Oxygénée found in paris

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archives Thru July 2001: Topics Archived thru April 2001:Topics Archived thru April 2001:Oxygénée found in paris
By Joshua on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 01:00 pm: Edit

when i first tried my mari mayans,i took one dose,and put it on the shelf,it was the most acrid,horrid taste i had ever had,i doubt i finished the glass i had,but later i was admiring its anti freeze hue,and dared taste it again,this time with two sugar cubes,much better,i think it does have some kinda effects,a verlaine-esque stupor,but at the same time my mind is firing away.i guess its like any chemical,different people feel different things

By Don_Walsh on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:50 am: Edit

Well, I have my own suspicions about MM, but pending hard test results they remain suspicions. What is obvious is the very heavy reliance on star anise, (almost or actually) exclusively, no matter whether the stuff is distilled over herbs, or mixed from essential oils, or a combination of the two techniques. MM's claim to multiple distillations is highly ambiguous, as a steam distillation of an essential oils is a 'distillation' isn't it? Even though no alcohol is involved. The MM people can be playing with words in this way. This is pure speculation -- and I bear no ill will to MM or my good friend James Gordom of New Millenium, I hasten to add. However, I am not revealing any secrets here. About MM I have none to reveal.

By Ekmass on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:39 am: Edit

Sounds good, I reckon I will have finished the bottle by then, rather I know I will have.
EM

By Absinthesque on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:39 am: Edit

Regarding Mari Mayans, I must say that my subjective experience is that it has stronger secondary effects than just about any brand on the market, and different ones too. While other absinthes generally intensify dreams and create a slightly more clear-headed intoxication than other drinks, Mari Mayans tends to make me feel very wired, sometimes well into the day after drinking it. Perhaps this is a reaction to its very high alcohol content, but it's not typical of the way I respond to alcohol, and I was very surprised by the earlier and quesitonable test results on MM.

I think it's interesting to note that there's quite a diversity of subjective responses to the various absinthes currently on the market. I don't quite know what to make of it. I'm eager to read the results of Ted's research; perhaps it will clarify things.

By Don_Walsh on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:30 am: Edit

Ekmass, you will have the opportunity to taste the perfect replica of antique premium E.Pernod absinthe soon enough. In about three weeks, I should say.

Somehow I suspect that you will lose interest in Oxygenee soon thereafter.

By Ekmass on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:22 am: Edit

Fair enough Don. Now considering I know next to nothing about chemistry I was going on hearsay about "thujone" levels. Neverthess, I think you understood my main point which is that Pernod is using a clever bit of marketing (however bad at marketing they are) to get some of the "absinthe" market. Thujone or no thujone - frankly I could care less if it is in any drink you call absinthe. What Oxy does have in it is AA, my toungue and nose tell me so, and that as well as the taste is what matters.

Just for the record, I never mentioned anything about Oxy tasting like antique absinthe since I have never tried it I would not know.
Cheers
EM

By Don_Walsh on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 07:06 am: Edit

I don't think you ^KNOW^ anything about the levels of thujone in anything. Have you tested MM or Oxygenee for thujone, yourself? Would you even know how to do so?

No.

Therefore, you are arguing from hearsay and speculation and that is an untenable platform.

Testing for thujone is a highly technical and tricky procedure involing multiple ambiguities. The UK authorities, who wrote the procedure, often get it WRONG. Then when the vendors protest it is redone and usually comes out right (lower.)

Ted has not made any pronouncements as to results of his rigorous testing, which is in any case ongoing.

Earlier reports from other Forum chemists have been called into question as to methodology, while they are undoubtedly sincere they are not reliable.

I would certainly agree that Oxygenee is Pernod-Ricard's effort to enter the FRENCH market with an absinthe substitute acceptable to the FRENCH public, who are unlikely to accept any real absinthe. Like its ancestor, Oxygenee is not a proper absinthe IMHO although it may well be a tasty absinthe substitute. It certainly is not a pastis per se. Does it taste like antique absinthe? I doubt it.

But arguing that Oxygenee is an absinthe if MM is an absinthe is futile unless you have solid evidence as to MM, and you can't. New Millenium and the MM distillery both staunchly claim that it is absinthe, and contains absinthium and thujone. As yet no one has made a credible case to the contrary.

By Ekmass on Monday, April 30, 2001 - 04:47 am: Edit

Ok let's look at this way. As we know MM which is called Absinthe has a negligible level of thujone. Oxy in my opinion is Pernod's effort to aquire this new absinthe market by using AA at the EU levels of thujone.

By Petermarc on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 09:17 am: Edit

let's look at it this way (for a few seconds, at least) if thujone is not a vital component of what makes absinthe 'absinthe' then even if it were 'reduced'or non-existent, it wouldn't change the effect or the product as long as there was artemisia absinthium as a 'major' ingredient and it was made following a recipe for absinthe (i am sure there are many, and quite different ones, at that)...the side label of oxygénée mentions it specifically by name and has a sketch of the plant next to 'artemisia absinthium' along with a picture of the plant on the front label...i think it should be clear that this is an ingredient of this liquor (or a major scam that would be pretty tough for pernod, of all companies, to live down)...eric and i will drink more tonight and discuss my findings...;-)

By Petermarc on Saturday, April 28, 2001 - 03:17 am: Edit

the new pernod product 'henri-louis pernod' a distilled anis liquor, has far more sugar in it than oxygénée...

By Don_Walsh on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Oxygenee appears to be aimed at the French domestic market, so I am not surprised it is sugared. Pastis can be as much as 100 g sugar per liter. That's more than 10% w/w. An Amer (dry) anis liqueur, is less sugared but can still be sugared up to a lower maximum...Oxygenee is neither but is probably closer to the latter than to pastis.

By Don_Walsh on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 08:57 pm: Edit

1. Why would anyone believe anything said by Hills?

2. Mme. D. apparently does not drink, socially, but I hardly think that would preclude her from tasting in the manner of a wine taster. For knowledge not intoxication. Furthermore, I am sure that as proprietor of her Museum a regulatory condition will be that the old absinthes she possesses are not for drinking. Just as the La Fee people in Paris (no, Heiko, Hills does not make LF) and their counterparts in Le Havre are proscribed from tasting their own product, these are formalities. Lip service must be given to formalities. But let's be realistic. An absinthe distiller who has never tasted? An absinthe collector and historian who has never tasted? I don't think so.

By Tabreaux on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Being that I work with only traditional materials and methods, I find that neither La Fee or Oxygenee taste to me like artisanal products. They may or may not be, but I find that they just don't taste it. There could be several reasons for this. Like you, I find that La Fee has a certain oily texture typical of the Spanish products. On the other hand, my biggest complaint against Oxygenee is that typical of modern French liqueurs (e.g. pastis, anis, etc.), it appears to contain a significant concentration of added sugar.

By Germanandy on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:18 pm: Edit

peter,

i agree!

By Petermarc on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:01 pm: Edit

i have just finished having a glass of oxygénée and a glass of la fée...there is no doubt in my mind that oxygénée is better than la fée (for me)...nicer color,peridot as opposed to blue/green, an opalescent louche as opposed to freaky green oil slick, and a scent and flavor more sophisticated (if i can use that term)...herbal-mint as opposed to candy-like mint of la fée, albeit herbal, and more alcoholic with a kind of butt-smell i had not noticed before...oxygénée, at 55%, it still packs an effect after one glass that goes beyond alcohol... i had the la fée after it, and noticed nothing special...it would not surprise me if this was made by someone who had not tasted original absinthe, since i take ted's word (and others) that JL is what the (better) originals tasted like...it is disturbing to me that someone would create something to consume and not try it themselves, but i'm sure this happens more often than i would like...it is altogether possible that la fée tastes like a product of the past, just the same that oxygénée could...

By Tabreaux on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 09:57 am: Edit

It is my understanding that Ms. Delahaye does not drink. If this is significant, I do not know.

The context of what the Hill's people said in the article was something like 'admittedly, she has never tasted old absinthe'. The meaning of this seems clear, if factual. This was their defense of the horrid taste of their product. They seemed to defend the color of their product by implying that it was created due to an obscure reference by someone that absinthe had a slight blue tint. Well, if you color something with coppper sulfate, you would get this. The sad irony is that Hill's is probably similar in color to the most inferior of adulterated products back in the day. How appropriate!

So long as someone is capable of reading the descriptions of the taste of old absinthe, it is not difficult to determine that most modern products do not fit the description. It is amusing that if you go to a site like La Boheme, you can read these descriptive, flowery descriptions, yet none of the obviously artificial products fit....at all.

Could someone with a handful of old protocols and written flavor descriptions figure La Fee to be 'authentic' (i.e. satisfying old descriptions) assuming they had not tasted any of the top-label originals? I think this is a reasonable assumption.

By Heiko on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 08:40 am: Edit

Don, I didn't know she owns hundreds of bottles of old Absinthe (wow!).
Then she has very probably tasted it...
Is La Fée made by Hill's distillery? Why then would they say she doesn't know what the original tastes like?

??? "We asked an expert for our new product - she doesn't have a clue though!" ???

Marketing à la Oxygénée ???

By Don_Walsh on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 08:27 am: Edit

Heiko, Mme DelaHaye aside, no one who has never tasted antique absinthe ought to be relied upon as an authority on what antique absinthe tasted like new or tastes like today. That Mme D. owns a hundred or more bottles of old absinthe certainly does not suggest a lack of opportunity to taste some, and if she hasn't then she is worthless to the makers of Hills (and GB/GM) as an expert on the design of La Fee.

Sort of like getting sex cousneling from a priest, or culinary advice on a barbecue from a lifelong vegetarian, or a desert survival course taught by a fish...

By Heiko on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 06:14 am: Edit

"The makers of Hill's claimed in a Czech article that Madame Delahaye has never tasted original absinthe."

- Maybe, why not? Why would she need to taste original Absinthe? I think she is more interested in its history than in its taste...

Without having tasted original Absinthe, she can say that original Absinthe did probably not taste like cheap bubble-gum. Hill's does, so it's no way near the original taste. This is easy, even I can say that...

By Heiko on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 06:01 am: Edit

Well, I guess the fact that some animals eat nasty things before we eat them is the most natural thing - we shouldn't worry about that too much. What I worry about is that most artificial food deceives your mind. Take artificial sweeteners as an example: You drink diet coke, your tongue tastes sweet, your brain says "sugar" and raises the insuline levels - but there is no sugar, so you get hungry. This is no wild assumption, this mechanism is used by farmers for pigs. Really, pigs are fed with artificial sweeteners to make them more hungry. In addition to that, some of the sweeteners might cause cancer - I better stay with real "oh so unhealthy" sugar...

I recently heard in an interview with someone from an industrial-food company (he admitted this pretty openly) that they had to add artifical (and so called 'natural') flavors to their food products, because otherwise nobody would eat them, and if people knew exactly where they got all these flavors from, nobody would eat the food either, that's why they wouldn't show all of their production processes...

Just some common sources for 'natural' flavors are: mould and wood shavings.....

In my opinion this would not be too bad, what I fear is that behind these flavors, the actual 'food' is less healthy than a bowl of wood-shavings...

By Wormwood on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 04:23 am: Edit

"The makers of Hill's claimed in a Czech article that Madame Delahaye has never tasted original absinthe."

I don't know if it true or not either but I would like to belive it is not.

If the people at Hill said Hue Hefner was a virgin I would not believe that either. Even if I have no proof, the circumstantial evedence is overwelming.

By Aion on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:42 am: Edit

Peter,

Good reason to change eating habits and become vegetarian.
Oops, forgot that the plants are "fed" with dung
as well - no way out

A.

By Aion on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:37 am: Edit

Don
Didn´t assume any commercially motivation in your remark.
My deepest respect to you and Ted for your purism and perfectionism! That is the right way to do things, no contradiction.
So please calm down. We know that it is not easy for both of you to be confrontated with that huge demand for your products and have to wait and wait because of bureaucratic chicane.
But please understand, that nothing will be able
to force me to drink Absinthes like DEVA, MM, LASALA (if these contain absinthium anyway) any further, I like Pontarlier Anis and Oxygenee better, I like Segarra and Sebor as well. I have some LaBleue, really tasty, but not better than the other products.
And I never insisted on the fact Oxygenee is Absinthe, on the contrary, I am absolutely sure that not even one commercial product on todays market is.
So I drink these products now and dream of Jade.

A.

By Petermarc on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:19 am: Edit

wine is spoiled grape juice and vinegar is spoiled wine...

By Petermarc on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:12 am: Edit

the difference between gourmet and trash food is very slight...lobsters and shrimp eat shit and if they lived on land, we would have exterminators...oysters, clams, etc. eat shit... goose/duck livers filter wastes...escargot is a slimy bug...cheese is coagulated milk, and the 'finest' is putrefied and moldy...etc.etc.etc.

By Zack on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 01:04 am: Edit

Awe, Verawench...Your posts are too close to mine...If you don't have plans for the 5th (May) E-mail me, there is a party on Riverside. (Anyone else in the area feel free to E-mail me also, but this is a UT party, if you would feel out-of-place, you might not want to attend.)

By Don_Walsh on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:59 am: Edit

Aion, dammit, I am continually irritated by the assumption on the part of some people that any remnark I make MUST be commercially motivated.

My remarks are aesthetically and if you will, ideologically motivated. In fact, so is the commercial enterprise.

You want to drink absinthe substitutes or pastis, it's no skin off my nose. Just don't peddle the BS that these are absinthe.

By Zack on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:58 am: Edit

Hey, we don't know what the animals eat before we kill them, but I assure you it is more than mud! My family owns a few acres south of SA and we lease it to a guy who keeps about 20 head of cattle there. Sometimes these beasts eat more than I do! And, I guarantee I am no 100lb boney (200lbs+) young lad.

By Verawench on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:47 am: Edit

"How perverse can mankind be?"

Don't make me answer that :P

By Verawench on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:46 am: Edit

I don't want my coffee without caffeine. I don't want my eggs without cholesterol. I don't want my butter without fat. I don't want my cheese without cheese. I don't want my beef ground, frozen, defrosted, then grilled to greasy perfection. I don't want high fructose corn syrup in my fruit juice. Corn is not a fruit. And damnit, I don't want my absinthe "thujone-reduced".

**disable rant mode***

Verawench

By Aion on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:41 am: Edit

Kallisti!!

The message editor still doesn´t work.

A.

By Aion on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:30 am: Edit

Malhomme, Emiliano, Heiko:

I am forced to add a few words to the trash food discussion.
Every time I go to a supermarket I feel like being in
a chamber of torture.
Who on earth needs for example bread already cut into slices (no, not packed, sold
open per piece) or packed chopped speck (in small cubes) of packed and frozen chopped onion??
Who eats all that different brands of instant mayonnaise, that stuff is only consisting of preservatives and tasting of nothing else. Everybody would have the ingredients at home,
and it would cost less than 10 minutes of time. And the result would be superior, even if you
are the worst cook on earth.
The German word for food is LEBENSmittel, and the meaning of this word says that there should be some life in it to give vigor to the person who eats it. But most of the food today never lived, and if it lived I am not sure if that could be called life.
Heard of a case somewhere in Europe where cattle and pigs were fed with the mud from
a purification plant. Can you believe that, the animals eat our shit, we eat the animals, se we eat our own shit plus some other nice things.
How perverse can mankind be?

A.

By Aion on Friday, April 27, 2001 - 12:27 am: Edit

Don,

Be assured that we will talk of nothing else but
Jade, once we have it.
But in the meantime we need something else to drink, and this Oxygenee and Pontarlier Anis as well are really nice and tasty products.

A.

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:48 pm: Edit

Absinthe isn't absinthe without absinthium. Oxygenee, if it isn't made with a substantial amount of absinthium, isn't absinthe.

And what the hell is 'dethujonized' absinthium?

Dead vegetable matter.

Oxygenee is neither fish nor fowl.

By Netsurfer on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 10:13 pm: Edit

à votre service.


"At your service"

By Mr_Rabbit on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 10:06 pm: Edit

"Hello. We are happy that you received the bottles and that you liked those. With regard to this product, know that we can provide it to you without problems in the future, the production continues. We thank you for your confidence Pascal Liébeaux, with your service. "

I don't speak French either, but this web page does: http://babelfish.altavista.com/

By Aion on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Just received this answer from La Vinotheque
to my question, if Oxygenee is actually produced (and can be backordered if their stock runs out),
or if it is only the remainder of a trial production.

As I do not speak French I ask anyone to translate. Thanks!

***
Bonjour.
Nous sommes heureux que vous ayez reçu les bouteilles et que celles-ci vous aient plu.
En ce qui concerne ce produit, sachez que nous pouvons vous le fournir sans problèmes dans le futur, la production continue.
Nous vous remercions pour votre confiance
Pascal Liébeaux, à votre service.
***

By Tlautrec on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 05:28 pm: Edit

"But if you're only drinking absinthe for the
thujone, it wouldn't matter."

Right on. If one is just looking for a "kick" and doesn't care about taste, sociability, or the aesthetic or the mystical sensibility associated with the enjoyment of a fine beverage, you can buy a vial of wormwood oil (not de-thujonized) for $15 in Berkeley and use a few drops of it to dose a couple of ounces of Pernod or Ouzo. Tastes pretty bad, but it's cheap, it does the trick .... and it's perfectly legal.

By Tabreaux on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 02:21 pm: Edit

I can say with all assurance that in my testing (final round being prepared to commence), no commercial product will escape the wrath of chemical analysis.

This talk of oils and exclusion of thujone seems to be very fishy. Absente claims to do the same thing, no? Of course, they exclude the 'evil thujone' by using 'petite absinthe', which is not absinthium. Is this simple practice exclusive to Absente? I doubt it. In fact, I strongly doubt anyone can give an adequate explanation of Oxygenee other than the maker. What we are getting is layman-grade information intended for public consumption. We'll need more detail to make anything of it, and that can only come from an insider. Of course Petermarc, you can see that this is like trying to swim uphill!

As Petermarc pointed out, France seems virtually as devoid of absinthe expertise as anywhere else. The makers of Hill's claimed in a Czech article that Madame Delahaye has never tasted original absinthe. I have no idea as to the validity of this statement, but I've learned not to rule out the possibility of anything where this subject is concerned.

By _Blackjack on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 01:21 pm: Edit


Quote:

What we need is someone with the proper equipment to run a thujone test on Oxygene.



We do, to wit, Ted. He's been in the process of doing thujone testing of various absinthes for a while. I don't know if he is including Oxygenee in his testing, but I know he's had some in his hands, so he might have. Ted?

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 01:13 pm: Edit

let's get one thing clear, no one i have talked to about absinthe in france knows shit, except phil, and unfortunately, it has been too long since i talked to marie-clude delahaye, and i didn't know shit then, and don't know much more now...

By Pataphysician on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 01:07 pm: Edit

>>If someone tell me that it`s possible to have this plant in it without thujone, I will only answer : '' ok so that`s like caffeine-free coffee : undrinkable copy...''
>>

To which I'd reply: a well done decaffeinated coffee tastes better than a caffeinated cup of instant coffee. If you're only drinking for the caffeine, though, it wouldn't matter.

By the same analogy, I'd rather have Oxygenee than Hills (though I haven't tried either one). But if you're only drinking absinthe for the thujone, it wouldn't matter.

By Wolfgang on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit

We are babbling for nothing... What we need is someone with the proper equipment to run a thujone test on Oxygene. Then we will have a good idea if there`s a.absintium in the bottle.

If someone tell me that it`s possible to have this plant in it without thujone, I will only answer : '' ok so that`s like caffeine-free coffee : undrinkable copy...''

Wolf.

By Absinthesque on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 12:25 pm: Edit

interesting about the oils. sounds like manguin is trying to do the same thing, suggesting that the plant content of their product is the same as traditional absinthe, but the essential oil containing thujone has not been added. i didn't think essential oils were added to classic absinthe anyway.

i wonder if this is an attempt to find a loophole in french law or if it's merely a deceptive marketing ploy. as indicated in another thread, i will post my translation of the manguin label tonight along with a more complete review.

mark

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 11:34 am: Edit

ok, i just got back from my local cavist with two bottles...1)oxygénée...i quizzed him about it, since he is good with wine, 'is it new?' no, it is an old mark that has come back, look i have an enamel sign..(points to sign on wall, original, no cats with sunglasses, freaky van gogh,etc.( he had it before he had oxygénée, i had seen it there with his other old signs)'is it really absinthe?' yes, exactly the same except it has only 55° alcohol, the old ones had more alcohol and copper in them. 'but absinthe is illegal in france' no, not this (looks at label on bottle that explains thujone)it has all the same plants but an oil was removed that was considered toxic, but it's really the same except that there's no copper and that oil...

it is obvious that pernod has not armed it's new sellers of oxygénée with high pressure marketing tactics, promotional material or even 'real information' for that matter...but it's cheaper than la vinotheque (188 francs-$25) and i can walk 3 minutes to pick up a bottle...

what's in it for you? i asked if he would ship to the usa and he said it depended on what state/city and if it is a small amount, 2/3 bottles...he shipped a palette of something to JFK and it didn't get through...so, it maybe worth a try...i would FAX...the prices are approximate since my credit card bill does not jibe with what i thought were the prices he gave me...certain numbers are very hard for me to translate and remember in french because they sound like different english numbers or start with the same letter, and confuse me...sorry)

les caves du roy
31 rue simart
75018 paris
tel 33-1-42-23-99-11
FAX 33-1-42-23-06-95

the other bottle?
'henri-louis pernod' anis aux plantes et aux épices
(i couldn't see the label clearly on the shelf and thought it said 'absinthe' not 'anis' and got real excited)
but no such luck...however, this is a distilled anis made with star anis, green anis, mint, fennel, coriander and other 'exotic spices'
this is a newer product than oxygénée ...the color is light amber and louches muddy white/yellow...it is sweet enough to have without sugar, and i like sugar...it is more complex than most (read all) pastis and has a similar aroma as JL's nouvelle orleans, gingerbread...it was made to compete with henri bardouin, i imagine, and is better...170 francs ($23)...
what is funny?
the back label of h-l pernod has the address for pernod/cusenier in créteil (the mysterious distillery?) and oxygénée has the address for pernod/ricard in paris (offices) where no one knew about the product...ok, maybe it's just me after all this....

By Malhomme on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 10:39 am: Edit

Emiliano,
I'm glad you liked the description! I really liked yours ("whitewater"), but I would as a former kayaker.

In all of our local microbakeries the bread has a kind of sameness. It's more like the result of an imagined ideal than the product of real life. I grew up among professional bakers (3 generations) and have come to expect a thing or two from my bread.

A few of years ago I collected wild yeast from local grapes: mashed the grapes and fermented them from the yeast that had dusted their skins, strained off the liquor and added flour; then over the course of several weeks I divided and refreshed this mixture until nary a trace of the original wine could be detected. I then have used this starter (chef -->levain) over the years to produce the finest French bread I have ever tasted.

But the starter can only account for so much of the result. I use traditional methods for handling my dough (autolyse, fraisage, proper kneading and forming techniques) to create a bread truly worthy of a world religion.

I doubt that it is made this way anymore, perhaps not even in its country of origin. Most of the local microbakeries use machine formers, enzymes, malt extractives, high-tech yeasts.... It's a real shame that real bread is all but non-existent. People will guard and protect their religious beliefs far more doggedly than they will their culinary identity. Which is the greater loss?

Jim

By Heiko on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 10:11 am: Edit

Are you sure those "micro"-bakeries make EVERYTHING themselves according to traditional ways (means REAL flower without additives such as enzymes...)? Usually nowadays no bakery can make it without buying at least some readymade stuff from the big companies.
About 5 years ago, there was one little bakery in our town that really made pretzels like their grandparents had shown them - nowhere else you could buy pretzels like these. Suddenly even they changed something and the pretzels became more and more like anybody else's (still much better than supermarket stuff, but not "perfect").

By Melinelly on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:58 am: Edit

haha, i'm gonna have to come up with a dish and call it "wet, lifeless, brown dog" just for you, Jim! that's another awesome description =)

as or fresh bread, make your way up to the bay area =) we've got probably at least a dozen "micro" bakeries who deliver fresh bread daily throughout the area... Semifreddi's, Grace, Beckman's...

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:29 am: Edit

Do you think she wanted an international Fan club Peter?

By Malhomme on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:27 am: Edit

"Most people don't even know how the real thing tastes like and so companies can make money with cheap, unhealthy trash... "

' ********* Begin Rant ***********

Yesterday someone served me "Roast Beef with Gravy". It came from the supermarket in a plastic "butter-dish" container. The result: a foul and stringy mess, that looked like a wet, lifeless, brown dog. The texture was terrible, the taste was worse. The smell was assaulting to my senses. I gagged on the first bite.

Later on I discreetly pulled the container from the garbage and read it. "A quality product from H.E.B. We feel so certain of the quality of this product that if for any reason you are disappointed with it we will gladly refund your money." OOOO-kayyyy. The ingredients: "Beef, water, modified food starch...[it just gets worse]". How they must have gotten "gravy" from these ingredients is appalling. Uggh!!!

I feel like we need to fight to get our food back. Just simple things, like "French Bread" in our supermarkets, "guaranteed fresh or it's free" (ie, no need for preservatives), is chock-full of preservatives and unnecessary additives. What ever happened to an ingredient list for French bread that is: flour, yeast, salt, water???

Okay, where's my blood pressure medicine?
' ********** End Rant *********

Jim

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:23 am: Edit

here's her e-mail Evelyne_BREVILLET@pernod.fr
i'm sure she'd love to hear from everybody...she even told me someone from the usa had already contacted her...i mentioned arizona, and although she didn't exactly say yes...

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:06 am: Edit

Heiko

Nestlé own the old Pernod factory not Pernod

By Heiko on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 09:01 am: Edit

Grimbergen, even Nestlé owns most food brand names today, I'm a little shocked that they already own Pernod...
If you look at company names on food more closely, you will often find out, that "X", who made it, belongs to "Y", which is a daughter of Nestlé - scary...

Maybe they are about to grow genetically enhanced thujone-free wormwood to "reproduce" Pernod Absinthe - "refined" in a whole new sense...

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:55 am: Edit

i was creating a conversation with myself when i had her on the line, because she wasn't bursting with full-fruit information, if you know what i mean...

By Heiko on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:52 am: Edit

Peter, "'to reduce the thujone?' i asked...uh, yes, came the unsure response...." - that reminds me of something: I once asked a guy in a computer store "is this an LX chipset?" (which would have been crap, I wanted a better BX) - "Oh yes, of course!" he proudly replied - actually it was the (much better) BX, which I found out myself after looking at it more closely...

-I guess you could have asked "to increase the thujone?" - the answer might have been "yes" as well. In 90% of cases, answering "yes" to a customer's question will make him buy more likely...

By Tabreaux on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:42 am: Edit

"Most people don't even know how the real thing tastes like and so companies can make money with cheap, unhealthy trash..."


This could not have been better said. Amen.

By Grimbergen on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:42 am: Edit

"Something we have to live with in the days of nestlé..."

I don't know if you've heard this, but it has been reported here that the old pernod factory is now a Nestle factory!! First they take over our absinthe distilleries then they pervert our food!

By Tabreaux on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:40 am: Edit

Peter, I am merely saying that if Pernod claims that Oxygenee is a reproduction of old Pernod Fils, it is untrue. Such a fallacy would only be propagated for purposes of profit at the expense of truth (e.g. Absente). If Pernod is making no such claim, than this is a moot point.

When given comments like 'absinthe refined' or 'modified to reduce thujone', I tend to question the validity of certain things for obvious reasons.

If you go to the physical address to check it out, fill us in.

By Heiko on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:35 am: Edit

I just thought about the "original recipe" almost every producer of modern Absinthe is speaking about:

Can you tell me if there is something that you can buy in supermarkets nowadays which is NOT artificially colored & flavored? From frozen pizza to artificially colored and flavored yoghurt, everyone claims that his food tastes like "grandma made it" - that is obviously not true, but every producer says its food is made according to traditional recipes.

Something we have to live with in the days of nestlé...

I bet most of the food we eat today compared to "real" food from a hundred years ago is like Absente compared to E.Pernod: Most people don't even know how the real thing tastes like and so companies can make money with cheap, unhealthy trash...

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:25 am: Edit

ted,
there doesn't seem to be anything here to indicate that pernod is doing anything with oxygénée for marketing and profit...

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:23 am: Edit

i believe the address for pernod/cusenier in creteil (just outside of paris) is also a distillery, although i'm not sure...i bet la fée is made there by pernod...and the woman at pernod never said it was an original recipe for pernod, i would imagine since pernod bought cusenier, and are using their brand, it was for oxygénée...all is just speculation, based on the 'wealth' of available information...

By Tabreaux on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:18 am: Edit

There is no doubt in my mind that Oxygenee is artificially colored. Original Oxygenee used a then-novel process which was purportedly supposed to make it 'clean', but there was no way to prove that it worked. Quite honestly, I feel it was more of a sales-gimmick than anything else.

As far as being told 'modified to reduce the thujone', that sounds just a little too much like 'absinthe refined' to me. I would doubt the authenticity of its method of preparation, and I would doubt the inclusion of A. absinthium as a whole herbs (and possibly the inclusion of other herbs as well). I don't think Pernod went very far out of their way to make this product if you get what I mean.

Until someone who is imtimate with the method of fabrication comes forward and gives a sound, detailed explanation of what 'reduced thujone' means, it appears as nothing more than smoke and mirrors to me, all for the sake of marketing and profit.

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 08:05 am: Edit

Read the label carefully. If there is an number like E151a (just as an example) which is an EU designation of a food coloring agent, then obviously the stuff is articially colored (as we would expect.)

I recently was looking at a cheap French 'Napoleon' in a supermarket here. Comte de Somery 'French Spirits' despite the conspicuous Bottled in France and the NAPOLEON in big letters, is not brandy. It is 'spirits of agricultural origin', with 2% brandy (for flavor) and a E-numbered dye, probably caramel, for color, to ape the aging process mandated for brandy. Which is why in a Bangkok supermarket, after high taxes, it is $4.40 cents (199 baht) for 70 cl of 40%.


Napoleon ought be spinning in his grave.

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:47 am: Edit

I just wonder because if Pernod/Cusenier have gone to the trouble of branding and labelling the product as if it were a copy of the original might they also have used an authentic Oxygénée recipe? I don't know whether the original was artificially coloured (Oxy seems to be as the bottle that I have is of clear glass and the colour is still bright as the modern product).

On another subject, I notice that the latest La Fée marketing blurb says that it is distilled in Paris. Noticed any distillaries around your way Peter?

By Tabreaux on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:36 am: Edit

Now that I do not know. Oxygenee has a drier, better balanced flavor than many modern products, which makes it more 'authentic' in that regard. Quite honestly, I find that it tastes somewhat strange, but in a pleasant way. A reproduction of Pernod Fils however, it is not.

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:31 am: Edit

but is it in any way similar to the original Oxygénee, or post ban Oxy?

By Tabreaux on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:27 am: Edit

"was told it was absinthe, from the old original recipe"

This statement is not any better than Absente's marketing. Oxygenee certainly is not made via the original Pernod Fils method!!! It bears virtually no resemblance to the original Pernod Fils (or any other original I've encoutered).

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 07:25 am: Edit

Way to go Peter, I'm on my way over...

By Petermarc on Thursday, April 26, 2001 - 06:58 am: Edit

i just got an e-mail from pernod with the addresses that sell oxygénée in paris...one is just two blocks from me...i hope this makes it easier for those who plan to come to france, maybe one of these places will ship it with less hassles than vinotheque (although, in france, it was not a problem) again i asked if this was absinthe or pastis and was told it was absinthe, from the old original recipe, but modified--'to reduce the thujone?' i asked...uh, yes, came the unsure response....

Nectarine Sarl 64 rue Rambuteau - 75003 Paris
Sous les Pavés la Vigne 119 Bd Magenta - 75010 Paris
Nectarine Sarl 129 Bd Voltaire - 75011 Paris
Tous à la Cave 119 rue L-M Nordmann - 75013 Paris
Les Caves du Roy 31 rue Simard - 75018 Paris

chin, chin...

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