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Archive through September 05, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » Pikkle banished? » Archive through September 05, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Crowlyman
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 9:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Have you seen this band called New Found Glory on Mtv or Much? Jeesus do they suck. That happy-go-lucky-I'm-a-punk crap doesn't fly with me. Blink 182, the rip-off. You know how punky they are? The bass player(who is obviously a McPunk) has a not so fit and trim physique, see since he is such a punk and he's really crazy, HE PLAYS WITHOUT HIS SHIRT ON!!!!!!!!! What a punk! Or McPunk.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

yeah, these new punk bands are "Mcpunk" -
highly processed, quickly digested, and lacking in any real substance. Blink 182 and their ilk are to punk what The Monkees were to The Beatles.
Nascentvirion
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Punk" bands today are more concerned with selling spiked bracelets at Hot Topic rather than really having anything important to say. It went from " I wanna be Anarchy" to "Fell in love with the girl at the rock show" the latter being punned by Blink 182. I hate these little bastards and Sid Vicious is spinning in his grave right now.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Fake art. A send-up.

I meant they dumped the art out of the music.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Shit, John Lydon used to wear t-shirts with artwork by Tom Of Finland.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

bullshit,

The Clash and Sex Pistols clothing was art.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yeah, but the Brits took the extra step of dumping all the art out of it.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

there was also the "punk" art scene in New York.
Bands like Richard Hell And The Voidoids, The Ramones, The Cramps, Suicide, Talking Heads, The Sic Fuks, Steel Tips, Blondie, Television, Teenage Jesus And The Jerks...were using garage rock as a medium to disrupt and revitalize the stale New York art and music scene. Reducing rock to its essence. The musical equivalent of action painting and Warhol's soup can.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 2:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think we're talking about two different things here. Punk was not progressive. Those earnest, politically savvy bands you guys are talking about came after Punk. They sounded and looked similar, but they were on a different track. Post-Punk maybe. And not that that's a bad thing either. The Clash were Post-Punk after their first album, but still went on to make great music.

People liken Punk to Dada and there's some truth in that. The Dadas made it clear that they didn't want to advance culture -- they wanted to destroy it (presumably so that something would come along and replace it -- but they weren't too concerned about that). Paraphrasing: "Don't knock everything down unless you plan to destroy the ruins, too." They took great pains to ensure that they would not be just another link in a succession of historical progression. That's echoed in Johnny Rotten saying the Sex Pistols would be the last Rock band. He may be proven right yet.
Bjacques
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well, you can't discount the amount of political and social activity that was a part of the U.S. punk scene. So punk wasn't only two chords and a spiky jacket. There were always plenty of poseurs, tourists and jocks, but the scenes were large enough not to be ruined by them.

I got into a similar discussion on a goth board. The goth scene owes its staying power to its diversity, extending to cyber, industrial, neo-folk, fetish and BDSM. It's had distinct phases too. Likewise, punk extends to leftist politics, eco-defense, DIY and so on. The music has been diverse too. The DKs had a very musical sound (credit to the rest of the band where it's due) and sounded very different from 7 Seconds or the Butthole Surfers or Nice Strong Arm or the Vandals. It's also worth pointing out that U.S. punk wasn't as apocalyptic as UK punk (i.e., the Pistols or the Clash), so it didn't have a deadline (No Future by 1980!) and could continue without betraying itself.

For the record, I'm a bit old for punk, and I never really dressed the part, but the most interesting people were into it at the time.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So was the grafitti'd response, usually scrawled below: "But it deserves to die".

And after 1978 'punk' did deserve to die rather than being kept alive as a fashion statement and a form of music.

Punk was not just a form of music and after 1978 that is what was left (that and a particualr fashion and life-style option). Punk was not about bands producing records it was a movement. After 1978 all that was left was a following based around a type of music and around a type of image. After the death of Sid Vicious, punk became an image of spikey hair, leather jackets and music with 'fuck you' lyrics.

Listen to/play aggressive, fast, minimalist music, wear a leather jacket and spikey hair, stick a few safety pins through you nose and adopt an 'anti-establishment' political viewpoint and hey you've become a 'punk'. After Sid Vicious's death punk was all image and music, a package to appeal to any spotty teenager in the burbs. Be a punk this year, be something else next year. Just another fashion statement. Punk died in early 1978 and was buried by early 1979.
Bjacques
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Awright! I've got the old album, in storage, alas, with all my other albums. I haven't listened to it in ages, but I remember it being pretty good all the way through.

I've lately been online trying to recover a lot of old Texas punk tunes, stuff I have on singles but that are in storage. I found the Dicks' Hate the Police, AK47's The Badge Means You Suck, Hugh Beaumont Experience, Fearless Iranians From Hell (San Antonio), Hickoids (Austin) and a few others. Culturcide too, but I've bought the Tacky Souvenirs... CD since then. The only band I can't find online is the Mydolls, from Houston (they had a cameo in "Paris, Texas."

That reminds me, whatever happened to Frank Discussion from the Feeders? Probably the only American situationist punk band, they had a sandpaper cover. From what I gather, FD took it a bit far and burnt a lot of friends.

In the US, punk got a huge boost from Reagan's support of the dirty war against the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. In Houston, most punk bands were pretty far to the left. The guy who ran the main club (Cabaret Voltaire) went to El Salvador for a couple of years to help run Radio Venceremos. We also had larger numbers and lots of cities large enough to support their own scenes.

American punks had a lot of support from the independent music press--a lot of independent 'zines, college radio papers and of course Maximum Rock 'n' Roll--and college radio and the Pacifica stations. They could afford to ignore and be ignored by mainstream magazines like Rolling Stone.

I don't know if the UK independent press was as extensive, but magazines like NME and Zig Zag spent more time following fashions than supporting existing scenes. There was more than whiff of the pump and dump ethic of the tabloids, as if there could only be one scene at a time, and the old had to be wiped away to make room for the new. Whether that had much influence on UK punk (or any other scene), it couldn't have helped.

Even this late in the game, the US punk scene is viable enough (that's a matter of opinion) to support Green Day, the Offenders, Bad Religion and--yes--the Mostly Dead Kennedy's.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, I still play the music. I actively collect a lot of bootlegged Punk shows.
Nolamour
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

...and some of them, no matter how old they are, are still playing music.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Develop", "change", "grow" are all hippie concepts that the Punks loathed. Punk WAS fundamental. That's why it lasted only a short time. It had nowhere else to go. Punk was the blind anguished scream from the urban jungle that did not require an answer. It wasn't looking for "progress" because it didn't believe in it. Then some of them got burned out, some of them had to get jobs, some of them died.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was and still am in The Nails. We are in pre-production on a new CD. I'm the singer.
Bjacques
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

That's pretty cool about the Ravers. Were you in the Nails too?

I'm glad Jello called it quits with the DKs before they could turn into another nostalgia band. Punk may have been dead by '79 in the UK, but it was alive and well throughout the '80s in the US and other places. The Germs, X, DOA, Black Flag, Minor Threat, Butthole Surfers, Dicks, Circle Jerks, Meat Puppets, Husker Du, JFA, and so on. In the Netherlands, it's still big in the squatter scene and lots of bands come through town.

So maybe purity is a bit much to ask, but let's turn the question around. Jello did indeed make a career of what he'd been doing before, but he hasn't done it by playing the same songs over and over. He's done a lot of different things. What have the other guys done since? East Bay Ray and Klaus Fluoride each did an album and that's it. So the real question is, what business do those guys have playing greatest hits from a band defunct over 15 years? Or the Sex Pistols (minus Sid) doing 25-year old covers? Boston parody band The Swinging Erudites predicted that last one, with "What A Way To End A Career."

If any punk band sells its tunes for commercials, then their existence was essentially a waste of time. Or, as Bill Hicks (upon whose name be peace) said, [its] every word becomes a turd, falling out of [its] mouth into my drink.

As for being essentially a tribute band, I'm of two minds about that. I was glad to see Emerson, Lake and Palmer (actually it was Cozy Powell on drums) in '82 or so, and am still kicking myself for having missed Bauhaus's '98 reunion, but I did see Fad Gadget this spring, a few weeks before Frank Tovey died. If the rest of the DKs and Brandon Cruz from Dr. Know want to tour, well ok. But leave the recordings of the past alone.

Warner Brothers stripmined my memories of Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. Hollywood did cheesy remakes of too many good old movies ("Get Palmer?"). Ted Turner colorized old noir thrillers. Is it too much to ask to keep punk memories intact?
Nolamour
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

A profound response, although, I never saw that.

Pata...Your right...And, I think it was more of a rebellion against government and the idea of "Nooooo Fuuuucha" ...and something should be done. They didn't want to accept governing bodies holding them back from whatever "wild" anarchist or agnostic existence was desired.

Right Marc...Unless you change...hence, old Corrosion of Conformity.
Marccampbell
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

No Future For You

unless you change.
Chevalier
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"'Punks Not Dead' was everywhere for years after the punk invasion."

So was the grafitti'd response, usually scrawled below: "But it deserves to die".
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The idea that something cannot grow and develop beyond its origins is the antithesis of what punk is about."

What??!! Huh??!! That's EXACTLY what Punk was saying: things cannot grow and develop. No Future For You.
Nolamour
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 9:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Interesting point. I guess the time frame is everything and I see old bands such as D.R.I. still playing and sounding Very Metal. IMO styles made the difference.

Examples: Minor Threat and Sex Pistols - Both considered PUNK at one time yet the major differences - American style vs. British style.
OR
Exploited and Agnostic Front - Both considered punk (with more of a metal tone) - same differences, Brit vs. American.

"Punks Not Dead" was everywhere for years after the punk invasion. Hell, I really miss the Old School. Last I saw was Lee Ving playing all his Beer songs in a small Arizona hole in the wall...Still jammin.
_Blackjack
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Punk fundementalism is as absurd as any other kind of fundementalism. The idea that something cannot grow and develop beyond its origins is the antithesis of what punk is about. I don't know if punk really did die over there with the Pistols, but over HERE it thrived and grew and became a vital community for another decade to follow, and more. And since punk was BORN here (don't even start that debate), we cannot be held responsible if it aborted itself early on your side of the pond. There are more things in heaven and earth, Hobgoblin, than are dreamt of in Maximum Rock and Roll.
Pataphysician
Posted on Thursday, September 5, 2002 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm with Hob on that one. I think there were great, interesting bands after 1978 (The Germs are way under-rated), but Punk was just another Pop Music choice by then, well-established in the public eye and incapable of really upsetting anybody. Punk from 1976-1977 sounds very different than what people today popularly think of as Punk (which is more like Heavy Metal).
Perruche_Verte
Posted on Wednesday, September 4, 2002 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hob, I admire your fundamentalist definition of punk, but it's sort of like listening to a Trotskyite explain how the Soviet Union wasn't really pursuing Communism. The fact is, a lot of people identified with punk long past your cut-off date. It changed my life when I discovered it in the '80s. Didn't you see all that PUNKS NOT DEAD graffiti back in the 70s-80s? Somebody obviously cared.

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