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Duct and Cover

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Archive Thru March 2003 » Duct and Cover « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through March 7, 2003Quidam (Artemis)25 3-7-03  9:08 pm
Archive through March 4, 2003Jack Collins (_black25 3-4-03  10:03 am
Archive through February 16, 2003Lordhobgoblin (Lordh25 2-16-03  8:28 am
Archive through February 14, 2003Gasspectro (Gasspect25 2-14-03  11:38 am
Archive through February 13, 2003Absinthe Queen of Re25 2-13-03  12:51 pm
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Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 718
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 1:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

Since the gun plays such a very large part in your cultural psyche I am not entirely convinced myself that much tighter gun control laws in the US would lead to less gun crime. In the US it's a bit like trying to put a genie back into a bottle that he has never been in. I do believe however that in the UK the loosening of gun-control laws would lead to more ordinary members of the public owning guns (who would not otherwise have owned one) and would, in the long term, lead to a greater cultural significance and importance of the gun in our society and ultimately lead to its more frequent use in crimes. I certainly do not believe, as it has been said here, that loosening our gun controls would actually lead to less gun crime.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 874
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree that the situation in Northern Irland is unique, but, indeed, the situation of any country is going to be unique. If you look at the raw numbers, there really isn't a correlaion, one way or the other, between a nation's gun laws and the rate of firearm homicide. (There is some correlation between the laws and the rate of firearm SUICIDE, since suicides are less likely to seek out an illegal gun, but that is a different kettle of fish entirely.) As it stands, the US has a higher rate no NON-firearm homicides than the UK has for ALL homicides, so the presence of legally-availible guns is probably not the most important factor in the difference. If all our guns disappeared tomorrow, we'd still have more murders than you do.

I take the same position with gun crime that I do with any other crime, which is that we will have far more success by addressing the root causes of the crime than we could hope to have by simply increasing police powers and penalization. I think a lot of liberals over here--who believe that social programs and education are better long-term solutions to all OTHER kinds of crime--don't quite understand that increasing the severity of our gun laws is just going to mean putting more people in jail and creating more profit for the black market.

(As an aside, I think you underestimate the level of organization of criminals, in particular where the drug trade is concerned. Considering that, in our worst years, our criminal element managed a significantly higher death right than the various Northern Irish paramilitaries, you have to admit that they are pretty efficient. Not that it's something to brag about...)
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 716
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

Illegally held guns in Northern Ireland is very different case from illegally held guns in general. The Paramilitaries are in effect highly organised guerrilla armies with sophisticated supply chains for their weapons. They are supplied with the assistance of governments and (particularly with regard to the IRA) have a considerable degree of public international support (misguided though this may be). It's not as if paramilitaries buy their guns from a dodgy bloke in a shady pub. Nothing except lack of funds (and as you know they get plenty of this from the public via organisations such as Noraid etc) could possibly stop them from getting any weapon they wanted to. They are in a very different position from a local thug who wants a gun to terrorise his neighbours and carry out robberies (although Irish paramilitaries do this also).
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 715
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Teneng,

In this case I wasn't arguing that our gun laws lead to a reduction in gun-related murders by hardened criminals (who will of course get a gun if they want one). I was responding to the assertion made by Crosby that the UK's tight gun control laws have instead lead to a huge rise in gun crime in the UK and his implication that (as a result of our gun control laws) we are in a much worse state in the UK regarding gun crime than you are in the USA (with your liberal approach to gun control). This assertion is of course false. We very obviously have much less gun-related crime in the UK than you do in the USA and whatever the reason is for this (and the reasons are complex, our lack of cultural attachment to guns being a major factor here), our gun laws clearly are not responsible for increased gun-crime.

Indeed if a major US city had a similar incidence of gun-related crime as London (which is the city with the highest incidence of gun-realted crime in the UK) then that city's Mayor or Chief of Police would being 'shouting from the rooftops' about how safe their city was from gun-related crimes. That doesn't necesarily mean our cities are automatically safer than yours, but we are indeed less likely to be shot or held up at gunpoint.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 867
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oddly, the criminals in England just DON'T tend to use guns. I doubt the laws would stop them from getting them if they wanted (they seem able to get them in Northern Ireland), but for some reason, the criminals generally don't WANT guns.

Guns are a demand-side commodity, if you get my drift. Like drugs, if people WANT them, they'll get them, regardless of the law. If we want to reduce murders in the US (although one should consider that our murder rate in 2000 was the same as it was in 1917) we'd probably do better by figuring out how to reduce the DEMAND for guns that trying to stem the supply.
gary kiger (Teneng)
Mousquetaire
Username: Teneng

Post Number: 32
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"If you had the level of gun crime in the USA that we are currently experiencing in the UK then you would be very happy."

the gun control laws in the uk doesnt seem to being having much effect on the amount of CRIMINALS possesing guns. i dont see anything different coming from the same laws in the us. most crimes with guns involved dont tend to be committed with lawfully puchased firearms.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 644
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Artemis: RAT PATROL!! I loved that show"

Forgot all about that show. Those were Jeeps, of course. It's fun tearing around the countryside in a WWII vintage Jeep; I've done a lot of it, but sadly couldn't get my hands on any automatic weapons at the time. As for the show, it was on the edge of believability even for a boy in the backwoods, but the goggles they wore were cool ...
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 714
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Crosby,

Thankyou for your kind advice.
Crosby (Crosby)
le Duc
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 329
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

KnobGob,

Apply your understanding of irony to Oxy's predictions in the other thread.
C'est ma santé
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 712
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Crosby,

"Typical bullshit. Just because someone believes in the second amendment doesn't make them a "gun-crazed psycho"."

You need to start taking lessons in understanding irony.

(Naturally for yourself I'll make an exception to the comment made in my last post)
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 862
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

How does the murder rate in New York compare with large US cites where guns are legal?



It depends on the city. Washington DC (which has probably the strictest gun laws in the country) was the murder capital of the US for quite a while. New York has a low violent crime rate, generally speaking, for a city of its size.

The official "murder capital" shifts back and forth, but the cities that tend to be up there in addition to DC are Detroit, Chicago, New Orleans and sometimes LA. I don't know the specifics to the gun laws in each city--some states have unform laws, some allow cities to be more strict--but I suspect there isn't a real correlation one way or the other. The level of gang and drug activity are better indicators.
Karl (Raschied)
le Duc
Username: Raschied

Post Number: 269
Registered: 3-2002


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

There are two competing gun law theories at work. there is the "total ban" attitude prevalent in California, New York City, Washington DC, and Maryland. It's tough to even own a gun locked in your own home, let alone carry one outside. Then there are the "easy CCW" (Carry concealed weapons" laws of states like Virginia, Michigan, Florida, etc. These states enacted laws that enable any citizen without a criminal record to legally carry a concealed weapon.

It's hard to get through the rhetoric and smokescreen on either side to see which theory is most effective.

The gun control advocates in California recently pointed to how the Brady Bill reduced crime 22%here, yet the Brady bill didn't change the law in California - we had tougher waiting periods in effect before the Brady bill, so how did it reduce crime??

I tend to side with the numbers on the pro-gun lobby more, because they don't seem to be as "cooked" as the numbers of the gun banning camp. Plus, they are erring on the side of "More Freedom," rather than the "take care of me and spoon feed me" camp of the gun control advocates.

Maryland has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation, yet it ranked 3rd in Murders and first in robberies among the states (year 2000, according to the Washington Post) Nearby Virginia, with very open gun laws, ranked 15th and 27th for murders and robberies, respectively. The numbers on a per capita basis show similar figures. Maryland had a firearm related murder rate of 5.9 per 100,000, while Virginia had a rate at 1.8 per 100,000. (All numbers from the Washington Post)

Now, there are other differences between Virginia and Maryland that also make a difference. Maryland is more urban and racially diverse than Virginia, which tends to lead to more crime.

Tough issue. Lots of arguments on both sides. It's still a work in progress.
Rock over London, Rock on Chicago.
Pontiac - We build Excitement.
Crosby (Crosby)
le Duc
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 328
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

" Most Americans I've ever met have been very polite and friendly and none of them seemed at all like gun-crazed psychos."

Typical bullshit. Just because someone believes in the second amendment doesn't make them a "gun-crazed psycho".
C'est ma santé
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 710
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 7:26 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Blackjack,

"...guns are pretty much just as illegal in New York City as they are in London."

I didn't know that.

How does the murder rate in New York compare with large US cites where guns are legal?

As for us being nicer? Most Americans I've ever met have been very polite and friendly and none of them seemed at all like gun-crazed psychos.
Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 487
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Saturday, March 8, 2003 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Artemis: RAT PATROL!! I loved that show!!
Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 415
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Saturday, March 8, 2003 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Apparently that mall security guard got fired.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0308-08.htm
"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 859
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Saturday, March 8, 2003 - 1:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not to nit-pick, but guns are pretty much just as illegal in New York City as they are in London (except that all the cops carry here).

Regardless, the nature of British gun-control laws doesn't do much to explain why there are also fewer NON-gun murders in London. Ever consider that maybe you're just nicer than we are?
Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 706
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, March 8, 2003 - 12:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Crosby,

"I hope we don't end up like the spineless population of England that didn't stand up to the complete banning of hand guns and now are suffering the worst wave of gun crime ever."

If you had the level of gun crime in the USA that we are currently experiencing in the UK then you would be very happy.

There are over 640 murders in New York annualy and this is hailed as a huge success and improvement, the annual murder rate in London (the most 'dangerous' city in the UK) is 30% of this figure (and only 10% of these murders were gun-related) and we consider it to be a very worrying incease. I wonder how London murder figures compare against those from LA?

I'd far rather have our 'gun crime-wave' than your successful reduction in gun-crime any day.

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 634
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, March 7, 2003 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Post deleted, it was in the wrong thread.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

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