Topics Topics Edit Profile Profile Help/Instructions Help Member List Member List Edit Profile Register  
Search Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Vintage Pernod Fils... 1900 'ish

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » Strictly Absinthe & Collectibles » Archive Thru March 2003 » Vintage Pernod Fils... 1900 'ish « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through March 22, 2003T. A. Breaux (Tabrea25 3-22-03  9:29 pm
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page        

Author Message
T. A. Breaux (Tabreaux)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Tabreaux

Post Number: 99
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

What one is tasting now isn't necessarily what he would have been tasting 80-100 years ago. Two very different products can taste quite similar if they have undergone a degree of deterioration, and much of them have. FWIW, the most (unexpectedly) deteriorated sample I have drawn to date indeed came from a bottle with intact cork and lead seal.

I've only encountered one sample of Legler Pernod, and it was useless. Without 5-10mL of a strong sample, I do not have enough information to offer an intelligent opinion.
simon pedersen (Simon)
Mousquetaire
Username: Simon

Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ted.........In your established knowledge of recipe's and analysis i also found E.Pernod and Legler Pernod very similar (from memory). Do you have an oppinion or research that might lend itself to this? I would love to find out. Cheers.
simon pedersen (Simon)
Mousquetaire
Username: Simon

Post Number: 27
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2003 - 8:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Analytical data is good for reproducing herbal accuracy without neccesarily knowing precise recipe's. But ultimately tastes dont lie. So even if content/recipe/age and all the other laboric data doesn't match between the two, then that is of no concern to me, especially if they are similar and great tasting to the point where i can enjoy and feel confident that they are similar enough for me to feel they are one and the same(incredibly similar). Being a connoisseur of absinthe(tastes) is something different to being a scientist in absinthe(Physical and analytical). Where as it's history ties the two together. :-)
T. A. Breaux (Tabreaux)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Tabreaux

Post Number: 98
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 10:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Worthy of note is the fact that as they 'weather', they gradually lose their distinctive nuances and all begin tasting very similar, gradually becoming unrecognizable and eventually, undrinkable. Unfortunately, the only way to determine the state of preservation is via analytical methods, as even sealed contents have exhibited significant degradation.
Z (Zman7)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Zman7

Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 6:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmmm...all the heavyweights have given their opinions, so now I'll give mine. I had the opportunity to sample pre-ban Pernod Fils and some 1920's vintage Tarragona last summer. Both bottles were in a great state of preservation and sealed. In all our "organoleptic" testing, there were no discernable differences to our palates. The color and aroma were virtually identical to our senses. I believe that those of us testing, do have a sophisticated enough palate, to discern any nuances between the two. For my money, they appear by all accounts to be the same, any laboratory documentation notwithstanding.
Imperial Order of Absinthe
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 672
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The two products both taste like 'vintage absinthes'" ...

I haven't tasted Old Pernod, but that was the thing that stood out the most about the Tarragona I've tasted - that "old absinthe" taste. It's not unpleasant, but not something I would pursue, either. Sort of reminds me of Segarra, but that's stretching it. It's hard to describe, but it's common to all the old absinthe I've had and I can now notice it in all quality absinthe, growing as the absinthe ages even a little. Other than that, the Tarragona was good, but not particularly strong in the nuances that Oxygenee describes.

As far as having the lab confirm your tongue, that's nice but I suspect that it to some degree comes with experience. I would expect that just as many, if not more people, those with no access to labs or concern with them, would be *surprised* at what the lab showed vs. their "organoleptic" experience.

Pernod used a lot of herbs from the vicinity of their plant - a whole agricultural industry rose in that area to supply such. I'm not sure anise was one of them, though; it was known at the time that the best came from Spain, so moving a factory to Spain would have been no big deal on that score.

"L'anis se cultive en France, particulièrement dans la Touraine; les environs d'Alby et de Cahors en fournissent également une très-grandes quantité: le plus estime est celui de Malte ou d'Espagne."

Anise is cultivated in France, particularly in Touraine; a very large quantity of it also comes from the Alby and Cahors areas: (the anise from) Malta or Spain is the most highly esteemed.

Source: Traite de la Fabrication des Liqueurs by P. Duplais the elder, 1866 edition
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

T. A. Breaux (Tabreaux)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Tabreaux

Post Number: 97
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The cessation of activities by Pernod Fils and the onset of activities by 'Pernod Tarragona' were separated by considerable distance, several years, and a World War.

Who exactly owned and operated the facility that made 'Pernod Tarragona' (and details thereof) remains unclear.

The assumption 'that the distilling equipment and herb sources would have been the same anyway' is speculation, and guarantees little with respect to the final product regardless.

The blurb that '...Pernod sourced their herbs from all over the place', to the best of my knowledge, is untrue. In fact, the consistency of materials and size of scale attributed to the remarkable consistency of Pernod Fils, which undoubtedly contributed to its fine reputation.

The two products both taste like 'vintage absinthes', but are different. I can taste the difference between them consistently. The lab equipment differentiates them easily as well. Go figure.
simon pedersen (Simon)
Mousquetaire
Username: Simon

Post Number: 26
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tis all good! :-) Artemis,i think the point you made about the distillers integrity to uphold a name, recipe and taste was something i'm sure they naturally inhabited! After all it was the French pernod Fils company that opened up the distillery in Tarragona following their ban at home. So i would guess and assume that the distilling equipment and herb sources would have been the same anyway, as Pernod sourced their herbs from all over the place. So just because the distillery moved, doesn't neccessarily mean the sources changed(at least not at first). Therefore why should they taste noticably different? Like i've said before, from personal taste experience they are so similar i can't tell. I think that people also have to remember that there is plenty of room when it comes to detail for differences! by this i mean that one batch distilled from the same might vary a bit month to month anyway, so who's to say that they dont bear enough similarity to hold a certain taste to a brand?
Moonman's friend (Wolfgang)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 895
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Oxy, I was expecting something at least similar to what you just wrote.

I have tasted very nice home made absinthes made out of the same recipe but from different batches using herbs from different suppliers and the differences between the two where similarly subtle but obvious when tasted side by side.

It makes sens now.
Bob (I_b_puffin)
le Vicomte
Username: I_b_puffin

Post Number: 81
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So bitterness and anise levels were the same, and the differences were very subtle?
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 670
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"the greater subtlety and interest of the floral quality"

I understand that. As hard as it is to describe, that is pretty much the difference between any two truly fine absinthes. It also seems reasonable that the further away you get from 1915, the greater the difference between Tarragona and the "original" might be. The main thrust of my argument was that there seems to be no logical reason they HAD to be different in the beginning, and they should not have been allowed to be different by the makers, if they could help it, and I would think they COULD help it, at least at first.

It seems agreed that the difference as perceived TODAY can be subtle, variable and hard to pin down, and it can also be obvious, given the variation between samples and tasters, but in any case it may be difficult to describe. It's obviously not the difference between garbage absinthe and good absinthe, which is a whole different thing.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

simon pedersen (Simon)
Mousquetaire
Username: Simon

Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 2:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oxygenee, Aside from the fact that my personal taste buds found them both incredibly similar, i could not agree with you more!
I recently lost a mignonette of Gempp which i would have loved to have compared to the rest. Unfortunately it fell from a shelf and smashed on the floor, i just couldn't bring myself to lick the floor.
Oxygenee (Oxygenee)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Oxygenee

Post Number: 122
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tasting absinthe or any other liquor for that matter is an imprecise art.

Expert professional wine tasters can come to entirely different conclusions, and pick up different aromas and flavours, from exactly the same wine. The SAME wine, tasted twice in different positions in a large blind tasting, can receive different scores from the same taster.

Absinthe is likely to be no different, and in the case of early Pernod, the problem is compounded because the samples are small, the bottles almost a century old, and the condition often variable.

So expecting "straight forward" and highly precise statements of the kind Wolfgang refers to is a little unrealistic, and I'd tend to be dubious of them.

Broadly speaking, pre-1915 Pernod and Pernod Tarragona are far closer in taste and aroma to each other, than either is to any commercially available absinthe. To me there are definitely significant differences between them, chiefly relating to the greater subtlety and interest of the floral quality I notice in the early Pernods. As always though, this is a matter both of opinion and of language. Others may not perceive these differences in the same way, or may describe them entirely differently.

Are these differences sufficiently obvious that I'd consistently recognise the one from the other in a true blind tasting? If the Tarragona samples were very early ones, probably not. If they dated from the 1950's, almost certainly yes.
Moonman's friend (Wolfgang)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Wolfgang

Post Number: 893
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Maybe it is not worth arguing but it would be fun to read something as simple as "The Spanish Pernod taste more of THIS or THAT compared to the french one".

Unfortunately people who have tasted enough samples of both to be able to write such a valid review are scarce.

I would have expected someone like Ted to be able to provide us wich such a straight forward answer. It is interesting to learn there is a difference to be seen in a lab but that doesn't tell us what's the difference in the glass...
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 669
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oxygenee, I appreciate your appreciation, but Ted and I have settled the joust privately, as "Southern Gentlemen" are prone to do.

It's fun jousting with someone of such formidable jousting capability (Blackjack is another such), but the issue isn't terribly important.

A couple of final things, lest anybody be reading between the lines and seeing things that aren't there:

There is an individual apparently selling old Tarragona or Pernod or both, who claims they are the same. This is NOT one of the people I credited as saying they were the same. I was unaware of that person's opinion until after I had made all but the last post in this discussion, and I don't take it seriously because people with a commercial interest will sometimes say what they have to say to sell things.

Also, I really DIDN'T think Ted was talking about Hemingway as his written reference; I didn't think a scientist would do that. I didn't realize until three days after I made that post, while reading the "other" forum, that he was indeed talking about Hemingway. Even if it's fiction, it would have been nice if the fictional character had elaborated what he thought was different about Tarragona. But he didn't. Hemingway wrote billions of other words, though, so maybe it's in there somewhere.

But I certainly agree with Ted that it isn't particularly important, and not worth arguing about any further.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Oxygenee (Oxygenee)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Oxygenee

Post Number: 121
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 11:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow - Artemis and Ted jousting head to head! Discussing historic Pernod! The scrupulous Southern politeness as they exchange rapier like barbs! Its a Sepulchritude Smackdown! Its Clash of the Absinthe Titans! Just like the good ole days!

(Brushes away tears of nostalgia)
T. A. Breaux (Tabreaux)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Tabreaux

Post Number: 96
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The analytical data I have demonstrates P.F. and P.T. are different. The differences do not appear to be due to age. The source of the specific differences I have not isolated, only because it is not a priority. I just can't make it more simple. If someone wants to persist in believing differently, who cares? Certainly I don't.

As for the rest of the ambiguities, I just don't care enough about them to continue. Cheers.

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 668
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Some people have claimed that Deva and La Fee are the same. No one has answered the question as to exactly why they are different"

That is correct. You are among the people who have not answered the question.

"so perhaps the possiblity should be considered that they may in fact be one and the same"

That possibility should most certainly be considered by anybody who has not tried them yet. The same possibility must be considered relative to Pernod and Tarragona, ESPCECIALLY in view of the fact that people who have tried both, claim them to be the same. Your comparison is most apt, although not in the way you intended.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 667
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The conclusions about expertise, herbs, and Emile 68 - 'original' Pernod are inaccurate."

Let's take them one by one:

My conclusion about expertise in the Tarragona plant is that no you have no idea what the expertise was because you were not there, and neither were you present in the Pernod factory. The only possible way you could know about such a thing is to have some documentary evidence, provided by someone who WAS there. If you can cite such evidence, please do. If not, you are making an ASSUMPTION about expertise based upon some other factor. I stand by my assertion. People from Spain could not go to France to be trained? French people with expertise could not migrate from France to Spain? Tell me where what I'm missing.

My conclusion about Un Emile is that is an unspectacular product. It was not I who compared it to Pernod; perhaps you should clarify what conclusion is inaccurate here.

My conclusion about herbs is that the difference between absinthes of similar quality with herbs grown in different regions of the world would be undetected by the vast majority of people in a blind taste test. Until such a test proves me wrong, I stand by it.

"I hope this is self explanatory."

To be brief, it was not.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Administration Administration Log Out Log Out   Previous Page Previous Page Next Page Next Page