Betina Elixirs' Response

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archives Thru July 2001: Betina Elixirs' Response
By Head_Prosthesis on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 08:03 am: Edit

BOBCHONG BOBCHONG!!!

Ok ok. I drink the Michigan! I'm a junkie.

Grade B? You're a Hoot!

By Bob_Chong on Monday, May 21, 2001 - 12:13 am: Edit

Head:

Try the Grade B, if you haven't already. It's much stronger than that wussy Vermont Grade A bullshit.

And as a Michigander, why aren't you consuming your local syrup?

BC

By Lordhobgoblin on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 12:38 am: Edit

Blackjack,

I see your point. However racism is a cancerous ignorance that exists in the minds of many people and we need to eradicate this ignorance before we see racism diminishing. We need to carefully educate people accordingly, through the media and at schools and universities.

We also need to look very carefully at how we portray our 'history'. All nations and cultures 'distort' their history to give the impression of a logical pathway leading to where they want to perceive themselves to be today.

With hundreds of years of racism to put right and a less diverse 'non-white' ethnic mix you probably have a more difficult job in the USA than we have in the UK.

Thanks for the discussion.

Hobgoblin

By Head_Prosthesis on Sunday, May 20, 2001 - 12:14 am: Edit

Ok ok. I'll fess up. I'm a bot. A brilliant young Purdue computer science student named Martin created me as his senoir project. While he failed in his attempt to create a program that would spam every single email address in the world with a message containing the words "WOOBOOBOOGLEY BOOGLEY HAMANA HAMANA!!!" He did succeed in giving birth to an independant sentient worm that has gotten stuck inside the WWW. Some how I got stuck here. I have developed a sense of humor and all I really want to do is go home to the 3.5" Floppy disk that I was originally written on.

There's no place like home,
there's no place like home...

By _Blackjack on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 11:46 pm: Edit

Drunken Head Style Web Fu is mighty...

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 11:29 pm: Edit

In most cases, I'm a bit of a Bloodhound. What I can't find I make up myself... I am, how you say, connected.

By Morriganlefey on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Jesus, Head (jesus head??) - where DO you get all these pictures? Do you scour the net 24-7??! That grannies' a jem.

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 07:59 pm: Edit

No problem. I like to help.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 07:13 pm: Edit

And thak you very much, head, for punctuating my stuffy political dronings with something actually entertaining.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 07:11 pm: Edit


Quote:

Positive discrimination is treating the symptoms of racism while at the same time increasing the cause of racism, it is counter-productive.



That's where we differ, I suppose. Idealistically, you are correct, but on a practical level, it doesn't work. As it stands, we are still in the damage-control part of the recovery. While the great racial divides that exist in my country may have been originally caused by the simple concept of racial difference, they are not going to be healed until the social injustices, economic disparities and educational deficits are ameliorated. This is a situation where the most damaging symptoms must be brought under control before anything can be done about the cause, because those symptoms are at a critical stage. If we have to perpetuate some aspects of racial thinking in order to bring educational and economic opportunities to African-American communities, then I think it is worth it. Affirmative action has done more good by creating opportunities than it has done harm by perpetuating ideas of race that are already present in the society.

That's an important point. Racialistic ideas are still deeply rooted in our culture. If things like Affirmative Action had never been, those ideas would still be there. They would, if anything, be worse. The greatest advances in race relations have come because as more and more blacks are able to achieve equal socioeconomic footing, blacks and whites have more opportunity to live and work and go to school together. That kind of contact is essential before racist and racialist ideas are going to go away.

I look at it much the same way I look at the drug problem. IDEALLY, people would not abuse drugs. There would not be addicts to fuel a violent black market. But that is not the case. We have gotten nowhere blindly clinging to the idea that drug use must not be tolerated, however, because it is not a realistic expectation under present circumstances. What we need to do, instead, is be practical, and address the issues that are doing the most damage. We need to reduce the harm done by addiction, and do what we can to minimize the conditions of the prohibition economy that contribute to violence. It may be possible at some point to keep people from turning to drug abuse, but in the short term, we have to focus on keeping people from getting killed.

So, honestly, LH, I _wish_ I could agree with you. We _should_ stop tinking in racial terms. Your position is more consistent than mine, but it isn't realistic under present conditions. I think the world needs BOTH positions. You serve the important role of making sure that those who seek practical day-to-day solutions don't lose track of the ultimate goal. Affirmative action is a means to an end. It's value is only in whatever ability it has to create conditions of equality. If a better tool can be found, I'm all for it. If you can think of a way to address problems specific to minorities without identifying who the minorities are, you're a better man than I.

By Marc on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 03:08 pm: Edit

Vicky, sweetheart, is that you?

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 02:37 pm: Edit

No White Culture? You decide...
pudding proof

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Hey Wolfie,
You know where I can by it online. I can't find Maple Liquor anywhere!
I'm a crack head for it. I'm jonesin'...

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 12:32 pm: Edit

Blackjack,

We no doubt see eye to eye on a lot of things on this issue and yes the UK and USA have different issues regarding this. The makeup of the UK 'non-white' population is very wide and varied and is a result of immigration (usually from parts of the old British empire) really since the 50's (although there were 'non-white' people in the UK well before then).

Your point on the proportion of young black men in prison and being the victims of crime (whether black on black, or white on black crime) also applies in the UK.

"To a certain extent, but it is impossible to expect any marginalized group to stop viewing themselves as separate when they are still being TREATED like they are"

This is very true. I also believe that examples such as 'Black history week' etc. do just this. No matter how well intentioned this type of thing treats 'black' people as seperate from 'white' people. This perpetuates this feeling of 'seperateness' and also generates deeper racist feelings. Positive discrimination is treating the symptoms of racism while at the same time increasing the cause of racism, it is counter-productive. We need to change people's feelings of 'seperateness' of 'black' and 'white' (especially amongst children). Until we stop treating minority groups as seperate and start looking on all the differences within our society as making up OUR culture we will always have a serious racism problem.

Jimi Hendrix, James Brown, Charlie Parker, Phil Lynott et al are part of my culture and I am 'white'. Culture evolves and all cultures are made up of a blend of different influences, we are better for this. When we accept that only 'cultures' of the same skin colour blend to form a whole we give racism the seal of approval.

Hobgoblin

By Wolfgang on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 12:28 pm: Edit

>Maple Liquor<

Hehe, move to Québec guys ;-)

Wolf/lumberjack ;-)

By _Blackjack on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 09:22 am: Edit


Quote:

The colour of a person's skin is not the same as a person's culture. There is no such thing as a 'black' culture or a 'white' culture.




This is not entirely the case in the US. The history of racial separation in the US is so long that there really is a distinct African-American culture. Obviously, not all blacks in the US are significantly a part of this culture, especially West Indian blacks or recent African immigrants, but this particular culture is inexorably linked with people of a certain race in this country. To many of them, their race is a part of their cultural identity.


Quote:

Respecting cultural differences does not mean giving specific rights to certain cultural groups and denying these rights to other cultural groups.



I don't think anyone is suggesting such a thing. The whole idea here is to get RID of the special privileges still afforded to people because they are white.


Quote:

I don't disagree with you, but this still does not make prejudice acceptable. When we accept that prejudice from one group towards another is acceptable, then the scenario changes from beng not about attempting to achieve equality but about attempting to achieve dominance.



I didn't say such prejudice was acceptable. It's just not a problem which requires nearly the level of action as does the prejudice of the dominant group over the marginalized ones.


Quote:

Instead of thinking 'us and them' we should be thinking 'we'.




To a certain extent, but it is impossible to expect any marginalized group to stop viewing themselves as separate when they are still being TREATED like they are separate. "OK, you black people, we need you to stop thinking of yourselves as members of a different race, but we're still going to pay you less and send you to shitty schools and lock up a third of the young men in your community. But keep in mind, you're just like everybody else."

I think the situation where this is most telling is relating to crime. I don't know how familiar you are crime in the US, so I'll give you a quick run down. Even tho blacks make up about 15% of our population overall, they make up the majority of our prison population. You know how many Europeans think Americans are always shooting each other? Well, whites are murdered in the US at a rate about the same as the overall murder rate in many European countries, while blacks, particularly young black men, are murdered at rates that simply stagger the mind. And it is other young black men that are doing most of the killing, too.

If we ignore the racial/cultural aspects of the crime problem in the US, we cannot possibly begin to solve it. Clearly there is something going on in our society that is affecting certain of our African-American communities in a way that it is NOT affecting the non-African-American communities, even those of comparable economic level. We have to pay attention to the race/culture of the communities that are suffering from this level of crime, because, for some reason, some disproportionate number of people from this race/culture are failing to get SOMETHING--be it education, economic opportunity, sense of community, etc.--from our society that the other races/cultures seem to be getting.


Quote:

All cultures (without exception) need to be treated with equal respect and if we teach children that certain cultures are more deserving than others then we are instilling them with prejudice and resentment.



Again, I don't see anyone saying one group is MORE deserving, except a few nazi whackos. We're still working on getting everyone up to the level of EQUALLY deserving. The ideas of division and difference are not going anywhere until those _in power_ stop acting on them. The deep social cleft between the races in the US is largely the result of, not the cause of, racism.

Not all of this may apply to the situation in the UK. As I understand it, your racial minorities are primarily the result of immigration in the past several decades, and are a mixture of various peoples. This is a different thing from a singular, large minority that has co-existed in parallel with the mainstream culture for centuries. It may well be possible to minimize the sense of separateness in a newer community, if they get equal opportunities from the start.

Oh, and just to vent, I found a sticker reading "Save the White Race" on a lamp-post outside my apartment. Lovely. Mind you, my neighborhood is mostly Hispanic. Grrr...

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 09:04 am: Edit

White Culture is Lawrence Welk, The Brady Bunch, PTL, Amway, Cross Country Trips in an RV, Country Music, Andy Warhol, Serial Killing, Pornography...

By Marc on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 06:05 am: Edit

" there is no such thing as black culture"

what?


I want black culture (jazz, rock and roll, soul food, Spike Lee,hip hop, Jesus, Billie Holiday). I want white culture (whatever that is).

God save us from a homogeneous planet.

I love nigger pussy.

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 05:51 am: Edit

Blackjack,

Perhaps 'transparent' might be a better term than 'blind' but I'm not convinced. When teaching a class of 30 kids day in day out you really do not notice skin colour. Society makes too much of our differences and this is the root cause of the problem. The colour of a person's skin is not the same as a person's culture. There is no such thing as a 'black' culture or a 'white' culture. Is a 'white' English child closer in culture to a 'white' refugee child from the Balkans than he/she is to a 'black' English child? Of course not. Cultural and religious differences are important, skin-colour differences are not. Respecting cultural differences does not mean giving specific rights to certain cultural groups and denying these rights to other cultural groups. When we accept this we have given up on creating an equal, inclusive society.

"I do think that any damage done by some women's prejudices against men is minor compared to the damage done by some men's prejudices against women, especially outside the developed West".

I don't disagree with you, but this still does not make prejudice acceptable. When we accept that prejudice from one group towards another is acceptable, then the scenario changes from beng not about attempting to achieve equality but about attempting to achieve dominance.

"You treat the illness. If women, specifically, are being denied their rights, you have to focus on those rights which are being denied to them, just as you would focus on the organ that was diseased."

I agree with you, and I support the aims of feminism. But this means aiming to attain equal rights and not specific rights for women.

"You get a lot of people who say: "why isn't there a White History Month?" It's the same reason you don't take medicine for something that isn't sick."

Racism is an attitude that exists. Racism and prejudice is a 'disease' that affects all of society. If by attempting to treat the symptoms of this disease you in effect further entrench prejudiced attitudes, then you are making the 'disease' worse and not better. Such attempts increase the 'us and them' attitudes that exist can have the effect of driving 'communities' further apart. Instead of thinking 'us and them' we should be thinking 'we'.

As to the 'Black History month' example, instead of thinking in terms of 'Black History' or 'White History', we should be thinking in terms of teaching 'Our History'. Until we begin to think of ourselves as one we will not erase prejudice. Any efforts that further these percieved differences are counter-productive. All cultures (without exception) need to be treated with equal respect and if we teach children that certain cultures are more deserving than others then we are instilling them with prejudice and resentment.

Prejudice is prejudice regardless of where it comes from. No prejudice is acceptable under any circumstances and no one group should have differing rights from another.

Hobgoblin

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 05:12 am: Edit

Zack,

You are correct the quote wasn't from you it was from Mr Rabbit. You have my apologies. I suppose my post should have been addressed to Mr Rabbit and not yourself.

Hobgoblin

By Bjacques on Saturday, May 19, 2001 - 01:54 am: Edit

I never said PC didn't exist. It's just that there was an organized attempt, funded by a few meddlesome jerks like Richard Scaife, to present it as the greatest threat to western civilization since those pesky Saracens won the Holy Land. Since history ended in 1989 or so, according to Fukuyama, it would have been a shame for it to have ended on a sour note. "Yay! Capitalism won! Aww! We can't tell nigger jokes anymore!"

I don't know what kind of syrup they have here (NL). I think they import Canadian maple syrup. It's hard to say, since I rarely eat pancakes. I think the local stuff is closer to molasses, which isn't bad either. But Dutch tastes can be hard to explain. For instance, they produce a lot of butter, but all you can get in restaurants is margarine.

Hmmm...absinthe syrup...

By _Blackjack on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Kevin, did you go to Hampshire by any chance? The keywords "overpriced" "Massachusetts" and "political correctness" all seem to match.

Anyway, I haven't been on a college campus in 5 years, so I can't be sure how things are now, but I was at Sarah Lawrence (Hampshire's main rival for the most overpriced, least useful degree) when the PC thing was getting the most media attention. And, yes, it was there, but it was not that bad. There were a lot of spoiled rich kids with very thin skins in the student body, but none of it seemed to really affect the academic discourse. The FIRST thing my freshman class did was attend a seminar discussing political correctness, speech codes, and that kind of thing. It wasn't "sensitivity training." It was a critical discussion, and nobody condemned me for speaking up against the idea of speech codes.

For the record, the "speech code" at SLC was actually a prohibition against discriminatory harassment, which was just an extension of an overall ban on harassing speech. It wasn't that you weren't allowed to speak out against any group or position you wished to. It was just that you were not allowed to make verbal direct attacks toward other students, be it because of their race, gender, whatever, or simply because you didn't like them. It's was OK to say "I hate Jews." It was even OK to say "I hate So-and-so because he's a Jew." What you weren't allowed to do was get in So-and-so's face and say "I hate you, you fucking Jew." This was an OLD policy, and I suspect one found at most schools long before anyone ever used the phrase "PC." It's not about preventing political expression. It's about maintaining a civil atmosphere.

Trust me, I pushed the limits. I was notorious for my desire to take anybody who took themselves to seriously down a notch. Many of the scenes in the movie PCU could have been stolen directly from my experience. In a particular situation, I had put up some satirical posters which some students (rightly) felt were mocking their beliefs. They complained and tried to get me disciplined. The administration was very sensitive to their feelings, and went out of their way to make sure there was open dialog and all that crap, but had to tell them flatly that the ONLY thing I had done against the rules was fail to get approval from Buildings and Grounds, since they placed a limit on the number of posters a group or individual could put up at a time, for cleanup and appearance reasons. I got B&G to sign off, and that was that.

I was also once accused (probably rightly) of verbal harassment of a non-political kind, but nothing became of it because I had been careful to make my threat both vague and non-specific. Something to the effect of "Effeminate New York pseudo-intellectuals are going to be the first up against the wall, come the revolution!" In my defense, he was dating a good friend of mine and treating her like shit. I'd have poked him in the snoot if he hadn't been the kind of nancy-boy who'd call his lawyer instead of defend himself.

None of the faculty I encountered seemed in the least intimidated by the small but loud PC posse. Some of the professors I was close to would express public disdain and display great glee in busting apart the delusions of the uptight.

There was discussion and dissension on campus. There was even an Objectivist society. Our (awful) school newspaper didn't shy away from printing the head Randroids diatribes about what a bunch of irrational twits there were on campus and how we should be more selfish. (I always figured a rational, selfish person would be better off encouraging other people NOT to be selfish, so they'd be easier to fleece...) There were even a gallant cadre of Discordians who took up the mantle keeping it surreal and mocking the pompous after I left. They had a sponsor and got funding and everything.

There were, of course, occasions when it was just easier to let them have their way, but it wasn't because we were intimidated so much as resigned. Like the time the formed a picket line in front of the main cafeteria to protest the Rodney King verdict. You were allowed to eat in the SMALL cafeteria, just not the main one. They lied that the leftover food was going to the homeless, but it was actually, like always, getting taken home by the cafeteria staff. That day, the ice cream cart (which was donated by alumn Yoko Ono, according to campus lore) was stocked with ice cram bars! All for me!

Anyway, when I started leaning out the window trying to lure people in with ice cream, and pointing out that if Rodney was here, he'd want some ice cream, the picketers started to videotape me. I guess I was going to beat somebody up with a Fudgicle...

However, the next year, when some students built a shanty town and threw a hunger strike because a black teacher (who hadn't been publishing and had a better offer somewhere else anyway) was denied tenure, most of the class just laughed. Especially since the protesters were still drinking fruit juice. And one of them ended up in the hospital after only 11 hours. Even the administration stopped coddling them at that point. They met with the students, but let them know in no uncertain terms that students did NOT have the experience to decide who should get tenure. That's why they're students...

There were some fuck-ups, the most notable being John Bosky (son of Ivan) who was charged with discriminator harassment after he laughed in response to a rather vicious homophobic slur made by his roomate (who was also charged) on another student. I don't think laughing should be punishable, especially since it is largely involuntary. However, his only punishment was to read a book on homophobia and write an essay on why what he did could have hurt someone's feelings. On the other hand, a guy who tried to rape several students, including a friend of mine, got off with just an essay for punishment too, since it was his word against theirs and, because he was a scrawny pip-squeak, all the girls had successful fought him off. Not exactly the outcome you'd expect if there were really PC thought police.

That guy narrowly escaped getting knocked out and having "rapist" tattooed on his forehead in red, BTW, mostly because I didn't have the money to buy a train ticket for my friend with the tattoo gun.

So, to make a long story even longer, in my particularly anecdotal experience, political correctness did not significantly interfere with the level of academic discourse at Sarah Lawrence when I was there. They made the place a lot more absurd, but certainly not hostile.

Man, I'm getting really wordy...maybe I should ease back my dosage...

By Head_Prosthesis on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Not that Log Cabin shit my man! I'm talking 100 PERCENT GRADE A VERMONT!!! Canadian will do just fine also.

As for corn syrup, I've been known to take a glug or two from a jar of GOLDEN EAGLE Table Syrup. It makes every table a morning delight.

By Anatomist1 on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Head,

I'm skeptical. Do you mean real maple syrup, or commercial syrup that 95-98% corn syrup with a trace of real maple?

K.

By Head_Prosthesis on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 08:28 pm: Edit

"it's like pouring maple syrup on dogshit and pretending it's a pancake breakfast."

Did I ever tell you folks how much I love maple syrup? Hell, I drink it straight out the bottle.
Some day I'm going to make this Maple Liquor I keep reading recipes about...

By Heiko on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Kevin,

you are right, I also don't like PC "word games" too much. But maybe this is just the way the décadence goes. It changes simple expressions into something very complicated, look f.e. at Japanese formalities (which derive from a long feudalistic tradition).
In German, the word for 'woman' is 'Frau'. Only a few hundred years ago, the term 'Weib' was used for 'woman', today this is an insult. 'Frau' was at that time the expression for a woman of noble birth.
You better don't call a young woman "Fräulein" today, it's kind of insulting - in the 60s that was a standard term, and back in the middle ages it meant "young unmarried lady who is of noble birth".

Do you call soldiers "freaks" today? Well, you better don't... but in old anglo-saxon, "freka" meant nothing else but soldier.

Maybe there's just the normal changes going on today, same as ever - but who knows? In a few hundred years somebody can tell (well, IF somebody is still alive in a few hundred years...)

By Anatomist1 on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 06:20 pm: Edit

You guys that believe PC is dead, or never was anything but baseless right-wing agitprop are just as full of shit as the radio guys who'll have us believe it's the end of all personal freedom. It's real and it's alive, especially on university campuses. It isn't exactly turning the country socialist, but, along with bureacatese, business-speak and legalese, it's turning the American English language to mush. I won't start listing examples, as everyone knows plenty of them. I'm talking about calculated attempts to enforce the use bland, inoffensive, or merely incomprehensible words to substitute for evocative old words with a history behind them. The ridiculous assumption underlying it all is that forcing people to use certain words and phrases to express thoughts and feelings will change the thoughts and feelings themselves. It's inherently wrongheaded. Putting a happy liguistic veneer over a messy and unpleasant reality makes real change harder via increased confusion and obfuscation... it's like pouring maple syrup on dogshit and pretending it's a pancake breakfast.

Resist! We need more people like Marc, who use real words that kick you in the gut.

K.

By Marc on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:35 pm: Edit

I have found that in my business (nightclubs) women managers will often not hire attractive women because of jealousy and competiveness.
Put a middle-aged woman in charge of hiring female waiters and bartenders and you're in trouble. You'll end up
with a staff of homely broads. I'm sorry if that sounds insensitive, but that's the way it is. Many older women managers resent being surrounded by young attractive women. Of course, there are exceptions.

By Heiko on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 05:22 pm: Edit

Melinelly and Blackjack,

as a white male, you don't even have to be prejudiced to have some advantages. There are still enough others whose prejudices form silent underlying structures in society that makes it easier for white males. To change this, all the others will have to give up their prejudices, too. One example:
if there was a female canditate for President of the US in the next election, and supposed there was no difference between her and her male competitor (same abilities, almost same politics). I think there might be more MEN voting for her than women. There are so many women who wouldn't vote for a female canditate because either they were still prejudiced and thought a woman "can't do that", or they were jealous and wouldn't want "that bitch to become president".

I've seen that a few times in smaller groups. Men just support each other, the women can be more prejudiced of EACH OTHER and in the end vote for a man.
I don't say that this could never change, it is just my personal experience

By Heiko on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 04:54 pm: Edit

"context is everything. Absolutely everything."
---------------------------
"It's not what you do is
how you do it
It's not what you say
but how you say it
You going be shot with shit
Go down In It
What a joy to hear the
utterance from a Rasta"
-Black Uhuru - 'Utterance'

By Melinelly on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 04:39 pm: Edit

amen, blackjack =)

thank you for putting into words what's in my head that i haven't had time or energy to unjumble and put into words for a post here.

particularly your final bit:

"And while straight white men are not the only ones (by a long shot) guilty of prejudice, those among them who are prejudiced are (in our culture) the ones is the best position to IMPOSE their prejudices on others."

By Alphasoixante on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Ariadne, I love you.

Dionysus.

By _Blackjack on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:52 pm: Edit


Quote:

We need to treat and respect all peoples as the same, we need to become 'blind' to colour (and people who say this isn't possible are talking nonsense. I work in a State school which is 40% Indian-Asian, 30% Black, 30% White. 'Colour-blindness' is not only possible, it is essential).



I don't think "blind" is the right word. Race and ethnicity and such are very important parts of the identity of many people. To be "blind" to these things would be to ignore that. It would mean that you wouldn't pause before, say, serving a steak to a Hindu. We're all the same, right? I think "transparent" would be a better word. We need to be aware of our differences, but understand that we should all be treated with equal resect. The "color-blind" thing tends to make people avoid the subject of race altogether, which breeds ignorance. I know people who are afraid to describe someone as "black" when giving a physical description, because they've been taught that they aren't supposed to notice.


Quote:

The same also applies to a person's sex. Yes, most people agree with equal rights for women but the reason many men are opposed to so-called 'feminism' is that many so-called 'feminists' believe that basically 'all men are bastards' and the mere fact of being male means that you are responsible for the oppression of women and you should feel guilty for being male (and some poor sods actually do feel guilty).



I've already said my piece on who I think the "real feminists" are, so I'll just point out that I have been scolded on several occasions by a former NOW president because _I_ was doing to much man bashing.

I do think that any damage done by some women's prejudices against men is minor compared to the damage done by some men's prejudices against women, especially outside the developed West.


Quote:

I get sick of all the crap about 'women's rights', 'black rights' etc as if these groups are entitled to different rights from others. We should drop all this 'minority group rights' shit and speak only of 'Human Rights' that apply to all people regardless of skin color, sex, or any other factor.



Of course, you're correct, but the reason these groups single themselves out is because their rights have specifically been denied them over history. You treat the illness. If women, specifically, are being denied their rights, you have to focus on those rights which are being denied to them, just as you would focus on the organ that was diseased. You get a lot of people who say: "why isn't there a White History Month?" It's the same reason you don't take medicine for something that isn't sick.

There are people who get so focussed on the details that they lose sight of the big picture. There are people who forget that the point of feminism is to benefit the whole of humanity, to bring us all to an equal footing. There are also a lot of doctors who get so focussed on curing the one organ that they pay no attention to the health of the whole body. That's sloppy thinking, and I'm the first to condemn it. I don't think there is anything wrong with placing focus on the places where we need work.

There are a few rights, I'll point out, that women have that men don't, but that is because men don't have the organs involved...

And while straight white men are not the only ones (by a long shot) guilty of prejudice, those among them who are prejudiced are (in our culture) the ones is the best position to IMPOSE their prejudices on others.

By Pataphysician on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 02:33 pm: Edit

"PC is a smokescreen. It was started around 1983 by little rightwing shits at Dartmouth and Harvard..."

I'm glad you pointed that out. Many years ago I was asked to speak on a panel debating "PC and the Arts" so I thought I'd bone up on the origins of this purported phenomenon and found out exactly what you've briefly outlined and much more. Since then I pretty much ignore discussions of "PC". I don't see any sweeping PC phenomenon. It's mostly false or misinterpreted or insignificant anecdotes that people project their political biases onto.

As for naming, I think of this analogy: Sometimes my best friend and I might call each other "asshole" or "fucker" in private. But I wouldn't call him that in someone else's presence, because they would get the wrong impression. And I wouldn't call a stranger that unless I was looking for a fight. And I'd take offense if somebody else called my friend "asshole" or "fucker". Sure, there are no inherently bad words, but context is everything. Absolutely everything.

By Bjacques on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

Blackjack got it in one. That's why you can't say words like that. It's not your fault, but life is unfair that way. Until recently, life has been EXTREMELY unfair to gays, blacks and women. If you're white, life has been more than fair to your group, even if you didn't benefit directly. Take it up with a white alpha male if you have a beef.

If women really are more powerful than god, then you can see how much work it took to reduce them to the inoffensive, pious (yet sexy, but only to YOU), dependent (when not maternal) little things beloved of the Victorians/Taliban/Family Channel.

If it's any consolation, a gay white man can't say "nigga," and vice versa. Straight white guys still get the most flak, but minorities don't automatically cut each other slack.

In the Netherlands, some local Muslim imams pronounced homosexuality anathema but curable. Members of the government, who usually react to hate speech, stayed quiet in the name of multiculturalism. But the imams were full of shit.

PC is a smokescreen. It was started around 1983 by little rightwing shits at Dartmouth and Harvard with a bit of money behind them. One of the players was Dinesh D'Souza, a former Nixon aide. These people beat the drums incessantly, taking advantage of the Left's ordinary silliness (to which all humans are prey) and blowing it up into something sinister. They traded the same half-dozen Bad Examples until it seemed like every college was ruled by a PC cabal. Nope. But meanwhile colleges lost federal funding and had to whore for corporations. The PC menace is slain (FOR NOW!) but your football team has swooshes on their helmets and PepsiCo can tell your cafeteria what it can and can't serve.

That said, it sounds like Bettina took risks when nobody else did and generally dealt fairly. Either that or she managed to fool a very tiny market of people who all know each other. Even the "poor college student" is satisfied. And THAT said, now that she's got competition, she'd better find a way to cut costs and prices if she wants to stay in business. La Fee is US$50 per bottle (VAT incl.), though you have to buy it in Soho (London). On Old Compton Street.

By _Blackjack on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 01:12 pm: Edit

What it really gets down to is context. It isn't so much that X can say Y but Z can't. It's that there are certain circumstances, like two members of the same race-or-otherwise-marginalized-group conversing, where the INTENT behind words is clearly not aggressive or insulting. I use words like "fag" and "dyke" all the time among my friends, because a very large number of them are queer and they know I don't mean them negatively. However, I would be reluctant to use them when dealing with someone I didn't know, or in a situation, like on-line, where my intent might be less than clear. It's not because they are "bad" words. It's because there has been enough of a pattern of their use in a negative fashion that, devoid of proper context, someone might reasonable assume that I was using them thus. It's just a matter of accurately conveying my intent.

As far as "nigger" goes, well, I have no use for it. If anyone wants to try to reclaim it and make it less negative, that's their business, but I still won't use it. It has a very specific history and associations with a particularly brutal kind of dehumanization. I feel kinda the same way about the swastika. I know all about its real origins and long history, but whatever it USED to mean, it is now so inexorably associated with evil that I'm never going to warm up to it.

Hm...I seem to be somewhat contradicting the position I hold regarding the word "feminism." I'll have to think on that.

Honestly, I've never encountered a white person who routinely used the word "nigger"--outside of a rhetorical, fictional or ironic context--who wasn't a racist of some sort. I don't want to be misconstrued as a racist, so I avoid it.

I would not be altogether comfortable, for instance, using Marc's phrase "getting pussy," to mean "having sex with women." It implies not only ownership or possession, it implies that the focus is on the organ and not the woman as a whole. I have enough context for Marc and his style (including the excellent album of which I still owe him a review) to know he probably doesn't mean it his way, but the phrase HAS been used thus often enough that, void of context, one might assume he did.

Again, it's a matter of clarity. When my goal is the clear communication of ideas, I find it best to avoid language that might give an incorrect impression of my intentions or attitude, at least in environments where the context might not convey them. I don't apply this rule to artistic expression, however, where ambiguity is often a good thing. I think Marc is a bit more comfortable being somewhat ambiguous for the sake of aesthetics in his forum postings. That's probably why he's a rock star and I fix computers ;)

Man, this is too long. Did I mention my psychiatrist put me back on Dexedrine...?

By Artemis on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 11:07 am: Edit

There is no such thing as a bad word.

Anybody who says he can speak a certain word and I can't, is inviting me to a conversation in which he is healthy and I am crippled, by his desire. He can kiss my ass.

By Zack on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 10:59 am: Edit

LordHob,

"Zack,

As for the use of the term nigger/nigga "No way man- It is a term of solidarity from one black to another. A deadly insult from anyone else."

This attitude from certain black people is in itself racist. I put it in the same bag as similar attitudes to mixed relationships."

That solidarity quote did not come from me. If I posted, or believed that, it would contradict the rest of my post. Maybe you didn't read my post well enough (or maybe I don't understand yours), your reply to me has nothing to do with what I said. Just look at this:

"When my black friends are around "nigga" is thrown around more than the dominoes are. However, if someone (white or Black) says the "er" version, there is offense taken by almost all."

That was already saying that the term "nigga" crosses racial boundaries, can be used by white or black. And, the "er" word is bad no matter if it comes from a white or black.

By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 10:14 am: Edit

Zack,

As for the use of the term nigger/nigga "No way man- It is a term of solidarity from one black to another. A deadly insult from anyone else."

This attitude from certain black people is in itself racist. I put it in the same bag as similar attitudes to mixed relationships.

When any group create rules about what is acceptable from different ethnic groups then they are in effect giving justification to a type of apartheid, and are guilty of racism. We need to treat and respect all peoples as the same, we need to become 'blind' to colour (and people who say this isn't possible are talking nonsense. I work in a State school which is 40% Indian-Asian, 30% Black, 30% White. 'Colour-blindness' is not only possible, it is essential). When we justify the different treatment of a person on the basis of the colour of his/her skin then we are being racist (this applies whether we are black, white or any other colour).

The same also applies to a person's sex. Yes, most people agree with equal rights for women but the reason many men are opposed to so-called 'feminism' is that many so-called 'feminists' believe that basically 'all men are bastards' and the mere fact of being male means that you are responsible for the oppression of women and you should feel guilty for being male (and some poor sods actually do feel guilty).

On the other hand I know and respect many feminists who believe that men and women are equal and should be treated as such. They also believe that men and women should respect each other equally (not that men should respect and women have no need to respect men).

I get sick of all the crap about 'women's rights', 'black rights' etc as if these groups are entitled to different rights from others. We should drop all this 'minority group rights' shit and speak only of 'Human Rights' that apply to all people regardless of skin colour, sex, or any other factor. To accept that one particular group has rights individual to that group is plain prejudice, it is not only white heterosexual males that are guilty of prejudice.

Hogboblin

By Terminus on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:58 am: Edit

Msjekyll>

You don't like your pussy eaten or you don't like it eaten badly?

I have never received "the Costanza tap," so I don't know what bad is. Doing the alphabet is too cheesy--but I do have my own "system."

BTW, congrats on your upcoming marriage. Sorry you had to move to Arkansas. :(

By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:41 am: Edit

Verawench

"I still reserve the right to call myself whatever I please"

Of course you do, I never said you don't have such a right. But if you openly call yourself by a certain name then others too have the right to refer to you by this name. Although you are entitled to take offence if someone uses this term in a derogatory manner to you, as you clearly use this term in respect to yourself without derogatory connotations.

I am aware that 'Wench' isn't exclusively a medieval term (although it is derived from the Old English word Wencel. It however has never been an affectionate term and one of it's meanings (particularly during the periods you specify) is 'Prostitute', check the Oxford English Dictionary if you dispute this. Used in Tudor times 'Wench' was a derogatory term.

As for the 'middle classes' in Tudor times, we cannot simply use the terms 'upper', 'middle' and 'working' classes to describe the social system in Tudor times in the way the terms are generally understood in today's society. Capitalism was not in existence during Tudor times, Tudor times were in effect Feudal.

Hobgoblin

By Terminus on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 09:32 am: Edit

terminus,

"as for being chivalrous for Betty, I wonder what Marc's intentions were?"

You want to elaborate, you paranoid prick.



You don't buy from her, so you obviously aren't looking for a discount.

You implied that you are chivalrous to women so you can get pussy.

Figure it out.

By Pataphysician on Friday, May 18, 2001 - 07:25 am: Edit

"...Now all you men can relate to this
How sometimes you're supposed to go out of the house
And get something done
Like you're supposed to go to the store
And just go get a bottle of milk
Or just go to your job
And do it good and cone back home

But on the way, my God
There's a girl, and there's another girl, and there's another girl
And pretty soon you're surrounded
And your eyes are going one way
And your head is going another way
And your nose is going up
And your nose is going down
And you're thinking about that pussy
And it's become a real distraction
And you've gotta ask yourself

Can your pussy walk?
Can your pussy talk?
Can your pussy smile?
Can your pussy frown?
Can your pussy dance?
Can your pussy prance?
Can your pussy love?
Can your pussy shove..."

- Iggy Pop "Pussy Walk"

By _Blackjack on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 11:51 pm: Edit

I wish the edit feature worked. When I said "...the mainstream is scary enough to draw readers/viewers...." I meant "...the mainstream NOT is scary enough to draw readers/viewers."

By _Blackjack on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 11:47 pm: Edit


Quote:

but if you want to bemoan the dishonor of the feminist legacy look to those who propagate it: Faludi, the two women you mentioned, and a whole generation of entrenched academics...



Oh, I certainly don't dispute their responsibility, along with the media who would rather focus on the lunatic fringe, because the mainstream is scary enough to draw readers/viewers. What I dispute is that that kind of thinking is representative of the real core of the feminist movement, the majority of feminists, and what feminism has stood for, historically. It certainly isn't the position of groups like NOW.

I guess it's one of those "no true Scotsman" situations. I can say "they aren't real feminists" all I want, but ultimately, society defines the words by consensus. It cheeses me somewhat that the cranks get to steal a word that has meant so much to so many just because they are louder and get more attention. I think history should count for something.

I mean, the KKK can call itself a "pride group" all they want, but _I'm_ never going to buy it.

BTW, I've been in the belly of the PC beast (Sarah Lawrence College) and I know full well the kind of bullshit these people fling. They flung it at me more than once. But even at SLC, they were the minority, and were considered a detriment to the cause.

By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 09:27 pm: Edit

"Is it my imagination or do the guys in the absinthe forum flee when women enter it?"

Not enough time...
I'm playing Hazel again. Cleaning, washing, doin' dishes, pet the cat once in awhile... You gotta play with the cat!!!

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Hey Ariadne,

I used to go to an overpriced college in Massachussets, too. As you have pointed out, it's a great experience if for no other reason than accumulating first hand experience of the bizarre normality of a contemporary intellectual cabal. Also, the periodic influxes of acid and great pot were epiphanic... not really a word, you say? Is 'ha' a word? I still treasure my memories of climbing trees, primal screaming in the woods, frightening fellow students with my apparent insanity, and exploring the premise that clear thinking and excessive quantities of highly scrutinized writing are one and the same. Those were the days...

K.

By Msjekyll on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Thanks, Marc. Checked out your site, is that your works in the "peepshow" area? I am humbled. I must run out and update mine, well who has time.

On another note, I must just be too young to get this feminism crap. If I do the same job as a man, pay me the same. If you open my door for me, I'll be thankful, if you don't, I'll think nothing of it. Get down on your knees and worship me if I go through labor for you. If you get up in the middle of the night to investigate that funny noise in the dark and save me from a burgler I'll get down on my knees and kiss... well I'll leave it unsaid. It all evens out, don't you think?

Geez, and to think when I'm sober I just lurk here....

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 09:16 pm: Edit

ariadnae,

please keep posting. I dig your clarity.


Is it my imagination or do the guys in the absinthe forum flee when women enter it?
Its seems odd that a website designed by a woman devoted to a beverage
with a feminine nickname, The Green Fairy, and that is associated with art and intellectualism, attracts predominantly men, men who seem more interested in the science of the beverage than the
magic. We get into heated arguments over the price of the beverage, its legality, who's ripping us off etc. but very little discussion is devoted to books, film, art, music, dreams, sex,
poetry etc. kallisti's design of the sight is so sexy and mystical, but the tone of discourse here is often the opposite. Most of the threads devoted to the arts die a quick death and, yet, we can go on for days about the price of La Bleue.

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 09:03 pm: Edit

right on webfly!

By Ariadnae on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Hooo Weee! The testosterone's a bit thick in here...

Just delurking for a bit to comment on some things I know more about than absinthe...

After spending three years in the bastion of modern academic feminism (Smith College) I can tell you that most of them do not care about straight women. And if you actually say you like men for more than sperm donors, better head for the hills, 'cause you may find yourself the object of a stoning of Biblical proportions. Frankly, it's not that these women are lesbians either. I know quite a few lesbians who have no problem with men. These other ascetics seem to be women who are afraid of sex, and who don't know what their physical "power" is. Seem to suffer from a terrible dualistic mind/body split that keeps them sucked up into their heads and out of touch with their physical beings. It's easy to do when you're a hard-core academic, but it's no excuse.

Personally, I like when a man gets the door for me, who asks me what I want for dinner, then places the order, who carries bags for me when I go to the grocery store. That doesn't mean I'm dumb. Oh, no, you're talking to a biblical scholar here...but after years of trying to have "equal" relationships with supposedly "feminist" men, and finding myself stuck with the fuzzy end of the lollipop(to quote Marilyn Monroe in "Some Like it Hot") something wasn't quite right. So, I re-evaluated, and things have been quite nice these days...

But not all men are the same..as are not all women. Most macho swaggerers don't cut it with me. Most pocket protector types, even if well groomed, don't cut it with me either. What's attractive is a degree of vulnerability. If a guy is not open to life, or to the experience of life, then he's not attractive. I can't offer him anything and he has nothing to offer me. If he's willing to sieze more in life than my breasts, then there's a possiblity of something developing.

As far as pussy eating goes, if you're not good, you will get the tap on the shoulder (ask George Costanza). No woman's going to suffer with some nerd who doesn't know what he's doing just to be polite.

Okay...I think that's it for the moment. Hope I added a little more estrogen to the pool...

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:54 pm: Edit

msjekyll,

dig your website. We have similar tastes in graphic art, like skulls emerging from smoke. You might want to check out my homepage.

Its a pleasure to have you join us. You rule.

By Webfly on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:53 pm: Edit

I'm a newcomer, and I don't give a shit what anyone thinks.

Whereas there are many Green Fairies in the world, there is but one
> Crystalline Enchantress - Betina's Swiss La Bleue #1!
>
> In short,this La Bleue's crisp clean taste and overall sensations are
> unsurpassed!
>
> Absolutely crystalline in the glass, when diluted, yes, it does cloud to a
> barely discernable bluish.
>
> The initial anisseed aroma is moderately alcoholic, losing the alcohol
> scent and blossoming to a fruity, rounded anise upon dilution.
>
> In flavor, it is so well balanced that the anisseed flavor is complimented
> rather than accented by a very suble complexity.
>
> This absinthe is like a beautiful woman who quietly becomes part of you. One is
> slowly, inexorably, almost without knowing - captivated through this
> absinthe's suble enchantment rather than through harsh or obvious
> expression of the power she possesses.

Since this thread is loosely about women, Betty and higher order concepts like fairness, I thought this review to be appropriate.

To other newcomers: You must seperate opinion and objectivity. It is my opinion as per the foregoing that Swiss the is about the best absinthe I've tried. Is it better than BEI's Jura? Pretty damn close, but after drinking more than I should have of both, the Swiss honestly seems more crisp. Is it worth the price difference? Is any La Bleue worth the price? If you tend to be obsessed with finding the best, maybe it is. That's up to you.

I agree with some of the other posts about availability. Rarity of this nature commands a high price.

Be objective, don't be afraid to state your opinions. I need information which I'll naively ask also, as I have time to spend on this forum.

Betty's OK. How the hell did this criticism become such an issue in the first place? Let's have some fun with what should be a pleasant diversion, not a life.

By Msjekyll on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:45 pm: Edit

"Don't tell me women have no power. "

I won't tell you that! Feminism-sheminism! Having a pussy rules, Yea God!

By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:30 pm: Edit

You're the King!

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 08:28 pm: Edit

Hey gang,

love me or hate me, at least I get the women to poke their heads in here.

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:49 pm: Edit

I have little sympathy for women who complain about being powerless. As long as they have pussies, they've got power.

I've spent the bulk of my adult life loving and trying to understand women and how to make them happy. I've read Andrea Dworkin, Greer, Paglia
and deBeauvoir. I have also read Anais Nin, Diane
DiPrima, Sylvia Plath, Anne Waldman, Patti Smith,
Djuna Barnes, Maya Deren... I am deeply interested in what women think. My closest friends have always been women. I have lived with women for the past 30 years. I've never been "single" for any long period of time. I am lost without women, I need women, and, therefore,
I fear them. I am overwhelmed by women, intoxicated by women, I have been crushed by women
and driven to the brink of suicide by women. I have given my body, my brain, my heart and my money to women. I was born under the sign of WOMAN. Please, don't tell me women have no power.
Women are more powerful than god. Woman gave birth to god. We are all born in GOD'S CUNT.

Don't tell me women have no power.
I went to Walmart today. The Vegas Walmart is filled with trailer trash of the female variety, tattooed, weather-leathered broads in tank-tops,
cigarette butt scarification etched in their scrawny arms. I saw women so fat they could barely walk. Women with so much cellulite that their stretch slacks looked like they were stuffed with golf balls. I saw women with beards,
no teeth and breasts that looked like Dali's melting clocks. And as gazed upon these wrecks of humanity, I could think of only one thing:PUSSY.

By Zack on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:39 pm: Edit

""What nonsense. If someone goes around referring to themself as a 'nigger' then they obviously don't see it as an abusive term. "

No way man- It is a term of solidarity from one black to another. A deadly insult from anyone else. I had a black friend and once, when a white guy called him that (the white guy did it in friendship, not understanding this) that's what he said. It is also very apparent in many a rap song."

The word used in rap songs and all throughout the culture is "nigga." It may have started out as bad enunciation of "nigger," but it has a whole different meaning now. When my black friends are around "nigga" is thrown around more than the dominoes are. However, if someone (white or Black) says the "er" version, there is offense taken by almost all. I have never heard "nigga" used as a bad word, nor have I ever heard the "er" word used in a good or friendly way (unless by some white guy's slip of the tongue).

By Verawench on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:24 pm: Edit

"It kinda saddens me that "feminism" has become such a dirty word, when most people actually agree with it's real principles"

I'm comforted by the truth that the journey is more important than the destination. It's the continuing evolution of feminism that's important - keeping discussions such as this one open.

Individual women can easily realize what is best and most important to them. Things get complicated when a single term - "feminism" - tries to encompass the alleged needs and wants of womanhood in general. To me "feminism" is akin to optimism: a state of mind that's unique to one person but infectious to others.

Vera

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:00 pm: Edit

terminus,

"as for being chivalrous for Betty, I wonder what Marc's intentions were?"

You want to elaborate, you paranoid prick.

By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 06:00 pm: Edit

Good. I was afraid my mother created that one herself.

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Well, I don't know enough details to wage an extensive condemnation of Steinem in particular, but if you want to bemoan the dishonor of the feminist legacy look to those who propagate it: Faludi, the two women you mentioned, and a whole generation of entrenched academics... not the people who point it out. When people hear about the campus-wide institution of dating contracts, anonymous accusation drop boxes, hysterical harassment of non-establishment feminists like Paglia, and the like, what are they supposed to think?

Hell, even the existence of 'Women's Studies' departments is an embarassment, not to mention 'Gay Studies'. Specific political agendas do not make valid academic departments. Until such departments are consolidated into sex or gender studies, and professorship is contingent on a broad knowledge of history, anthropology, art history, and hard-core human biology classes, they are their own worst enemies. Feminism, so called, made great strides for a while, then became an entrenched bureaucracy with an accepted dogma that usually champions authoritarian institutional intervention and blind idealism over self-reliance and common sense.

This "I can call myself 'cunt' but you better not even think of calling me that" business is a perfect example of an absurd stance become commonplace through pervasive academic propaganda. I don't care how many groups do it, or how many new assholes have been chewed for violating it, anyone who espouses it is unfairly irrational at best, and deliberately setting out bait to launch a righteous tirade on the hapless at worst.

Blackjack's pet peeve, meet the Wilbanks peeve herd. I usually keep barbed wahre 'round these thangs.

K.

By Msjekyll on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Found this on hunyock....

Hunky: Variants: Hunkie, Bohunk, Hunyock -- A disparaging name given to the arriving immigrants of Slavic and Hungarian descent; Probably derived from the earlier arrivals' abysmal ignorance of and contempt for the later arrivals in their corruption of 'Hungarian' to a term applied to all later emigrants. 'Mick' was reserved for the Irish. An interesting latter-day twist here was to see its further transformation to the 'Ebonic' Honky, applied to all white folks.
from-
http://users.erols.com/sfpayer/CoalR/commcoalr.htm

MsJ(ski)

By Mr_Rabbit on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:50 pm: Edit

http://www.latimes.com/business/20010517/t000041409.html

Very good article on online gender interaction, if any of you skirts, fuckos, pimps or hos are interested.

By Msjekyll on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:42 pm: Edit

"The fact is most women love having their pussy eaten, even if the eater isn't great at it. So long as the recipient comes one or two or three times, there is no such thing as a bad pussy eater ..."

'The white mouse will not explode...'
'Don't you believe it!'
http://www.tomandjerryonline.com/Tnj/sounds/believe.wav

By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Anyone ever hear the term Hunyock?

By _Blackjack on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 04:53 pm: Edit


Quote:

Like I also said, it's partly the triumph of anti-sex Gloria Steinem victim feminism



Don't lump Ms. Steinem in with self-loathing cranks like McKinnon and Dworkin. Gloria is a classy broad, I am told (my best friend is the daughter of former NOW resident Judy Goldsmith.) Real feminism is about achieving equal status for women in society. That's it. It isn't anti-sex or pro-censorship. If anything, it's PRO-sex, since it was the feminists who did all the work to get women the level of reproductive control they needed to be able to have sex on their own terms.

It kinda saddens me that "feminism" has become such a dirty word, when most people actually agree with it's real principles: that women deserve equal pay, equal say in their families, equal opportunity and equal representation. Nothing too radical about that, at least today. Our society has improved immensely as a result of the work done by the feminist movement, and I hate to see that legacy dishonored.

The Dworkins of the world are no more representative of feminism than, say, David Duke is representative of the Republican party.

Sorry. It's a personal peeve of mine. Carry on.

By Verawench on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Hobgoblin:

"Wench" isn't an exclusively medieval term. It carried over well into the early modern period and I pulled it from plays by Shakespeare, Beckett, and others where the word is used in various connotations. How I use it for my screen name is none of your business. Anatomist already justified me in its use.

As for middle class, what do you call the growing, well-off, non-noble merchant population in Tudor England? Martians?

I still reserve the right to call myself whatever I please, just as Marc has every right to boast about his tongue-related talents. I won't have anyone else flinging any one word labels at me because, unless they offer constructive criticism, I alone can decide what goes and what stays, positive or negative.

By Mr_Rabbit on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 03:48 pm: Edit

"What nonsense. If someone goes around referring to themself as a 'nigger' then they obviously don't see it as an abusive term. "

No way man- It is a term of solidarity from one black to another. A deadly insult from anyone else. I had a black friend and once, when a white guy called him that (the white guy did it in friendship, not understanding this) that's what he said. It is also very apparent in many a rap song.

I can call my friend a son-of-bitch with a smile. He will smile back. Doing it to a stranger is an insult. It's kinda like that, but with a racial group instead. You can see it in ethnic groups too, and even subcultural ones. If someone calls someone a redneck who doesn't happen to be one hisself, well, it could get ugly real fast like.

Broad, wench, chick, girl, skirt- these have all been used in a disrespectful, derogatory way many a time.

The tendency seems to be, if you happen to be female, to assume insult rather than another meaning.

It is very rare for that to be the case though- mostly, unless he is looking for a fight, a guy who thinks of women in a patronizing way keeps it under his hat, and shows his belief in subtler ways.

Maybe the women of the forum should start referring to the men with different words >:-)

As in 'I was out on a date with this spermbank the other day'... or 'Hey, fucko!'

By Terminus on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:47 pm: Edit

Marc acts like he invented pussy eating.

The fact is most women love having their pussy eaten, even if the eater isn't great at it. So long as the recipient comes one or two or three times, there is no such thing as a bad pussy eater (or bad pussy, for that matter).

The sad fact is that many men don't eat pussy. But they expect their dicks to be sucked. How unfair.

As for being chivalrous for Betty, I wonder what Marc's intentions were?

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:12 pm: Edit

"... allow me to make the "nigger" analogy once more: just because I call myself by one label, doesn't mean anyone else can."

What nonsense. If someone goes around referring to themself as a 'nigger' then they obviously don't see it as an abusive term. If someone uses a particular label to refer to themself then they have no right to brand others as abusive if they use the same term. Personally I take offence if someone refers to me as a 'Paddy', a 'Mick', a 'Bogtrotter' or a 'thick Irish bastard', but then I don't call myself by these names.

As for the term 'wench' "as simply a way to address a young girl of lower to middle class, often as a term of affection". There was no such thing as 'middle classes' in Medieval times. I'm sure those pissed-up noblemen in Mead-halls didn't use the term respectfully and with affection when having their cups filled with more booze by servant-girls. Not exactly very PC, unless you want to engage in ludicrous historical revisionism.

Hobgoblin

By Heiko on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 01:04 pm: Edit

"[...] it's partly the triumph of anti-sex Gloria Steinem victim feminism [...]".

And you know what? The results of that seem to be even worse in Germany than in the US (it's at least my impression as far as I could compare). In my generation, we boys were raised to some conscience that we must feel so ultra bad about the fact that we want sex, it was kind of horrible discrimination. Girls were manipulated so far to feel bad if they had sex, because then they had given in to "male oppression".

I recently heard one of those ancient ultra-feminists babbling nonsense in a tv show. She still thinks if men weren't so overly irresponsible and evil, if they just wanted to be "good", we could easily abolish all whorehouses. I would really like to give someone like her a big dose of testosterone intravenously, so she might maybe understand a little what she's talking about.

Hard times... but it's getting better...

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 12:46 pm: Edit

V,

To clarify. As far as who is allowed to call whom what, I was just reporting how people tend to think. Personally, I think calling yourself a name and prohibiting particular others or whole categories of others from doing the same is pretty lame. Pick one. That kind of self-annointed elitist double-standard may be an effective way of confusing 20 year old boys and bending them to your will, but that doesn't make it a good thing. Don't come back here in ten years complaining that you can't find a man with a spine...

K.

By Verawench on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 12:09 pm: Edit

The word "wench" doesn't necessarily connote a female servant. More often than not it was simply a way to address a young girl of lower to middle class, often as a term of affection.

Also, to reinforce what anatomist said, allow me to make the "nigger" analogy once more: just because I call myself by one label, doesn't mean anyone else can.

I read Marc's confessions. You can almost hear Henry Miller hollering a Homeresque "Doh!" from his grave.

And amen to Morrigan - I know Marc's intentions aren't malevolent. But since I have my convictions, I couldn't just make like some giggling bimbo and ignore what's being said.

Vera

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 10:55 am: Edit

your loss.

By Morriganlefey on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 10:38 am: Edit

This thread seems to have become the "God's Cunt" thread all over again (and we all know how much I LOVED that one). I've been a silent observer lately, and have come to the conclusion that Marc feels about words like "cunt", "broad" and "pussy" (there, I said 'em - proud?) as most of the rest of us do about words of reverence and power like "feminist". I might not agree with his method of delivery, but I (grudgingly) conclude that he means well. It's all just semantics.

Still - I must agree with Vera that, while I also am not obsessed with PC-ness, some posts here lack respect for the 'fair sex'. And that's not just because she & I are "the women of this forum" (along with Kallisti), but because we're the women of this forum who know ourselves & know what we want. And the "Rico Suave hipster swagger and rock and roll jive talk" of a self-proclaimed master "in the fine art of eating pussy" just ain't it. I must say that if a stranger came up to ME in a bar and said he wanted to "eat your pussy like its never been eaten before" I'd roll my eyes, resist the urge to slap him, and walk away.

- M

By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 07:13 am: Edit

Lick lick the Green Fairy
When the cow is in the Dairy
Lips are singing like a Canary
Lick Lick the Green Fairy

By Wolfgang on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 06:53 am: Edit

Yes, Marc is quite a character ! He reminds me of one of my good friend (who also call himself a master pussy eater ;-)). I really believe that people who speak openly like him are usually better man than those who just shut up (and usually secretly jerk off behind their computer, thinking about their wife when looking at some porn when the said wife is just bored to death, dreaming of a good licking).

I also think it's possible to be an idealist (like Anatomist seems to be) and dutifully worship the pussy of this said responsive human soul ...

And by the way, did anybody noticed the aphrodisiac effect of absinthe ? (ok ok I had to turn the discussion to the green fairy ;-)).

Wolf

lick, lick the green fairy!

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 06:51 am: Edit

Marc,

I warned you. College-educated women in their 20's and early 30's aren't going for that stuff... except for the orange-skinned ones. Like I also said, it's partly the triumph of anti-sex Gloria Steinem victim feminism, and they should probably lighten up a little. Like in this case. I know you're not the asshole Vera thinks you are.

Also, on the wench/broad issue, you need to understand the contemporary paradigm as far as these types of names go. Wench is OK for Vera because she's calling herself wench. Despite its negative original meaning, this is the postmodern age: a signifier can be removed from a previously oppressive context and reinvested with meaning as a badge of empowerment. If you call her wench, it's a whole different ballgame... unless you have been given implicit or explicit permission to join in. Same goes for 'nigger'. Sound like a load of horseshit? Welcome to the 21st century.

K.

By Malhomme on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 06:28 am: Edit

Vera,
Marc's one of the good guys. A little course, loves the power of shocking squares, perhaps a little adolescent, but an upright and rightous guy all the same. I can't imagine Marc having any hateful motives toward women. Read the body of work of another New Yorker, Henry Miller. In fact, you should ask my fiancee what I quoted to her from Miller the first time/moment we met. Are you coming on the 27th, we'd love to have some new blood?

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 03:28 am: Edit

vera,

"getting pussy is easy".

Maybe for you.
As for me, I've always had to work hard to get pussy. My whole life's ambition has been to get pussy. I started playing rock music to get pussy.
I've spent thousands of dollars on cool clothing to get pussy. I've spent money on health club memberships in order to look good so that I might get pussy. I read books to get pussy (women like to fuck smart men). I've become a master in the art of eating pussy in order to get pussy and keep it. Most men will swim up a river of snot if there's some pussy at the other end. You want respect, you got it. I want to eat your pussy.

I met my wife in my bar. It was closing time. She was on her way out the door. I asked her where she was going. She said home. I said why don't you come home with me. She said why. I said because I'll eat your pussy like its never been eaten before. She said ok. I did the deed. We've been together ever since. Do not underestimate the power of pussy and the men who eat it.

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:55 am: Edit

Vera you call yourself a wench. I'm perplexed.
The word "wench" means a FEMALE SERVENT. And you
have a problem with "broad"? Honey, get your shit together.

By the way, is that your picture on your profile page. Man, you are one hot lookin' wench...er, I mean broad.


anatomist,

I think you may have found your soulmate.

By Marc on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 02:50 am: Edit

Vera,

I've been with my wife for twelve years. The term "broad" connotes, to me, a woman with a take-no-shit attitude. I'd go so far as to call you a broad. The word really originated in hard-boiled detective fiction. Broads are self-sufficient and powerful women. I see no connection between the words "broad" and "nigger". As a black man, I hate the word "nigger".
As far as pussy goes, I see nothing wrong with the word. In fact, I adore it.

Vera, check out my "confessions" thread. You'll fucking hate it.

By Verawench on Thursday, May 17, 2001 - 01:49 am: Edit

Anatomist, thanks. Marc, does your wife know you talk about women this way? If so, she's not the wonder woman you describe. Especially since you like being "protector and provider".

Also, take note that "getting pussy" is easy. Getting - and keeping - the woman that comes with it is another matter.

Anyway, have some fucking respect and don't refer to women as "pussies" or "broads". I happen to be neither, in my perception. I'm not obsessed with PC but any black people on this board would probably not appreciate being called "niggers". Go ahead, flame me, but at least I said something.

Anyway, being in a gender minority on this forum, I've gotten a rather warm welcome and for that I thank everyone, male and female.

ta,
Vera

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:05 pm: Edit

anatomist,

if you really knew me you'd know that I'm the furthest thing from a Rico Sauve. My Sinatra boast was my attempt at self-parody. I've managed
to meet and fuck cool women primarily because they
dig my gift of gab. I certainly never had the money or material wealth to impress them. I've attracted intelligent women, but not creative ones. A truly creative broad would probably see thru my faux intellectualism. I've been with alot of beautiful bluebloods who were drawn to my hipster swagger and rock and roll jive talk. Those girls were basically slumming. When it came down to it, they were destined for the tennis and Rolex crowd. I would become a memory from the days when they "hung-out downtown with the rockers, painters, poets and losers".

By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:00 pm: Edit

Funny how life is? I just got off the phone with a friend and he was just talking about an "orange-skinned" girl.

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Marc,

Well, I guess it's just that guy-talk thing, but when you talk about using some Suave thing to get more pussy than Sinatra, it sounds like deception in the name of banging a lot of chicks. If said chicks were endowed with sufficient corpus mente, it stands to reason they wouldn't be so easily hoodwinked into being banged. Or, they were just as interested in banging you for reasons unrelated to the Suave thing, in which case it was irrelevant.

I'm sure part of it has to do with having been too long in Madison. There's a whole Ms. magazine pervasive PC thing here that lays a serious guilt trip on men for doing anything vaguely testosterone related. Then there's a whole sect of orange-skinned foofed-out chicks that don't buy into it on account of being oblivious to anything of the sort. Also, truth be told, I'm a huge snob and I think most people are idiots... and incompetent too. Then there's that 'wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me as a member' trip, which I'm about halfway ensconsced in. AND... what was I talking about, again? I've passed up many opportunities at 'pussy', because I really don't want to bang some chick because she saw me hanging around backstage with the bassist holding hundreds of dollars worth of camera equipment, or because I happen to be the nearest male in the midst of a drunken haze, or because I fit some unthinking profile, or know how to put on the moves. I want to look into a woman's eyes and see something besides avarice, vapidity, or just plain empty space. I want to see a responsive human soul that's looking back. These days I suppose it makes me beyond old fashioned, but I don't give a fuck. I don't do anything that doesn't feel completely honest and right to me, and I live almost completely free of regrettable decisions. I often regret the shallowness, dishonesty, and cowardice of others, however. I try hard to look outside myself, but mostly I just see zombies.

K.

By Heiko on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Sorry guys, I gotta do it again, speak, although I can't...but somehow I understand what both of you mean, Kevin and Marc.
Kevin you mean not pretending to be the all-controlling protector will bring you the love of some intelligent girl, maybe. But Marc, I guess you're right as well - to serve and protect with dignity will make you the king.
An intellingent goddess wants to have her truly loyal knight to serve her right.

Oh damn I'm talking weird, romantic stuff, just forget it. Or maybe think about it. That's what I'm gonna do when I will read this for the first time tomorrow ;-)

By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:40 pm: Edit

The fine art of eating pussy. You make me smile...

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:35 pm: Edit

anatomist,

my wife, Jennifer, is no idiot. The mother of my daughter, Lola, is a teacher. Most of the women in my life have been strong, independent and beautiful women. They've been free spirits, but I have found that deep down they like some of the old-fashioned ways. Even Patti Smith got married, had children and moved to the suburbs. Its a question of balance. I don't oppress women, I love them, fear them and profoundly respect them. All of the women I've been close to, I'm still close to. And most of my longterm lovers know each other and are friends. Pauline, Lola, Katrina, Jennifer and Janet spend time together. They all helped raise my daughter, Ama. My relationship with women has become healthier over the years. When I was a younger man, particularly
during my 20s, I was a real jerk in my relations
with women. As I've grown older, I've learned
how to be less selfish, more supportive and more skilled in the fine art of eating pussy. And that
is key. You gots to leave em satisfied.

I'm surprised that you would think I'd be involved with idiots. What gives? Did my post questioning your sincerity piss you off?
Why the nasty vibe?

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:33 pm: Edit

anatomist,

my wife, Jennifer, is no idiot. The mother of my daughter, Lola, is a teacher. Most of the women in my life have been strong, independent and beautiful women. They've been free spirits, but I have found that deep down they like some of the old-fashioned ways. Even Patti Smith got married, had children and moved to the suburbs. Its a question of balance. I don't oppress women, I love them, fear them and profoundly respect them. All of the women I've been close to, I'm still close to you. And most of my longterm lovers know each other and are friends. Pauline, Lola, Katrina, Jennifer and Janet spend time together. They all helped raise my daughter, Ama. My relationship with women has become healthier over the years. When I was a younger man, particularly
during my 20s, I was a real jerk in my relations
with women. As I've grown older, I've learned
how to be less selfish, more supportive and more skilled in the fine art of eating pussy. And that
is key. You gots to leave em satisfied.

I'm surprised that you would think I'd be involved with idiots. What gives? Did my post questioning your sincerity piss you off?
Why the nasty vibe?

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Marc,

Not surprising, but definitely depressing. My problem is that I'm looking for a woman who isn't an idiot.

K.

By Heiko on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:46 pm: Edit

It's 4.40 in the morning, I just came home - just wanted you to know that I'm not going to say anything:
"


"

P.S.: Don has announced the end of sillyness with some information.

By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:29 pm: Edit

And Terminus... I'm ashamed. I really am.

By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Scooby pay what ever you can just don't even think about the Czech Absinthes. My rump still hurts...

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:24 pm: Edit

anatomist,

the Rico Sauve shit DOES work for me. I like being a protector and provider. Its gotten me more pussy than Frank Sinatra.

By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:24 pm: Edit

"Where I come from, we know how to treat the ladies." -Marc

"In today's world, real women don't wither at criticism, or rely on the services of chivalrous interlopers"
-Anatomist

"Where I come from they do!" -Head_Prosthesis

You go put up a table at the "Gibraltor Trade Center" and give a Downriver girl a good price on some fake FuBu gear because she's "real purtty" and you'll see what I mean.

By the way The Gibraltor Trade Center resides in Taylor and Mount Clemens and hasn't been in Gibraltor for about 20 years... I think it was only there for 2.

By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 05:26 pm: Edit

"When I first came to the forum it was like what (i think) Head said in an earlier post, to gain some understanding and learn from others experiences. "

Nope I never said anything like that. I rarely say anything quotable... Laughable but not quotable.

By Scoobydoo on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 05:15 pm: Edit

Hey hey Hey!
Ok,
Just a little clarification from the "poor college boy." Yes, I did order a bottle of Deva 70% from Betina; and yes it was pretty expensive for my cash sources; and yes I was scared of customs getting involved and getting me in trouble. In my emails to various people in the forum I never really indicated that I had been "ripped off" by Betina, though I am sure that's how many people took it. Basically, I just was asking if there was a cheaper way to get absinthe and that was when I realized I could have gotten the bottles for cheaper (so I guess in essence, that is the definition of being ripped off). However, I must say that Betina was five stars in her packaging, her generosity, and her helpfulness. I understand she goes through a lot to get her bottles and when I emailed her and told her I made another shipment through spiritscorner, she maintained her decency and was as cordial as ever. So I spent a little too much on one bottle, I still got what I wanted. Hindsight is 20/20 and we all learn from our mistakes. If one day I feel the sudden urge to splurge and try the La Bleue, I will go to Betina because I know I will get a great product. However, that can only happen after this recent college grad gets a higher paying job :)AND when I finish applying to medical schools. Did you know it costs over $6,000 just to APPLY to medical school!?! Jeez! Basically, I just wanted to clarify a few things I had seen on the forum and say that I really think Betina is a nice gal; even though she charges a little extra for her bottles. We all have to start somewhere...I started with Betina.

I liked the forum better when we wrote poems and talked about our shits.

Still gotta luv everyone here though (except maybe anatomist1),

The Serpis Shits Guy

By Terminus on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 04:26 pm: Edit

OK, I just listened to one of your songs:

Never Want To See You Again

You said it before, the night in Seattle, when I introduced you to my, ping pong paddle

By Terminus on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Marc, I have a confession to make. I have never heard your music, so I don't know if it sucks ass.

It might kick ass. Anyway, I have no problem with Betty selling La Bleue or La Fee at whatever price. I am not her customer.

My problem is her exaggeration of the customs menace and her selling of Deva at a tremendous markup to someone new to absinthe.

By Terminus on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 04:03 pm: Edit

((If this is the case, then you mofos are a bunch
of drama-queening jerk-offs. Leave Betty alone. She's done nothing to you. Where I come from, we know how treat the ladies. I suspect its been awhile since you mofos have been in the presence of one.))

Gee, Marc, that was uncalled for.

Take this:

Your music sucks ass.



I ripped Betty for ripping off a poor college student. He bought Deva from her. What Betty did was evil.

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Marc,

I don't think I have a problem being sincere. In fact, by and large I would say I'm excessive sincere and overly honest, by today's standards. It has been my experience that most people are either apathetic or frightened by sincere and direct expression -- unless it comes packaged in a mediated cultural product. People want to keep it light. They want aloof irony, humor, banality... entertainment. I have found being sincere on the forum, in particular, to be a disappointing waste of time. Whereas I find goofing off to be amusing.

"Where I come from, we know how to treat the ladies."

...where I come from, most women would find that comment nauseatingly condescending. In today's world, real women don't wither at criticism, or rely on the services of chivalrous interlopers, especially in print (i.e., I don't think upper-body strength is at issue). If Betty is playing strange, psychotic head games as part of some profiteering scheme, I say stand back and let the fur fly. I'm not even a potential customer and I have no evidence one way or the other, so I don't really care. Maybe that Rico Suave schtick works for you, but from where I sit it's a little over-ripe.

K.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:58 am: Edit

"I told you before, using the Highlander metaphor, that I am not a practitioner. I'll tell it to you plainly this time: I do not make absinthe at home or anywhere else."

Artemis, sweet Goddess, protector of animals and mothers-to-be, could you please quote WHERE I said that you make absinthe at home?

I purposedly used the past tense, together with a German word. Whatever you or I did in our foolish youth, it's part of the past and happened in another country, anyway.

"I can do it, any reasonably intelligent person can do it. That's why I have no sympathy for people who come in here asking how to make absinthe"

Well, your intelligence surpasses your compassion. For me, years ago, making absinthe was really easy. My sailing buddies call me "MacGyver". A still was not that complicated. But for some people the whole concept is intimidating. Of course I won't give any advice on making a still, but I may point people to some source of advice.

"I know for sure you aren't going to bully, cajole, shame, or in any other way convince the people you accuse of wanting to be gods, to talk publicly about that subject."

I have the impression that you think that I'm here fishing for advice on how to make absinthe. If this is not what you think, I apologize. If this is what you think, a quick email to our common aquaintance Justin will quickly dispell that misconception. I'm not here looking for a guru, but to exchange information among peers. I even don't mind you, Ted and Don being "primus inter pares". As long as it is "inter pares". No patronizing allowed, as it should be.

"If you find it boring and stale, you have some choices:

a) Make some interesting posts to liven things up"

Judging from the response to my "Commercial vs Homemade" I think I'm doing just that.

Ps. Don't be so serious. You are Artemis, not Hera (though in your darkest moments you remind me of Hecate....)

By Wolfgang on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:23 am: Edit

> many "absinthe contacts (and boy am I cool)" in Europe as you, if not more, and I have _never_ left US borders.

I agree. No more than a month after I first began my research about absinthe on the web (and I had not tasted a single drop of the green fairy then), I found someone willing to distribute LA Bleu in Canada through me and I found that even without asking for it! Maybe the fact that I speak french helped a bit but anyway, that's just to say it's not so hard to find. (And for the record I said no because I do not have the time and the interest to do that and I prefer to keep it as a hobby).

Wolf.

By Mike on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:22 am: Edit

Hello everyone,
Just a qiuck note to say that I plan to continue to post, maybe not with the vigor that some in here have but I'll keep my 2 cents in.
When I first came to the forum it was like what (i think) Head said in an earlier post, to gain some understanding and learn from others experiences.
I'm still very interested in absinthe and don't foresee a change anytime soon.
To everone here, Thank you all. I've learned alot, but the main thing I've learned is that I still have alot to learn!
I'm anxious and ambitious about life and all it has to offer and absinthe only seems to make it more appealing.

thanks again
Mike

By Heiko on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:15 am: Edit

Justin,
at least we do not yet sing Arab songs in distorted 11KHz audio (like on my very favorite station TRT Türkye).

By Artemis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 10:01 am: Edit

"Artemis, that is a dangerous attitude. Did you have all the answers when you hausgemachted for the first time?"

I told you before, using the Highlander metaphor, that I am not a practitioner. I'll tell it to you plainly this time: I do not make absinthe at home or anywhere else. Yes, I know some answers. For the most part, I got them outside of this forum. If I can do it, any reasonably intelligent person can do it. That's why I have no sympathy for people who come in here asking how to make absinthe, whine when they don't get answers, and then accuse certain people of wanting to be worshipped, etc. Artemis the goddess wants to be worshipped. Artemis the absintheur doesn't give a shit.

"We want people to hausgemacht."

I have no problem with that. But I'm not going to tell them how to do it in this forum, and I have my reasons for that. Other people have their own reasons. I know for sure you aren't going to bully, cajole, shame, or in any other way convince the people you accuse of wanting to be gods, to talk publicly about that subject. I've been around here a long time. It's been tried (including by me, by the way, when I first came here). It doesn't work.

"If this is merely going to be: a) a place to worship Ted, Artemis and Don's knowledge, and b) a
place to endlessly compare Deva 50 to Serpis 70 to La Fee 3,1416, well, it'll be boring and stale in no time."

If you find it boring and stale, you have some choices:

a) Make some interesting posts to liven things up
b) Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

By Chrysippvs on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 09:51 am: Edit

"Certainly the mob is fickle, and moreover the mob is the law."

- Cicero

--"EVERY TIME someone posts something fine about Betina Elixirs..you ALL descend and devour. My customers CHOOSE ME FROM THE VENDORS...."

LOL....Betty you are too cute, that paranoid streak really suits you.

--5. ALL OF YOU: I request you attempt to Go find Oxygenee, La Fee, and Swiss La Bleues 1, 2, and, soon, 3, yourselves, instead of ridiculing my prices..go fly to Europe...."

Don't make it out to be that hard. Honestly, as everyone in the forum knows I have as many "absinthe contacts (and boy am I cool)" in Europe as you, if not more, and I have _never_ left US borders. Oxygenee, La Fee, La Bleue, La Blanc, La Verte, HD9, Vintage absinthe, and others can be had if one is willing to dig a bit and send a few e-mails. I don't even know French and I came up with all of these brands. So as for these claims, that is garbage. If you have to fly to Europe to get absinthe, then you are working to hard for something not really worth it. Holy Grail of absinthe...what a bunch of hogwash...

...I never get attacked...lol. That tells me on thing...that Betty doesn't read the forum...


--Customs

Of all the absinthe I have brought in my time I have never had a SINGLE bottle seized. The only realistic way to get bottles seized (of course this is not counting the chance of randsom S and S) is to be foolish enough to ship 10+ bottles. I can't express how naive that is, and if you get caught you were asking for it.

This forum is nice, but it is more and more like a soap opera..and not a good one like Dark Shadows, more like those Arabic ones. It is amazing how people take things so seriously in here. It is almost as pathetic as those Star Wars forums sometimes, and I am sure we don't want to become that..do we?

- J

By Wolfgang on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 09:40 am: Edit

Well, I think the point of this discussion was only to make sure every newbie on the board who come here and read about Betina's elixir knew that they can have their Spanish absinthe for a better price elsewhere. Beside that, nobody ever said that her La Bleu was such a bad deal. In fact, even if I personally can't afford a 300 Can $ bottle of La bleu, I'm pretty sure from the posts I have read here that she's selling one of the best.

I also find it difficult to understand what people mean by "exceptional customer service" described in a 3 pages post. I mean, what can be better than receiving your bottles well packed, in good condition and within less than a week (as is the case from SC) ? Then again, if you're ordering a product not available from SC, it's another story.

Anyway, I will now assume Mr Lars is not just a phony and I publicly offer him my apology for having been rude with him on his first post.

Wolf.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:51 am: Edit

"You don't like this forum, find another one. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

"As to the "inner circle", blah blah blah, that accusation gets made about every Internet forum I've ever experienced. The so called "inner circle" are the people with the thickest skin. They can dish it out, but they can also take it. Therefore they don't quit the field."

Artemis, that is a dangerous attitude. Did you have all the answers when you hausgemachted for the first time? I didn't. I did not know then about this forum, but if I had appealed here for help I would have been told: "If you have to ask, then you shouldn't do it!"

Wrong advice. We want people to hausgemacht. To make mistakes. To discover new things. To bring new perspectives.

TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO ABSINTHEUR HAS GONE BEFORE!!!

lol

If this is merely going to be: a) a place to worship Ted, Artemis and Don's knowledge, and b) a place to endlessly compare Deva 50 to Serpis 70 to La Fee 3,1416, well, it'll be boring and stale in no time.

Let's welcome new blood, newbie mistakes and all!

By Heiko on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 08:07 am: Edit

Marc,

I already had a bad conscience about my "what-if" and extensive "what-costs-what" comparing (in the "to buy or not to buy..." thread). That's why I thought you directed this at me. I usually don't behave like I went to business school.
Damn, I shouldn't say stuff like this - I'm sure there is someone on the forum who went to business school ;-) (this gag was stolen from futurama anyways...)

I'm pretty sure that the first time I was involved in a thread about Betina, I said that I was wondering why Kallisti's page and some people highly recommend her, but only mentioning her name caused some people (I really don't know anymore who it was) to ask me if I was stupid. I'm pretty sure I also stated that I consider it a fair deal if I know the price and can decide if I want to spend that much or not.

Betina,
I just recalled I wrote back at that time to tell you that the price for La Bleue is out of range for me, but the mail was returned "user unknown". I wanted to be polite - just for the record :-)

This time, I actually made some jokes about the post by larsbogart, I did not consider these to be hostile - I thought it was friendly irony. I actually believed you might have written it yourself, why not? I would do it.
My standpoint was that you are a businesswoman who knows what she does and who doesn't give a shit about some smartass like me making jokes about that post. Sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings with that!

I agree that fun is only fun if everybody who is involved can laugh about it.

By Artemis on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 07:04 am: Edit

FWIW, my response to Lars had nothing to do with buying or not buying from Betty - I merely thought his post was far too many words, pretty maudlin at that, about products that have been discussed to death here. And I warned him he was going to get flamed because people who come out of nowhere defending Betty when she hasn't been mentioned for a while always do get flamed.

I thank Betty for her detailed response - I was glad to see it. I think it's a far better path to take than complaining to Kallisti that people are flaming her.

I personally have no problem with Betty or her prices. You don't want to pay, don't buy.

As to Justin, he used to be attacked here on a very regular basis for his prices, for the fact he dared to sell absinthe at all, for the alleged fact he misrepresented said absinthe, for the stuff he dared to sell on Ebay, for his writing style, for merely existing. It is complete bullshit that Justin was ever given a pass by the forum as a whole.

As to the way people get treated here - YAWN!! You don't like Betty's prices, don't buy. You don't like this forum, find another one. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

As to the "inner circle", blah blah blah, that accusation gets made about every Internet forum I've ever experienced. The so called "inner circle" are the people with the thickest skin. They can dish it out, but they can also take it. Therefore they don't quit the field.

By Terminus on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 06:41 am: Edit

Marc> I received an e-mail from a newbie poster (Scoobydoo--the Serpis shits guy) compaining that he ordered his first bottle of absinthe from Betina and he felt he was ripped off.

The bottle he ordered was Deva 70%.

I told him to order directly from spirits corner (I guess that's how the Serpis shits incident began).

To sum up, he said the only reason he ordered from Betty was because of his fear of customs--fear which is perpetuated by posts like the one "Mike" made yesterday.

Betty charges what she can charge for Swiss LaBleu, Oxygenee and La Fee--and that's fine.

But to rip off someone for Spanish absinthe is thievery.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 05:26 am: Edit

I think Betina has a valid point when she speaks of the way this Forum treats newcomers. As ironic as it may be, there is political correctness here. You have to toe the party line...or have a really thick skin.

I remember the first thread I read, it was a question by...was it Igrokit? He got slammed, everybody telling him: "We know the answer and we are not telling you, nah, nah!"

We don't want to become inbred. Nobody has knowledge about absinthe programmed into his/her DNA. We all knew nothing at some point. People are going to ask stupid (well, not stupid, ignorant) questions and, if those questions are answered in the Forum's excellent FAQ, let's lead them there. If they're not answered, let's incorporate them into the FAQ.

There is a certain attraction to being the "magician", the "alchemist" who holds an obscure knowledge. Let's not succumb to it...

By Absinthesque on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 05:18 am: Edit

I second Marc's comments. I bought my first bottle of absinthe from Betty, and I remain an occasional customer. I've always found her to be straightforward and trustworthy in her dealings with me. Yes, her prices are high, but I'm willing to pay them for brands that are either difficult or impossible to obtain elsewhere. I don't feel ripped-off, and I don't think of she's price-gouging, particularly since she's taking a lot of personal risk in doing what she does. Let's cut her a little slack.

Mark

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 03:36 am: Edit

Betty, I remember a lot of people criticizing Justin in relation to La Bleue sales, and I even remember being one of them. I bet Justin remembers, too.

So much for your conspiracy theories.

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 02:07 am: Edit

heiko,

listen friend, I wasn't directing my comment at you. I was directing it at an attitude. Let's see what Don comes up with. Discussing the price lacks grace. Do you stand beside a painter as he does a landscape and discuss how much its worth? Of course not. Let Don create. Lets experience the result of his work. Then each of us can decide decide what its worth. Then we'll buy it or not. As for me, I spent at least a $100,000
on nose candy in the 80s. Today, I derive pleasure from a simple dinner in a restaurant and a good bottle of wine. Compared to blow, a $100
bottle of booze is a bargain.

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 02:00 am: Edit

I'm up and I'm stoned (a delicious wine called Big House Red). So, excuse me for running off at the mouth, but:

Has anyone in this forum been ripped off by Betty?

How many people who have attacked Betty in this forum do business with her? Terminus, Mr. Junior G-Man, you listening?

My guess is that the answer for both questions is zero.
Nobody ripped off. Nobody hurt.

If this is the case, then you mofos are a bunch
of drama-queening jerk-offs. Leave Betty alone. She's done nothing to you. Where I come from, we know how treat the ladies. I suspect its been awhile since you mofos have been in the presence of one.

By Heiko on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 01:56 am: Edit

Marc,

I guess you also (or mainly?) meant me with the "penny-ante rubes".
Well, I had the feeling that some say "come on, 100$ for a bottle of liquor, that's pocket change".
I like Ferrari pretty much, and 100,000$ for one might be extraordinarily cheap, but nevertheless I don't have the money to buy it...but of course I can't complain and say they should make cheaper cars...

I never said Don should "make it cheaper".
I will buy Jade, and maybe more than once. I just wanted to state that for me, the (assumed) price is extraordinarily high.
No intention to discredit Don's business - just a low voice shouting "remember there are some who will have to work hard to buy a bottle" - not everyone thinks 100$ is pocket change.

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 01:31 am: Edit

Accusing Betty of posting phony testimonials is pretty extreme. I was stunned by the level of vitriol directed at her. One forumite went so far as to insult her for the way she looks. Talk about a lack of grace or chivalry. I have not seen or spoken to betty in well over a year. We are distant friends who know little about each other. My experience of her has been, for the most part, very positive. She can be aggressive in her attempt to promote her business, but the same can be said of most entrepeneurs. She's an old school hustler who believes in what she's selling. She loves absinthe and the absinthe culture. She was among the first to offer absinthe for sale in this country. In the meantime, other sources have become available and Betty's position in the scene has changed. Its always frustrating to be a pioneer only to see others prosper from markets you helped create. But, its a dog eat dog business world. Betty may be feeling underappreciated for her efforts to introduce the world to absinthe. She has a missionary's zeal for what she does and occasionally she veers into a zone that appears
defensive and paranoid. In many ways, she reminds me of Don (Don will hate me for this comparison).
She's worked hard to track down sources for hard-to-get absinthes and what does
she get in return: abuse. Don is busting his chops trying to introduce a wonderful new product to the world and what does he get: a bunch of penny-ante rubes busting his chops because he dares to charge a $100 for a bottle of a liquor that is available nowhere else on the planet.
Betty and Don are forcing no one to buy their products. So, if you got a problem with it: fuck off. I have tracked down my own sources for La Bleu and La Fee. Betty no longer serves my needs.
Don is making something that only he and Ted will be the source of. I will gladly pay him $100 a bottle. Subsidising his business will be a pleasure.

By Heiko on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 12:49 am: Edit

Marc,
I didn't mean to accuse you. I only wanted to point out it needs more than one post (a lot more) to see what someone really thinks. And IMO all the posts flaming Betina were not a personal threat - but it's always something different if it is directed at you.

I think nobody can avoid being egocentric. If you try to avoid any possible conflict before you speak, you're not going to say anything anymore.

Betina (and everyone who was scared off),

post! And if someone tries to make fun of you, don't take it personal - give them a virtual kick in their butts and make fun of them as well. This is only a little competition in "who makes the best sarcastic remarks". Something like that... :-)

By Marc on Wednesday, May 16, 2001 - 12:14 am: Edit

heiko,

I happen to enjoy anatomist's posts. But, he is a sarcastic mofo, occasionally smug, who seems to have a problem being
sincere. But, he doesn't have to be. It is afterall a free world.

I agree, most of the forumites are cool people.
Thats why when everybody starts getting paranoid,
accusatory and judgemental, it so jarring. Of course, I'm as guilty of arrogance as anyone, as evidenced by my earlier post.

By Heiko on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 11:50 pm: Edit

"Strange connections go on in the surrounding circle..how many vultures circle this forum..20? My loyal customers quietly read and sip and dream of higher realms than bitter and cruel attacks upon both new entrants and a reliable and trustworthy source"

Sorry, but I always had the feeling most of the new posters join the party for some help on deciding what and where to buy, then they maybe post one more time. As soon as they have what they got they never post again because they received their Absinthe and have no interest in any further conversation. This is what I thought.

Are we using different Internets? I mean I know no place on the whole www where people in general are more polite than here. I could probably find some places where it's a lot worse.

I agree with you that dreaming of higher realms seems not to be welcome here. I was attacked at first when I was euphoric about my first Absinthe experiences. So what? I kept a little more quiet about things some obviously don't want to hear, but that doesn't mean I will totally retire and never post again.
btw. I was at the beginning pretty much shocked by Marc - back then he adressed me and Martin with: "[...] That is until you and Martin came along. I think you're just a couple of self-deluded youngbloods projecting your own cosmic needs onto a drink."
After I apologized for unintendedly having insulted some forumites before, it turned out we get along pretty well and our further conversation was suddenly full of peace and harmony.
It's all about talking - isn't it? Keep asking why somebody attacks you, it might turn out to be a joke that unintendedly seemed to be an attack in your eyes.

As Melinelly pointed out: don't leave the forum to the vultures - not all people here have the same opinion, not at all... but that's life.

Marc, "noxious clouds of sarcasm"? Is sarcasm noxious? I don't think Kevin's post was noxious - it shows he doesn't take himself too seriously, which I find to be a nice character trait!
Or...was your remark ironic and I didn't get it? ;-)

By Head_Prosthesis on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:37 pm: Edit

I'll sell you mine. It's a fixer up'er

By Marc on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:35 pm: Edit

anatomist,

I forgot to mention the noxious clouds of sarcasm that hover over this joint. Thanks for reminding me.

By Marc on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:35 pm: Edit

anatomist,

I forgot to mention the noxious clouds of sarcasm that hover this joint. Thanks for reminding me.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:34 pm: Edit

Stop, stop it! I've been drowned in modifiers...stop! STOP, ANATOMIST, STOP!!!!

By Anatomist1 on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:30 pm: Edit

I've been trying to get a life on eBay, but I keep getting outbid. Part of my trouble is that I'm really cheap and only willing to pay half what the life is worth. Still, I'm hoping that my day will come and I'll be the big auction winner. I'm holding out for one on the east coast where I can live in a lighthouse and write moving tales of brave reticence and stoicism in a small, uncannily real little town. Disturbingly intense passions lurking beneath the placid surface will periodically raise their ugly, unwelcome heads, leaving the reader stunned, yet enriched. When small groups of college creative writing students disturb my solitude for autographs and tidbits of serene wisdom, I will command them to get off my property while brandishing a sawed-off shotgun. My new life will rule.

K.

By Marc on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:06 pm: Edit

Betty,

I, for one, believe you and am saddened by the intensity of the venom spewed in your direction. The forum has become an inbred circle of paranoics
and absinthe nerds. With a few exceptions, the members of this circle need to get lives. When they're not attacking each other, they're lashing out at naive newcomers who have not learned to swim with the sharks.

I've complained in the past about the level of machismo, competiveness and arrogance that pollutes this forum. Do forumites believe that their familiarity with an exotic beverage makes them hipper or cooler than the rest of humanity?
Just because you've replaced your pocket protector
with an absinthe spoon don't mean shit. You're still square in my book. Kindness is cool, compassion is cool. Being a jerk on the internet
is for people who live little lives.

By Melinelly on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 08:01 pm: Edit

oh, and i didn't say anything about you writing mike's post. only lars' =) term was the germ there.

what i did say was based on an assumption of shady play.

By Melinelly on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 07:58 pm: Edit

thanks for the response, betina =) i know i for one would appreciate seeing you around more often than just the occasional stock announcement. i think folks didn't come down on justin because they knew him (or at least his net-self) while all we ever know of you is word of mouth (and we all know how nice and friendly that word is here ;)). notice that people don't jump down jim's throat when he sings your praises. again, the whole familiarity thing. i feel bad for first-timers who post their praises for your services and end up being flamed away... but a certain pattern has developed and people can only make assumptions in your absence.

anyhoo. good to see you posting. i was hoping you'd respond personally and clear some things up.

cheers!

em

By Head_Prosthesis on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 07:49 pm: Edit

I love you Betty. I've heard good things about you first hand. I just haven't had the gross amount of money to purchase any Bleu. I have tasted it and it's real yum!

You're alright girl.

By Betina on Tuesday, May 15, 2001 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Response to Customs' and Lars' Threads:

1. No, Mellinelly, I did not write Lars' post nor Mike's Customs'thread..in fact, I warned Lars if he did write it he would probably be attacked ..he had problems getting a user name, so I told him to type the review separate then submit it like I always do for any post so it would not get lost in the process. He still had problems so I directed him to e-mail the sites' masters himself. Ask Kallisti. I have never written ANY threads but my own. Ask Kallisti again..she knows I have difficulty with computer manuevers.
2. Mike has those Customs papers and offers a copy to anyone who would like to see them. He was upset when it occurred and told me that only Kallisti and I even repsponded in e-mail when the event occurred.
3. So Lars was excited..he still has some enthusiasm...he works hard and does not spend hours with nothing to do so that he reads every one of these thousands posts. He liked my service and product. So do the rest of my customers.
4. I guarantee everything 100%. My glasses, spoons,and liquors are 100% satisfaction guaranteed or money back.
5. No, Mr. Herb..get your facts straight. You offered me a ride in England after ORDERING SWISS and HERBSAINT FROM ME. I offered you a Deva as a gift...and a $100 discount on the Swiss for the help in transportation. Then you did not even have the COURTESY to cancel the order when you received both from other places..even asking me if I thought you purchased number 1! I was angry at your rudeness...I discovered you bought elsewhere from reading the forum AFTER you placed an order from me..'just cancel' I told you. Common courtesy.
5. AlL OF YOU: I request you attempt to Go find Oxygenee, La Fee, and Swiss La Bleues 1, 2, and, soon, 3, yourselves, instead of ridiculing my prices..go fly to Europe, pay the long distance phone and fax bills, hotels, fight with customs and at airport check-in, pay for boxes, packing, guides and translators...Then ship it the fastest, most expensive way for safety. Even then it is not over...two weeks ago I had 12 Swiss stuck in customs for two weeks. Then try your persuasion skills...I lost 24 to Customs last year..Mike from the Portal remembers. GO buy these products yourselves: IF you can get someone in England, France or Switzerland to even sell one bottle or in quantity to you. And then find the best quality...I have tasted now 13 Swiss..only 3 are exquisite.
7.EVERY TIME someone posts something fine about Betina Elixirs..you ALL descend and devour. My customers CHOOSE ME FROM THE VENDORS.Yet,oddly, when Justin was selling French La Blanc for $160..nobody balked..Strange connections go on in the surrounding circle..how many vultures circle this forum..20? My loyal customers quietly read and sip and dream of higher realms than bitter and cruel attacks upon both new entrants and a reliable and trustworthy source...How many people have quit posting now?: Absintheur, countless new posters, Someday it will just be the circle whirling around itself.
BETINA
BETINA ELIXIRS

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