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Ignorant bitch

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Archive Thru March 2003 » Ignorant bitch « Previous Next »

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Archive through March 10, 2003Alphasoixante (Alpha25 3-10-03  6:08 am
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Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 869
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Their religion, THEIR living, breathing religion as they practice it, thus teaches THEM exactly that.



I was refuting Teneg's (now somewhat clarified) apparent contention that it was simply Islam alone that was responsible for making these people commit atrocities. It is obviously more complicated than that, since close to a billion Muslims seem to manage NOT to murder anybody, let alone thousands. There is some set of conditions which is making this particular perversion of Islam apealing to some people, just as, say, the reconstruction South made the KKK's version of Christianity appealing to some people, or the Germany of the '30's made Nazism appealing.

I'm not justifying their actions, or removing their responsibility one iota. I'm just saying that if we understand what conditions make this kind of hatred so appealing, we might be able to change those CONDITIONS, so that this twisted thinking doesn't spread.

Last year I had carpet beetles in my apartment. Now, I was relentless and brutal in rooting them out and killing them, but the simple fact is that there was no way I could hope to prevent them from coming back unless I kept the apartment very clean, didn't leave anything on the floor, and threw out everything made of cloth that couldn't be steamed, washed, or frozen.

We used to think disease was caused by evil spirits. Consequently, our efforts to keep people from getting sick were not all that effective. Once we understood the real causes, we were able to find cures or preventions that really worked.

Teneg's contention that the terrorists' "minds are twisted" seems rather hopeless and fatalistic to me. Essentially that would mean that it is INEVITABLE that people will hate Americans and want to do us harm. I'd hate to think that is so. I'm not saying that we can "fix" all the people who have already been twisted by hatred, but I hope it is possible that we can keep those not yet twisted from following that path.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 868
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

All the understanding I need about a parasite is to identify it, locate it, and destroy it with the least possible harm to myself.




To continue with your parasite metaphor, don't you think it would be useful, in dealing with a parasite problem, to know if, say, the parasite was attracted to blood, or filth, or by a warm body? To know what sorts of personal habits might lead to infestation? To know whether you could be exposed from eating undercooked meat, or swimming in the lake, or walking in the woods?

People aren't just BORN with the desire to murder innocent people, especially innocent people on the other side of the world. It is worth figuring out how that happens.


quote:

It's a shame Osama's crowd doesn't understand their book as well as you do, innit?



Yep. It's a shame that Jerry Fallwell doesn't understand the Bible as well as I do, too. Come to think of it, it's a shame that almost everyone doesn't understand almost everything as well as I do. That's why I try to explain these things.


quote:

I'd say their interpretation is closer to Teneng's than yours.



Broadly speaking, that's true. But their interpretation is NOT the iterpretation followed by most Muslims. Teneg's contention was that Islam itself was responsible for turning people into terrorists, when in fact it is a gross PERVERSION of Islam.


quote:

You apologized for the Muslims:



Only if you mean "apologize" in the classical sense. I was explaining the context of the quotes.


quote:

And in what way are THOSE are not "instructions for waging a SPECIFIC war", long irrelevant to anybody ????????



I didn't say they weren't. In chose those verses BECAUSE have a lot in common with the ones taken from the Qur'an. Even so, the Israelites are instructed to be a good bit less merciful than the Muslims during their respective conquests.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 649
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I can appreciate the fact that when you've made a detailed study of something, you might leap in to refute what's said about it by someone who hasn't, but I submit that a non-Muslim "studying" Islam from the sterile environment of a classroom in the United States gains nothing of the perspective of a Muslim fanatic in the service of the likes of Osama, and is thus poorly qualified to lecture even the ignorant on understanding said people.

The Muslim fanatics who think their religion gives at least tacit approval to killing infidels certainly got that idea from their own. Their religion, THEIR living, breathing religion as they practice it, thus teaches THEM exactly that. What it teaches an agnostic in Washington D.C. is as irrelevant to THIS situation as what it taught a Sufi in ancient Persia. The people who are our sworn enemies aren't clerics studying the fine points of what some Arabic word means; they aren't throwing ink bottles or scriptures at us. They are kneejerk assholes, as far removed from any pacifist understanding of Islam as the Ku Klux Klan were from Christianity. They are bent upon the destruction of what they deem as "Western", so Teneng's (perceived) ignorance is closer to the mark I think, than Blackjack's (alleged) understanding. With that said, Jack's expiation was truly impressive, although beside the point.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

gary kiger (Teneng)
Mousquetaire
Username: Teneng

Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 7:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

blackjack, i totally agree with you. islam is a peaceful religion. but as for understanding them to prevent it(wtc) from happening agian... i totally understand them; you cant appease people like that, they wont meet you halfway. thier minds are twisted.

i didnt mean for my last post to seem like it did. thats basically the format i found it in, thanks for putting it in context for me.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 648
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 5:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The point of understanding it is to help prevent it from happening again."

All the understanding I need about a parasite is to identify it, locate it, and destroy it with the least possible harm to myself. I don't give a fuck about its motivation, its feelings, and how to interpret its holy book and the same goes for whoever may be cheering it on. It's a shame Osama's crowd doesn't understand their book as well as you do, innit? I'd say their interpretation is closer to Teneng's than yours.

You apologized for the Muslims:

"What you are reading are the instructions for waging a SPECIFIC war, that was ALREADY taking place. It is not a general license to kill idolators" ... then you went on and wrote about some ancient, long dead people, certainly NOT Christians:

"Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children."

and

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

And in what way are THOSE are not "instructions for waging a SPECIFIC war", long irrelevant to anybody ????????
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Absinthe Queen of Reviews (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3208
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 5:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Tenneg, but you'd do well to stick to subjects you understand.




For example, chain pulling?
Pata-P is the DUKE! Duke a' New York. HE'S "A" NUMBER ONE!!!
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 865
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

i think i might know why... its thier peacefull religion of islam, wait... take out the killing ing of "infidels" and the its ok to kill a beiliver if you free a slave who beilives the SHIT and you got... the peacful religion of islam.




Ahem. Since you are new around here, I'll point out that I am a religion scholar and almost certainly know more about this subject than you do. If nothing else, I can read at least a little Arabic, and a good bit of Greek and Hebrew, so I'm in a much better position to evaluate this than you are.

You're full of shit.

I can produce easily 5 times as many quotes from the Old and New Testament that would make Judaism and Christianity look violent and oppressive if taken out of context. Some of them aren't mitigated by the context, quite honsestly.

I will address one of these verses specifically, because I had gone to the trouble to research it in the past, for just such an emergency, which is Surah 9, verse 5, the so-called "verse of the sword".

Surah 9 is called, in Arabic, al-Taubah, translating roughly as "repentance" or "forgiveness". It's opening verses are God's specific instructions to Muslims during their conquest of Arabia. The fragment you chose is part of a section on dealing with MushrikŻn, the word which your quotes translate as "those who join other gods" or "infidels". Jews and Christians are refered to as ahl al-Kitab, "people of the book".

Understanding this word is important. MushrikŻn does NOT refer to Christians and Jews. It refers to polytheists, pagans, idolators, etc., to people who do not believe in one God.

God is instructing that the Muslims are not obliged to hold to any treaties that they have made with MushrikŻn during the period of conquest, UNLESS those MushrikŻn have held to THEIR end of the treaties, and done no harm to the Muslims. Here is the previous verse:

"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous." (XI:4, Yusufali translation)

More to the point, the verb in XI:5 is NOT an imperative. It is not an order to kill all MushrikŻn. It is a VOLITIVE, saying that "You are only allowed to kill the MushrikŻn AFTER the holy months have passed". Moreover, the rest of the verse, and the following one, order that they may NOT kill any MushrikŻn who repent, or even simply ask for protection.

"But if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge." (XI:5-6, Yusufali translation)

What you are reading are the instructions for waging a SPECIFIC war, that was ALREADY taking place. It is not a general license to kill idolators, but an admonishment to give their enemies a chance to repent DURING THAT WAR. Now, it may grate on modern sensibilites that they expected their enemies to convert in order to receive mercy, but consider this, in contrast:

"When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, [and] utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them." (Deut. 7:2-3, KJV)

or

"And they said, What one [is there] of the tribes of Israel that came not up to Mizpeh to the LORD? And, behold, there came none to the camp from Jabeshgilead to the assembly.

For the people were numbered, and, behold, [there were] none of the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead there.

And the congregation sent thither twelve thousand men of the valiantest, and commanded them, saying, Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead with the edge of the sword, with the women and the children." (Jdg 21:9-11, KJV)

or

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1Sa 15:3, KJV)

I could go on, if you really want me to. You can disagree with me all you want, Tenneg, but you'd do well to stick to subjects you understand.
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Vicomte
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 94
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 6:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

plus, courtesy of a poet named sparrow, a poem entitled "God":

"God doesn't give a fuck about morality.
God is an outlaw.

He does what He pleases when He pleases.

If He needs a mountain, He cooks one up.
Then He explodes it.
It's all a joke to Him.

God had a son but He killed him."

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