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Archive through September 13, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » 9/11 » Archive through September 13, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Pataphysician
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

See you at the vomitorium!
Wolfgang
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

To me, from an historical point of view, the USA look like the roman empire. We all know how it ended... The question is how long will they stand as the king of the hill...
Tristan_Ii
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 5:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

ACtually, when Pakistan and India tested their nukes, they immediatly went under sanction from the US.

Of course, neither one are the vindictive ego-maniacs that Iraq is, so they stayed quietly low-key, signed non-proliferation treaties and test-ban treaties, and have abided by all the rules that civilized societies with WMD play by.

Also, the greaving process is still going on in large parts of the US. I'm done with mine, but my ex-wife isn't, and neither is most of her family. To each their own, but to beat on the issue because one is down healing when others aren't strikes me as a little selfish.....
Bjacques
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2002 - 5:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I like the suggestion of a British official. If the point really is to enforce the 1991 UN resolution, then send in the inspectors. The first time they're turned away, they leave and come back with a company of U.N. troops and a continuous video feed. A bit dicey for the inspectors and the escort, maybe, but any escalation is Hussein's responsibility.

Aside from that, Hussein was a lot smarter than my government about keeping terrorists as pets. If he'd had anything to do with 9/11, he'd be crying in his beer in Damascus or shooting smack in Aleppo.
Crowlyman
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

But Dubya keeps using the possibility that they may intend to strike either the US or the UK as his example as to why we must replace his 'regime' with another. If we take out Hussein and move in our own puppet temporary government, will the same sanctions be placed on that government? Most likely not. So why wouldn't the newly 'elected' government be able to create these weapons? Who knows what hate might breed in the future? What's to say the USA doesn't turn it's back on New Iraq and they might like to retaliate with a little nuclear force?
You may like to argue that most countries that have the will to develop mass killing weapons just elect not to, but I say look in the direction of India and Pakistan. These are two countries that definitely don't need to own these types of weapons, yet do. Pakistan tested their nukes when we weren't so comfortable with one another as nations, yet we did nothing.
Sure, Pakistan didn't (doesn't) pose a threat to us and Iraq does but Iraq can't even deliver them to us in a truly devistating form.
I know you might like to say that we should protect the neighbor(neighbour LOL!)countries from the tyranny of Saddam, but we did that before and recieved no thanks beyond the one year mark. The Middle East must learn to control itself. That's why we are involved: Oil.
When hydrogen fuel (or any other alternate fuel) becomes standard, do you think we will give to shits about that part of the world? Only if they direct their weapons at us.
Bob_Chong
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Is "threat to our sovereignty" the sole criterion for going to war?

And a dozen missiles with a 400 mile range is nothing to sneeze at. Sure, that isn't ICBM specs, but still...

I believe that Iraq will use a chemical, biological, or nuclear device sometime soon.

If Iraq had no oil whatsoever, I think we'd still be interested. Liberating the populace would be nice, even if it were only an indirect reason for going there.
Crowlyman
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

But, then, haven't we had enough war?
They say he may have a grand total of a dozen missles with the significant firing range of 400 miles.
Our only interest with Iraq is to protect our oil crops, nothing. He poses zero threat to our sovereignty.


sidenote: Isn't it interesting that I identified Iraq with 'he' in my second sentence?
Bob_Chong
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 8:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hob:

Iraq has not abided by the terms of the UN resolutions set out in 1991. If the UN has any balls, it will demand that Iraq gets with the program. War can be averted, but it is Iraq's duty to avert it. If they refuse, then we pretty much have no choice but to go to war, IMO.

You are a teacher, so you probably know that if you made a class rule and didn't enforce it, your ability to lead would suffer. The same thing has happened here: the UN has pussied out by failing to enforce their own terms.

So the UN should either repeal the resolutions or enforce them, but letting them dangle in the wind is pointless.
Crowlyman
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 4:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Richard Roeper had a great column in 9/11's Sun-Times about wanting to stay away from the hype.

I agree Hob that the pressure to grieve on command is sickening. However I have grieved for those that were killed.

Back to the Sun-Times...I was a pic either today or yesterday with a young Japanese girl (in Japan)
wearing an I (heart) NY shirt and a flag. I just can't help but wonder what some of the people around, say, Nagasaki or Hiroshima might think.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 3:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The 9/11 hype is sickening. It's being used by politicians to bolster up support for a war on Iraq (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11) and by the press to sell newspapers.

People all over the world are being told that it is their duty to grieve for the victims of 9/11. One minute silences have been enforced on schools, staff and pupils alike, there was no option to opt out, you were ordered to stay silent, it was your civic duty.

The grief over the victims is best left to family and friends of those who died. On TV were are force-fed images of grieving relatives as the cameras zoom in on their tears. No such thing as leaving these people to grieve in private, their grief is now considered to be public property.

All the media and political hype is just sick.
Perruche_Verte
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I went out and saw Linton Kwesi Johnson.

Great contextualizer, he was.
Shiloh
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 10:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Radio, newspapers, Internet, television--it's wall to wall 9/11. Unavoidable."

Not so. I've been surfing the web on and off for the last 7 hours and I've ran into 2 threads the whole time that contained anything that had to do with 9/11. It is much easier to avoid such topics on the web as opposed to watching a television program at home and have a commercial come on involving something you don't want to see. That is why the internet is my choice of entertainment as opposed to watching TV.

"At least for those of us who live in the real world."

Excuse me? Are you saying I'm not living in the real world? Didn't think so :)
Raschied
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I went and saw Ground Zero back in December, but I avoided it when I was in the city last Friday. The hype has become so overpowering. People selling souvenir t-shirts. Of course, it's New York, so in a way, that's a normal healing step - let the peddlers in to sell their wares.

I hear people saying that this should become a national holiday, and I keep saying back to them, "Like December 7th is?"

Most people just look at me funny.
Marccampbell
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Standards and Poor Futures closed at 911.00.
Bob_Chong
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

N.Y. Lottery Draws 9-1-1 on 9/11. Weird, huh?

Shiloh:
"Media free life?" What do you call this place? It is certainly a medium.

Radio, newspapers, Internet, television--it's wall to wall 9/11. Unavoidable. At least for those of us who live in the real world.
Shiloh
Posted on Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Nine eleven nine eleven nine eleven.

Just wanted to add to the media overload that is occurring now and will peak within the next 48 hours."

So turn off your TV (and leave it off). Thats what I did over 7 months ago. Same goes for reading news papers. I love this "media free life" that I live.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 2:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Flaccid guilt trip?

No. Just think weeping over the victims without weeping over them all is a disgrace.
Nascentvirion
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This year has really flown by. Like everyone else I remember that day all too well. I live about 30 miles away from the Flight 93 Crash site. The media has started rolling into that area and the president is expected on 9/11.

I think there is spectulation around here that Flight 93 was shot down, some of the locals in Shanksville say that shortly after the crash they heard jets flying near. Of course I think they might have arrived after it went down.
Tortainglese
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a friend who plays trombone in the NY Philharmonic. Last week he told me that on the anniversary they will perform "Ode to the Common Man" at Ground Zero. Because that is who died, the common man. Not politicians who make policy. Ordinary innocent people like you and me who know nothing of politics and have no control over it. so get off the politically correct soap box and give up on the flacid guilt trip.
Marccampbell
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 11:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

rabid,

you're caught up in the wheel of samsara.

Human suffering is everywhere. I'm not weeping for the oppressors. I'm weeping for everyone who is innocent: the children of Afghanistan, the innocent victims of our bombs in Iraq and Kosovo...I also weep for the innocent victims in those two Towers.
Mr_Rabid
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 11:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ah!

But what pain, on a scale?

Let us weight that scale, the measures granted us by the peoples that have held thier heavy weight these long years.

Pakistan. Afghanistan. Stans without number.

There are people, the people (some of them, some only) who did this, that endure this every day.

2801 died by last count.

And? So? Famine devours daily, hourly, eclipsing this total. War laughs at Famine's petty efforts.

Disease? Would laugh at Famine, and does, but it's hard to tell it from her coughs.

We live high on that old hog. At price to those who don't.

The dead, rotted corpses of plants and animals that lived epochs before man was a glimmer in the eyes of the gods drive this engine.

They did this because we live in our far land, ignorant of the suffering caused by our habits.

They ask us to wake up. Wake up to the bombing we daily wage. Wake up to the hell we give to others, so that we may McParty!

9/11 says to me- we got a little poke. They considered nuke plants, but possibly in mercy ("it might go out of control, go to far" they abstained, tho those targets were as easy as those chosen.

Fuckin hell! Remember the dead? Yes! Surely! But remember them all, ye rememberers! Remember the ones unsung, un media-attention-grabbing-evented!

Stockbrokers die every day. So do kids in ....stan that deserve no less of life. They don't have cellphones to call the wife when they are about to go back to work, to resist the hijackers. No less dead, and no less honored should they be.
Tortainglese
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Marc, what I still am not used to is the absence of the towers from the skyline. There are particular spots in the city where I look downtown expecting to see them. It is too big a disaster for me to comprehend, the scale so massive, so I am still upset by it.
Marccampbell
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

tort,

I have not been back to New York City since just before
9/11. I lived in the Village for 25 years and I had a great view of the Towers. I have been unable to muster up the courage to return to the city I love. I plan to go in the next couple of months.
I fully expect to have my heart broken.

Bob,
I fully understand your reaction to the media hype of 9/11.
I share it. On the other hand, I can't be cynical. Any negativity just adds to the overall pain of what happened.
Tortainglese
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 10:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This event is heavy on my mind. I do not mind all the media attention. One year later it is still so raw and unresolved.

Tomorrow is the opening of the opera season, a much anticipated event in my life. And even though I will be there doing what I love most, 9/11 casts a heavy shadow over all of us. Life is really very different since 9/11. The memory of it is still so strong. I cannot even look at the pictures and avoid being downtown near ground zero.
Bob_Chong
Posted on Monday, September 9, 2002 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nine eleven nine eleven nine eleven.

Just wanted to add to the media overload that is occurring now and will peak within the next 48 hours.

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