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Archive through July 19, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » Arts & Other Philosophical Sundries » test » FILM FORUM » Archive through July 19, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank god I'm finally one of the despised elitists!


NOT!
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Har har. Just kiddin'. No, I don't think I've read Dali's stuff.
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Elitist.
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Being that most persons aren't acquainted with Dali's literary contributions to the Surrealist Movement, it's not a suprise that you hold that opinion as well... perhaps you should read some of his works sometime, they're pretty amazing for being just a passerby. All melting clocks aside that is...
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, I'm not trying to knock Dali, either. But the general public tend to see him as the total embodiment of Surrealism, when there was so much more going on -- most of it in literature. Dali does get a very bad rap these days for that reason. I think he makes more sense as an independant operator.
Barsnake
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Didn't Ted Kazinski (the Unibomber) issue a Manifesto?
http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~rahul/Misc/unibomber.html
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Are manifestos even created anymore?"

Yeah, but nobody reads them anymore. Time was you could get a good riot going over an art manifesto.
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dali is obviously THE major figure in "surreal painting", but the Surrealists with a capital "S" was a real organization with a membership and an aesthetic charter and all, and Dali's involvement was pretty slight. Dali joined the group in 1930 (a good 12 years after it's real beginnings) and he was literally, "put on trial" for crimes against Surrealism in February of 1934. Dali was like other important artists (including Artaud and Duchamp) who were just too independent to really be anything but peripheral to the group. Breton, who ran the whole show, tended to have intense but short-lived infatuations with people. He praised him at first, but quickly took to calling Salvador Dali "Avidas Dollars".
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was the poor dumb fuck who had to proof read everything... only because some stupid steelworker beat the professor to be at Scrabble regularly! And she was quite in love with Dali...
Chevalier
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I can only imagine what your dreams were like for those three years ...
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well, unbeknownst to you all, I lived with a woman for three years who was writing her doctoral dis on the Spanish Surrealist movement of the 1920's and 30's... I couldn't get away from it dammit!!!
Chevalier
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Careful, Pikkle: You're beginning to sound like the rest of us ;-)
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, I may have been mistaken as to the influence of Dali on the first manifesto but an article published by him entitled "L'Ane pourri" for a French surrealist magazine in July of 1930 was described by one commentator as having the impact of a manifesto and came on the heels of Breton's Second Manifesto. Therein lies the confusion on my part sir, apologies.
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

That Dali did not have formal contact with the French surrealists until 1929 does not detract from his influence in the movement, nor does it indicate Dali as being another French-modeled surrealist practising in Spain.
Dali was quite influential in the Spanish surrealist movement, very involved a mere few years after the first manifesto, officially "inscripted" in 1929 and continued in the movement past the Spanish civil war to his break with the Paris surrealists in 1939. His relationship with Lorca was one of the most inspirational towards the movement. It is unfortunate though that the fame of Dali's primary work eclipsed his earlier surrealist writings... yet the fact remains he was anything but a passerby when it came to the movement. Even Breton himself remarked "Acaso sea con Dali con quien por vez primera se han abierto de par en par las ventanas mentales." (Do your own translation!)
Chevalier
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Are manifestos even created anymore?
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I refer to both, your honor:

1. "Dali didn't show up until 5 years after the Surrealist Manifesto was published"

2. "Dali didn't show up until 1930, after the Second Surrealist Manifesto, even."
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Which manifesto do you refer to sir, the first published in October, 1924 (with supplemental declaration of principles published three months later) or the second, published in 1929?
Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, July 19, 2002 - 7:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Dali was one of the key movers behind the Surrealist Manifesto... his name was synonymous with the movement in the 20's..."

Nope. Yer not even close. Dali didn't show up until 5 years after the Surrealist Manifesto was published, and Breton wrote that all by himself. Dali didn't show up until 1930, after the Second Surrealist Manifesto, even. Dali came late and left early. He was a great painter, but he was really only marginal in the Surrealist group.
Bjacques
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm sure the distaste was mutual. The Surrealists (well, Andre Breton and Paul Eluard, anyway) tended toward Stalinism. I read of Eluard refusing to publicly support a Czechoslovakian artist condemned under the Gottwald regime (around 1948-50). It might have saved the guy's life.

But check out the Mexican Surrealists (who impressed the hell out of Breton), especially Remedios Varo (d. 1963) and Leonora Carrington. Frida Kahlo you already know. Varo, married to Benjamin Peret, painted dreamscapes based on her life--convent school, marriage, travel and flight from the Nazis in France. Carrington, a good friend of Varo, collaborated with her and had a similar style.

Houston has a wonderful collection of Surrealist work (Cornell, Ernst, Magritte, Dali, etc.), thanks to the late Dominique de Menil, in the museum that bears her name (and it's FREE!). Ms. de Menil, who came from Schlumberger oil exploration money, befriended many of the Surrealists, so she was able to build quite a collection. In the years before she died (around 1988, I think), she liked to walk around the museum like a friendly ghost before the fact.

I love the place.
Pikkle
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dali was one of the key movers behind the Surrealist Manifesto... his name was synonymous with the movement in the 20's...
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well, Dali was actually a card-carrying member for a while (until he was kicked out for his sexual fixation on Hitler, er, and money), but they hated Cocteau even before the group was formed.
Admin
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

and, indeed Marc, I will take you up on your recommendation.
Admin
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

like the Surrealists and Dali?

and yet somehow, to the modern viewer, both are inextricably linked. funny that.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Never mention Cocteau and the Surrealists in the same breath. Blasephemy. They had an intense loathing for Cocteau.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

kallisti,

COME AND SEE is a war movie that plays like a surrealist nightmare. Very much like APOCALYPSE NOW. Imagine if Cocteau, in a very intense mood, directed a war film. COME AND SEE might be that film.

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