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Archive through June 27, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » Under god? » Archive through June 27, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Bob_Chong
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I get my pentateuch in English from E. Fox's Schocken Bible.
Chrysippvs
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"It's prettier in Hebrew."

"Bereshit bara Elohim et ha'shamaim va'et ha'aretz"

I would agree...although very few things are actually prettier in Hebrew...but very few translations really capture what is going on in the text...

- J
Bob_Chong
Posted on Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Listen, I agree that this (and other cases of religious mottoes) are silly and
pointless cases...I'd rather the judges defend some liberties that are in real danger."

For some reason, "being offended" is the biggest crime in America. Forget loss of privacy and due process violations--let's focus on everyone's feelings instead. Wiretaps, carnivore, and warrantless searches go unnoticed. But as long as no one's self esteem was harmed, then I'm OK / you're OK.
Pikkle
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

First of all, get it right, there is no god, second of all, quit sweating the petty shit... we have more important issues to discuss like WHEN THE FUCK IS THE JADE COMING??????????????
Marccampbell
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

rabid,

thanks for that. right on!
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"BTW, where the fuck was God on 9-11?

The fucking douche bag was half drunk lying in bed masturbating I'll bet"

If bullshit were coccaine, the street value of what you just said would be unimaginable ;-)

The weal *and* the woe, remember- God, Vishnu, whathaveyou, made the world. Men make war. Should God (or the gods) take away our freedom of choice? Because that would be the only way to protect us from each other and ourselves.
Tristan
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Keep in mind that the gentleman that brought the suit is trying to sue Bush for saying "God bless America" in his inaugural address, and bringing suit to change US currency to remove "in god we trust".

I'm not any flavor of christian, but this guy is a nutjob.

When I went to school, I said my pledge of allegiance (as I believe in the principals of the US) and just skipped the "Under god" line, or said, quietly, "under the gods".

Next up will be a countersuit from someone that saying "under god" is part of their first amendment rights.
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Back in high school in Tennessee, school prayer was a huge issue, and was fiercely debated daily. What's the problem with praying in school, people said. Isn't that freedom of religion? In one of our classes we were required to do a presentation on the subject, so I got up and read a prayer from Anton LaVey's Satanic Bible.

I praised Satan for giving me the power to control my own life and to smite my enemies. I also asked Satan to help my ignorant classmates realize that if they wanted so called freedom of religion, they would have to also tolerate Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and even Satanic prayers. After that, all the Christians realized they wouldn't want to hear my satanic prayers everyday, and so they shut up about it. I'm not even a Satanist, I was just trying to make a point!

Besides, if God is omniscient and all powerful, then why do you need to pray aloud in front of everybody for him to hear you? Public prayer is all about parading piety around, and has nothing to do with genuine religious devotion.
_Blackjack
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

This isn't a reason to keep the phrase: it's just a simple fact.



It's also a fact that the majority of americans also believe in UFO aliens, that you can pick winning lotto numbers based on past winnersand that a median and a mean are the same thing. That doesn't mean we should be using our schools to promote these ideas.

Listen, I agree that this (and other cases of religious mottoes) are silly and pointless cases, but we have President Eisenhower ON RECORD saying that the reason for adding "under God" to the pledge was to encourage children to pray. That's freaking establishment.

Personally, I don't give a shit, so long as they keep teacher-led prayer out of class-time, but why they hell do we NEED all these references to your god in these places? It's not as if Christianity isn't the largest religion in the country by a large margin. It's not like it would dwindle away if it didn't get free advertizing time in schools. It's not as if you have Shintos demanding that Amaterasu and Susano-o get equal billing. It isn't the minority religions who are asking for this stuff, just the people already in power.

Would you want your kid saying the pledge if they threw in "under Vishnu, Zeus and Wotan"? Or if the specified "...one nation, free from the false ideas of religion..."

We don't NEED references to religion in our government, and since there is no way to put them in without excluding somebody, why don't we just leave them out?
_Blackjack
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

In any case, the younger kids have no idea what they're reciting.



Indeed. Children cannot be held legally to an oath, since they are incapable of understanding what they are agreeing to.

Of course, while I appreciate this advance in freedom for the smoldering 9th Circuit, I'd rather the judges defend some liberties that are in real danger. I managed to survive 12 years of public school as an atheist despite numerous attempts to sneak religion to me under the table.

I'm more worried about the fact that the FBI has begun forcing libraries to turn over their records for "suspected terrorists", that the process for getting these warrants is being kept secret from the people, and that the librarians are bound by law not to reveal if the FBI has questioned them.
_Blackjack
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

I think that if a non-believer cannot hear the beauty in these words, then he is a hard-hearted idiot.




It's prettier in Hebrew.
Terminus
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Chonger>

Many fairy tales are quite beautiful.

I'm glad you think Genesis is poetic.

God Bless America!

BTW, where the fuck was God on 9-11?

The fucking douche bag was half drunk lying in bed masturbating I'll bet.
Bob_Chong
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was watching the Nova special on PBS last night about the Apollo space program (and everything leading up to getting to the moon). When the astronauts on the first mission to the moon were in orbit there, they were broadcast worldwide on Xmas Eve. The astronaut in charge of giving a message to the world decided to read from Genesis. It was a beautiful passage, perfectly selected (especially when you consider what it was they could see from the Apollo window: the good earth). I think that if a non-believer cannot hear the beauty in these words, then he is a hard-hearted idiot. I mean, dismiss it as mere poetry, and it still holds up nicely. Anyway, I got to thinking: imagine if the same opportunity arose in today's politically correct climate. What would an astronaut have read? An excerpt from a lesbian eskimo transvetite Nazi anti-defamation league pamphlet?

The sample of people here is not really representative of the US as a whole, but the fact is that most people in this country believe in God (or at least a creator of some kind). This isn't a reason to keep the phrase: it's just a simple fact.

The wording of the pledge, state mottoes, coin slogans, whatever--these are non-issues (as others have said). I think if we spent less time on lawsuits over nativity scenes et al. and more time feeding, housing, and clothing people, the world would be a better place. We have bigger fish to fry, but the litigious folks in the Peoples Republic of California make sure we waste our time on things that matter not.
Bob_Chong
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

under a groove
(gettin' down just for the funk of it)
Pikkle
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I've had many a woman who's claimed to have spent a night "under god." So in that regard, put it on everything and anything!
Albertcamus
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 6:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

yes it might be a waste of time,I remember when I was six,saying the word "god" meant absolutly nothing to me.I knew the definition though,there are better avenues to pursue legally than this.
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You want God? I'll give you God:
http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_7514.swf
Traineraz
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Bun-Bun -

You're right on both counts.

Tom Brokaw tells us that "under god" was added by Eisenhower, to demonstrate the US opposition to atheistic Communism.

Yes, school districts usually have much greater problems than religious indoctrination of students. (In this case, the suit was brought by a father in a suburban CA location, probably not a school district with too many problems.)

Of course, the U.S. has much greater problems than most of what we see on the evening news. We're supposed to get all worked up over the red herrings (not to mention the pikkled herrings) and not think about the big issues. That's part of how the Establishment maintains social order.
Etienne
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The phrase "In God We Trust" was added to the coinage, if I remember correctly, about the time of the Civil War.
Chevalier
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 6:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In any case, the younger kids have no idea what they're reciting. I remember scratching my five year-old head, trying to understand what "And to the Republic, for witches stands ..." and "One nation, under God, invisible, ..." meant.
Bunnylebowski
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I remember a previous post which touched on this issue. Said something to the effect that the phrase "under God" DIVIDED the phrase "One nation, indivisible". I believe both the "Under God" and "In God We Trust" phrases were added during 50s McCarthyism, and were originally not part of our public currency or our public schools.

My personal opinion is that the court's decision is a victory for constitutional rights, but the school system has far bigger problems than the pledge of allegiance, and it's a total waste of time and energy and money to focus on something as trivial as the pledge of allegiance.
Why do you have to pledge everyday anyway? Shouldn't you just pledge your allegiance once and that would be enough?
Hmmm, can't seem to find the forest because all these damn trees are in the way...

One nation under Satan.
Chevalier
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 5:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes! Thank you, Justin. By the way, I like the momentum of your poem. Of all of them, in fact.
Chrysippvs
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Nunc ex machina!"

Maybe you meant "Nihil ex machina!"?
Chevalier
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 5:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nothing bless America!
May nothing have mercy on your soul!
In Nothing We Trust!
Nunc ex machina!
Traineraz
Posted on Wednesday, June 26, 2002 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For anyone who missed the news today, or lives in another country where people aren't riveted by every little thing that happens in the States, the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the United States Pledge of Allegiance is unconstitutional. The use of the words "under god" in the closing phrases (". . . one nation, under god, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.") was determined to amount to the establishment of religion. The justices' opinion stated that it was no different than saying, ". . . one nation, under Zeus" or "under Vishnu."

IMO, this decision is LONG overdue. I believe the next step should be to remove "In god we trust" from the U.S. currency, and put a green fairy in the place of the all-seeing freemason pyramid eye thingy. Hey, dollars ARE green . . .

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