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Archive through May 17, 2003ENORMUS DICK (Louche25 5-17-03  3:14 am
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balzdeep (Swarez)
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Username: Swarez

Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2002


Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 9:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

They tried a "placebo effect" experiment with absinthe, but everyone kept getting sick after 3 glasses of Jaggermeister (control) and water!
Hell, at least I can lick myself...
I like mustard (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3414
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

placebo
balzdeep (Swarez)
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Username: Swarez

Post Number: 19
Registered: 12-2002


Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 9:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The level of GABA modulation that the minute quantity of thujone in absinthe would produce would absolutely NOT be noticible on its own. If you read the article you are swearing by, you will see that in order to measure if thujone was blocking GABA transmission, they had to see if the animals were more resistant than usual to sedatives and alcohol (which are GABA agonists). It is possible that thujone MIGHT reduce the sedative effects of the alcohol, but that isn't so much a "secondary effect" as a reduction of the primary one."

However, an antagonist to the sedative effect of alcohol might explain the "wide-awake drunk" feeling often said to be associated with absinthe...Truly, with all herbal formulations, there is not money available to study them fully unless there is a truly pharmalogic availability from the herb. That explains why the FDA has stayed away from regulating herbal remedies, and taking their time to regulate those with KNOWN detrimental side-effects, such as ephedra. If the bling-bling ain't there, neither is the government!
Hell, at least I can lick myself...
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 994
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

They have found out the mechanism of thujones effect on the brain.



They have found A mechanism of thujone's action on the brain. LOTS of chemicals have effects on the brain, most of them not even noticable. Anethole, one of the principle componants of anise oil, has been shown, at various dosages, to lower body temperature, act as a sedative, an analgesic and an anti-convulsant. But these effects are going to be MINIMAL compared to the effects of the ethenol in absinthe. The same is true of the effects of any thujone that might be in absinthe.

The level of GABA modulation that the minute quantity of thujone in absinthe would produce would absolutely NOT be noticible on its own. If you read the article you are swearing by, you will see that in order to measure if thujone was blocking GABA transmission, they had to see if the animals were more resistant than usual to sedatives and alcohol (which are GABA agonists). It is possible that thujone MIGHT reduce the sedative effects of the alcohol, but that isn't so much a "secondary effect" as a reduction of the primary one.


quote:

Their effects are often verified only by the patients word.



Their effects are verified by a statistically significant number of patients who display clinically meaningful improvement in their symptoms. That's not the same thing. The whole reason that they have such stringent controls on drug testing is that "gee, I feel better" is NOT a meaningful measure of the efficacy of a drug.


quote:

Besides all that, what else could it be?



Any of dozens of chemicals found in anise, wormwood, fennel, hyssop, angelica, or other herbs used in some absinthe recipes. Or several of these in combination, or in combination with the alcohol. Or just an overactive imagination and wishful thinking. The word of a bunch of people 100 years ago is NOT enough to convince me of anything. Hell, the word of a bunch of people NOW isn't enough.
Bob (I_b_puffin)
le Duc
Username: I_b_puffin

Post Number: 125
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2003 - 5:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

They have found out the mechanism of thujones effect on the brain. The mechanism of many commonly used drugs is still not known, but yet no one doubts their effects. Their effects are often verified only by the patients word. And that is good enough evidence for many other substances. Yes it's true, they haven't done a double blind study to measure at what dose is required for a person to notice the effect, but that's not what they were aiming to do.

A hundred years of people saying that pastis doesn't have the same effect on them as absinthe is enough evidence for me, in addition to the medical evidence and opinion.
This is the best research done on thujone, if there is any other let me know.

Besides all that, what else could it be?
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 377
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 9:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think the effects are a combination of all the herbs, not just wormwood. I have read that in large doses anise has an opiate like effect.
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!

August Strindburg
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
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Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 989
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

The best research has even explained how it works, "alpha-thujone is a modulator of the -aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptor."



The research has shown that thujone, at certain dosages, acts as a GABA antagonist in vitro and when administered intra-peritonealy to mice. That does not prove that thujone creates any specific "secondary effect", especially on its own, when ingested along with absinthe. It SUGGESTS that thujone might reduce to some extent the sedative effects of the alcohol, but since it isn't even clear at this point how much thujone ends up in absinthe, let alone ends up absorbed in the human system, that is still conjecture at best.

Nobody disputes that thujone can have pharmacologic effects at certain dosages. The same is true of anethole and a slew of other phytochemicals present in the herbs used in absinthe. What nobody has established yet is that any of these chemicals are present in, and absorbed from, absinthe in quantities sufficient to have any significant effect on humans.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 371
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

2. Proves what ABSINTHE does to said people.

It makes us Happy!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!

August Strindburg
Jefferson Brick (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 775
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 7:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

To put it differently, show ME some research that:

1. Uses ABSINTHE - real distilled ABSINTHE, not thujone, and not some garbage mix of essential oils, and not the poisonous crap of the 19th century, on PEOPLE, not mice, frogs or rabbits.

2. Proves what ABSINTHE does to said people.

3. And that proves said effects are due to thujone.

4. And that doesn't mention Van Gogh, Lautrec and a whole pile of other irrelevant shit from the 19th century.

5. And that starts fresh, with NO preconceptions based upon those myths and urban legends, and that completely ignores the "research" of the quacks of 100 years ago.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Jefferson Brick (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 773
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 7:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"For anyone who cares to argue differently, show the research!"

You show me some that's been done with ABSINTHE on PEOPLE.

The article about MICE which you cite contains these gems:

"Thujone (the active component of absinthe)"

Really? THE active component?

"Thujone is the toxic agent in absinthe, a liqueur popular in ..."

It was not a liqueur. They don't even know what absinthe is. The "absinthe" they used (and it's not clear how they used it) was HERRING!

"the 19th and early 20th centuries that has adverse health effects."

Such as what?

"often inducing fits and hallucinations and sometimes contributing to psychoses and suicides"

And the scientific proof for this is?

Whatever else that article is about, and it seems to be about MICE, the tired old sensationalist BULLSHIT and GENERALIZATIONS about ABSINTHE are blindly accepted by the writer, tainting the whole. Arnold cited the claims of Montagne, the 19th Century French quack who was mostly responsible for said bullshit, as well as getting absinthe banned, Conrad cited them both, and this article cites Arnold, Conrad, and Montagne!

The question isn't whether thujone has "an effect". Water has an effect. The question is whether thujone in absinthe is any big deal. It's not. And a thousand researchers buying into 19th Century French quackery won't make it so.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 365
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 5:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

If I was schmoozing, I would be brown-nosing Wolfgang.

Uh-oh, watch out that's Louchie's turf
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!

August Strindburg
Semi Gifted Amateur (Masque)
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Username: Masque

Post Number: 42
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 12:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You thought that was a schmooz? It was not meant to be. Everyone starts somewhere, just wishing him luck. If I was schmoozing, I would be brown-nosing Wolfgang.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 358
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 11:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I Wanna be Sedated!!!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1785
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

GABBA GABBA HEY!
Will work for absinthe.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 352
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Fuck it!!! Let's get drunk!!!!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
Bob (I_b_puffin)
le Duc
Username: I_b_puffin

Post Number: 119
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thujone makes it into the absinthe regardless of what its boiling point is. It is tested and there is no doubt that it makes it past the distillation.

Thujone does have an effect; all the research that has been done has come to that conclusion. The best research has even explained how it works, "alpha-thujone is a modulator of the -aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptor." They have even come to the conclusion that even the absinthe that is regulated down to 10ppm of thujone would still have an effect.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/97/8/3826

For anyone who cares to argue differently, show the research!
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1783
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

50 stars, 13 stripes, 2 horns.
Will work for absinthe.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 345
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The all American Anti-Christ!!!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1780
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 5:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

And a doctor sprung you from your momma. They aren't infallible.
Will work for absinthe.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 343
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

That's what I say. It's not just the wormwood it is a wonderful combination of all the herbs! Remember a doctor came up with the recipe!!!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1776
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

80c and 200f sound suspiciously close to the same temp. Are you sure both temps were Centigrade?

And thujone is a waste of time.
Will work for absinthe.
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 337
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 5:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

THUJONE!!!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
Jay & The Imp (Thegreenimp)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Thegreenimp

Post Number: 280
Registered: 7-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think I saw a dead horse named Thujone, out back.
How Much Thujone could a Woodchuck chuck, if a Woodchuck could chuck thujone?
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 334
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'll drink to that!!!
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 769
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I done read that post 10 times."

And you still don't understand it. If you did, you would realize beyond a shadow of a doubt that fretting about the boiling point of thujone is a WASTE OF TIME. Talking about thujone in the context of absinthe is a WASTE OF TIME. You're asking people to WASTE THEIR TIME talking to you about something that's irrelevant.

If that's not civil enough for you, you can always fuck off and talk about it in a forum where people actually LIKE to talk about it. But that would be a WASTE OF TIME on their part and yours. They don't know any better. But now you do. Don't say I never did anything for you.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Nabber86 (Nabber86)
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Username: Nabber86

Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 10:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good info seldomseen. Thanks for thre input.

I do understand that the "mix" boils at different temps that that of the individual components.

I guess 80 to 200+ isnt all that big of a spread in reference to complex mixtures of alcohol/water/essential oils/cyclic organic compounds.

It seemed to me that the NIH referece was for pure thujone and I am pretty sure that the Merk Index value would be as well, which is still to big of a spread in my book for two quality references.

Merk will have to wait till Monday when I get back in the office. (not gonna blow my weekend showing up there)
mattm3 (Mattm3)
le Duc
Username: Mattm3

Post Number: 327
Registered: 4-2003


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 6:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Then she would'nt be seldom seen. We need a Ninja clipart.
How sweet life can be when the misery of ones existance is blurred by slight intoxication!!!
ENORMUS DICK (Louched_liver)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Louched_liver

Post Number: 1770
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 3:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

SelSeenSuzie,
Thanks for your learned input. Now quit lurkin' and start fuckin' postin'.
Will work for absinthe.

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