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Archive through June 28, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » FIRST DAY OF SUMMER!!! THE JAPS SURRENDER!!! » Archive through June 28, 2003 « Previous Next »

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Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 840
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Alright, I'm feisty on this subject (clearly), no need for insults and I apologize.




Accepted. Don't be like the majority of liberals, who, when their argument fails them, fall back on an insult and sign off.


quote:

Half of america is thick as a post




More than half, I think.


quote:

Those stupid people who take no responsibility for their lives own guns, alot of them are also raging alcoholics, drive cars, and *gasp* have children.




Utterly beside the point I made, which was about not bailing out people who fail to learn and practice birth control.


quote:

Since when do stupid people have no rights?




I thought I made it clear that, IMO, NOBODY has the "right" you claim. Individual rights are just that, individual. They don't extend to receiving services you want just because you want them and somebody is willing to perform them. If you wanted a chicken stitched to your head and a doctor was willing to do it, should the State look the other way? But stay tuned, don't get angry and go away; read to the bottom, please. Hell hath no fury like a woman misunderstood, and if it makes you feel any better, I received a little taste of fury before it was over with.


quote:

You're still mangling.




Not. You know I like to play with words, you know I'm good at it, you know I sometimes fuck with people in that way. But this should not lead you to think that I don't sincerely believe exactly what I'm telling you in this instance. I'm not twisting words to make a certain point sound good, I'm trying to find the words to convey what I believe. That you refuse to accept that my position is as heartfelt as yours is perhaps more insulting than you dismissing me with "bite me".


quote:

Of course a person should take responsibility for their actions. But sometimes that responsibility includes not carrying a child to term. And sometimes it's just damn necessary.




Lest you think I am arguing this in a vacuum, be assured I am well familiar with abortion. Personally familiar with the process, and the guilt. The abortion was not on myself, obviously, but on someone close to me. You can no doubt guess who this person is.

So anyway, after I walked out of here in a huff, I was sitting with said person, and I told her about the discussion that had taken place here, and how tempers had flared. I told her what I had said, what Kallisti had said, yadda, yadda.

"I can only assume Kallisti thinks it's a WOMAN's issue," I said. "That a man can't be arguing it. That's bullshit. Women don't OWN any issues", I said, taking a sip of my Emile La Blanche.

She shot me a look that made my blood run cold and walked out onto the porch. I followed her out there. I few moments before I had thought we were headed for the bedroom, and now it was pretty obvious one of us was headed for a night in the yard, and I hate mosquitos!

Anyway, I defrosted her, with some difficulty, enough to draw out of her that it wasn't about states rights, or liberal, or conservative, blah blah.

"Are you insane?" she said. "Perform an abortion on herself? - You actually said that to her? - That sort of shit was killing women before doctors got involved".

Pointing a cigarette at me for emphasis, she said, "It's an option that women sometimes NEED! Do you understand me? NEED! (stabbing me in the chest with the cigarette)".

Of course, there was a lot more detail back and forth about our own experience, things in the past, things we did right, and wrong, and why, and how, and are we going to hell?, but I'll leave all that out.

And I humbly withdraw from this particular field.


Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Spoon Boy (Absinthespoon)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Absinthespoon

Post Number: 319
Registered: 7-2001


Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 12:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Clinton got a blow job. Who cares? He lied about it. Big deal. It had nothing to do with his job as President.

Bush lied about the justification for going to war with Iraq. This has everything to do with his job as President. Like father, like son (remember Iran-Contra?).

If Clinton had done the exact things Dubya has done, he would have been not only impeached but lynched by the Republicans in Congress.

Who's the bigger scumbag? Intelligent minds may disagree.


Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 800
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I really didn't know things were as lax as that in the US. Incitement to hatred against any group of people is in itself a crime in the UK. It make sense, you don't really get racial hatred that doesn't lead to violence. Once racial hatred is stirred up you haven't got a a chance of stopping violence. You've got a better chance of stopping the violence by stopping incitement to hatred.
steena faustus (Faustus)
Mousquetaire
Username: Faustus

Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 6:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Incitement to *violence* is illegal in the US. Promoting and spreading racist views through non-violent means is not illegal. The line can be blurry, though, for sure. For example, having a website, or passing out flyers, or demostrating with signs that read something to the effect of "XYZ racial group are evil, heartless, stupid people who do not belong in our society" would probably be ok. Doing the same thing with a sign/website/etc that read, "Do your part - kill all XYZ's" would probably not be.
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 799
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 4:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I think expressing genocidal race hatred is gross, ugly and wrong, but I would never deny Nazis their right to free speech."

Freedom of speech is one thing but incitement to hatred (which is what you would allow) is entirely different. Should we deny Nazis their 'right' to spout their views, stirring up hatred? Of course we should. In the UK public incitement to hatred is illegal, I thought it was also illegal in the US.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1069
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 4:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think expressing genocidal race hatred is gross, ugly and wrong, but I would never deny Nazis their right to free speech.

The right to an abortion falls into the same category as the right to self-defense, or the right against self-incrimination. It is a right that one would prefer never to need to exercise, which makes it all the more vital when one does need it.
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 796
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Kallisti,

If you believe that all women have a Right to choose an abortion then you believe that they have that Right regardless of the how their pregnancy occurred. As a Right is fundamental and supreme and circumstances or mitigating factors have no bearing on that Right.

"I've known people who have used abortion as birth control, not only is that gross, and awful and wrong,..."

Are you therefore saying that women should have the Right to do something "gross, awful and wrong"?

Or are you in fact saying that it is right for women to be able to have an abortion only under certain circumstances (i.e. not as a means of contraception)? If so then you do not see the ability for women to have an abortion as a Right because clearly certain women would then be being denied such a Right. If you do see the ability for women to have an abortion as a Right then by your own statement above you would be giving women a Right to commit a "gross, awful and wrong" act.

If you see choosing abortion as a Right then you have to believe that its right and proper in all circumstances. From what you've posted, I don't think that you do.
Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 474
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I prefer the amoral to the stupid."

Careful. You don't want to see how bad things could get that way. Nonetheless, the Dubya years do make one nostalgic for Nixon, in a way.

Here's who I like, the guy who saved Cleveland's power company, the only candidate who was on the streets of Seattle for WTO... needless to say, he's not considered a "major candidate" by those whose job it is to count the millions in the campaign treasuries.

http://www.kucinich.us/speeches/speech1.htm

"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

When people who give Clinton a pass, Clinton, that venal scum whom no ethical, moral person would want to be in the same room with, let alone allow into the Whitehouse - when those same people make Bush, a decent, likable, humble man, the butt of jokes, that's what *I* don't get.




I prefer the amoral to the stupid.
Mrs. Head (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1133
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Alright, I'm feisty on this subject (clearly), no need for insults and I apologize.

But when the fuck do stupid people who take no responsiblity for their lives have no rights!?!? Half of america is thick as a post.

Those stupid people who take no responsibility for their lives own guns, alot of them are also raging alcoholics, drive cars, and *gasp* have children.

Since when do stupid people have no rights?

Besides, its not about the stupid people. Just like the right to own firearms is not about the occasional idiot who shoots his foot off.

You're still mangling. Of course a person should take responsibility for their actions. But sometimes that responsibility includes not carrying a child to term. And sometimes it's just damn necessary.

I've known people who have used abortion as birth control, not only is that gross, and awful and wrong, it's STUPID. But what the stupid people do shouldn't curtail the rights for the rest of us.





A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Marc Chevalier (Chevalier)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Chevalier

Post Number: 1286
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Procreating is not something that's forced upon people by anybody,..."

Exception: impregnation due to rape.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 839
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"symantically mangle it as you will"

I'm not mangling anything, I'm trying to make you see the big picture; you remain in a self-centered "do loop".

"right, oh we're not denying women the rights to an abortion, we're just denying doctors the privilege of performing them."

Doctors don't have any priveleges that the State doesn't grant them in licensing them. I'm completely unmoved by Emmy's diary. People who don't want or can't take care of children should have a care not to make them. Procreating is not something that's forced upon people by anybody, nor is it anybody's duty to bail them out. See, that's what freedom is all about. Freedom comes with responsibility. It doesn't mean free to be stupid, or to be careless, and count on your "right" to have somebody else bail you out.

"blah blah blah. bite me."

So you stoop to that level of "discourse"? Just remember who brought the subject up. It wasn't I. I'll stop short of insulting you, as you did me, but I'll remember what you said.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Mrs. Head (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1124
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Why do you care what Bush thinks?



because what the people in office think shapes policy. whether or not that actually has an affect on standing laws and practices is beside the point. it makes me *nervous* that is all.

and I'm sorry, but making it illegal for a doctor to perform a procedure that I wish to be performed on myself is denying me the right to get that procedure in a safe and legal environment. symantically mangle it as you will.

right, oh we're not denying women the rights to an abortion, we're just denying doctors the privilege of performing them.

blah blah blah. bite me.



A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 837
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

er, I have every right to choose to have an abortion, with a Doctor who chooses to offer the procedure, in a country that says I have the right to choose to do so.




You have all this already, so what are you bitching about? Why do you care what Bush thinks? Because you're afraid he'll change it? What I'm trying to get across, is that if and when he does, he will not be denying your "right" to anything, but prohibiting doctors from carrying out an operation. You have no "rights" that extend to the involvement of another person, be he willing or not.


quote:

I don't get why otherwise-intellegent conservatives feel the need to defend Dubya.




I feel no paricular need to defend him; I don't like at least half of what he's doing or trying to do. When people who give Clinton a pass, Clinton, that venal scum whom no ethical, moral person would want to be in the same room with, let alone allow into the Whitehouse - when those same people make Bush, a decent, likable, humble man, the butt of jokes, that's what *I* don't get.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 794
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Democratic politics is no longer about issues. Its about wrapping what are basically the same policies in different packaging. How do you like your lies and deceptions wrapped, in Democrat or Republican (or Labour or Conservative) packaging?

Its nothing more than a marketing exercise. The parties choose their target market and design their packaging accordingly. A different label but the same shit inside the can. Forget 'pro-choice', 'no-choice' is what modern democracy offers us.
Mrs. Head (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1121
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

We'd be more honest calling it as it really is, pro-abortion and anti-abortion.




On this I totally agree. Bat calls it, to paraphrase, "Baby Boomer Bumpersticker Politics"... and it's irritating as FUCK.


quote:

democracy is worthless




It wouldn't be so worthless if it wasn't based on these giant package deals. It's like choosing a Vacation Package and you have to figure out what perk you'd be ok compromising.

Like I said, my no compromise issues are abortion rights and some environmental issues.

But as Blackjack pointed out, Clinton didn't have the perfect record there either, but at least there wasn't this salivatory gunning for raping the alaskan wilderness, et al.




A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 792
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There's not much point in voting then. The voters makes no difference, democracy is worthless.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1054
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Actually, the way our political parties stack up, the abortion issue is one of the few real differences between them. You can vote for the corporate shills that will let you have abortions, or the corporate shills that will let you have guns!

(I vote Democrat because I'd rather someone have to get an illegal gun than an illegal abortion...)

The other difference is that one side wants to censor violence and the other side wants to censor sex.
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 790
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Kallisti,

I knew what you meant when you mentioned the right to choose. This choice is not however the only choice that matters and there are a great many other choices, choices that will have a greater impact on most people's lives, that someone like Clinton will deny you.

All this euphemistic language such as pro-choice, pro-life etc. just clouds the whole issue, gives each side a cosy title. The pro-choice title gives the impression that the whole thing is a natural, wholesome act. Anyone who has seen the end results of an abortion will know that its not (tiny little hands, feet, legs, head etc in bits in a plastic hospital container awaiting incineration). We'd be more honest calling it as it really is, pro-abortion and anti-abortion.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1050
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I don't get why otherwise-intellegent conservatives feel the need to defend Dubya. Most intellegent liberals condemned Clinton at length (not for being a letch, but for dismantling welfare, ignoring the environment and healtchare, and essentially being a pro-choice Republican...) The nicest thing we're prone to say is that Clinton was the lesser of two evils.

All I ask is that the right acknowlege that, while Bush might have been better than Gore from their perspective, he is still a mouth-breathing imbicile...
Mr. Kallisti (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3553
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I don't get it. Arnie chose to
carry that baby, in that
laugh-a-minute riot.

GO LIVE !!!
George Beatley (Lediablevert)
Mousquetaire
Username: Lediablevert

Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I mean, most men don't think
to check to see if they need 'tubes tied', so to
speak..

arnold
Mrs. Head (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1106
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Em.

*smooch*
A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Mrs. Head (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1105
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well then Mr. George, Arnold has just as much right as anyone to have an abortion.
A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Pastor of Muppets (Emmy)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Emmy

Post Number: 194
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

been meaning to put this up for a while, figured now's a good a time as any...

it's an excerpt from my old online diary that i wrote while working at an abortion clinic:

http://www.geocities.com/poemiliano/abortion.html

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