks. (Unfortunately, some of these laws keep you from fighting back. But I digress ....)

There are better pastimes than hunting. Try football, a game where the losers don't have to die.
Greenmeanie
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hunting in the OPEN with knives, spears and bare hands kinda levels the playing field a bit. It throws a dose of chlorine in to one gene pool or the other!
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yo, how's about "noodling" the art of catching giant bullheads by hand:

noodling
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

That's if the hunter even survives being maimed himself/herself.

I think Dr. O's point is that this kind of hunting gives the boar a better chance at hurting the hunter. Is this a consolation to the boar, or to those who dislike hunters? The latter, probably. To a boar, survival's more important than vengeance. Humans are more complicated that way.
Mogan_David
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 9:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr. Ordinaire,

>In the south of Argentina some nuts hunt wild boar...with a KNIFE!

>Every once in a while, the boar wins...

>Now, that's the kind of hunting I can respect. It takes a bit more balls than murdering a defenseless herbivore at 100 yards...

They do that here too. I don't respect that kind of hunting at all.
These fuckheads are into killing for the sake of killing. They don't give a shit about the animals they terrify attack and maim. It's a bunch of "Rambo" bullshit.

This is what kills me about the anti-hunter types. You glorify the worst examples as somehow heroic, and call the responsible ones a bunch of cowardly rednecks.

If I kill a deer at a 100 yards he experiences a few seconds of pain before he dies. That is in my opinion the most humane and compasionate way to take an animal you wish to eat.

Jump on a boar's back and stick him with a knife 15 or 20 times. The boar normally escapes a few times and these idiots chase him around. It's cruel, stupid, dangerous and pointless. By the time you've killed the poor boar, the meat is pretty much ruined. Those fuckers belong in jail in my opinion.
Greenmeanie
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bunny,

Guess I didn't make a good point.

I'm not talking about slaughtering everything in our path. I'm talking about the necesity of hunting. Since there is hardly a significant amount of preditors left in N. America to control the wild game populations, do you have an alternative to hunting?

Sterilization/birth control may work in the Hamptons where deer are chomping on the gladiolas. In the real wild it would be impossible to impliment for any number of reasons.

Relocation could work for some confined areas. Although you could only relocate to so many areas for so many times. Eventually you will run out of places to put the displaced critters.

Bottom line is that we NEED to hunt to keep animal populations healthy. If we let them go, they will over populate and starve to death! This, IMHO, is the GROSSEST inhumanity and cruelty that we could inflict on animals. History has proven this to be true. Teddy Rosevelt, while president, established a wildlife refuge to preserve a beautiful heard of deer (the name of the forest fails me). He ordered all preditors to be killed and no one shall hunt the deer. He went back several years later to find a decimated heard of sickly, starving animals. Not he majestic animals he envisioned would be there.

Hunting can be "fun" but the hunters I know are not out there blasting things into oblivion while sucking on a beer can (that type should be flayed then immolated). The fun I'm talking about is being out in the woods, spending time by yourself or with friends, the challenge of stalking your quarry and shooting whatever you are after.

Just because you are out in the woods with your mega-bucks equipment doesn't mean you will always get a kill. On the contrary! Deer, for example, are SMART!! Ask any hunter, these suckers KNOW when it's hunting season. Today they are lined up at your front door to pork your 'ol lady knowing you can't do a thing about it. Tomorrow it's hunting season and they are GONE! It's like they've got Day Runners or something.

I am a firm believer in "kill it and grill it". I don't know of anyone who would not take the meat that they shoot.

BTW I don't hunt, although I do know lots of good people that do. Some are very educated, well off business types. Others are good ol' boy rednecks. They all have a common first rule, to achieve a quick (one shot) kill. They do enjoy the hunt but they don't get their jollies from watching an animal suffer.

Hunters (and those of us who are pro-hunting yet choose not to) are not trying to justify the brutality. We accept it and acknowledge it yet we try to lessen it by adhering to the rule of a "quick, clean kill". When one accepts the fact of the necessity of hunting then one can see that this rule is not an oxymoron. Untill then...

-Green
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 9:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I defy anyone to beat that. Now, if only those same Argentine hunters would go after their own politicians with a knife ...
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 9:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In the south of Argentina some nuts hunt wild boar...with a KNIFE!

Every once in a while, the boar wins...

Now, that's the kind of hunting I can respect. It takes a bit more balls than murdering a defenseless herbivore at 100 yards...
Mogan_David
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wolfgang:

I've hunted wild board with a bow. It's always an exciting thing to hunt boars because they are so unpredictable.

It's a good thing that a boar's eyesight is poor otherwise there would be a lot of hunters injured by them. I've been charged by a pack of boars myself and I considered myself to have done well just staying dry. :-)

Where I hunt here in the coastal areas of texas the grass is often waist high. Back when I used to bowhunt I once shot a boar and he ran into the grass. Its not a pleasant experience looking for a wounded boar. It's even more unnerving looking for him when you can't even see your own feet.

I still like to shoot my bows, but for hunting it's only firearms. After I quit hunting with the bow I took up muzelloading. The hunting is much like archery because you have to get pretty close and you only get the one shot. The power of even a muzelloading gun is far superior to a bow and arrow.

If you are interested in hunting, I would seriously recommend finding some responsible friends who do it to go with. For me hunting is a spiritual experience. I can never seem to get a connection with God in church surrounded by the things man made. In the woods it was all made by him, you get a real appreciation for the incredible gift of just being alive.

After a while you begin to feel a connection with everyone who's hunted where you are. Sometimes I find flint arrowheads and I think there was a guy walking around looking for food, just like I am now.

More than that, you beging to feel a connection with the animals you hunt. Deer are almost magical in the way that they can seem appear and dissapear into thin air, they have an incredible sense of what is around them. Their sense of hearing smell and eyesight are far beyond what we posess. Do you know why they have these amazing abilities? Because they have been hunted since the begining of their existance. Hunter and prey forever change one another.

I just think that's pretty cool.

MD
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 8:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah, no shit sherlock.
Should we then just slaughter everything in our path because "life is brutal"?
Of course not. One of the advantages we have over animals is that we are capable of choosing to not behave with brutality. It's in a lions nature to eat a caribou, because he either has to eat the caribou or die of starvation. It doesn't wash though to say it's OK for us to kill for fun because nature is brutal.
I respect those who try to make life less brutal by treating other living things with respect.
I also respect MDs decision to kill for food because he wants to preserve a tradition.
I personally feel however it's a little more sporting to shoot an 8 ball into the side pocket with a bank shot than to shoot a non-interfering animal in it's own territory.

That cheeseburger I ate yesterday tasted good, so I know I'm a hypocrite because I'm contributing to the legacy of brutality as much as a hunter is, but I'm not going to try and justify the brutality. That's the difference.
Greenmeanie
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 7:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bunny,

Life in general is brutal. Be it man or animal. Such is nature.
Wolfgang
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's brutal to eat a burger...
Wolfgang
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 7:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

MD, I agree with your hunting philosophy, even if I never had the chance to go hunting myself.

I do talked with hunters a lot doo and those who used bow or crossbow had to be good trackers too because they had to follow the animal for hours following the blood trail... Apparently it affect the taste of the meat too. That's one of the reason most of them go back to rifle after some time.

But I also talked to one who used to hunt wild boar with bow and apparently boar don't run away when you hit them, they charge ! So you better be ready to clib a tree very fast !

One day I wanna go boar hunting like that !

(that reminds me when I as a kid a said "when I'll be a working man I'll buy one of those cool looking bow and take some archery courses" ...Damn I'm a working man now and what am I doing ? Spending my money on absinthe...I should think about it soon)
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 7:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmmm, somehow describing any form of killing as humane seems a little...

How bout "shooting them with a gun is less brutal than with a bow?".

My uncle is an avid bow hunter in Michigan, and he is a very kind person and I like him a lot. I would never make any universal statement about hunters, but I can make a universal statement about hunting: It's brutal. I don't judge the people who hunt, but I do judge the act.
Mogan_David
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 6:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack:
I just find that most people who are into hunting (with te exception of a close friend who hunts with a longbow...) are not the kind of folks I like. The same could be said of NASCAR, however, and I'd never claim that was immoral.

It's mostly my urban, upper-middle-class snobbery, really. I'm not really down with the common man.
-------------------

You know Blackjack, I didn't like gay people very much until I met a few of them. We live in a world of sterotypes. Sure there are enough people who match our impressions to give the sterotypes staying power, but it's pretty unfair to lump any group of people together and say I dislike them.

Its funny that you mention bow hunting. I used to bow hunt, but I found it too brutal and quit. There are no quick kills with a bow. The animals allways run away. If you are in very thick country you stand a good chance of loosing your animal. High power rifles don't get a very good rap because they seem unfair somehow, but they really are the most humane way to hunt.

MD
Tristan
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 4:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Trophy hunters should be forced to do it with spears and knives. I think trophy hunting is usually a pointless practice.

"Oh! I can kill a bear, if I'm 150 yards away and have a high powered hunting rifle!"

duh.
Greenmeanie
Posted on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 4:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hit one o' those dairy cows in the udder with a .50 Cal and watch the milk FLY!! Beats cow tipping any day!

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