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Archive through October 29, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum Archive thru January 2003 » The Monkey Hole » Sniper suspects arrested » Archive through October 29, 2002 « Previous Next »

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Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Are you confusing landowner with slaveowner?
They are different though slightly related.

Dirty Granny Calahan, I like it!
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Head, I think none of us gun owners here want anything to do with slavery.

Our thinking of the usefulness of guns is more along the lines of an 90 lb old lady being raped and at the last moment pulling a gun from her purse and defending herself.

Buddhists that we are, we may experience a moment's discomfort if the lady enjoys the split second between pulling the trigger and the would-be-rapist's brains becoming part of the decor.

Tough. We'll get over it.
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 10:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This country is ALL about landowners...

The constitution was designed to protect
the landowners, same as pre-industrial
Europe where land was the number one asset.

By protecting the landowning classes you're
protecting the defacto aristocracy(titled or no).

FUCK ME IN MY HOMELESS MONKEY HOLE!!!
Mogan_David
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

This country is all about the guns.



I prefer to think of this country as all about freedom.
Then again when was the last time you've heard of a well armed slave?

I guess it all depends on how you look at it.
Bob_Chong
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This country is all about the guns.

Waving your fist at this basic concept is silly. You might as well ask the sun not to shine.
Mogan_David
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 7:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Drinky,

Very well said, I stand corrected.
Drinky_Crow
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

... guns are a right granted to Americans by the second amendment of the constitution.




Wrong.

The second Amendment grants Americans nothing, because there is no power on earth that can "grant" them such a right. Rather, the Constitution recognizes that they are BORN with the right to defend themselves. The second amendment prohibits the government from abridging that right.

Kings "grant" rights. The government of the U.S. (in theory) has only the power loaned to it by the people, and is thus not in the God-like position of "granting" the people the right to keep and bear arms.
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hob, you have a valid point there. It is certainly easier to shoot someone than to stab him.

But still we have to weight how many crimes would have NOT been commited if guns were not around vs how many crimes were prevented by law-abiding gun owners.

I can speak about Argentina. Traditionally, it has been very difficult to own a gun there. This was OK during the military governments, but now, under democracy, crime has skyrocketed, and only criminals have guns.

Forcing people to be defenseless (especially the poor, the rich live in fenced country-clubs) is a breach of the social contract.
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Only in the Forum Wolf, only in the Fourm...
Mogan_David
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hobgoblin,


Quote:

I agree it is impossible to stop the illegal importation of guns. It is also impossible to stop the importation of heroin but this is not a reasonable argument for legalising heroin.



First of all unlike heroin, guns are a right granted to Americans by the second amendment of the constitution. The right to protect oneself is something that many americans take very seriously. I have a hard time following our heroin analogy. The point that I've been trying to make is that not only is it a bad idea to ban guns, but that it's impossible.


Quote:

As for becoming skilled at a difficult craft, yes it is possible but it takes time, effort and full-time dedication. Very few people have either the time or the patience for this. How many people on this forum manage to make quality absinthe? Only a very small handfull.



How many people do you need? One skilled expert could make hundreds if not thousands of guns in a year. A ban on guns would cause the street price of illegal guns to skyrocket. This would provide ample incentive for those with the proper skills to begin supplying the market.


Quote:

I really disagree with you that any skilled craft can be mastered in a short space of time.



We are talking about a craft here, one does not have to be an artist to produce a reliable working firearm. There are many skilled machinists in this country who could begin building firearms today if only they wanted to. Often working class people are the same people who join organizations like the NRA and they are the people who take the right to bear arms very seriously.
Wolfgang
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Is it possible to ban human stupidity ?
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 1:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

MD,

I agree it is impossible to stop the illegal importation of guns. It is also impossible to stop the importation of heroin but this is not a reasonable argument for legalising heroin.

As for becoming skilled at a difficult craft, yes it is possible but it takes time, effort and full-time dedication. Very few people have either the time or the patience for this. How many people on this forum manage to make quality absinthe? Only a very small handfull.

I really disagree with you that any skilled craft can be mastered in a short space of time. Throughout history (at least until very recently anyway) craftsmen have been held in high status because their skill meant they could produce things that others could not. Next thing you'll be advertising a 2 week intensive crash course in water-colour painting for people who want to be able to paint like Turner (such things wouldn't surprise me in our impatient 'I want it and I want it now' society).

If someone want's to make a gun in his garage after he comes home from work then fine, only I'd rather he pulled the trigger on the finished article as I certainly wouldn't want to.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Doc,

I'm not blaming guns for violence. The root cause of all violence is people, however free availabilty of tools to help them inflict violence makes it more easy for them to do so. I'm also not naive enough to believe that a gun ban will stop all people who wish to use guns from doing so, but it will stop some incidents. Although I know that people who really want to go to the effort of getting a gun will do so illegally, this is not in itself a valid argument against banning guns.
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

the spikes were on the inside though.
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pantagruel made me a spiked bodice.
Mogan_David
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

Your points are excellent, very well said.

Hobgoblin,
The point that I was actually trying to make was that IF you could stop the importation of guns, people would just build them themselves. However it is impossible to stop the importation of guns therefore gun control is a doubly hopeless endeavor.

One last point about building guns.

Quote:

Yes but these guys are not your average 'Joe-public', they are skilled craftsmen who've devoted many years to their craft. And your average garden shed is not kitted out like a high-school metal shop. But its not about the technology involved its about the human expertise involved.



Substitute absinthe for guns in the above quote and you'll see how silly this statement really is. If you want to learn something bad enough you'll learn it and become proficient in a very short time.

MD
Dr_Ordinaire
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hobster:

In Switzerland there is, by law, a rifle in every house. When I was there, in '82, it was a bolt-action rifle. Now, I'm sure they have auto.

In Israel there is a machine gun in every house.

Murders in Switzerland? Nil. Murders in Israel? (Besides those with government sanction) Nil.

On the other hand, there were very few guns used in Rwanda when Hutus and Tutsis killed each other in the six figures. Lack of Kalashnikovs did not impede them from skewering people on a long stick and throwing them in the river, or those mothers (literally!) who congregated in a room children from the other tribe and bludgeoned them to death.

It would be very nice and tidy, Hob, to blame guns for violence. Fact is, violence is ONLY related to how fucked-up you are as a culture.
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Along the Pakistani/Afghan border, there are hundreds of shops making Kalashnikovs which are virtually indistinguishable from the real things, right down to the serial numbers, and they are using tools no more sophisticated than you would find in the average high-school metal shop."

Yes but these guys are not your average 'Joe-public', they are skilled craftsmen who've devoted many years to their craft. And your average garden shed is not kitted out like a high-school metal shop. But its not about the technology involved its about the human expertise involved. I've watched a skilled armour-maker create fabulous helmets, real works of art, in a small garden shed, using little more than a hammer, a cheap electric drill, a couple of metal anvils and a wooden bench. I could buy all the equipment he used for about £300 but I still could not make anything remotely approaching the stuff he makes.

If I was into guns would I buy one from a craftsman in North Pakistan? Yes. Would I buy one from a guy in the next street who makes them in his garden shed after he gets home from his day job? Definitely not, I don't fancy getting my face blown off.
Head_Prosthesis
Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 4:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

...no more sophisticated than you would find in the average high-school metal shop.




Funny you mention that...

Years ago, a machine shop teacher
in a South East Michigan high school
had his students making parts for
machine guns.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

So far 4 Gulf War veterans have returned to the States and murdered their wives.



Statistically, that is fewer than the rate for the civilian population. Indeed, the studies of claims of "Gulf War Syndrome" have again and again that the prevalence of the various vague maladies associated with the supposed "syndrome" are no higher among Gulf War vets than among the general population.

If you want to talk about things like depression, feelings of guilt, etc., you might have a point, but the rate of violent crime among vets, even VIETNAM vets, is actually a good bit lower than average.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

On last thing, the gun this guy was using was not some sort of super-advanced sniping weapon, nor is it particuarly powerful. He could have done more damage with a good deer rifle, since these are designed for what is essentially sniping, except at things heavier than people. The AR-15 is based on a weapon designed for battle, where wounding is just as good as, if not better than, killing, because a wounded man will get carried off the field by his buddies.

Banning this sort of gun would accomplish very little, since they are almost NEVER used in crimes. If you were going to ban any gun which could be used for sniping, you'd be banning almost all hunting rifles.
_Blackjack
Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Along the Pakistani/Afghan border, there are hundreds of shops making Kalashnikovs which are virtually indistinguishable from the real things, right down to the serial numbers, and they are using tools no more sophisticated than you would find in the average high-school metal shop.

Guns are EASY to make. Far easier than, say, methamphetamine, and you can see how hard it is to stop people from doing THAT.

As for this nut's religious affiliation, well, the Nation of Islam is not particualry accepted by most Muslims (kind of like how Jews feel about the "Jews for Jesus", I suspect), and an awful lot of its converts are less interested in religion than with making a statement about their racial identity. No pious Muslim would say "I am God."
Lordhobgoblin
Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

MD

"What is a gun really, but a pipe and a little hardware. Do you think if guns were outlawed that they couldn't be built by people who wanted them? Do you know that you can make smokeless powder with nitric acid and cotton balls?"

It may be easy to make a gun in your shed out of bits of pipe and stuff, but you'd be lucky to be able to hit a tin bucket from 30 feet with a gun like this. You certainly wouldn't be able to pick off victims by sniping from a distance.

I do agree with you that banning guns will not necessarilly remove guns from hardened criminals or the likes of a psychopathic sniper. Guns are banned in the UK and serious criminal still carry them and use them. However what a ban would lessen is incidents such as kids getting hold of their parents legally held guns and going on shooting sprees such as Columbine High.
Mogan_David
Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's strange to me how people on the left blame the gun and not the maniac weilding the weapon.
Are you folks seriously telling me that had it not been for guns, Muhammed would not have been able to find a way to live out his homicidal fantasies?

As far as I know bombs have been outlawed since day one, yet Kyzinski and McVeigh used them in their killing sprees. What is a gun really, but a pipe and a little hardware. Do you think if guns were outlawed that they couldn't be built by people who wanted them? Do you know that you can make smokeless powder with nitric acid and cotton balls? If the supply of guns were stopped completely you still couldn't disarm the criminals.
But we all know that it is impossible to stop the flow of guns into this country just as it's impossible to stop the flow of drugs, or anything else that people, and especially criminals want.

So simply, gun control is about taking guns away from people who don't wish to break the law. Why in the world would you want to take guns away from people who would use them responsibly? The only reasonable answer is that it might prevent accidental deaths. Well does that mean you want to ban cars and swimming pools?

When (then) Governor Bush passed Texas' Right to Carry Law, the left warned that the state would become a Dodge City. Do you know what happened to the crime rate in Texas after the law was enacted? You'll get varying answers, but the truth is that nothing happened to the crime rate. The effect of the law was that the people of Texas became a little more free. People who felt that a gun might make their lives safer, were given a way to carry one legally. Those who don't feel the need to be armed have the assurance that the people who are legally carrying them have been trained in their safe use.
In Texas we may have to worry about a maniac going on a rampage in a school where guns are rightfully banned, but it won't happen in a public restaurant again.
Drinky_Crow
Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


Quote:

Whatever the merits of gun control, I don't see how any random citizen being armed would have stopped this guy.




A damn sight better chance than an UNARMED citizen. And the reason many of them aren't armed is that "gun control" would make them ipso facto criminals if they were.


Quote:

I don't own a gun, but I don't care if other people have them, as long as they're adult about it.




Exactly. "Adult" (read: responsible) person with a gun at least has the potential for canceling asshole with a gun. Better than waiting for the cop from the donut shop.


Quote:

Just another asshole loose in the world. Not any more.




No, an armed and trained asshole. That is more. Takes armed and trained to equalize him.

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