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Archive through May 10, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Hey Lord Hobgolin! » Archive through May 10, 2003 « Previous Next »

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ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1715
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 6:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

They get "battered" here, they end up over the fence in the abandonded house's yard after.
Will work for absinthe.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 229
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 5:05 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Be careful when using something like a bat in your home, unless you have giant hallways or can absolutely control the confrontation, a bat is almost useless. Then after you beat the crap outta them YOU can get charged with assault and sued! Back on topic.
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1707
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 4:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

For the 1st time in my life, I live w/in shooting distance of where people get shot on a semi-regulare basis. It changes the level of what you are afraid of when you here the bump in the night.
I personally won't get a gun, but goddam if I don't wake up and wish I put the cricket bat next to the bed instead of on the mantle.
There is also the spector of home invasions, where they will fuck up anyone who's in the way. Even the elderly. That colors your response to someone prowling in the coatcloset too.
Will work for absinthe.
Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 256
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 2:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In Texas, it is legal to shoot someone breaking into your car while you're not in it, even if it's parked on the street. A repo man got killed this way, and the shooter was not indicted. This happened a few years ago, so the law might have changed. Damn! I had a HPD cop staying at my place last month and I could have asked him all these questions.

At least *some* burden of proof should rest on the homeowner who guns down a burglar, even considering burglary as a violation. Since the 1960s, neither the US federal government nor states consider rape and kidnap capital crimes, so why should homeowners? I think some states have a minimum standard, like not shooting them in the back.

A reasonable person would assume an intruder was there to steal something and get out; otherwise, the break-in rate would be about matched by the murder rate, instead of far surpassing it.

22.4/0.013 = 1800 times, UK
9.4/0.074 = 120 times, US

from stats above
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 961
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

LH,

Here's a nice little report comparing the US and UK for various crimes.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/contents.htm

You'll notice some interesting differences between the victimization surveys and the police reporting, especially with the British stats. Apparently part of the "crime wave" in recent years in Britain is the result of more accurate reporting by the police.

quote:

According to police statistics for 1996 --

the U.S. murder rate was 5.7 times higher than England's (0.074 per 1,000 population versus 0.013) (figure 5)

the U.S. rape rate was about 3 times higher than England's (0.71 per 1,000 female population versus 0.22) (figure 6)

the U.S. robbery rate was 1.4 times higher than England's (2.0 versus 1.4) (figure 7)

the English assault rate was 1.1 times higher than the U.S. rate (4.4 versus 3.9) (figure 8)

the English burglary rate was 2.4 times higher than the U.S. rate (22.4 versus 9.4) (figure 9)

the English motor vehicle theft rate was 1.8 times higher than the U.S. rate (9.5 versus 5.3) (figure 10).




Now, it might be argued that the reason the US shows up with lower rates of assaults, robberies and burglaries is that over here many of these crimes end up being murders intead. But if I recall correctly (I have a link at work), more than 50% of burglaries in Britain happen when people are home, as opposed to something like 15% in the US, which seems to point to less fear on the part of burglars.

Check out the whole Bureau of Justice Statistics site. Interesting stuff.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html
Crosby (Crosby)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 511
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In California the law is that if a person forcibly enters your home and you feel that your life is threatened, you absolutely have the right to defend yourself. The notion of a jury deciding what is reasonable and proportionate is stupidity. A reasonable person would assume that an intruder in their home means them harm and would act decisively to prevent it. That doesn't mean you have the right to shoot a person breaking into your car in the driveway. The law is to protect life, not property.
C'est ma santé
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 960
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Making a conscious decision to steal your DVD player and silverware, while it is a nasty thing to do, is hardly a crime that warrants execution.



The thing is, you have no way of knowing what their intentions are. You only know that they have violated the place where you SLEEP, the place where you are supposed to be safe. The very act of ENTERING someone's physical dwelling is a violent act, as far as I am concerned, just as much as raising your fist is, because it creates a state of FEAR. If you are not secure in your own home, how can you even close your eyes? If the door is locked, a burglar is using FORCE to enter, just as much as if he pushed you out of the way. He is announcing his disregard for your will, which is a threat.
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 762
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

I'd be interested in seeing some statistics on burglary levels in the US. Try as I might I can't seem to find any on the web.
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 761
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Green,

"I agree with you , Lord H, in the respect that kids stealing apples or other types of petty theft/mischief require lesser levels of response."

So we are agreed that a person does not have the right to automatically blow away any person who enters his property with the intention to steal. I also agree with you that I'll be damned if I'd let some scumbag just help themselves to the things I've worked hard for.

"However, if you break into my house your ass is MINE! You have made a concious decision to commit a crime against my dwelling and quite possibly against my family or myself so you deserve what you get."

Teenagers stealing apples have made a conscious decision to commit a crime against your dwelling. Making a conscious decision to steal your DVD player and silverware, while it is a nasty thing to do, is hardly a crime that warrants execution. However if you reasonably feel that your life is under immediate threat and no other options are reasonably open to you then you have the right to respond with the minimum force required to defend yourself. However whether or not your response was actually reasonable and proportionate to the threat can only be decided by a jury so therefore you ought to stand trial for your actions.

Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 956
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

the Holy of Holies attitude toward a strip of dirt you're borrowing temporarily and happen to have piled some sticks and stones on top of is just silly.



I think in most cases, it's not the dirt but the people living on it. Which is why burglars in the US (unlike the UK) rarely break in when they know people are home. They realize that normally gentle people will fight tooth-and-nail if they think their family is in danger.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 955
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If you break into MY house, where I am the only one living, then I can agree with the idea of a "proportionate response". If you are not armed, and alone, then I can almost certainly subdue you or chase you out. If you are armed or in a group, I can escalate as needed. However, if I had CHILDREN, who are unable to defend themselves, then I MUST use whatever means will most effectively guarantee their safety. An unarmed adult is as potentially deadly a threat to a child as an armed one is to me.

A criminal does not forfeit his rights when he breaks the law, but those rights are primarily pretoctions from the GOVERNMENT. He has the right to a fair jury trial. He has the right to refuse to incriminate himself. He has the right to be free from unreasonable searches. He does not have the right to place helpless people in danger without having to fear for his own life.
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1700
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Alpha and Emmy,

Spoken like true renters. When you own the dirt, bitches, you step up.
Will work for absinthe.
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 304
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

But if you want to borrow a cup of sugar, no prob!
Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 303
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Alpha,

I work hard for the money that I use to buy the nice things that I own. Yes they are only mine "temporarily". But I'll be DAMNED if I'm just gonna roll over and let some non-working, wothless scum bag piece of shit take any of it from me without a fight!
Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
Pastor of Muppets (Emmy)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Emmy

Post Number: 124
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

property sucks
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Duc
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 120
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

christ. i know that A Man's Home Is His Castle, but you make it sound like they're breaking into your vagina.

the Holy of Holies attitude toward a strip of dirt you're borrowing temporarily and happen to have piled some sticks and stones on top of is just silly.

unless you have four paws and a tail.
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 302
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree with you , Lord H, in the respect that kids stealing apples or other types of petty theft/mischief require lesser levels of response.

However, if you break into my house your ass is MINE! You have made a concious decision to commit a crime against my dwelling and quite possibly against my family or myself so you deserve what you get.

If you walk down my street and peacably go about your business then you have nothing to fear from me.

I have a close relative in law enforcement here in Florida. He has asked some of the thugs that he has arrested for various crimes what they would most fear if they would consider doing a home burglary. Overwhelmingly they fear getting shot by the home owner. The question was posed to those who had no prior for burglary. He did it as part of a research paper for his masters degree.

I am not advocating just blasting away into a darkened room. We have all heard of family members coming home who were thought to be elswhere and wound up getting shot. If you can identify a thug, then get the bat, frying pan, rolling pin, gun, whatever and have at it.

If enough thugs new that they had a really good chance of getting anything from an ass whippin' to rigor mortis then they might just think twice about breaking in.


Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 219
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Amen Cros.
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
Crosby (Crosby)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 510
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Those frontier men with rifles threw your sorry asses out of here a long time ago. As I've said before, anyone who breaks into my home has forfeited their rights by threatening mine
C'est ma santé
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 758
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, May 9, 2003 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Green,

It is indeed true. Personally I have mixed feelings on the issue. I agree that legal protection should be given to burglars etc. (e.g. is a few teenagers are seen stealing apples from a tree in your garden you should not be entitled to start blasting them with a shotgun) but recent cases do not appear balanced. A persons rights to legal protection are not automatically forfeit when that person breaks the law, they are still citizens entitled to legal protection. Force used should be proportionate to the threat posed. Virtually nobody in the UK believes that you have the right to kill or maim anyone caught on your property without your permission. Most burglars do not want to even meet you let alone kill you but you are entitled to respond proportionately, however if someone is unarmed and nicking your stuff your are not within your rights to start shooting at him.

We do not have the 'frontier man defending his lodge with a rifle' mentality over here. Our attitude in this regard may not please you guys on the other side of the pond but it suits us fine.
Crosby (Crosby)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 508
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's up there with the illegal aliens currently suing the US government for forcing them to sneak into the country through a hostile desert environment.
C'est ma santé
Z (Zman7)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Zman7

Post Number: 278
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If that isn't the most absurd thing I have seen in a long time. Next thing you know they'll be organizing into a burglars union.....
Imperial Order of Absinthe
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 300
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here's another:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=403287


Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 216
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Kill the burglars. Dead men tell no tales!
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 299
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Thursday, May 8, 2003 - 6:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In all seriousness, check out this link and could you PLEASE tell me what the FUCK is going on in your country?! This CAN'T be true.
The home secretary wants to give burglars the right to sue homeowners?

I've seen 2 other Brit news stories but I can't find the links. The Sun is the best I can do.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003202323,00.html


Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer

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