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Archive through February 16, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Archive Thru March 2003 » Duct and Cover » Archive through February 16, 2003 « Previous Next »

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Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 673
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 8:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The American public don't seem to mind their government spending vast amounts of their income on weapons but God forbid that they should spend it on a service providing acessible healthcare for it's citizens. Well I suppose its your money.

As for the great benefits of private insurance over a state funded public system, well this may work for acute complaints and ailments that can be sorted relatively quickly. When it comes to chronic, debilitating illnesses insurance companies run a mile. In the UK the tab for treatment of those with private insurance who develop chronic conditions is picked up by the public purse because these people get dumped by their insurance companies.

Insurance companies exist for the benefit of their shareholders, a very large chunk of what you pay in private health insurance is not going on healthcare but into shareholders pockets. As for the greater efficiency of private companies over public services, I just don't buy this. Efficiency is about more than a smart suit, management buzzwords, and a laptop under the arm.

Private health insurance is great for those who don't really need it but find that a bit of queue jumping fits with their busy lifestyle. Relying on private health insurance is very bad for anyone who may become very ill.
Althea (Rosietwobears)
Mousquetaire
Username: Rosietwobears

Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 3:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

hmmm and here we are in poor opressed holland where the hookers get a union (and pay taxes) and people are allowed to choose their own personal drug policy. poor us. so...unfree.

youll also find that social medicine DECREASES the amount of ER visits. we have to go through our GP and those who dont check in with their own are sent to a kind of "outpost" (huisartsen post) outside the ER... run by on-call GPs. they decide weather you need to actually go into the hospitals ER or not. the fact that doctors still make housecalls here also cuts down on the ER thing.
its really quite efficient and no one has to wait 6 hrs to recieve medical care.

:hugs dutch health care tightly:
mmm i love you so much! poor poor free americans.
Absinthe maketh the heart grow fonder
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 583
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Guess what? We pay MORE tax money, per capita, than almost all of the countries that provide UNIVERSAL coverage."

Even if that's true, as I pointed out, we FUND a lot more than they do, especially considering our military expenses. The question was, would it break the bank to fund health care for everybody on top of the other things for which we already pay.

" ... we've developed a back-assward system where the government DOES eventually end up paying for peple who don't have insurance ... "

That's only true to the extent the government is involved in the medical facility in question. In a private facility, the hospital itself picks up the expense. Of course, it's then spread among the other customers, but that's no different from a shopper at K-Mart paying a higher price to make up for what thieves steal. Get the government the hell out of it, and voila: taxpayers are now paying NOTHING.

"but only when they are so sick that they show up in the Emergency Room."

I pay for my own medical care. I don't have insurance and the government doesn't pay a damned cent. I pay for ALL of it. This makes me a lot more picky about whether to show up at ANY medical facility. I've been to the emergency room for such things as cutting the tip of my finger off, and busting my eyebrow wide open along with a broken arm, from slipping on the ice. And I've seen stupid bitches in those emergency rooms with a baby, because the baby coughed!! A good number of the people in there at any given time didn't need to go to ANY medical facility, but even among the ones that DID, a visit to the doctor in a couple of days or whatever would have been sufficient. You start PAYING for their phobias, and watch them start streaming in there like it was a LouAnn Rhymes concert. People are a lot more likely to abuse any service when somebody else is paying for it, and that includes insurance.

"Listen, close to 20,000 Americans die unnecessarily each year due to lack of health coverage."

Bullshit. I call bullshit on that, not because of the number; no matter what the number is, that's impossible to prove. How did they come up with that number (setting aside the possibility that whoever came up with it probably had an ax to grind, making sure the number fit their objective)? Forensic pathology? I visualize Dr. Hibbard: "This man died from lack of health coverage". The testimony of Aunt Edna? "He wouldna died if he coulda afforded a doctor". If the government picks up the cost in the end anyway, as you say, it wasn't lack of health care that killed those people, but their own pride or stupidity from not going for treatment even thought they couldn't pay.

"Even IF your hypothetical Next Hitler was to show up, he'd have a tough time beating those numbers."

He's not MY Hitler anymore than the previous one was. And I'm pretty sure Hitler killed as many as 20,000 people in a day, so you're wrong. With today's weapons, I shudder to think what he could do.

"Even the EXTREME RIGHT WING in Europe won't touch the national health-care systems."

Yeah, well once a hog has his snout in the trough, it's tough to root him out no matter what kind of wings he's flapping.

"Every other major nation on earth is in agreement that the government should provide health care for everyone"

They're wrong.

"The fact that we refuse to, in the name of protecting the "free market" is absurd,"

The free market is the best possible reason for the government staying out of almost all the things it sticks its nose into. Free market means free people.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 808
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

They chose healthcare and clean public transportation; we choose to protect ourselves militarily and come to a lot of rescues, possibly to that of the whole world.




Guess what? We pay MORE tax money, per capita, than almost all of the countries that provide UNIVERSAL coverage. We pay more and get less. This is because we've developed a back-assward system where the government DOES eventually end up paying for peple who don't have insurance, but only when they are so sick that they show up in the Emergency Room. It isn't a cost-cutting measure; it's a means of securing the maximum profits for the insurance and pharmaceutical companies.

Listen, close to 20,000 Americans die unnecessarily each year due to lack of health coverage. Even IF your hypothetical Next Hitler was to show up, he'd have a tough time beating those numbers.

Even the EXTREME RIGHT WING in Europe won't touch the national health-care systems. Every other major nation on earth is in agreement that the government should provide health care for everyone, and most of them have for FIFTY YEARS. The fact that we refuse to, in the name of protecting the "free market" is absurd, especially since tax money ends up covering the difference anyway.
angry psycho (Angryp)
Mousquetaire
Username: Angryp

Post Number: 47
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Then there are the many citizens that simply can't afford access to healthcare. Many times the gov't ends up absorbing their costs anyway because ERs must accept people regardless of their ability to pay.

One of the consequences of having so many people rely on ERs for primary healthcare is that costs are much higher than they would be if regular doctors were available (ER beds are *very* expensive) *and* little or no preventative care gets done, making problems much worse when they are attended to.

IMHO, *some* kind of real public healthcare system needs to be created. Not necessarily something that is completely free (maybe cheap insurance whose cost to the consumer is based on ability to pay?), but something beyond the either-you-have-it-or-you-don't system we have now is desperately needed.
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 579
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"What the hell? Are you saying that letting people go without healthcare is just a means to protect us from tyranny?"

No. No nation's wealth is boundless; we have to make some choices. They chose healthcare and clean public transportation; we choose to protect ourselves militarily and come to a lot of rescues, possibly to that of the whole world. Obviously we have a hell of a lot more people than they do. Can we afford to fund health care for our population (many of whom aren't even citizens) AND the military?
Althea (Rosietwobears)
Mousquetaire
Username: Rosietwobears

Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 3:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

hmmmm i didnt realise that absinthe was legal here per se... i know when i asked about it at gall and gall a few years back they looked at me like i was scum and explained that its prohibited for sale. i did assume that they dont sweat imports tho.
gotta love crazy paradoxal dutch law!
i mean this is a country where coffeeshops, headshops, shroom shops (dr. paddo) abound and a girl cant even buy a tube of monostat 7 over the counter. stuff like that always cracks me up about this place.
Absinthe maketh the heart grow fonder
Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 200
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In a surprise move, Iraq introduces a UN resolution regarding WMD in Auburndale, Massachusetts:

http://www.panix.com/~hncl/HectorsJournal/archives/000109.html

Ok, so I ripped it off ntk.net.
Absinthe Queen of Reviews (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 1644
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 9:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gropenhand.nl
WATCH where you put your hand
there fella!!!

What war?
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 806
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

With all due respect, if another Hitler arises in Europe, you and a lot of other people are going to be happy the U.S. spends the money it does on defense.



What the hell? Are you saying that letting people go without healthcare is just a means to protect us from tyranny?

"Gee, sorry about you're son's pneumonia, ma'am, but you'll thank us if there's another Hitler..."
Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 197
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

But if the dice go the other way, it's good to have a fallback position. (Also in English for yankee pigdogs)
Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 196
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh yeah? Absinthe is LEGAL here in the Netherlands! Ha! I say! Ha! (but I still have to go to London to get La Fee or Un Emile...)

That's THREE soldiers, plus 2 for Afghanistan and 2 for Venezuela, for a total of 34 armies. And I'm putting them all on Iceland. I'm taking over your stupid country and locking your monkey boy president up in the Washington Monument. Canada and Mexico will of course be semi-autonomous regions. We WILL grind you under the wooden heel of tyranny, starting with Nieuw AMSTERDAM (thanks for not changing too many of the local placenames). Hope you yankees like herring and sour licorice!
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 577
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"and hitler didnt come to power by force ya know."

Tell that to Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, etc. etc.

"the dude had settled in and grown roots.
i dont see how a disarmed europe caused that to happen."

I see. If the Jews had been armed they would have willingly got on those trains? Maybe then. Not anymore. Regardless of what caused it to happen, lack of arms made them powerless to do a damned thing about it once it HAD happened.

"america is armed and yet georgy boy is changing the very constitution."

He hasn't changed a word of it, although he wipes his ass with it, as presidents have been prone to do since George Washington.

"i dont see the government being overthown."

Not just yet.

"why?"

Because most Americans lack principle. I mean, they elected Bill Clinton president.

"he tells them that by stripping away their civil liberties hes "protecting" them"

No doubt about that, but the point was, who is protecting YOU when the shit hits the fan? The Dutch "military"? No, the U.S. won't come to your rescue at the 11th hour. I mean it's not like it happened BEFORE or anything ......
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 825
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 5:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hrm, looks like the inspector's reports from Iraq weren't enough to go to war this weekend ...

so it's second thoughts with the orange alert and the duct tape.

From the AP Newswire: http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/02/14/ridge_terror/index.html

k a l l i s t i

http://www.feeverte.net
Althea (Rosietwobears)
Mousquetaire
Username: Rosietwobears

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

ahh good scene...
as a rule i dont "do" message boards or chat because some people have awfully long toes, or they tend to be agressive towards new folks.

and hitler didnt come to power by force ya know. he seeped into peoples fears and paranoia. he said what people wanted to hear, he blamed the odd man out for all the problems and then dangled a guilded carrot in front of them. a real lenny bruce. then once he was elected the economy did take an upswing, people loved him all the more. the average german didnt really see what was going on in front of their noses until it was too late. the dude had settled in and grown roots.
i dont see how a disarmed europe caused that to happen. america is armed and yet georgy boy is changing the very constitution. i dont see the government being overthown. why? because hes telling the people what they need to hear. silly things like plastic and duct tape can save their lives. he tells them that by stripping away their civil liberties hes "protecting" them. hes seeping in.
Absinthe maketh the heart grow fonder
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Vicomte
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daddy, what's that bad man doing to my pet donkey?

Why, that's not just any bad man, son. That there's Hilter. And he's blanking your pet donkey.
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 576
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"if on the other hand a new hitler arises in the u.s., then..."

No, for that to happen we would have be a lot MORE like Holland and other European states first. Disarm people completely and all that.
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 575
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"i wasnt out to offend"

You didn't offend me.

"and i dont really understand why my having this opinion should create such a poo-ha."

I don't see any poo-ha, either. It's called discussion. You say what you think, I say what I think, every now and then somebody throws a glass at your head or mine. It's good for business, you see. Otherwise there's chirping crickets.
Althea (Rosietwobears)
Mousquetaire
Username: Rosietwobears

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

well unless the japs bomb pearl harbor again the US wont bother getting involved anyway - europe has no resources to rape. i suppose the whole world will have to be eternaly grateful because america decided to get involved at the 11th hour.
(insert eye roll here)

lower incidence of crime and unemployment, lower incidences of homelessness and untreated medical problems, the fact that there isnt a metal detector or an armed policeman at my kids school... these arent bad things.
i wasnt out to offend, i just didnt feel like sucking Uncle Sam's cock. i believe our tax system works better and i dont really understand why my having this opinion should create such a poo-ha.
see also: hullabaloo
Absinthe maketh the heart grow fonder
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 824
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post



k a l l i s t i

http://www.feeverte.net
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Vicomte
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"if another Hitler arises in Europe, you and a lot of other people are going to be happy the U.S. spends the money it does on defense."

if on the other hand a new hitler arises in the u.s., then...
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 574
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"are you saying that government funded medical care is not a good idea?"

If he didn't say it, I will. It's not a good idea, and it's not what, in the U.S., the federal government was created to do. With all due respect, if another Hitler arises in Europe, you and a lot of other people are going to be happy the U.S. spends the money it does on defense. It sort of frees you up to spend your tax money on "free" public transport, etc. if you think about it ....
Althea (Rosietwobears)
Mousquetaire
Username: Rosietwobears

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2002


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Geez, if this is such a bad place, you have the freedom to leave"

i for one took advantage of this invitation a decade ago.
im not sure why some people in the states get so defensive about other governments providing better care for their citizens. is it that hard to see past your own backyard and admit that other nations have had a few good ideas? are you saying that government funded medical care is not a good idea? do you really think that money is better spent on echelon systems and "star wars"? its not a competition you know. some things are better here, some things are better there. variety is the spice and all that.
Absinthe maketh the heart grow fonder
Deadest Elephant (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 571
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 12:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow. Talk about duck and cover.

" ... we went to the cafe. He ordered a small absinthe. Suddenly he threw the glass and its contents at my head ... "

Testimony of Paul Gaugin as to the events of December 23, 1888. Somebody was minus an ear before it was over.
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 822
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Taran-tara-taran-tara!

k a l l i s t i

http://www.feeverte.net

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