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A Belated Thanks

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » Strictly Absinthe & Collectibles » A Belated Thanks « Previous Next »

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Archive through August 13, 2002_Blackjack25 8-13-02  6:59 pm
Archive through August 15, 2002Pikkle25 8-15-02  7:47 am
Archive through August 16, 2002Thegreenimp25 8-16-02  12:38 pm
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Greenmeanie
Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tasted muffmallows
Pikkle
Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 5:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Moose knuckle au gratin...
Greenmeanie
Posted on Wednesday, August 21, 2002 - 4:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Baz, Don't forget the WNBA.
Traineraz
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

mmmmm . . . General Meow's Kitten . . . Kitty Seca . . . Pussy Pot Pie . . .
Baz
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

oh yeah...
MMMMMMMmmmmm-That Fiona Apple...
Mogan_David
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Baz, don't forget we had Lilith Fair for a while. Same thing.
Baz
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

great-
the Irish get a lezzie fair and all we get is LPGA...
Mogan_David
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, I don't know Pikkle, I prefer pussy to potatoes.

My motto: Forget the fries and spread those thighs.

MD
Pikkle
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not a very popular concept outside the cosmopolitan burgh of Dublin though...
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Very important activists they were. They'd usually congregate together at the annual lezzie fair, then they'd march through the streets with placards and chant "Who needs potatoes when you can eat pussy".
Greenmeanie
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 6:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What do lezzies have to do with it?
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 6:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The philosophy of laissez-faire capitalism caused the misery of the Irish potato famine.

Landlords sold 'their' produce where they could get the best return, i.e. they exported it. No point selling it in Ireland where the poverty stricken Irish could not afford to pay the 'market price' for Irish produce. Why were they poverty stricken? Because the same landlords made sure that the Irish were paid a pittance and forced them to pay land rents that they could not afford. And anyway there were too many Irish tennants so a 'natural' culling of the population freed up more land for profitable food production for the lucrative export market.

A clear case of profit before people.

No wonder that all Irish Republican freedom fighter/terrorist groups (choose the terminology according to your view on the matter) from the past to the present were radical Left-wing groups (a point conveniently overlooked as the collection tins are filled in the bars of Chicago and New York).
_Blackjack
Posted on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 5:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There was more than enough food being produced in Ireland all through the potato famine. The problem was, it was all being produced for export, and since the Irish largely did not own the land that they worked, and there were laws restricting what they could grow for their own consumption, the Irish literally starved to death while feeding England.

The situation is not at all unlike much of the developing world right now, where people starve in nations more than capable of being self-sufficient because foreign interests steer the economy towards profitable exports instead of sustainible agriculture. And, like modern conservatives, Lord John Russell invoked the Free Market as the solution to the problem...

...meaning "let them starve until there is enough to go around..."
Pikkle
Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmm... okay.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 8:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pikkle,

You seem to be under the impression that the potato famine was simply an unfortunate natural disaster. During the famine laws were passed so that British landlords could force the Irish 'tennants' off their land, they would then either starve to death or be forced to piss off out of the country. The whole thing was planned that way, it was simply a case of the British using the opportunity to clear the land of the Irish so that they could use it for sheep grazing.

So for those people the option of staying in Ireland did not exist (unless they were content to starve to death).

To answer your question of why they emmigrated on masse when they did, well because there was a fucking famine and they'd been systematically kicked off their land. Landlords were actively encouraged to evict tennants (whom everyone knew would have to either leave the country or starve to death), the laws were passed during the famine so that this could happen. There had been famines before but without the state sponsored evictions and full legal backing no mass emigrations occurred. This time the British government took full advantage of the situation to force people out of their homeland (1.5 million emmigrated and 1 million starved to death). The population of Ireland was now down to 4 milion which suited British landlords nicely.

Why did they not emigrate to France or Sweden or Germany? Well because they don't speak English and it's a lot easier to make a go of things in a new country if you can speak the language. That along with the fact that ships were encouraging them to set sail for America because you needed people out there (to help displace the native Americans no doubt). And don't kid yourself that they all went to America, a very large number went to mainland Britain and a fair number went to Australia.

The idea that the Irish emmigrants during the potato famine all went to America is a myth perpetuated in the Plastic-Paddy bars of Chicago and New York. The idea that they choose to do so because the wanted to increase their opportunities for advancement is bollocks, they went out of desperation because not to go meant certain starvation.
Pikkle
Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 6:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Isn't it lovely how the British can generalize the way they do...

"Hey, I'm hungry, let's hop on that ship!"
"Okay! Sure beats Black '47, eh mate?"

They Irish had been oppressed by the British for centuries, living in poverty, being discriminated against at every turn... so why did they all emigrate when they did to where they did? Why not just go to France or Sweden or Germany? There was no potato blight in those countries or the rest of Europe, was there? So why'd the majority of the Irish during the famine hop on ships and sail across the Atlantic, a very treacharous journey at the time, to America, a still very unproven land? Might it have been opportunity as opposed to survival? A little of both? They weren't forced to come here though, now were they?
Why is it to this day the Irish still come to America in droves, especially when the Irish economy is now one of the most robust in Europe? Opportunity. The same reason people from every country on this planet come here, rich and poor. Culture doesn't make you comfortable or rich, opportunity does.
And no one was forced to come here. Circumstances prevailed at times that made this the optimal choice for survival for some, yes but forced, no. The Native Americans were forced to leave their land, the Irish and the rest of the world weren't forced to come here.
Passing laws making it easier to get evicted is a little different than having an army walk into your town and systematically slaughter you because you didn't want to move to the desert.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 4:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pikkle,

During the famine the British passed laws to make it much easier for landlords to evict their tennants at a whim (with 48 hours notice). A lot more profitable to have grass-eating sheep than starving potato farmers (with nothing to farm) on your land (or rather the confiscated land that once belonged to the starving people who are now the rent-paying tennants). And if they refused to leave their house then of course there was the law that made demolishing a house with the family in it a mere misdemeanour punishable by a small fine. You may be interested in a quote made by Lord Broughman in 1846 in the House of Lords.

"Undoubtedly it is the landlord's right to do as he pleases, and if he abstained he conferred a favor and was doing an act of kindness. If, on the other hand, he choose to stand on his right, the tenants must be taught by the strong arm of the law that they had no power to oppose or resist...property would be valueless and capital would no longer be invested in cultivation of the land if it were not acknowledged that it was the landlord's undoubted and most sacred right to deal with his property as he wished."

Is this your notion of people being made a bit uncomfortable? Your views would have been very much in line with the Ireland's British rulers at the time.

Where did these people go, starving and with no home? Not surprising that many got on the nearest ship without a great deal of care about which land it was headed for because surely anything would be better than certain starvation. Not a lot of freedom of choice involved.Its a bit like saying that Kosovans chose to emmigrate to Albania.

The British government's role in the Irish Potato Famine and the mass emmigrations is only a hair's breadth away from genocide. A long way from being made to feel a bit uncomfortable.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2002 - 1:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pikkle,

"if I was hungry, I'd get something to eat, then worry about my future"

If you were hungry you'd get something to eat only if there was something to eat, if all the food is gone then you can't do this. If there is nothing to eat in your country then your choice is either to go to another country or starve to death. You would do well to learn a bit more about the Irish potato famine, it was exacerbated and used by the British at the time as a means of clearing Ireland of much of its population. The people who left, left out of pure desperation because not leaving meant death, they may not have had guns physically put to there heads but the threat to their lives was the same 'leave or die'.

Being starved of food is hardly as you put it

"They were just made uncomfortable for the most part".

It wasn't quite the same as a case of feeling a bit peckish late at night only to find there's nothing left in the larder and you've got the inconvenience of having to wait until the following morning to pop out and buy a bar of chocolate when the shop opens.

You say the British never forced the Irish to leave Ireland, next you'l be saying that Native American Indians weren't forced to live on the reservations.
Chevalier
Posted on Friday, August 16, 2002 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

We're all experienced, it seems.
Pikkle
Posted on Friday, August 16, 2002 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmm... I believe virtually no one was forced to get on a ship... I believe they pursued the best opportunity avaiable at the time and at the time, such ocean crossings didn't have a very good chance for survival, more so if one were emaciated... if I was hungry, I'd get something to eat, then worry about my future. The British never forced the Irish to leave as well the British never forced the pilgrims to leave (and what a puny percentage of American's immigrant population, please!) They were just made uncomfortable for the most part, some more than others. As for Stalin's little purges, yes, guns were put to people's heads as opposed to the former two cases so there really is no comparison... and you call yourself an educator. Then again, this is why this is a forum, so we can all show our smarts in our own special ways...

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