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Study about modern comercial Absinthe

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AbsintheMinded (Absintheminded)
Mousquetaire
Username: Absintheminded

Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Meat, I agree completely with the notion that different types of alcoholic drinks produce different affects. In my college years I was pretty big on pure grain alcohol’s, just because it's a lot easier to sneak a small portion of 190 proof grain alcohol then a six pack of beer, into a concert! I have had a lot of experience with pure grain alcohol.

Anyway, to make a short story way to long, pure grain alcohol gives a very clean buzz compared to alcohols that contain sugar or other impurities. Which is part of the reason absinthe (the 68%+ versions) gives a pretty clean buzz vs. others. Add to that a few herbs such as wormwood, anise (sometimes nutmeg), etc and you have quite a bit going on in one drink.

I think that all of those things together make absinthe what it is, and the buzz it provides. It is certainly a unique drink that teases the many senses.
TheFoy (Thefoy)
Mousquetaire
Username: Thefoy

Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 1:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that there are three y's in Kashyyyk. Remember it from the old X-Wing/Tie Fighter copy protection days. Yeah, I'm a dork. I'm comfortable with that.
Meat (Meat_nipples)
Paysan
Username: Meat_nipples

Post Number: 80
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The more I read and hear that qualified people are finding little to no thujone in absinthe the more I agree that thujone probably has very little to do with absinthe's "effect". Different types of alcohol give you different types of "effects". Scotch gives me a much more sedated and pronounced buzz than say beer does. I have noticed the up and down "speed-ball" effect from Pernod pastis (which contains no thujone or wormwood). Maybe this is all psychosomatic, but enough people I know share my experience to validate that different types of alcohol buzzes exist. I tried crude homebrews as a teen that were chuck full of wormwood and all I got was a bad taste in my mouth and nausea. I felt nothing even remotely similar to the pleasant effect that a glass of absinthe provides.
So my point is: Does absinthe have a characteristic effect that sets it apart from other drinks? I think so.
Is this because of thujone or any other hidden "drug" within the drink? No. It probably has more to do with the high alcohol content and the mystique surrounding it (which has been said on this site many times).
Raindog (Mephistopheles)
Paysan
Username: Mephistopheles

Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 7:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The wallpaper becomes more interesting after a few glasses. Of course I dont have wallpaper but there are a few inconsitencies that become apparent. And then there is theology and philosophy. I alternate sips of neat dry vermouth and absinthe, the point of focus is quite obvious.
"I'm standing on the corner of fifth and vermouth... using parking meters as walking sticks" Tom Waits
Robert Novak (Justabob)
Mousquetaire
Username: Justabob

Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I like thujone. I drink it every day. It's similar to THC so I get high from it. Thujone is my friend. I see Kylie Minogue in a fairy costume every time I drink thujone. "

Somtimes I see nurse ratchet, or radar O'reily. As an aside recently I was subject to a random drug test, " I work in the transportation industry and I am in fact a teamster and no I don't know who killed Hoffa. But ana way the night before I turned my eyes green with a bottle of ns 70, and passed the test, similar to THC?, maybe but so are a lot of other substances.

Absinthe is delicious, if ya wana get stoned smoke a joint

justabob
Robert Novak (Justabob)
Mousquetaire
Username: Justabob

Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I like thujone. I drink it every day. It's similar to THC so I get high from it. Thujone is my friend. I see Kylie Minogue in a fairy costume every time I drink thujone. "

Somtimes I see nurse ratchet, or radar O'reily. As an aside recently I was subject to a random drug test, " I work in the transportation industry and I am in fact a teamster and no I don't know who killed Hoffa. But ana way the night before I turned my eyes green with a bottle of ns 70, and passed the test, similar to THC?, maybe but so are a lot of other substances.

Absinthe is delicious, if ya wana get stoned smoke a joint

justabob
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1176
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I mix up a tea from cedar chips, tarragon and Vap-O-Rub. It gets me high, opens my sinuses, and keeps moths away...
Raschied Britannica (Raschied)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Raschied

Post Number: 359
Registered: 3-2002


Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 8:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I like thujone. I drink it every day. It's similar to THC so I get high from it. Thujone is my friend. I see Kylie Minogue in a fairy costume every time I drink thujone.

What's absinthe?
Rock over London, Rock on Chicago.
Pontiac - We build Excitement.
Crochety Old Bastard (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 871
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Hmm, I'm not sure my post warranted such insults as "crap". I was asking a question as to why the contridiction between the 2 studies, one of which is posted on this site in the FAQ!"

Listen up now, pay attention: As I've already taken pains to point out, what I consider "crap" was:

"people have reported feeling the effects of Thujone"

That has nothing to do with any study, posted here or anywhere else. You are talking about anecdotal evidence offered by people who wouldn't know thujone if it bit them in the ass. It doesn't mean they're bad people. It means that they have no idea whether they've actually ever consumed any thujone and therefore are unqualified to give testimony as to its effects. All they can talk about is what they THINK they felt after drinking ABSINTHE, which according to Ted, Don, Ian, (all chemists, by the way) and now a German researcher, MAY WELL NOT HAVE ANY THUJONE AT ALL IN IT!

As to why the U.S. won't legalize it, Blackjack has answered that fully many times, and has done so again.

As to why no one will research it, it's because that would take a lot of money. Who's going to put up that sort of money when there's no return? It's not going to be legalized in the U.S. regardless of thujone, and it's already legal most everywhere else.

Erowid: Besancon nailed it; in fact, very good post all around. The issue for us should be legitimate product vs. crap, because thujone is a non-issue that's not going anywhere.

As for these numbers or those numbers contradicting Emmert's study, if he's right about the nature of the tests (and Ted and Don have pointed this out here before now), Pernot's numbers could be wrong, EVERYBODY's numbers could be wrong. Personally, I have put no faith in any of those numbers, because of what was discussed here ad nauseum by qualified people long before now. That people are now surprised to see these results is the only thing that baffles me.
"He is an unapologetic, crochety old bastard who will peddle any fibs that will make him a buck, or put him on a pedestal."
Binky (Binky)
Paysan
Username: Binky

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm leaning toward thinking this analysis is not so accurate.

I've seen La Fée 68's numbers, and don't doubt Ian's Un Emile results in his excellent article either.

However, that's not to say that Tuivel23's point about it being an organic process and levels varying from batch to batch isn't an excellent one. It's true, the numbers do vary.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1171
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Again, it seems like every time you mention the "T" word or "secondary effects" people jump all over you like crazy.




Well, after this, you can understand why, right? The thujone hypothesis is dead but for the screaming.
The Levitating Grin Salesman (Rimbaud)
le Duc
Username: Rimbaud

Post Number: 269
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I like traffic lights...I like traffic lights...
"Please pardon our appearance while we are levitating..."
AbsintheMinded (Absintheminded)
Paysan
Username: Absintheminded

Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good points Tuivel23 and very true. Even with the exact same process and recipe, samples will vary batch from batch because of the various herbs used, etc.
Roman Gundacker (Tuivel23)
Paysan
Username: Tuivel23

Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 1:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I was just tyring to figure out why the results discovered by Ian Hutton is different then the results discovered by Dr. Emmert. That's all... "

Pernot is a natural product distilled from plants. The content of essential oils in those plants can vary as well as the efficiency of extraction. Especially with substances that are present in only such small quantities as thujone the level of deviation between different batches can be quite substantial i believe.

Also i remember that i've just read somewhere in another post that the recipe of the Emile 68 is constantly beeing improved, so the Emile in Dr. Emmerts Study might allready have had slightly different ingredients compared to the one in Mr. Huttons report.
AbsintheMinded (Absintheminded)
Paysan
Username: Absintheminded

Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 10:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was just tyring to figure out why the results discovered by Ian Hutton is different then the results discovered by Dr. Emmert. That's all...

Again, it seems like every time you mention the "T" word or "secondary effects" people jump all over you like crazy. Not that I really care anyway...

I'm here because I enjoy the whole experience and flavor of Absinthe. I just got back from spending a week in New Orleans, which really adds to the effect. That is one crazy city!
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1166
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ted, you out there? Comments?
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 1165
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Why are they illegal in the US?



It is not legal to use wormwood as an additive in alcoholic beverages, regardless of thujone content. You can use it in prepared foods, if they are thujone free, but not alcoholic beverages.

No, it doesn't make sense. It's the government...
Donnie Darko (Besançon)
Mousquetaire
Username: Besançon

Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 9:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

--"most of it is documented on the Erowid site"--

Uh, I wouldn't accuse anything on the Erowid site as being serious "documentation". Seems to be a big conduit of speculation by potheads to me.

I think the "effects" of Absinthe are worth scientific study though. This one just shows (as did Ians) that Thujone isn't a major player in Absinthe, except it has larger scope cause more brands are examined in greater detail. That being said, 100 years of hype really have elevated Absinthe enthusiasm to something of a cult, which is ridiculous. You don't hear anyone saying "I'm new to the 'world' of Vodka, what are the effects like?"

Basically I think all that really happens with Absinthe is you have a specific combination of herbs that when mixed with alcohol makes a mild speedball like effect. Big deal. Nobody makes a big deal about Echinacea tea.

Meanwhile the more important subject of distinguishing between quality artisanal products and hastily made products goes unnoticed....
--------------------------------------------------
Gretchen--"Donnie Darko, sounds like some kind of superhero or something"
Donnie--"What makes you think I'm not?"
Raschied Britannica (Raschied)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Raschied

Post Number: 358
Registered: 3-2002


Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Trainer - only on Kashyyk can Wookies drink Thujone with Johnny Cochrane....
Rock over London, Rock on Chicago.
Pontiac - We build Excitement.
AbsintheMinded (Absintheminded)
Paysan
Username: Absintheminded

Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmm, I'm not sure my post warranted such insults as "crap". I was asking a question as to why the contridiction between the 2 studies, one of which is posted on this site in the FAQ! If the poster is right, then someone needs to update the wormwood FAQ on this site. Sheesh...

As to the secondary effects, those too are documented in the FAQ. I have worked quite a bit with wormwood in the past (most of it is documented on the Erowid site, look up Wormwood or Absinthe) and know the effects of it quite well.

Good point, if most Absinthe's don't really have any thujone in them, why are they so worried about meeting the EU standards? Why are they illegal in the US? I for one am all for it. Let's get this information back to the distilleries so they will start importing it to the US again.f
Traineraz (Traineraz)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Traineraz

Post Number: 962
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmmmm . . . How about a comparison of thujone content to common brands of Vermouth? If most brands of absinthe are similar or lower in thujone, perhaps the gub-mint will be persuaded to allow their import.

As Johnny Cochrane might say, "If the thujone ain't in it, you must permit it!"
He who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.

-- Thus Spake Zoboomafoo
Robert B (Labrat)
Paysan
Username: Labrat

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was one of those "thujone believers" until i found this fantastic site. I almost went and bought a bottle of the Logan Fils 100 until I was educated that thujone has nothing to due with the quality of absinthe (which many of the shady Czech brands seem to push). Now i just look for the properly distilled brands (Un Emile 68 variations, Segarra, Moonman's Elixers). Whenever i see a brand that boasts some large amount of thujone I ususlly write it off as a novelty for the uninformed consumer.
Crochety Old Bastard (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 870
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 9:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

To be clear, by "crap such as your post", I was referring only to:

"people have reported feeling the effects of Thujone"

Apparently, people read that sort of thing, remember it, and even repeat it. Thus it even gets repeated here, in serious dicussions by people who ought to know better, no matter how many times it's debunked. It never seems to occur to such people to consider whether the thujone affectees in question have any clue whether thujone has anything to do with the "effect" they supposedly felt, or whether those people even consumed any thujone at all. That sort of garbage is what has most of France still believing absinthe is poison after a hundred years.
"He is an unapologetic, crochety old bastard who will peddle any fibs that will make him a buck, or put him on a pedestal."
Crochety Old Bastard (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 866
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"It backs up some of the results of Dr. Emmerts study. They also found no Thujone at all in the Pernod 68 and the Segarra 45 and rather similar low levels in Absente, Oxygénée, La Fee and so on."

That doesn't surprise me AT ALL, in fact, it back up what I've been telling people here for years.

"Dr. Emmert noticed that the GC analysis of thujone will somtimes show rather high levels of thujone even if none or very little is really present."

That also has been discussed here in some detail, with involvement by chemists who have done tests such as described above, but people often hear only what they want to hear. Thujone, like the Sasquatch, refuses to die even though nobody has ever seen one.

"such as the new Pernod 68, and Un Emile 68, both of which people have reported feeling the effects of Thujone"

People have reported nothing of the kind. What are the "effects of thujone"? How would those people know such effects unless they had consumed thujone, knew what it was like, and therefore had some basis of comparison to the effects of absinthe? All those people have done is blather a bunch of ignorance based upon uninformed assumptions, misconceptions, and Internet crap (such as your post) which perpetuates the myth they have swallowed like a largemouth bass taking the bait.
"He is an unapologetic, crochety old bastard who will peddle any fibs that will make him a buck, or put him on a pedestal."
Roman Gundacker (Tuivel23)
Paysan
Username: Tuivel23

Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 3:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a certificate of analysis from a governement accredited food-examination-laboratory. I guess thats not exactly the correct english term but you get an idea of what i mean.

It's the "Bundesanstalt für Lebensmitteluntersuchung und Forschung" in german.

It backs up some of the results of Dr. Emmerts study. They also found no Thujone at all in the Pernod 68 and the Segarra 45 and rather similar low levels in Absente, Oxygénée, La Fee and so on.

I've just uploaded it if you want to check it out
http://rrc.itsolution.at/stuff/thujon.doc

By the way, the analysis from this lab(like many others especially from government labs) was done on GC alone it seems. Dr. Emmert noticed that the GC analysis of thujone will somtimes show rather high levels of thujone even if none or very little is really present. A substance called Santolina-Triene is believed to be the cause of this and the real thujone levels can only be verified by a combined GC/MS analysis.

Thats why some Absinthes in Dr. Emmerts list have high alpha-thujone levels but a (0.0) next to them. The (0.0) is the true result verified by a GC/MS.

@Dr. O
I don't think he's going to do that but maybe he'll reconsider if enough of you bug him with it so he realizes that there is a strong interest in 'the scene' about such an experiment ;)
AbsintheMinded (Absintheminded)
Paysan
Username: Absintheminded

Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2003 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm a little confused, because the results in this study contradicts other studies & reports. I know that I've seen reports that Pernod 68 had close to the EU limit of 10mg as did Un Emile 68 which has 10mg according to this study: http://www.feeverte.net/thujone.html

Anyone else have any information on the Thujone content in popular brands that list on the bottle Thujone, along with them using Wormwood in their ingredients, yet this report shows they have 0mg of Thujone (such as the new Pernod 68, and Un Emile 68, both of which people have reported feeling the effects of Thujone).

Anyway, just curious...

AbsintheMinded-
Dr. O (Dr_ordinaire)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Dr_ordinaire

Post Number: 478
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2003 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tuivel, has Dr. Emmert considered the possibility of distilling absinthe following one of the original recipes available here in the Forum?

It would be very interesting to read an analysis of such product.
Roman Gundacker (Tuivel23)
Paysan
Username: Tuivel23

Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 9, 2003 - 1:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello everyone!

Someone i know is conducting a study about Absinthe analysis and the chemical contents of modern comercial Absinthe (especially Thujone, Anethol and so on).

He asked me to help him get the word out to anyone who might be interested so i decided to post the link here for you. They're not done yet, it's just a first report, and it's in german, although i think an english version might be in plannig for the final report. The analytical diagramms might still be of interest even to the non-german-speaking-people.

Here's the link:
http://www.emmert-analytik.de/absinth.htm

The Absinthe that have been analyzed include important brands like Pernot 68, F. Guy, Segarra as well as lower quality stuff like Pernod 68, Oxygénée or even Mata Hari and Candela.

If you have any questions or valuable input on the matter i'm sure Dr.Emmert will gladly answer emails if he finds the time. You should be able to find his email Adress on his website.

A nice day to all of you!
Tuivel

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