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Archive through March 6, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Archive Thru March 2003 » Dude! i so hate the french! » Archive through March 6, 2003 « Previous Next »

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Lordhobgoblin (Lordhobgoblin)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Lordhobgoblin

Post Number: 700
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"What are YOU doing about Saddam other than wishing he goes away?"

And what the fuck has the USA and Britain done to make Saddam go away up until now? They supported him, they armed him, they knew he was a bastard. Who gave him his anthrax, his nerve gas, his weapons of mass destruction? We did. What did the West do towards the end of the Gulf war when the Shi'ites were uprising in Iraq? They let the internal rebellion against Saddam die. All of a sudden the tune changes and war is the answer. Does Saddam suddenly pose more of a threat to us than he did a couple of years ago (when of course containment was the answer? No. Does he have any links with 9/11 or Al Queda? No. This war is not about the threat from Saddam to the West.

If you want regime change in Baghdad then support those within Iraq who would rise up against Saddam. But we turn our back on these people. We turned our back on the Shi'ite rebels and we turn our back on the Kurds beacuse of our ally Turkey. Instead we leave them unarmed and unsupported for Saddam to deal with.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 851
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Several small bands of Americans have made abortive attempts to invade Canada over the years, tho. The most notorious was a series of raids by Irish-American Fenians starting 1866. Apparently the logic was that since Canada was a British colony, that taking the ferry over to New Bruswick (which wasn't even a part of Canada at the time) and bashing in a few heads counted a blow for an Irish Free State. Ah, my ancestors...
Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 412
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh yeah, and we actually did face invasion from Canada at that point, the only time in the last two centuries anyone's tried to invade the continental U.S.

Keep a close watch, Michiganders. You never know when it'll happen again.
"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 411
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Actually I think America had a pretty good cause in the War of 1812. Those damned Brits kept stopping our merchantmen and pressing our sailors into service, and if they found a Royal Navy man who'd gone AWOL, they'd hang him.

It's mostly gone downhill since then.


"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 850
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

stupid bitch who once proposed that men should be castrated simply for being men (this is a fact) is making noise about it?



Who are you talking about?
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 849
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Survive, as in build an empire in the Pacific, raping, burning and looting as they went? They attacked Pearl Harbor to destroy the U.S. fleet's ability to interfere with their empire-building. You've always posted some twisted shit here, but you're going over the edge lately.



Look, I am not saying that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was justified. I am saying, that from THEIR perspective, their oil supply was so vital that they were willing to make war against us (in part) to protect it.

Obviously the two situations are not alalogous. I don't expect to hear about US soldiers involved in rape-gangs in Iraq or anything of the sort. What I am saying is that the country that strikes first ALWAYS thinks it has just cause, that the enemy is such a threat that they must strike first.

And sometimes they are wrong.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 848
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 11:27 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

If one were to believe the shit that you people post here, America has never had a just cause, never done the right thing.



Thank you, Mr. False Dichotomy Man, for clairifying the subject. You do recognize there is a big difference between "America has done wrong" and "America has never done right" don't you?

We will never know if dropping the a-bomb saved x-number of lives or not. If it did, well, that was fortunate. However, we know for a FACT (from recently uncovered documents) that the US has contingencies which included the use of poison gas against Japanese civilians if the a-bombs failed to ellicit surrender, so I am wary of any assumption that our motivation was entirely noble.

Sure, we weren't as bad as the people we were fighting, but being less bad than Hitler isn't much of a bragging point.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 630
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Very true. The Japanese, for instsnce, did not attack us in the name of a god. They attacked us because we were giving material support to their enemies and cutting off the oil supplies they needed to survive."

Survive, as in build an empire in the Pacific, raping, burning and looting as they went? They attacked Pearl Harbor to destroy the U.S. fleet's ability to interfere with their empire-building. You've always posted some twisted shit here, but you're going over the edge lately. I'd put it down to stupidity, but you're obviously an intelligent person. I find it impossible to believe you actually believe much of the shit you post, so I have to assume you just talk to hear yourself talk.

"(Why does that sound so familiar.)"

See above. Because it's the same old twisted bullshit.

"The "it saved a million lives" rationalization for using the a-bombs only works if one presupposes that the Japanese would not have otherwise surrendered, a premise which is undermined by rumblings among some Japanese generals before we dropped the bombs."

Rationalize, my ass. It is the REASON the bomb was used. Presuppose, my ass as well. The Japanese had DEMONSTRATED that they had no intent of surrendering in battle after battle leading up to the bombs.

Only weeks before the atom bomb was used, 110,000 of them died, taking 7,613 American dead and 31, 800 injured with them at Okinawa, allowing the whole island to be destroyed and many Okinawans with it, not to mention wreaking havoc on the U.S. Navy with suicide attacks. Where were the "grumbling" generals then? Hanged later, I hope.

Estimates showed that the operations to invade Japan would cost about 1 million American lives, never mind the Japanese. How long were the American forces supposed to sit in the Pacific with their thumb up their ass waiting for the Japanese to surrender? It's like Wyatt Earp said to Ike Clanton at the OK Corral: "the fight's begun - get to fighting or get out". They didn't get out; they paid the price. I don't give a fuck how old grandpap's face melted off in the atomic blast. Tell it to the villages of Chinese who were murdered by the Japanese, and to the ones who were captured and used in "medical experiments". Tell it to the captured American airmen who were beheaded because some freak with a Samurai complex wanted to test the edge on old grandpap's sword.

If one were to believe the shit that you people post here, America has never had a just cause, never done the right thing. You're pimples on the ass of America. If you think it's so fucking bad, go take up with Hussein. I understand they need some human shields over there ...
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 629
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Augusta, GA, for example is suffering during the Open"

That would be "The Masters".

Suffering, huh? How are they suffering? The thousands of people who have gone to Augusta for that golf tournament for years, knowing full well that it's a private club which has never allowed women, are suddenly going to STOP going because some stupid bitch who once proposed that men should be castrated simply for being men (this is a fact) is making noise about it?

If people who actually let themselves be swayed by that bitch really exist, I hope they "vote" by putting revolvers to their heads and help to clean up the gene pool while they're at it.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 847
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

germans, genocide... america, peace....



The Germans wanted peace...(everybody sing!)

A little peace of Poland!
A little peace of France!
A little peace of Portugal
And Austria by chance!

But seriously, genocide was a means, not an end. The reason they wanted to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, et alia, was that they percieved (or found it useful to create the perception) that the "impure" were the cause of all strife and suffering in Europe, and once Europe was ruled by its deserving Aryan(sic) masters, there would finally be peace.

Most wars are fought in the name of peace, as absurd as it sounds. But peace on the terms of the winner. If there is a leson to be learned from history, it is that it doesn't work that way. Making war in the name of peace is as effective as making sex in the name of avoiding pregnancy...
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 846
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The "it saved a million lives" rationalization for using the a-bombs only works if one presupposes that the Japanese would not have otherwise surrendered, a premise which is undermined by rumblings among some Japanese generals before we dropped the bombs. Even Fat Man really DID save a million lives, Little Boy was dropped ENTIRELY for the benefit of the Russians, to prove we could do it again if we had to.

And this rationalization does nothing to mollify the firebombings of Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo, which DIDN'T end the war, and killed more people in the process.

I am NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, implying that we were remotely as bad as the Nazis. However, we are hardly without sin and cannot claim that we have only taken innocent life to serve the greater good.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 845
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, March 6, 2003 - 7:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

there is no comparison in fighting for the freedom and the saftey of a nation and killing "in the name of god".



Very true. The Japanese, for instsnce, did not attack us in the name of a god. They attacked us because we were giving material support to their enemies and cutting off the oil supplies they needed to survive.

(Why does that sound so familiar.)

We are NOT attacking Iraq to preserve the freedom of the Iraqi people. That's complete bullshit. We have already forgotten about Afghanistan (congress didn't even budget any funds for rebuilding it next year) and we will forget Iraq as soon as it is convenient.

How we are "protecting" ourselves by provoking a war that doesn't need to happen is beyond me. Saddam is cowed and helpless (moreso than he was in 1991, anyway). The only way he will become a threat is if we back him into a wall.
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 874
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Comparing the Holocost with Hiroshima/Nagasaki is apples and oranges. That being said however, the outcome is just as horrific, no matter what the justification.

But we're not going to nuke Iraq, we're gonna blow the fuck out them, old fashioned cowboy style.

Makes me wretch. But that is more empathy than politics.
“A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere.” - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 873
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 10:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I *used* to have family in Hamburg, my grandfather had letters from his cousins, aunts and uncles etc, asking for cans of food and clothing. Nobody could be traced after the war and it was assumed most of them died in the bombing of Hamburg.
“A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere.” - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Crosby (Crosby)
le Duc
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 320
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

And don't forget, Japan attacked the United States. It was not a war based on the USA acting as Police Man of the World.
C'est ma santé
gary kiger (Teneng)
Mousquetaire
Username: Teneng

Post Number: 26
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"If I murder thousands of people to make the world safe for Democracy Inc., it's OK.

If I murder thousands of people for God or the Vaterland, I'm a terrorist or a war criminal.

It's the ultimate self-justification."

there is no comparison in fighting for the freedom and the saftey of a nation and killing "in the name of god". considering that every major religion on this planet teaches peace. thats probably leaning more towards "killing in the name of ignorace".

and look how far our country has progressed in the last 60 years... i dont think we would ever use a nuke again unless one was used against us.

ive never been to japan but it seems to me that it is no longer an issue over there, they goten over it i think you should too.
Carl Guderian (Bjacques)
le Duc
Username: Bjacques

Post Number: 204
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hmm. The morality and/or effectiveness of atom-bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki may be up for debate, but massive bombing of Tokyo, Hamburg and Dresden was revenge, plain and simple. Bombing civilians rarely convinces them to surrender, or draw the stated lesson that the leader and his cabal are the real targets. It just pisses them off. The only reason dropping the A-bomb worked was because it scared the Japanese military, which had the Emperor surrender.

As for the shopping mall, they were indeed within their rights, but may lose out from a subsequent boycott, which is the only protest possible against private interests. Augusta, GA, for example is suffering during the Open, which should be their second big moneymaker (after Xmas), because of boycotts of the golf club for not allowing female members. For all the rants about political correctness, people have a perfect right (and duty) to vote with their wallets.
Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 410
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If I murder thousands of people to make the world safe for Democracy Inc., it's OK.

If I murder thousands of people for God or the Vaterland, I'm a terrorist or a war criminal.

It's the ultimate self-justification.
"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
gary kiger (Teneng)
Mousquetaire
Username: Teneng

Post Number: 25
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

no, what im saying is there is a difference in what was trying to be acomplished.

germans, genocide... america, peace....
Dr. O (Dr_ordinaire)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Dr_ordinaire

Post Number: 447
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gary, please bear with me, I haven't been through boot camp.

If I understand you correctly, what you are saying is that there is a big difference between gassing people to death and atomic bombing them to death.

I disagree.

Murder is murder.
gary kiger (Teneng)
Mousquetaire
Username: Teneng

Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

dr 0, there is a big difference in the germans putting wemon and children in camps and gassing them for no reason other than they are jews.

what we did in japan served a purpose, it saved millions of lives...

read that twice and say it out loud so it sinks in....

gary kiger (Teneng)
Mousquetaire
Username: Teneng

Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 3:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

karl, ill bet there is a helluva lot more to that story that what you heard from cnn...

in some parts of america(not california) property owners still still have rights. if he was asked to leave for whatever reason and he didnt leave he is trespassing. plain and simple.

Karl (Raschied)
le Duc
Username: Raschied

Post Number: 266
Registered: 3-2002


Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

from CNN.com:

"NEW YORK (Reuters) -- A lawyer was arrested late Monday and charged with trespassing at a public mall in the state of New York after refusing to take off a T-shirt advocating peace that he had just purchased at the mall.

According to the criminal complaint filed Monday, Stephen Downs was wearing a T-shirt bearing the words "Give Peace A Chance" that he had just purchased from a vendor inside the Crossgates Mall in Guilderland, New York, near Albany.

"I was in the food court with my son when I was confronted by two security guards and ordered to either take off the T-shirt or leave the mall," said Downs.

When Downs refused the security officers' orders, police from the town of Guilderland were called and he was arrested and taken away in handcuffs, charged with trespassing "in that he knowingly enter[ed] or remain[ed] unlawfully upon premises," the complaint read.

Downs said police tried to convince him he was wrong in his actions by refusing to remove the T-shirt because the mall "was like a private house and that I was acting poorly.

Calls to the Guilderland police and district attorney, Anthony Cardona and to officials at the mall were not returned for comment. Downs is due back in court for a hearing on March 17 and he could face up to a year in prison if convicted. "


Rock over London, Rock on Chicago.
Pontiac - We build Excitement.
Dr. O (Dr_ordinaire)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Dr_ordinaire

Post Number: 445
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"...is if you put the same moral value in Hitler's Germany "

OK, Gas, no offense taken, I would like you to do a "mental experiment".

You are Rebecca Steinberg. You are walking with your 2 year old son to the train station. SS Stormtroopers stop you, herd you into a train, drop you off at Treblinka and kill you.

Now you are Yoko Mashu. You are walking with your 2 year old son to the train station. A blinding flash lets your head turn a bit before the flesh is ripped off your bones and both, flesh and bones, are vaporized by an atomic bomb.

When you are at the receiving end, it doesn't matter whether the guys who are killing you are the "Good guys" or the "Bad guys".
Gasspectro (Gasspectro)
Mousquetaire
Username: Gasspectro

Post Number: 32
Registered: 1-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 5, 2003 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dr O,
The only way your argument can be used both ways is if you put the same moral value in Hitler's Germany or Tojo's Japan as you do the US. Silly and stupid rationale.

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