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Archive through March 12, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » Archive Thru March 2003 » Dude! i so hate the french! » Archive through March 12, 2003 « Previous Next »

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Barsnake (Barsnake)
le Duc
Username: Barsnake

Post Number: 161
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

guys on the radio were talking about the test blast of the MOAB yesterday...said the blast could be felt 200 miles west of FLA. - proof of this is the French Qtr in NOLA surrendered...

and the beat goes on...
Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 489
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 6:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Uh, the Dakotas are already somebody's holyland. It's a bad idea to move in ANOTHER bunch of outsiders. Ask Custer about it.
Karl (Raschied)
le Duc
Username: Raschied

Post Number: 271
Registered: 3-2002


Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 5:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

If America really wants to fix the whole problem, they should offer up North and South Dakota to either the Palestinians or the Israelis and be done with it. No one else lives there - let one group or the other claim it as "The New Homeland."

I've been advocating this one for years.
Rock over London, Rock on Chicago.
Pontiac - We build Excitement.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 651
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2003 - 3:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would like to have the men of Heaven in my own house:
With vats of good cheer laid out for them.
I would like to have the three Marys, their fame is so great.
I would like people from every corner of Heaven.
I would like them to be cheerful in their drinking,
I would like to have Jesus too here amongst them.
I would like a great lake of beer for the King of Kings,
I would like to be watching Heaven's family, drinking it through all eternity.


Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 419
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 11:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Y'know... if it weren't for the regular Ahmeds and Yaacobs for whom Jerusalem is no more (or less) special than the place they happen to live, there'd be something to it.

That's why Jerusalem ought to belong to everyone and no one. Internationalize it. Let Israel and Palestine both have their capitals there. It belongs to the world in the same way cities like New York and Paris do.
"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
Darrin, Stalker of Head (Traineraz)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Traineraz

Post Number: 869
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Skipping over the oil-soaked sliced nightshade tubers for a moment . . .

Can't we just end the whole Israel-Palestine war once and for all? Evacuate, then just one well-placed nuclear missile should do it. Bye-bye, mosque. Bye-bye, wall. Bye-bye, Jerusalem.

If that doesn't do it . . . there are other cities to evacuate and render permanently uninhabitable.

Eliminate the prize. Isn't that how we handle children? If they can't share, take away the toys.

An interesting point brought to my attention by a client of mine (retired Navy commander): Arab Jews and Arab Muslims got along just fine and dandy in the Middle East (comparably speaking) until the creation of Israel and massive influx of European Jews.

Culture clash, not holy war. Religion is a red herring.
Pervert Euchre (Perruche_verte)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Perruche_verte

Post Number: 418
Registered: 12-2000


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 3:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Aren't we all proud.

Of course those things aren't called "French" in France anyway... if they really want to show some kindergarten variety of snideness, they could ******* or something.

[forget it... they get no free ideas from me... not that no one's thought of it already.]
"Drink accomplished what God did not." --Marguerite Duras
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 879
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You GO, AMERICA!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/sprj.irq.fries/index.html
A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 871
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 10:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Thank you, Oxy. I was waiting to see how long it would take for anybody to mention this. I would have waited until the end of time for one of the "let the UN solve it" hypocrites to do so.



The State of Israel that the UN proposed did not include the West Bank and Gaza, and the proposal was never ratified. Instead, Israel took it upon itself to declare its own statehood without UN approval, and beyond the UN-proposed borders, and the Arab nations responded (much to the detriment of the Palestinians they were supposedly protecting) with an attack. Israel is not in a good position to claim legitimacy based on UN authority, especially since it stands in violation of quite a few UN declarations made against it.

The State of Israel's right to exist, as far as I'm concerned, is based on the fact that it has now been there for 50 years, has 6 million people who consider themselves Israelis, and there really isn't anything to be done about it. Its right to exist does NOT negate the rights of the 3 million or so people who live in the Occupied Territories who consider themselves Palestinians, and at least as many living in exile elsewhere. BOTH groups have the right to somewhere to live and to self-rule.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 870
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Certainly of course you'd rule out any overwhelmimng use of force, because afterall, they're just fanatics whose only weapons system is their own children....



If it was up to me, I would rule out any use of force that would kill twice as many innocent people as had been killed in the attacks, yes. Especially if such a response would only ENCOURAGE further attacks, which has clearly been the case in Israel.


quote:

In fact, come to think about it, why the big fuss about 9/11? Those were just fanatics whose only weapon system was a few box cutters.



Er, and 4 airplanes... But if our response to 9/11 had resulted in the deaths of, say, 9000 innocent people, I would say it was excessive.

(There are some who say that our attacks on Afghanistan have resulted in more innocent deaths than the 9/11 attacks. I am skeptical of those claims, but it is still a concern.)


quote:

is this type of terrorism really OK?



Of course it isn't "OK"! But neither is shelling an entire town because you believe a few terrorists are there. Neither is bulldozing innocent people's homes in hopes of rooting out the bad elements. Neither is using live ammunition to disperse a crown of kids throwing rocks.

Listen, I have no illusions that the members of Hamas and such would not be just as brutal or worse if they had access to the same kind of weaponery as the Israeli government, but the fact is they DON'T.

I think the numbers speak for themselves. Israel is killing more innocent people by a factor of 3. The right of self defense is not license to do anything you want to an attacker. If somebody throws a punch at me, I can hit him back, even knock him out, but it I start kicking him in the head once he's unconscious, I'd end up in jail. If an unarmed man attacks me, and I pull a knife on him, I am going to be the one who is in the most trouble, especially if I'm bigger and stronger than he is. Your response has to be proportional to the level of the threat. I, as a 220-pound blackbelt, cannot respond to an attack by a 130-pound woman with the same force that I would use on a 300-pound wrestler.


quote:

Whatever you think about the rights and wrongs of the Middle East situation, condoning this type of terrorism is morally depraved.



I'm not condoning shit. The fact that a small faction of Palestinians are morally depraved does NOT negate the human rights of the entire people, any more than the fact that a small portion of young black men in the US account for half of murders would justify imposing a system of Apartheid.

Do you know how many Israeli civilians were killed by Palestinains in 2002? 274. That's a rate of about 5.3 per 100,000. That is well below the MURDER rate in most US cities. Do you see us declaring martial law and sending in tanks to root out killers here? You certainly don't see our police killing twice as many people to try to stop them.

(When you take into account the smaller size of the Palestinian population, the rate at which Palestinian civilains are killed by Israeli forces is a staggering 33 per 100,000.)

The fact is, the level of "crisis" in Israel is generally blown out of proportion. As bad as Israel's treatment of the Palestinians is, there are places in the world where Muslims fare much worse (the Phillipines comes to mind). I read an article recently that proposed that the reason that the Palestinian situation gets so much more press, and thus stirs such strong feelings in the Arab world, is that Israel has much nicer hotels than the southern Phillipines, or Chechnya, or former Yugoslavia, so the reporters are more likely to go there.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 650
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"the state of Israel (created, by the way, by UN resolution)"

Thank you, Oxy. I was waiting to see how long it would take for anybody to mention this. I would have waited until the end of time for one of the "let the UN solve it" hypocrites to do so.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Oxygenee (Oxygenee)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Oxygenee

Post Number: 109
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Overwhelming military force may be justified in defending ones country from an assault from the combined armed forces of several Arab states, but it seems a little much against a band of fanatics whose only weapons delivery system is their own children."

Does it really seem "a little much" to you? Really?

So if, in response to a US invasion in Iraq, Hamas begin to launch suicide bomb attacks on downtown Arlington, not once, not twice, but dozens and then hundreds of times, each time killing innocent men, woman and children (some of them perhaps friends or relatives of yours), then you'd suggest the USA do......what exactly?

Certainly of course you'd rule out any overwhelmimng use of force, because afterall, they're just fanatics whose only weapons system is their own children....

In fact, come to think about it, why the big fuss about 9/11? Those were just fanatics whose only weapon system was a few box cutters.

The Israeli government is fighting a level of terrorism that in cruelty, viciousness and barbarism surpasses almost anything seen in modern history. Its enemy, Hamas, is NOT seeking a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but the total destruction of the Israeli state and the expulsion of the Jews from the Middle East. Hamas launches suicide attacks throughout Israel, not only in the occupied zones.

In response to this, your suggestion is that the Israeli government act with mild restraint, treat it as a policing problem, and perhaps deliver a diplomatic note to the UN representitive?

EVEN IF YOU AGREEE with the Hamas position that the Jews have no right to live in their biblical homeland, that the state of Israel (created, by the way, by UN resolution) has no right to exist, is this type of terrorism really OK? Is it really OK to DELIBERATELY (not accidentally, not carelessly, not inadvertently, not negligently, not recklessly, but specifically and deliberately) target the vulnerable sectors of society...the young sitting in a coffee shop...children at preschool...the elderly at a Passover seder?

Whatever you think about the rights and wrongs of the Middle East situation, condoning this type of terrorism is morally depraved.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 866
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

Ordinaire: if you believe that the Jews have as little right to a homeland in Israel, as the Germans had to occupy France, then there's no difference at all.




The question should be: "did the Jews have as little right to a homeland WHERE PEOPLE ALREADY WERE LIVING as the Germans had to occupy France?"

Technically speaking, some or all of France had been in control of Germans (or the Holy Roman Empire) far more recently than Palestine had been controlled by the Jews. If we are to base claims of political control on past historical occupation, Germany had at least as much a claim on France as the Jews did on Palestine.

Now, the means by which the claims were asserted were not comperable. Germany launched a massive military campaign, while the Jews took control primarily through mass immigration, economic pressure, and political wrangling. Which isn't to say that there wasn't violence involved, too (cough-Stern Gang-cough), but certainly nothing on the level of a Blitzkreig.

Now, the Occupied Territories are a more complicated matter. They were taken by force, but during a war in which Israel was attacked. Their claim to these lands is tenuous, and international law dictates how occupied territories must be governed. Israel has not done a great job in observing these laws.

It would be stupid to claim that Sharon is as bad as Hitler, or that any Israeli regime was as bad as the Nazis. Hitler's direct innocent death toll was in the many millions. The number of innocent Palestinians who have been killed by Israeli forces and their lackeys since 1947 is probably less than 70,000. How many have died because of displacement and living conditions is not really calculable.

From a global perspective, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict only qualifies as a "minor attrocity", if there is such a thing. If Israel wanted to commit out-and-out genocide, they could have done so already. However, it is not something I think our government should be facilitating.

The problem is that the Palestinian deaths are "justified" on the grounds of self defense, when the Israelis have, and continue to, do far more harm to the Palestinians than the Palestinians could ever do to Israel. Overwhelming military force may be justified in defending ones country from an assault from the combined armed forces of several Arab states, but it seems a little much against a band of fanatics whose only weapons delivery system is their own children.

Oh, here's an interesting historical fact: the area now known as the Gaza Strip was NEVER part of an historical Jewish state, not even when the Solomonic empire was at its greatest extent. That land was Philistia, the home of the Philistines, the people from which Palestine takes its name. Whatever claim the Jews may have on their ancestral homeland, it DOESN'T include Gaza.
Mondino de' Luzzi (Drinkslinger)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Drinkslinger

Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 12:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm up for the cocktail bit.
Oxygenee (Oxygenee)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Oxygenee

Post Number: 108
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 9:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm puzzled by your post Dr O. You asked what the difference between the French Resistance and Hamas was: I answered you.

If you mean my comments to Hobgoblin, he has them coming. I generally post only in connection with absinthiana or wine, but after 3 years of reading Hobgoblin's vitriolic, lengthy and blatantly anti-semitic posts about Israel, I've no doubt about his inclinations. His "facts" are just racist claptrap garnered from whatever militant website and the outright viciousness of his language (crucually: employed uniquely to describe the Israelis - never any other organisation) is beyond the pale.

Most times the rest of the Forum is just bored into submission, and lets his turgid posts pass without comment. When he's called on his so-called "facts", as Artemis did with his recent posts about the A-bomb, they alway turn to dust.

I realise its uncomfortable, as Kallisti says, to find out how people really think, but eventually, enough is enough.
Absinthe Queen of Reviews (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3206
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

More porn and Grampaw stories!
Pata-P is the DUKE! Duke a' New York. HE'S "A" NUMBER ONE!!!
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 878
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hate knowing what you people actually think. Can't we all just have a cocktail?

And don't take this as an injunction to shut up or anything. Just blowin' my steam.


A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere. - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Absinthe Queen of Reviews (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3205
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 4:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My Granpaw's Jewish buddies
used to tell him he held onto
his money as tight as a Jew.

Isador was funny, he'd order his
breakfast at the local diner and
tell the waitress to bring him
a big plate of that "kosher" bacon.



Pata-P LOVES SPECIAL "H"! HE'S "A" NUMBER ONE FAN!!!
Dr. O (Dr_ordinaire)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Dr_ordinaire

Post Number: 453
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

That was really low, Oxy.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 647
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I really was going to shut up about this, but these are the issues of our times; they're everywhere, you turn on the TV or radio and the debate is just as hot.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Oxygenee (Oxygenee)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Oxygenee

Post Number: 107
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"You know, sometimes people dislike certain Jewish people because they dislike the individual and not because the individual is Jewish"

I know Hobgoblin, I'm sure some of your best friends are Jewish.
Oxygenee (Oxygenee)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Oxygenee

Post Number: 106
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ordinaire: if you believe that the Jews have as little right to a homeland in Israel, as the Germans had to occupy France, then there's no difference at all.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 643
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oxygenee joins the fray as always, with telling effect.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 642
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"It doesn't refute the communications made by the Japanese."

It points out that the "communications" were weak, to the wrong people, and at the wrong time, and that the views expressed therein were NOT the views of the people who had the power to discontinue the war, which is all the difference.

"It doesn't refute Stimson's remarks to Truman about Japanese cities unfortunately being too bombed out to use the A-bomb effectively."

Even if he said that in that callous way, which I doubt (I don't remember it in that paper, but it was a long paper), that's a strictly practical consideration of war which he would have been stupid NOT to make. Don't you get it? In order to demonstrate the effectiveness of the weapon, you can't use it on an already bombed out city. It does point out that he purposely spared Kyoto, which shows he wasn't the heartless asshole as which you'd like to portray him.

"Nor does it refute what Stimson himself wrote in his memoirs."

Like what? He was Secretary of War. His job was to end the war as soon as possible with as few American casualties as possible. He was not Mother Theresa nor the Japanese Red Cross. Dr. O. presented a lot of untruths and quasi-truths out of context, now the record has been corrected. In any case, I said "virtually" everything, I didn't say everything.

Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Dr. O (Dr_ordinaire)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Dr_ordinaire

Post Number: 452
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Sunday, March 9, 2003 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oxy: what exactly is the difference between the French Resistance blowing up a busload of Germans in occupied France and Hamas blowing up a busload of Israelis in occupied Palestine?

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