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Arafat calls for free elections, new ...

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » Arafat calls for free elections, new US Chief Executive « Previous Next »

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Archive through June 29, 2002Jdm25 6-29-02  2:35 pm
Archive through July 03, 2002Tristan25 7-3-02  4:52 am
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Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Okee dokee Hobby chokee!
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tristan,

"...as for being a big rich person/corporation meaning you have a greater likelihood of being a bad person is poppycock and rhetoric"

I never said that a rich person is more likely to be a bad person. Poor and rich are equally likely to be bad. The difference is that the rich have the power to inflict much more harm on others (and they do). As such their actions need to be curtailed much more severely than the actions of the poor. If the differential between rich and poor is narrowed then we have power more evenly spread, leading to a safer environment for all.


"But I think you are prejudiced against those that are rich, or big businesses, based purely off the actions of a slice of that demographic."

Do you really believe that the likes of the Enron and Worldcom affairs are the exception? They are just the tip of a very rotten iceberg.

The Worldcom book-cooking was so crude and unsophisticated that only a bent auditor could fail to notice it. A little bit more craft would probably have resulted in the fraud never coming to light. But Worldcom obviously felt so safe and secure carrying out the fraud that they felt it was not necessary to bother going to any effort to cover their tracks. That is worrying. It indicates that corporations are so blase about fraud and that they consider it to be normal, routine, business practice. Share-holding Joe-public is just a sap having the wool pulled over his eyes. And the same share-holding Joe-public looks with admiration on the captains of industry who are shafting him and growing fat on the proceeds.

You'd be better off selling any shares you have and stuffing the money under your mattress. You'll make no interest but you'll have less likelihood of your money being stolen.

Hobgoblin
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pikkle,

You base your presumption about me on the basis that what I want to be most of all is wealthy. I am not interested in being 'filthy rich', becoming finacially wealthy is not of my goals in life. I am happy with what I earn. I have a small terraced house (2 bedroomed) that fulfils my needs, a small car to get me from A to B, food in my belly, good friends, a good wife, hobbies that interest me, and a job that I look forward to doing every day. My moderate salary (just slightly over national average) enables me to fund all of the things mentioned above without me going into debt. Why should I be jealous of someone who has much more money than me? At the end of Thursday next week I have my 6 weeks school summer holidays, loads of time for my hobbies. I'll be out enjoying myself all summer (this summer I've a maximum of 3 days work getting my classroom etc. sorted for the new class next year). What exactly have I to be jealous of?

Hobgoblin
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hobby... I never said that how hard a person works equates to how much he should make!!! I said that, along with ingenuity, motivation, drive, etc... all these things can contribute to the making of a persons fortune. It does not always have to do with hard work as I know many many people who do just that, bust their ass and are no where close to being rich... nor am I. Yet, I fault no one for attaining that position and believe everything they have they should be able to keep... most of what you speak is jealousy and that if you were in their same position, filthy rich, you'd switch your tune in a second... I'm telling you right now what I'm singing about and the only point I'm missing is the one I find ridiculous to begin with.
Tristan
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 2:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hobby- I respect your position, and even agree with it to a very large degree. But I think you are prejudiced against those that are rich, or big businesses, based purely off the actions of a slice of that demographic.

And as for being a big rich person/corporation meaning you have a greater likelihood of being a bad person is poppycock and rhetoric. I know lots of poor people. I grew up poor... really really poor. And a lot of the people I knew then were assholes.

Now that I'm not poor (I'm not wealthy... I get by, paycheck to paycheck) I see more people, and the asshole average is about the same.

The big problem I see is expecting that rich folks/big business are expected to be nice and caring, regardless of the consequences. That's not realitic, not is it fair.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Just because you're not a big giant doesn't make you a good person."

No, but you've probably got a greater likelihood of being one.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There goes Pikkle missing the point again.

I'm not talking about working hard for your money and all that. But if I was to say "Rob from the poor and give to the rich!" you'd probably cheer and say it was a good idea as if robbing from the poor equated to hard work. You'd probably applaude as your CEO slashed the wages of you and your peers (and made your working conditions worse) in order to give himself and his cronies huge 'performance' bonuses. Afterall it's him that's doing all the hard work and not you.

You should also recognise that the amount of money that a person earns does not necessarily equate to how hard they work. Many people are motivated by things other than money. To use the financial wealth of a person to judge how hard that person has worked is crap. Many major companies are quite literally run by a bunch of thieves and con-men, Enron and Worldcom are only the unlucky ones who got caught, just the tip of the iceberg. Who do these people steal from? They steal from Joe-public, they steal from the likes of you Pikkle. But then that's OK because since they're very rich they must be very hard-working people. Bollocks, these people will do everything they can to make money, lie, cheat, steal, destroy. They're about as deserving of their vast wealth as a crack-dealer is of his.

The fallacy that as a whole those who are rich have earned their wealth because they are much, much more hard-working and deserving than those who are not rich is a lie promoted by those who have most money. They promote it to protect and justify their position. If you swallow this lie then you're a sap.

Hobgoblin
Tristan
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The problem is that the "poor" that are ever so deserving will never learn to do for themselves. Meanwhile, my taxes that I pay continue to fund them.

Personally, the problem that I see is so many people have their eyes out for the "big evils" of American consumerism that they tend to ignore the things that are just as bad.

Or, like Hobby, they downplay it when it happens. Nepal, in the example he gave, did the same sort of things that Enron, Xerox, and Worldcom are getting nailed for. But it's ok for them, because they're not a mega-corporation.

I just don't see how that makes sense.

Just because you're not a big giant doesn't make you a good person.
Traineraz
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rob from the . . . the . . . the THEM, and give to the most deserving (ME!).

GIMME GIMME GIMME!!
Tinkerbell
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here we go again. Am I in for another hazing? Alrighty then, let me give you some fuel. I'm a 44DDD. Kinda goes with the name, doesn't it? Wait, we're supposed to be talking about Arafat.

*poof*

Tinky dissapears. Time to make the donuts.
Pikkle
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's probably not wise to discuss your chest in "The Monkey Hole"
Tinkerbell
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

sniffle, pout. Oh, it feels good to get that off my chest.
Pikkle
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 2:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I like it when I earn money, I keep money, I don't care how much I make, even if it's billions of dollars... that's exactly why I think the tax system sucks, you are penalized for being more productive, more ingenuitive, more educated, more motivated... I'm totally in flavor of a flat tax, across the board, everyone pays 'x' percentage and that's that. Now, the liberal crying may begin...
Tinkerbell
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

That's why I always hide my stash. No need to be ostentatious. That's asking for trouble. I like quiet money.
Pikkle
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

No it doesn't... fuck that bullshit, if I make my wealth through hard work, ingenuity and effort, the last thing I want is for some fucking dead beat getting part of my earnings for being lazy, stupid and unmotivated... communism failed, socialism is right behind, get with the times Hobby...
Oh yeah, and God Save the Queen!
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Rob from the rich to give to the poor"

Well it makes a pleasant, fucking change from what usually happens.

Hobgoblin
Tinkerbell
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rob from the rich to give to the poor. All fairy tales have a moral.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

All I have to say about the sun is that it shines out of my arse.
Pikkle
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Did you say something about the sun?
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tristan,

'...to blindly turn an eye to something because it's percieved as 'better' than something else is dangerous, and foolhardy.'

But that is what we do every day of our lives. We make choices and judgements about which actions are 'better' than others. Morality is based on whether an action is 'better' or 'worse' than another action. There is no such thing as a definite 'good' or 'bad' action. They all form part of the same continuum and our judgement as to where an action lies on this continuum is based on our cultural (and other) baggage. Taking into account my cultural (and other) baggage I say the Nepalese committed no great crime in getting one over on the UN in this case.

Hobgoblin
Tristan
Posted on Monday, July 8, 2002 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

And what happens when we find out that brave little Nepal is just as bad as the Satanic US/UK/German Triumverate Of Really Really Bad States?

The fact that the government is going to condone cheating the UN would indicate that the Nepal Government is just as bad as Worldcom, Nike and all those others.

Don't get me wrong... I hate the majority of the Mega-corporations as much as the next guy. But to blindly turn an eye to something because it's percieved as 'better' than something else is dangerous, and foolhardy.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Sunday, July 7, 2002 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tristan,

I'm not making an exception for Nepal, but yes I'd rather they helped themselves to a tiny slice of the world's capital than a major transnational corporation did.

Companies lie, cheat and steal in order to get their hands on as much money as they can. Just because they often do this within the parameters of national laws doesn't make it any less dishonest. When an act is committed, it is the motivation behind committing an act that determines whether or not the act is justifiable. The legality of an act has absolutely no bearing on whether the act is justifiable or not.

So if you are expecting me to be outraged by Nepal working the system to get a bit of extra cash, well I'm afraid you will be disappointed.

Hobgoblin
Tristan
Posted on Thursday, July 4, 2002 - 11:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So it's ok for Nepal to lie, cheat and steal, but not anyone else? I think that a double standard of that nature is ludicrous.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Wednesday, July 3, 2002 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'd far rather the Nepalese government took a tiny little slice of the 'West's' pot of money than it went to the CEOs of Shell Oil or McDonalds. Just like I'd far rather a poverty stricken, hungry, homeless person helped himself to a few extra pounds (or dollars) of 'extra' social security than some rich, pampered, overfed CEO got away with using clever 'creative accounting' to worm his way through some dubious legal tax loophole in order to buy himself a new luxury villa.

Well done Nepal!

Hobgoblin

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