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Archive through May 13, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Hey Lord Hobgolin! » Archive through May 13, 2003 « Previous Next »

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mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 284
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 6:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ditto
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 309
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I could not have said it better than Artemis if I tried.
Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 765
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"It's pretty obvious you guys with the guns have given this some thought."

It's just as obvious you haven't given it the same amount of thought, or else your thought process simply doesn't work the same way. For example:

"Do you sleep with guns under your pillows? Why not a cellphone also?"

Because I can't disable an intruder with a cell phone. There's plenty of time to use the regular phone. LATER.

"When you have to talk, talk. When you have to shoot, shoot!" - Tuco Ramirez in The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

"Dial 911 and THEN reach for that gun, maybe."

Right. My life is in danger and I'm going to do something, anything, BEFORE I act to protect it. There's plenty of time for calling the cops later. They're not going to get there in time to do a thing to help me, so why would I call them FIRST?

"A friend of mine is a licensed concealed-carry permit course instructor (in Texas), and he pointed out once that the person who has the gun is responsible for how the situation plays out."

Exactly. Not the criminal, and not second-guessers. I wouldn't have it any other way.

"Adrenalin be damned."

Come back and tell us that after you've been in such a situation, Mr. Cool. You're positing this whole thing as though the shooter is calmly standing in the sunshine, filling out a checklist (Is he armed? Will he hurt me if I let him go?). It's not going to do down that way.

"You don't always *have* to shoot shoot the guy. If you get the drop on him, the cops will pick him up; maybe it's his third strike."

Maybe it's his 17th, but he's a juvenile and they release him to his momma. The point is, it's his LAST strike, if I shoot him.

"If you scare him off, he won't come back."

And you know this, exactly how? He might not come back to my house, but he might just lay for me to kill me, especially if he's a gang member type, just BECAUSE I scared him off and he lost face.

"Thieves don't go looking for trouble."

If he broke into a house, he went looking for trouble. And God willing, found it.

"just call Fox News; the pundits and demagogues will take it from there"

No, call a RESPONSIBLE news organ, such as the New York Times. I hear they're doing a lot of retracting, just lately.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 261
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It was only a matter of time before somebody attacked those statistics. By any honest and sane measure, the UK has far less violent crime than the US has.
Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 260
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 12:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It's pretty obvious you guys with the guns have given this some thought. Do you sleep with guns under your pillows? Why not a cellphone also? Dial 911 and THEN reach for that gun, maybe. A friend of mine is a licensed concealed-carry permit course instructor (in Texas), and he pointed out once that the person who has the gun is responsible for how the situation plays out. You don't know whether intruder has a gun, but you know *you've* got one. Adrenalin be damned. If you own a gun, you have more power, so you really ought to be more responsible than your unarmed fellow citizens, even criminal ones. If the law doesn't follow from that, it's a recipe for trouble.

If you've got the initiative on him (and it's usually a him), do you plan to quietly line up a good shot and then do him? What if the first shot drops him but doesn't kill him? Do you finish him off right there on the floor?

That's cold-blooded murder, no matter what the law says.

You don't always *have* to shoot shoot the guy. If you get the drop on him, the cops will pick him up; maybe it's his third strike. If you scare him off, he won't come back. Thieves don't go looking for trouble.

I seriously doubt criminals have any rights in the US at all at this point. After 11 September, non-criminals are losing theirs too. If, by accident, a law goes through that appears to give criminals more rights than decent, God-fearing law-abiding folk, just call Fox News; the pundits and demagogues will take it from there. Don't use it as an excuse to declare open season on any criminal unlucky enough to cross your path.


"I may have mustard too?" ;-)
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 770
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

"If his only options are shoot or not defend himself then he has the right to shoot."

I agree with you. My point was that if you decide that you have the right to shoot dead an unlawful intruder who breaks into your property because you deem him to be guilty of wrong-doing rather than shooting him out of a genuine fear for your own life then you are acting as judge, jury and executioner rather than in self defence. If the only option open to you to defend yourself really is to shoot the intruder then you are acting in self defence and not as judge, jury and executioner.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 263
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow, thanks for the info. Why is it easier to get an illegal handgun than a legal one? We don't need tougher gun laws we need more law enforcement to catch the crooks who break the laws.
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 967
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 6:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

So on this basis if you shoot him dead instead of acting in self-defence you are now acting as judge, jury and executioner.



Not exactly. Judges, juries and executioners (along with police) are granted significant power of enforcement and coersion by law. A guy standing in the hallway doesn't have a police force and prison system backing up his decisions, which also means he doesn't have nearly the latitude that the government can excercise. If his only options are shoot or not defend himself then he has the right to shoot. A healthy young man might have the luxury to try to use "proportionate force" but a 70-year-old woman, for instance, does not. The gun is the only thing balancing the scales.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 966
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

If your police wait until someone has been arrested before they log a crime then your country's crime stats show a misleadingly low levels.



That was the point, and, until 1999 or so, the official British crime rates WERE taken from "clearances" rather than incident reports, which is why there was a sudden jump in the official numbers after that, and a giant gap between the official stats and victim surveys prior to that.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 965
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Since the 1960s, neither the US federal government nor states consider rape and kidnap capital crimes, so why should homeowners?



Um, you do recognize the difference between using deadly force to stop a crime in commission and executing someone as a punishment for a crime, right? The police would use deadly force to stop a rape or kidnapping in progress if they had to.
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 308
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lord H,

As I mentioned in a post previously:

"I am not advocating just blasting away into a darkened room. We have all heard of family members coming home who were thought to be elswhere and wound up getting shot. If you can identify a thug, then get the bat, frying pan, rolling pin, gun, whatever and have at it."

Lifting my daughter's skirt is grounds for an as whoopin'. Lifting my DVD player is grounds for lead poisoning.

Yes, I would be judge, jury and executioner. Why? Simple. Most criminals are repeat offenders. The "justice system" obviously taught them nothing since they are at it AGAIN. So by the time they get to my house they have a really good idea that what they are doing is WRONG!

The bottom line is VERY simple: if you don't want to get shot, don't break into my house!!
Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
Crosby (Crosby)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 517
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Once again, the criteria is forced entry. Anyone with a brain keeps a Surefire, or other high powered flashlight next to their firearm. Unfortunately you can't legislate against stupidity. It's just sad that gun banner's want to punish responsible people for the acts of the unbalanced and mentally deficient.
C'est ma santé
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 769
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Green,
"I'd say someone found INSIDE my home, w/o my permission, is guilty. There is no question of innocence there."

So on this basis if you shoot him dead instead of acting in self-defence you are now acting as judge, jury and executioner.

Maybe he is only guilty of sneaking in your (over 16 year old) daughter's bedroom window at night with her permission (I did that when I was young, I'm thankful the girl didn't live in Texas). You can't be totally sure, but if he was your daughter's boyfriend and you shot him dead would you then be guilty of murder?

mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 254
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

This is the society that lets people like Opie run free
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 307
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'd say someone found INSIDE my home, w/o my permission, is guilty. There is no question of innocence there.
Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1719
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 3:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Innocent until proven guilty."

That's the way it is, and should be.

Emmy,

I gave up panties for Lent and liked the freedom, so I never went back.
Will work for absinthe.
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 768
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Matt,

"Any society that gives criminals rights over the rights of it's citizens is a criminally flawed society."

Your statement is severely flawed because, as bad as they are, a society's criminals are also citizens of that society. Also nobody can be deemed a criminal until he (or she) has been convicted by law.
Pastor of Muppets (Emmy)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Emmy

Post Number: 129
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

yes, i was, and am, being facetous

:::unbunches LL's panties:::
Pastor of Muppets (Emmy)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Emmy

Post Number: 128
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

statistics suck
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 767
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Green,

If your police wait until someone has been arrested before they log a crime then your country's crime stats show a misleadingly low levels.

A crime statistic is recorded once a crime has been committed not once a successful conviction has been achieved. If it was otherwise, there would statistically be no unsolved crimes and our police services would all be boasting a 100% clear-up rate. As always, what statistics are looked at and used all depends on who is trying to score what point etc.

Ultimately we rely on the justice system (not the police) to determine what the defendant is guilty of (or not). Personally (althought they also leave a lot wanting) I'd trust judge and jury before I'd trust the police. Thankfully the UK justice system is not quite so ridden with plea bargaining as in the US so a defendant is not likely to be charged with murder and get convicted for shoplifting. He'll generally either go down for murder, or manslaughter if evidence shows that this is actually what the crime was (and fair enough if thats what the evidence shows), or he'll be found innocent and acquitted.

mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Fuck 'em
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
MC Pee Pants (Fluffy_g)
Mousquetaire
Username: Fluffy_g

Post Number: 38
Registered: 3-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"There is also the spector of home invasions, where they will fuck up anyone who's in the way. Even the elderly."
Yeah, something like that happened just a few months ago not too far from where I live.
A man and his 3 year old son came home to find a 16 year old kid stealing their Playstation and DVD player. Without warning the startled teenager then beat the kids father to death with a hockey stick. After the father had been taken care of he needlessly bludgeoned the 3 year old boy to death. All for a Playstation and DVD player.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 238
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Crime control can be acomplished when citizens act in a responsible maner and are backed up by responsible laws. Any society that gives criminals rights over the rights of it's citizens is a criminally flawed society.
Ich mag Senf auch!!!
Green Meanie (Greenmeanie)
le Duc
Username: Greenmeanie

Post Number: 305
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lord H,

Maybe you can help here. It is my understanding that UK crime statistics are reported AFTER the compleation of the case. As opposed to the US were the stats are compiled from the point of arrest.

Let me clear that up. In the US if someone is arrested for murder then the reported stat for murder just increased by one. In the UK someone may be arrested for murder and by the end of it all winds up in the clink adjudicated guilty of the lesser crime of (say) mopery with the intent to creep. Your reported crime stats just whent up one under mopery.

Is this correct? If it is true, then in a way your reported stats are misleadingly low for violent crimes. We all know that crimes get pled down all the time for whatever reason. And not just in the UK!

If my information is incorrect, I apologize.
Ober-Gruppen Fuhrer
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 762
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The notion of a jury deciding what is reasonable and proportionate is stupidity."

Unless they're pumped with the same level of adrenaline that would be racing through such a shooter's veins, they're not going to be able look at it the way he did. Making a decision in a dark hallway where your life may be at risk and sitting in a jury box is two entirely different things, that's the problem.

As for Texas, unless the law has changed very recently, it's legal to shoot a fleeing suspect even after he's stolen your property.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

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