Topics Topics Edit Profile Profile Help/Instructions Help Member List Member List Edit Profile Register  
Search Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Archive through April 11, 2003

Sepulchritude Forum » The Absinthe Forum » The Monkey Hole » The future if Iraq wins the war. » Archive through April 11, 2003 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 529
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

My god, it's like a fucking mass delusion. It's like something out of the Dark Ages. Even the White House won't go so far as to link Saddam to 9/11.
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Duc
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 107
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

it's a little disturbing that the prowar demonstration was at "ground zero." that suggests we blame iraq for 9-11 and that the war is one of retaliation. and that's not in sync with the official message, which was once disarmament and is now liberation.

way to win those hearts and minds.
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Duc
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 106
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 6:51 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"I thought it meant what it said, which was, I thought, that a good end is not a good thing if the means of achieving it were not good."

"end doesn't justify means" doesn't mean that bad means change a "good end" into a bad one. A good end is a good end. what it DOES mean is that a good end cannot change bad means into good ones.

For example:

no more sadaam: a good end. always was and always will be.

criminal act of war on false pretenses: a bad means. always was, always will be.
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Duc
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 104
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 6:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

the 15 year old boy comment was not meant to be taken too seriously. the equation of freedom and anarchy just happens to be a view that's enormously attractive to teenage boys. primarily because it adds a gloss of righteousness to their self-indulgent behavior.

admittedly, the truth or falsity of a position cannot be judged by the idiocy of its principal supporters. heck, even artemis' opinions are POSSIBLY true.

anarchy is absence of rule, arbitrariness, chance. if freedom is equivalent to anarchy, then there's no meaningful difference between the freedom of a human being and the freedom of, say, a falling coconut. it's an overly general and rather empty conception of freedom.

a more meaningful concept of freedom is autonomy, self-rule.
Crosby (Crosby)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Crosby

Post Number: 367
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 11:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=6&aid=D7QB2T900_story
C'est ma santé
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 701
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Um, the one where Iraq never attacked us. You?"

The one in which Iraq has harbored, encouraged, invited, and possibly trained, equipped and financed terrorists who have as their aim the destruction of Western civilization in general and the U.S. in particular.

Is it lost upon you that most of the combatants our forces are killing and capturing in the last few days are not Iraqis at all, but Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians, and other terrorist scum?

Iraq may not have been our biggest problem, but we had to start somewhere.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 700
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"The entire meaning of "the ends don't justify the means" is that you CAN'T judge an action based entirely on whether it was effective."

I thought it meant what it said, which was, I thought, that a good end is not a good thing if the means of achieving it were not good.

"Get back to me when we've CREATED a government."

Uh, that happened over two hundred years ago. Somewhere in North America. The Iraqis may not be capable of following suit, but now they have at least the chance. I never proposed that the U.S. should create a government FOR them. We excised a cancer they would never have been able to operate upon themselves, now maybe they can prosper and set an example for others in the region. Then again, maybe not.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Ayatollah of Rock and er... Rollah! (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3303
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

On the topic of smart vs. dumb

A little story about a protestor.

Protestor comes into a restaurant
all red faced and breathing hard.
Pulls his ski hat & gloves off and
leans his protest sign against the
wall and sits down with his buddy
who'd been waiting for him.

The protestor sez all perturbed and
disgusted...

"WELLL!!!! I just about got ARRESTED
I might as well fuckin' EAT!"


We say to ourselves Wasn't that the point?
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 917
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

actors are idiots, please do not judge an ideology by the people who have the biggest grandstand from which to speak.

One more thing: Chuck Heston

'nuff said.
“A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere.” - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 903
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

What means would have been better but still effective?



I have to hand it to you, Artemis, you almost caught me with that. You almost turned it around on me. The entire meaning of "the ends don't justify the means" is that you CAN'T judge an action based entirely on whether it was effective. You have to take into account the moral and ethical nature of the action itself. And mounting an unprovoked invasion of another country doesn't fair wel in that depeartment. Sure, THIS time the outcome hasn't been all that bad, but how about the next time? How about when ANOTHER country decides it wants to launch a first-strike? Until we have perfect knowlege of the potential outcomes of our actions, we must have standards of behavior that rely on something other than the final body count in retrospect.
Jack Collins (_blackjack_)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: _blackjack_

Post Number: 902
Registered: 11-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post


quote:

What means would have been better but still effective?




Effective to what end? All we've done so far is REMOVE a government. Of course the easiest way to do that is overwhelming force. Get back to me when we've CREATED a government. THAT'S a real trick. I certainly hope we do a better job than we did in Iran, Chile, or Indonesia...


quote:

Unprovoked? On what planet have you been living?



Um, the one where Iraq never attacked us. You?



quote:

Who's Smarter?




I find it entertaining that this essay chooses to characterize the anti-war movement as consisting of a bunch of un-educated actors, all-the-while ignoring the almost COMPLETE consensus in academia among arabists and other historians of the near east that the war is a bad idea, not to mention the opposition coming from the regimes of the very nations (cough, Iran, cough) who would have had the most to fear from Saddam.

This is the classic Fox "News" tactic of ad-hominem debate. They try to make the supporter of a cause look foolish without addressing the underlying issue.


quote:

For electricity, yes. I'm not so sure about motor vehicles.



The only thing holding fuel-cell vehicles back is the lack of a clean source of electricity to electrlyse water to hydrogen (tho some novel chemical alternatives are cropping up). Had we pursued nuclear power as agressively 20 years ago as we should, we'd have fast-cycle breeders humming along, and it would be a done deal by now.

However, I am increasingly of the opinion that we have missed the window, as far as nuclear power goes. The initial capital costs are enough that by the time a primarily-nuclear infrastructure could be built and break even, newer emerging technologies will have passed nuclear in terms of cost-effectiveness and safety.

Nuclear powere SHOULD have been the power source of the 1980's. I have yet to figure out what the best choice is for the 2010's...


quote:

Tying anarchy to "freedom" or tying *that* to the intellect or equivilent of 15 yr old boys is subjective.




only by 15 year old boys and the intellectually equivalent.

I came to anarchism the old-fashioned way: I was trying to impress a girl...


quote:

If anarchy isn't utter freedom, than what is it?



Anarchy is like a highly-radioactive element. It immediately starts to break down into something else. If you remove all authority, SOMEBODY is going to make their own, usually in an unpleasant manner.

BURNING YOUR BRA IS UDDER FREEDOM!

(Sorry, I was channeling Laugh In there for a second...)
Ayatollah of Rock and er... Rollah! (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3300
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hahaha... Get OUT OF IRAQ PATA!!!

Hey that 15 year old boy just came
up to my door asking me if I thought the
BUSH administration was leading our country
down the wrong path...
I shrugged and said "Shit, I don't know"
He said "Well, you got any herb man?"
I says "Yeah, here's a sprig of Rosemary
Uncle Ralph brought me today!"
"Thanks dude!" the boy said as he walked
away sniffing the branch.

Moral of the story: Shit, I don't know.
Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 528
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Get your palm away from my valley or I'll snap it off.
Ayatollah of Rock and er... Rollah! (Head_prosthesis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Head_prosthesis

Post Number: 3299
Registered: 1-2001


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"In a valley sculpted by man, between the palms and roses..."

I'm digging the sound of that already.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 697
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"only by 15 year old boys and the intellectually equivalent"

15-year old yogurt has argued more effectively here than you have.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 914
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

A good deal of anarchy accompanies/follows war. Tying anarchy to "freedom" or tying *that* to the intellect or equivilent of 15 yr old boys is subjective.

And judging whether, in the long run, it was all worth it, we must leave to posterity.


“A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere.” - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Alphasoixante (Alphasoixante)
le Duc
Username: Alphasoixante

Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2001


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"it could be argued they're exactly the same thing, anyway."

only by 15 year old boys and the intellectually equivalent.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 694
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Er, there's still a ways to go. Don't kiss the soldier till its over."

Okay, make it one cleric and one alleged cleric killed. The whole thing seems to have been rooted in hatred of Saddam. No fault of the U.S. forces if removing his iron boot made them feel free to express that hatred. Freedom and anarchy will be the same thing over there for a while, and it could be argued they're exactly the same thing, anyway.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 693
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Well, it wasn't a question, it was a quip."

So it was. I apologize.

"To elicit chuckles."

I couldn't tell. People say the same shit all the time and they're serious, if ignorant. I know more than a little about nuclear facilities in the U.S., and not by reading about them from the outside, so I'm sensitive to the issue - I'll leave it at that.

"Developed and used properly by the U.S. it would make countries like Iraq irrelevant."

For electricity, yes. I'm not so sure about motor vehicles.

"I'm just thinking how far the 1 Trillion dollars we'll spend knocking down Iraq and putting it back together would have gone to developing safe, long term energy sources, like nuclear."

I had an email today of an article about Congress proposing some incentives for new nuclear power plants. I'd point to the source, but I already purged it.

As for the instant justice, some Baath (they probably haven't had one) party members have been lynched, and a cleric has been murdered by a mob. Some "fedayeen" have been stomped in the streets when recognized as well. It was inevitable.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 527
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Alright, I see American-style "instant justice" has already taken hold!
Kallisti (Admin)
Madame Guillotine
Username: Admin

Post Number: 909
Registered: 1-1998


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Er, there's still a ways to go. Don't kiss the soldier till its over.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/a/2003/04/10/international1159EDT0637.DTL
“A lady who has a secure seat is never prettier than when in the saddle, and she who cannot make her conquest there, may despair of the power of her charms elsewhere.” - THE MANNERS THAT WIN, 1880

http://www.feeverte.net
Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 526
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm just thinking how far the 1 Trillion dollars we'll spend knocking down Iraq and putting it back together would have gone to developing safe, long term energy sources, like nuclear.
Pataphysician (Pataphysician)
Elitist Bastard
Username: Pataphysician

Post Number: 525
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well, it wasn't a question, it was a quip. To elicit chuckles. Truth is, I'm for nuclear power. Developed and used properly by the U.S. it would make countries like Iraq irrelevant.
Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 692
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"You were also wrong on a number of your so called accurate predictions about the war (check them for yourself if you wish)."

I was going to do this in any case. It would have been better to wait until all the results are in, but since that could be a wait of years, and the issue has been forced:

Oxygenee:
Contrary to Hobgoblin's assertions, a war in Iraq will be over in 2 weeks tops, with the remnants of the Iraqi army and Saddam's regime collapsing even faster than they did last time.

AS CLOSE TO CORRECT AS MAKES NO DIFFERENCE.

Oxygenee:
Total direct Iraqi civilian casualties will be less than 3500, or ONE TWENTIETH of Hobgoblin's low-end estimate.

DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER, BUT IT'S AS LOW AS IT COULD HAVE BEEN MADE SHORT OF NOT GOING TO WAR.

Oxygenee:
Such casualties as there are, will be primarily due to Saddam's deliberate policy of siting military facilities in civilian areas.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Not only did they site military in civililan areas, they used women and children as pawns, getting a number of those killed as a result.

Oxygenee:
Hobgoblin will choose not to believe these figures, quoting instead the Pan-Scandanavian Vegan Observers League, who will list the casualties at 750000.

NO COMMENT.

Oxygenee:
Like them or not, the present governments of the USA, UK, Italy and Spain will all emerge immeasurably strengthened from the conflict.

JURY'S STILL OUT, BUT IT'S A DAMNED GOOD BET.

Oxygenee:
President Bush will win the next election by a landslide.

THE RIFF RAFF THAT CURRENTLY CONSTITUTE THE OPPOSITION DON'T HAVE A SNOWBALL'S CHANCE IN HELL. HILLARY WAS SMART ENOUGH TO KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT, BUT SHE HASN'T DECLARED YET.

Oxygenee:
Blair will fire Gordon Brown from the Cabinet, and further consolidate his power. Both the governments of Italy and Spain will survive.

ONLY TIME WILL TELL.

Oxygenee:
Any actual documented and filmed evidence of ANY of the following:
1.Cheering crowds of Iraqi’s greeting US troops
2.Searing testimony from recently freed victims of Saddams torturers
3.Iraqi chemical and biological weapons
4.Iraqi nuclear weapon research
will be either ignored by Hobgoblin, or more likely, dismissed as so much propaganda by the evil Yankees.

CAN'T SPEAK TO THE IGNORING AND DISMISSING, BUT TWO OF THE FOUR ARE DONE DEALS AND THE OTHER TWO WILL FOLLOW.

Oxygenee:
During the first days of the war, Al Jazeera will air footage of the first buildings destroyed by US missiles. AT EACH AND EVERY SITE, an Iraqi government official will pull a dusty sign from the ruins reading, in English, EITHER “Baby Formula Production Facility” OR “Youth Camp for Special Needs Children”.

THEY DID MUCH THE SAME THING.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Quidam (Artemis)
Absinthe Mafia
Username: Artemis

Post Number: 690
Registered: 10-2000


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2003 - 12:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"It's just that I'm alergic to lies"

Then the one in your mouth about Three Mile Island must be making you itch. Here's the cure:

Excerpt from Time Magazine article of Saturday, Oct. 12, 2002, "Against Nukephobia" by Leon Jaroff:

The anti-nuke activists have been wrong for decades. Nuclear plants have operated in the U.S. for a half century and. Despite some poor management, with the exception of Three Mile island they have had only minor leaks and mechanical failures. Now consider this: Three Mile
Island was by far the worst U.S. nuclear accident, and activists for years have been blaming the partial meltdown for a host of ills, particularly for what they claim are high cancer rates in the surrounding region.

Pennsylvania health authorities have consistently challenged those charges and were proven correct in 2000, when the prestigious University of Pittsburgh School of Public Health completed a 13-year study of 32,000 people who lived within five miles of TMI at the time of the accident. The study found no significant increase in the incidence of any kind of cancer in that group compared with the incidence in those living at greater distances from the plant. Indeed, there is no evidence that the TMI disaster caused any cancer, let alone any death.

End of excerpt.

So, to answer your incredibly ignorant question, no, the facility in Iraq was not in any way like Three Mile Island, or any other U.S. nuclear facility.
Quelle vie ont eue nos grands-parents
Entre l'absinthe et les grands-messes... ?

Administration Administration Log Out Log Out   Previous Page Previous Page Next Page Next Page