|By Anatomist1 on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 03:45 pm: Edit|
I was actually thinking of that Nietzsche quote when uraj came out with that story about the vikings hanging out in the ash pit and eventually finding redemption. I can't help but think the same thing about both; namely, that I don't buy it. Although it sounds nice and I would LIKE to believe it, sometimes a stress that doesn't kill you fucks you up permanently and ruins your life. Think of paralysis, crippling injuries, horrific traumas that cause permanent inability to cope... sure, sometimes people triumph against such odds, but most of the time they're just screwed.
MY favorite quote is just about any one liner I've ever read by Mrs. Dorothy Parker. Check this out:
Also my favorite poem:
Razors pain you
Rivers are damp
Acids stain you
And drugs cause cramp
Guns aren't lawful
Gas smells awful
Might as well live
|By br0ther_ben on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 09:35 am: Edit|
I always thought it was funny that the US Marine Corps uses a FN quote as one of their motivational quips. It applies to drinking as well, I suppose. When I was in the Corps, we modified the statement slightly: Whatever doesn't kill you, only hurts real bad."
Anyway, in response to the FN/SF discussion, I have studied the two to some extent, and though I claim to be no expert I must say I enjoy their works greatly. I hope I didn't give anyone a different impression. As far as Freud is concerned, he did indeed boil everything down to "sex," but in fact you can take it down to an even more basic need, that is food. In his infant sexuality essays he makes it clear that the desire for the mother comes from the primal joy of feeding (the first sensation for an infant), and all of the other stuff comes from desires/lack thereof for the mother over the father, etc. BTW that is only one of Freud's popular theories of desire and behavior, and if you look at The Ego and the Id and On the Interpretation of Dreams it gets even more interesting. Maybe I should dig those up...
|By Don Walsh on Saturday, August 12, 2000 - 01:38 am: Edit|
My favorite quote from F.N. is, somewhat unfortunately, as it has become almost trite:
"Whatever doesn't kill you only makes you stronger."
He would have made a good metallurgist. That is sort of a definition of tempering.
F.N. and S.F. would have found happy common ground had S.F. not chosen to regard sadomasochism as a neurosis. It took 100 years for psychiatry to correct this error in USA (and in some parts of the world the error persists.) For sadomasochism is nothing but the exercise of power relationships in an erotic or sexual context. Voila! a synthesis of Freud and Nietzsche.
|By Fredie on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 03:46 pm: Edit|
Marc, you old hippy,
how's your new club coming along
been out for a while
|By Marc on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 03:23 pm: Edit|
I enjoy reading Paglia. She's a tough broad who has the courage to go against the political correctness fascists. She also wrote a witty and insightful book on Hitchcock's THE BIRDS.
|By Anatomist1 on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 10:52 am: Edit|
This is my understanding of the Nietzsche/Freud relationship as well. Both were on the cusp of a major paradigm change it western civilization: namely a new vision of human nature where reason, morality, and even consciousness itself are seen as a thin, flimsy veneer covering over a morass of selfish, blind animalistic drives and passions. Nietzsche got preoccupied with boiling in down to power relationships, and Freud boiled it down to sex. I remember reading that Freud deliberately avoided Nietsche's writings for fear that his compelling thought would end up highjacking his own vision against his will.
Incidentally, both these men are currently being railroaded by contemporary PC bigotry just like Christian thinkers. If I hear one more straw-man argument against Nietzsche's concept of power as "self over other" versus the eminently happy 'feminist' vision of "self with other", I'm going to start punching people. The same goes with the fashionable practice of dismissing Freud as a foolish pervert. I don't see how people who have spent almost no time studying anything can imagine that the greatest thinkers in history would turn out to be easily defeated simpletons. Another recommendation for those who enjoy Nietzsche: Camille Paglia. She's a worthy heir, yet her arena is contemporary media and university culture. Not coincidentally, she is also widely reviled and dismissed.
|By br0ther_ben on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 07:42 pm: Edit|
I like the recent posts, but I have to question this quote:
"Nietzsche (not that he's right about too many things, but so fun to read) wrote that cultures arise as a result of oppression and repression, basically tapping the ideas of Freud"
umm...hmm...Nietzsche was writing in the late 19th century...Freud through the early and mid 20th. In fact, Freud on occasion taps Nietzsche, I believe, like when he references Groddeck (I don't know who he is , but apparently he was influenced by Nietzsche) in The Ego and the Id (wonderful work, that one). But your original point is pretty valid, I think, if you look at Civilization and its Discontents.
|By Anatomist1 on Thursday, August 10, 2000 - 05:13 pm: Edit|
Speaking of evolution, the future and such, I highly recommend, to uraj and anyone else who is inclined towards the appreciation of grand imaginings, the novels of Octavia Butler. The last post reminded me of the Lilith's Brood trilogy, which is the most ingeniously odd exploration of current genetic knowledge through fiction that I have yet read. Her current series (Parable of the Sower, Parable of the Talents) is a no holds barred, dark, dark vision of the near future, including the rise of christian-themed fascism, that will send you on a trip to the local gun dealer. It's ironic -- she gets much attention from the fact that she's practically the only black woman sci-fi writer ever, yet her vision is so bleak and complex that no one with a 'celebrate diversity' bumper sticker would last fifty pages. At last, an heir to Frank Herbert!
|By uraj on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 11:05 pm: Edit|
Sorry about the obscure "Overmind" reference. It's a term in some Arthur C. Clark books, which I admit I haven't read. I've ran across the term in other books, referring to a collective consciousness or noosphere (the sphere of human knowledge), which, like cyberspace, is an abstract term, the sum that is greater than the parts of its constituent intelligent organisms or nodes.
As far as the loss of innocence and the dangers of complete release of inhibitions, I would have to agree. Nietzsche (not that he's right about too many things, but so fun to read) wrote that cultures arise as a result of oppression and repression, basically tapping the ideas of Freud. (By way of contrast, I just read a quote by archaeologist R.E.M. Wheeler: "Culture begins when concern ends about where the next meal is coming from.") If there is no "man," no thing to rebel against, if life is too easy, then how much fun can life be? Life does not exist because of convenience, or that ample opportunity was provided. We and every living thing on this planet, and the universe as well, is a result of complex systems defying the general entropic tendencies of universal heat-death, and becoming more complex. That means that our ancestors and their evolutionary ancestors had to fight and scrape and destroy anything that stood in the way of their continued existence and the passing on of their genetic information, the replication of their bloodline. We are the results of thousands of years of conflict, of oppression of nature and higher orders. This is not just a support of Darwinism, for we have found as social, complex organisms that cooperation can be more powerful than wholesale competition against any unlike organisms. Someday, I think, that we as a race of humans will stop destroying our planet in this spirit, and cooperate with our fellow earthlings, and we shall become part of something greater, and achieve things that we haven't even begun to think of. But it won't be handed to us. Yes, conflict and oppression is necessary for evolution. The sixties, IMHO, wasn't really a "revolution", the aspect of that term I take to mean that a lower class of people formerly oppressed have taken power by relatively sudden means, but, in my eyes, a plateau after a long struggle uphill, the way a valley of heather and alpine lakes explodes into view while cresting a pass after climbing through ruthless granite fields. Later, though, that valley will get boring (a most insiduous oppression),or dry up, and it will be time to move on.
Isn't there a buddhist saying that's flavored something like: "If you meet a buddha on the road, kill him."?
peace and conflict,
|By blackjack on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 12:54 pm: Edit|
Thanks, guys. I had a similar post, but it got lost in the ether. Buddhism is a huge and diverse category of belief-systems practiced by hundreds of millions of people, and to try draw a border around it is futile. Just as Christianity did in Europe, as Buddhism spread through Asia it adapted itself to the character and culture of the peoples it encountered. It has become much more tha the teachings of the Buddha, just as Christianit has become much more than the teachings of Christ.
Tho I'll lay odds the Buddha wouldn't have approved of gassing subways...
I don't blame religion for the crimes committed in its name. Religion is basically neutral; an evil religious person will do evil in the name of their religion and a good religious person will do good in the name of their religion. Remember the Bible was used to justify slavery and to oppose it...
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 10:12 am: Edit|
Anatomist and Black Rabbit,
Thankyou for your insightfull posts.
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 09:38 am: Edit|
I have to agree that Buddhism is mostly a religion. They have dogma, rituals, quibbling sects and the like. Many people read the Dharma Bums by Keroauc and think that's Buddhism. But that's Zen, only one type, and it's not really even Zen. It's a bunch of hippies getting drunk all the time and doing whatever they please. Don't get me wrong, I like the book. It has a vibrant spirit. But Zen is the least religion-like of the Buddhisms, and, as practiced in Japanese monasteries, is an unbelievably structured and disciplined way of life. Kerouac wouldn't have lasted a day. Even though Zen is more free of dogma than other Buddhisms, I think it has limitations that are carefully hidden. All that talk of extirpating human passions, sitting around 'observing' your thoughts, denying the possibility that conscious thinking might be substantive or constructive for anything except bare practicalities. I think I'll save that for the geriatric phase of my life. Of course, they can deflect any such criticism by saying that you can't understand unless you've sat on a cushion for years and experienced it for yourself. Convenient, eh?
I'm not a christian. I'm not a commie. I'm a flexible thinker. Mike in particular should be ashamed of his bigotry. I think a very simple-minded view of religion is prevailing here, and that's a shame. Christianity may not be salvageable, but there's a lot more to it than dividing people from their bodies or starting wars. In particular, Christianity contains the very simple, beautiful concept of Grace. If you analyze the New Testament, the overriding themes are forgiveness and compassion. The sabbath was the first labor reform: eveyone gets a day off per week. Sure, there's a bunch of outdated thinking in any 2000 year-old book, but that doesn't means it's worthless. The fact that many people have interpreted a book in atrocious or harmful ways isn't an indictment of it either.
I'm not particularly religious, or much of a Bible reader myself, but if y'all don't pry your minds open a little, I'm gonna have to start thumping one with my fist.
|By Black Rabbit on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 06:39 am: Edit|
'There has never been a war or battle fought in the name of Buddha. Buddhism is not a religion'
I have read of militant buddhist sects who had no problem helping you start your next life. I believe in Edo era japan, when the xtians were making inroads, it was considered quite the civic buddhist duty to kill them. Also take a look at the bloody battle for temple succession that was fought in Japan recently. Monks beating the crap out of each other, hanging out of windows, riot police with rubber bullets and fire hoses...
I think it *contains* a philosophy, but then so does christianity, you know? But it is most definitely a religion. There are temples, where large groups of people who don't really get it go and pay lip service each week. There are monks, and established beliefs, and sectarian squabbles. What else do you need for a religion? Tammy Faye? ;-)
Booze was not considered square by all hippies. My father-in-law-to-be drank absinthe in the 60s a few times himself. And my parents were hippies-they drank quite a bit of booze (among other things.)
Fundamentally, though, the 60's were different (I think- I wasn't there.) I think there is a sort of cultural cycle- a tightening of mores and taboos, getting gradually more restrictive and pervasive. And then a sort of mass desire for change and less restriction. Victoria to the 20's, and the 50's to the 60's...
And the 20's are still remembered for roaring. To say the hippies (and the rest of the people in the 60's) didn't cause profound social change is silly. Gay black men can now go into any diner in the US (save in certain rural areas) get a cup of coffee, talk to the *female* manager about how crappy it is, and not pay for this experience with life and limb (big white truckers will look on impassively.)
The hippies kicked ass and took names in the 60's. Some of em still are. Rock on, O Hippies!
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 02:32 am: Edit|
the 60's were not a "boozefest". Booze was straight peoples' dope. It was square.
|By Billynorm on Wednesday, August 09, 2000 - 12:57 am: Edit|
I didn't know Shakespeare sang, but then I'm just a 60s burn-out! But I'm not burnt out enough to tell you what he meant by "Methinks thou dost protest too much." The true meaning of that line is also the title of a song that was a hit in 1960 (Joe Jones sang it), "You Talk Too Much." I can't remember if Shakespeare said this (it's the acid, you know) but I'll repeat it anyway, "Physician, heal thyself!"
|By Marc on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 02:31 pm: Edit|
Check out my website, marccampbell.com. And then tell me I'm a "boring old fart".
|By jonjonson on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 12:45 pm: Edit|
Ones who came of age in the 60's for some reason
cannot stop talking about it, defending it, trying
desperately to salvage some meaning from the long
strange trip it was. And I am sure it was.
But to say it was a MORE important time than the
50's 40's, 20's of 70's is just laughable ("when i
was young it was MORE important", eric burdon
sings, but he later sings, "when i think of all
the good times that i wasted having good times".
If eric burdon gets it, why can't the less burned
Of course, it was the best time in the world, of
course, you had to be there, of course, no time
was like it, except every other decade's
generation at that age in their lives. The only
reason boring old farts go on about it so much,
and more to the point, the only reason they are
ALLOWED to go on about the 60's so much, is that
there are so fucking many of them. (Which leads to
questions of enough brains to go around, but
that's another song.)
And since you guys like talking shakespeare (he
was pre dylan) wasn't it he who sang
"methinks thou dost protest too much".
the 60's was a great booze/drugfest. You got laid.
You left your home and did things you'd never done
before...Guess what? so did everybody else at
that age, in every decade. And They all had their
literary/musical/artistic heroes who were not at
all like the others.
And so on to infinity...
my name is jon jonson i live in wisconsin
I work in a lumbermill there
the people i meet when i walk down the streeet
they ask my my name and i say...
|By Marc on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 08:06 pm: Edit|
There has never been a war or battle fought in the
name of Buddha. Buddhism is not a religion, it is a philosophy. Buddhism promotes compassion and love for one's fellow man/woman. It is a philosophy that recognizes that "what goes around,
comes around". Or, to quote The Beatles: "The love you take is equal to the love you make".
The 60's served as a pressure release valve for all the repressed and stagnant energy in the collective body and mind of modern man and woman.
After centuries of religious oppression, we needed to "let go", to reorient ourselves to nature, sexuality and bliss. Rock and roll and psychedelics reconnected us to the primordial
forces within the cosmos. As a society, modern Americans, have become divorced from the rituals that make us human. Dance, song, sweatlodges,
hunting, vision quests, peyote, mushrooms...
these were traditional mediums through which man aligned himself with the gods. Today, it's MTV, WWF and N'SYNC that serve as our myths and rites of passage. The rave culture, with it's extasy and techno-beats, is the closest thing we a have to a collective ritual theater that celebrates our capacity for bliss and transcendence. Men and women will always look for paths that lead to liberation and pleasure. It is human nature to want to feel good and to discover what it is that animates our lives.
There is no shame in sex and drugs. They've been a vital part of our humanity for thousands of years. It is religion that has poisoned us,
creating a division between mind and body and teaching us to hate our flesh. Religion is a political tool used by those in power to control
and weaken the masses. An enlightened society would not tolerate the current state of the planet
Earth. Earth is in pain because we are.
|By Mike on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 06:59 pm: Edit|
What about the Christians who have done nothing but KILL in the Name of their God?
To each is their own I guess. I don't think any religion is any better than another, but this is getting silly. It does no disservice if a person uses God, Krishna, Bhudda or whoever, all believers are lost in their own Myth.
It's the talk of revolutions and the killing of others that the mighty whitey rants on about which makes them a joke when it end a letter with "The God of Abraham Love"
Where's the Love in a death threat?
Somebody is obviously a old school Commie! Who was hurt by its father, maybe even sexually abused it sounds like. This person hates itself and the World around it, and drowns its sorrows in a Haze of ignorence and deceit.
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 06:49 pm: Edit|
That WAS a good post. However, I'd like to know more about the veracity of that Viking metaphor. I mean it sounds good, and makes a nice point, but I dunno... not being a poetry person I wouldn't be a good judge of the ash-warriors' work in that regard. Were they really good at killing, raping, and pillaging?
And... I just have to ask... the "Overmind", with a capital "O"? Is this a reference to something I should know? I was a twentysomething acid fiend too, but I need some elucidation on this one.
But, all seriousness aside, I would like to put the point I was trying to make in more abstract terms. Namely that repression and reserve have some value. This value is something we look to the past for, because the sixties successfully destroyed most of what was left of it in general society. I think the lure of pining for bygone times a la absinthe is along the same lines as fascination with Jane Austin stories. Think about the tension that builds up between characters that love one another so intensely that they're liable to explode, yet they remain trapped beneath corsets and proprieties, and the tension just keeps building. That depth and breadth of feeling, the investment of every gesture and word with exquisite subtlety and nuance, would never occur if they had just fucked the first night they met, circa 1968. By analogy, I think we look to turn-of-the-century Paris, or the Algonquin round table, at least in part, to imagine the pleasures of rebellion and eccentricity in a more constrained context. Sure, today I could get animal horns fused to my skull and chain my scrotum to my earlobes, or glue a yogurt lid on the wall and convince people it's an art show, but it wouldn't be any fun. I'm not saying that overall, I'd like to be living in 1902, or that the world has been ruined by the sixties, just that something has been lost. The significance of commercials isn't that they are the sole legacy of the sixties. But, they are the worst incarnation of the beast unleashed by sixties culture, and they are ruining our lives. Commercials swallow and trivialize everything for profit, and leave us hyped up, our souls improvrished.
Oh I must be in mighty wistful mood, because I'm about to quote a modern day Puritan on the Forum:
"For need can blossom into all the compensation it requires. To crave and to have are as like as thing and its shadow. For when does a berry break upon the tongue as sweetly as when one longs to taste it, and when is the taste refracted into so many hues and savors of ripeness and earth, and when do our senses know any thing so utterly as when we lack it? And here again is a foreshadowing -- the world will be made whole. For to wish for a hand on one's hair is all but to feel it. So whatever we may lose, very craving gives it back to us again. Though we dream and hardly know it, longing, like an angel, fosters us, smooths our hair, and brings us wild strawberries."
-Marilynne Robinson, from Housekeeping
|By Marc on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 11:00 am: Edit|
That was a terrific post. Well-balanced, insightul and true.
|By uraj on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 10:43 am: Edit|
Well, I've been gone from the forum for a while, moving and all that, but I'm jacked in again, and it seems the absinthe "movement" is gaining steam, as well as a few new brand names. I'm hearing other people talk about it, that aren't necessarily connected within the "underground."
I was at Mardi Gras and picked up a bottle of HerbSaint, and I've barely touched it (been real busy). Funny story, I was in an oyster cafe on Bourbon with old friends, and I ordered an Herbsaint to go along with the Bluepoints, and I get it in a plastic cup. I take a sip, and then hand it to a friend of mine, Viper, to say, "Taste this," and since it's a little rowdy there in those parts, he barely heard me, and thought I said, "Take this," and he downed the entire jigger. Oh the look on his face was priceless. In other news, I do have an absinthe fetus, a bottle of steeped alcohol, that's ready for the still. Viper and I went in on a ready-built one and will let you know of outcome.
To comment on the sixties, the commercialization of absinthe, and all that:
I've picked up the tone on the forum in the past that anyone who is trying to go for any kind of psychoactive effect from absinthe is just a poseur looking for a cheap thrill. To name drop Terence McKenna, Tim Leary, et al., who have suggested that a crucial step in evolution is the ingestion and incorporation of psychedelics in human culture: Much as the same way the body requires food, they said, couldn't the same argument be made for psychedelics and the human mind? I know that there's not a few connoisseurs here, and I'm all for decor. You like the taste, the setting, the louche, and the reminiscence of an era that we seek an analog of within a glass. But we should also be reminded that absinthe was a genuine health threat in France and not just the haute couture enjoyed it, that the same working rabble that sucked it down by the millions are the same millions that today consume too much alcohol, pot, speed, nicotine, caffeine... Hopefully what we can engender here is the practice of moderation, the appreciation of decorum. I would say all of us are guilty of going overboard on any substance we've used, and we did that because we wanted the effects. I remember in my early twenties just being absolutely hungry for acid. Why? A mental weakness? I've had a couple of bad trips, but on the whole I beleive I'm a better person for all the trips I've taken, that it has provided me with a different insight into my mind, as well as the Overmind.
As for the sixties, I was born in 69, so everything I've experienced has been second hand, mainly through music. To discount the era as a waste of time and a drug induced haze is myopic, and the logic that just because some of the cats who've gone on to be successful entrepreneurs absolutely condemns the movement as hypocritical is faulty. Sure, I get a little bothered by Ben and Jerry's copy, or the Freedom Rock ads, but would you rather we be back in the fifties? There is a lot more freedom of expression nowadays, despite the looming threat of globalization, and the threat to criminalize forums such as this and others that advocate the use of illegal drugs. Do you think a female could drive around in the pre-60s with Wicca stickers and symbols on her car without fear of harassment (I'm sure there's harassment of this kind today, but it can't be as bad). To discount the relation of the Civil Rights movement to the era is equally blind. There's a long way to go, but the cross-breeding of African- and Anglo-European-American cultures is a sign of hope, and the breaking point was in the sixties. Yeah, there were a lot of dudes just trying to get high and laid, but a lot of those same dudes were just dropping out of the previous generation's programming, finding it wrong to carry on the same prejudices and evolution-hindering practices. In Viking culture, some men would go through a "time of ashes", that is, just drop out of the tribe and lay around in the lodge in the ashes shoveled out from the firepit. Not talking, starving until someone threw them some food, sometimes for years. Then one day they would finally decide to stand up and take a bath, and they would turn out to be great warrior-poets. I see the same thing going on with the sixties, or any "underground" movement, and even the "slacker" phenomenon that I was caught up in during the 90s, that causes the last generation to shake their head. Maybe not every kid wants to go charging out of high school into college and a full-on corporate career. While dropping out on the surface looks like a standing-still, in a subterranean manner it can really be a moving ahead.
But finally a lot of these hippies had to get up, and get something going. Some of them make scads of money, and some of them make enough to buy a house, and lot of them are into politics, and some of them are not, just riding and shuffling around, still in the ashes. My hope is that those politicians and upstarts who wear Armani with a Jerry Tie will finally gain enough control over the Old Guard and Money, and release the grip that the prohibition-era and World-War generation has had over the American government, one result being to finally decriminalize drugs, and put an end to bloating the prison industry with non-violent, victimless outlaws. Yeah, maybe those guys look like they've sold out, but if they can change things for the better, maybe that's the way it was meant to be. I think there's a lot more going on socially than just the selling you see on commercials, in regards to the effects the counterculture has had on all of us.
So maybe someday, hopefully soon, thanks to the sixties and the ohties, anybody can buy Absinthe here in the states, or grow their own weed, or whatever. We'll never be totally free, I fear, at least not in my lifetime, but it's the fight that counts.
Peace (And I don't use that casually),
|By BloodStreamRuns on Sunday, August 06, 2000 - 09:04 am: Edit|
Furthermore, "the proof is in the pudding" is not even the real phrase. If one will go back to Shakespeare's original text, it reads as follows:
"The proof of the pudding is in the taste"
which makes a lot more sense...
|By Artemis on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 08:43 am: Edit|
"The proof is in the pudding"
Why do you people keep repeating that nonsense?
Ask yourself, what the fuck does it mean?
|By malhomme on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 12:41 am: Edit|
He's not using Jah as a psuedonym. It's an affect.
"but to attack him for using a word that some other people like to use in their mythology is a little silly"
It may have been extra-topical, and I may have had too much Deva (,Beardsley, and Wilde), but it did/does tick me off. If the Dyaks (sp) of Borneo smoked pot this goober would be spouting "Ahping Love!"
Yes, I regret having made my flame-y post, but I stand by what I said. He does a real dis-service to a peoples living culture. I don't know about Ted, but my skin crawls when I hear McDonald's "Cajun McChicken" ad. I get cold-sweats when I read a menu and it describes "Cajun Crawfish Risotto" or somesuch crap.
It's not that I'm an extreme purist or something... so many good things, indeed most good things, have been the result of the cross-pollination of cultures. But I resent the wholesale marketing and bastardization of any peoples culture, especially my own.
You'll never (oh, I so hope!) see boudin on a McDonalds menu, or ponce, or coush-coush, les orielles de cochon... but you will find an awfull "sound-bite" of Cajun culture: "Cajun McChicken only 99 cents".
And it's not just Cajuns, it's Italians too. "Mama mia, that Olive Garden has got real Italian food! Why, I just took my uncle Guido from Sicily to the Olive Garden and he got the Tuscan Penne al Milanico, with the baby portabello mushrooms, and boy was he happy. It was just like dining in the orange blossomed hills of home!"
What are they going to sell us next?!
Authentic Japanese microwaveable sushi?
So, yes I'm offended by dumbed-down, white-boy, rastafarianism. He wears it like a drugstore cowboy wears a Stetson.
|By Captain Rotundo: Defender of the Universe on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 01:14 pm: Edit|
well I was not trying to incite flames, I was just saying that the whole 'jah' thing was a little silly. I agree with you. I am a devote anchist / marxist therefore I find decieving poeple to steal from them to be morally repugnant, but on the other hand I think insulting/making fun of religion is a perfectly good way to spend the time. ;)
BTW- Don't think that means I dont have a sence of humor when it comes to me own political beliefs as well!
|By br0therben on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 12:47 pm: Edit|
Well, I don't have any problem with Wiz using JAH as a psuedonym... its no different than using the name Odin as far as I am concerned - its all superstition anyway (IMHO).
Though I think 25 bucks is steep for absinthe, let's not forget that there are people buying the stuff, too. I was just commenting on the 60s stuff...
|By Captain Rotundo: GOD of the Universe on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 12:16 pm: Edit|
you people are insane. the Wiz is obviously a capitolist asshole, and we will take care of his kind when the revolution comes! but to attack him for using a word that some other people like to use in their mythology is a little silly.
The God of Abraham Love,
|By br0therben on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 08:07 am: Edit|
About the sixties,
I dunno, people. I would like to think that any world-wide youth movement can create a positive environment for change. Unfortunately, I have the feeling that what we (the younger ones amongst us) are told about the sixties is probably a bunch of crap. I am actively involved in the hacking "movement," and i can tell you that there isn't a single mass-media source out there that really knows what it is all about. I presume the hippy/peace/60s movement was/is represented in the same inaccurate fashion.
My parents were both involved in the anti-war movement, and my father went to Nam and was well-decorated. I dunno, from what I remember he didn't have a big problem doing his time and getting out, and my mother didn't seem to have a problem opposing the war and simultaneously supporting those who were over there getting shot (i.e., about 30 percent of the young males in my family at that time). Nobody was spitting on vets and all that crap.
There were a lot of drugs, I think, but I'll bet there were almost as many in my youth. We just didn't make a big deal about them...
60s politics. I think most of those guys were just angry. And have you ever read Abbie Hoffman's "Steal this Book?" What a bunch of shit. Not only are his politics completely confused (I guess he was some sort of nihilist), but he doesn't know much about most of the topics he wrote about, other than stealing. he was the kind of guy giving the sixties a bad name, I'm sure. I am all for DIY publishing, but his work lacks (IMHO) experience. From what I gather, Abbie did a lot of stealing and smoking dope, but his buddies probably did all the fighting, rioting, smuggling, etc. He is just like all the college professors who claim to be hippies but don't know what CS or bud smells like. HAHA.
The music of the sixties ruled then as it does now. A lot of soul in those tunes. I grew up on punk and hardcore, and most of that stuff had an authenticity (especially for the urban youth)that is matched only by some of the stuff from the sixties. I know most of you probably think it sucks, well ok. Punk (stuff like GBH, NYD and Sham69) was musically not as sophisticated as much of the stuff from the 60s primarily because it was very home-grown. Dudes in their garages or in alleys just jamming.
I guess some of the ambient/trance electronic music is like that today: kids spinning and mixing their own stuff and pressing vinyl on home-bashed record presses.
Does this relate to Absinthe? Yeah, in a way: A lot of people drinking what they want and talking about it on a small forum. "Authentic" Absinthe wasn't available when I first started reading this forum...soon it may be. Already at least four new absinthes have been introduced onto the market, and I have a suspicion people on this forum had an influence on those product. This is a micro-movement that is going its own way...and Don had a good point about keeping his product out of the "mass market" niche. This will keep the marketeers from developing a product based on the faceless, tasteless apetites of the herd. I don't want that trash...
I want Le Fee Morte...
|By Anatomist1 on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 07:07 am: Edit|
In many ways I agree with this 'hooray for the sixties' talk. However, isn't a huge part of the lure of Absinthe about harkening back to a more reserved time, when eccentriciy and rebellion had subtler colorations? As one who was born in 1969, I actually harbor a certain resentment toward the 60's generation, who by and large shot their whole wad and then turned around and sold out before I even came on the scene. Rebellion is now the province of burger king and mountain dew commercials. In a desperate attempt to stay a half-step ahead of the marketeers, kids are walking around on their pants and poking holes in any part of their body they can find. Not that this rate of change wasn't inevitable... About the only element of life that I find unconditionally improved by the sixties is music, which is far more interesting now than it was then or ever.
Of course, this is all about the hippy legacy, and not the hippies themselves. Any interviews I've ever seen with hippies circa-late-sixties (e.g. Woodstock movie, documentaries, etc...) always seemed to reveal inarticulate, blindly hedonistic morons. Also, personally I don't find contemporary american hygiene habits one of the elements of modern life that needs to be rebelled against...
Music aside, if I had a time machine, I'd mostly be visiting the 1900-1920 time period. I'll bet most of the Absinthers are with me.
|By Marc on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 12:33 am: Edit|
Just listing all these great artists and thinkers of the 60's is getting me high.
right on, brother!
|By Marc on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 12:30 am: Edit|
Thelonius Monk, Gregory Corso, Diane Di Prima,
The Fugs, Joni Mitchell, Richard Farina, Godard,
Jefferson Airplane, The Byrds, The Doors, Phillip
Dick, Norman Mailer, Hunter S. Thompson, Sandoz Laboratories, Thomas Pynchon, Jackson Pollock, The Velvet Underground, Eldridge Cleaver,
Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Jimi Hendrix, Hermann Hesse, Richard Alpert, Lawrence Ferlinghetti...
|By Billynorm on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 11:49 pm: Edit|
I'm in your amen corner!
Please allow me to add a few more names: Miles Davis, Lenny Bruce, William S. Burroughs, Thomas Pynchon, Kurt Vonnegut, Richard Brautigan, Timothy Leary, Charles A. Reich, Ornette Coleman, Don Van Vliet, Charles Mingus, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, the Firesign Theater, & (I know there are more but I'm getting tired) Mort Sahl!
Excuse me, but I need a drink!
|By Marc on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 11:21 pm: Edit|
"Drug-induced haze". My mind is clear. I stand by what I said. The proof is in the pudding. This very forum is a testament to the opening up of communication and experimentation, intellectually and sensually, that the 60's triggered. It's obvious. Ken Kesey is not a crackhead. If so, prove it. He wrote one of the pivotal novels of the century, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. Today he's a teacher of creative writing in Oregon.
Dancing Bear, I'm sorry your 60's reality was so unproductive. As for me, I remember every delicious moment of that decade. "Dead end"?
I don't think so. I have many close friends who were "heads" back then and they are quite successfull and happy today. If you ever visit New York City, I would love to have you as my guest in any of my 3 restaurants and nightclubs.
A few other dead enders:
The Beatles, The Stones, Tom Robbins, Andrew Weill, Stanley Kubrick, Allen Ginsberg, Jack Nicholson, Robert Anton Wilson, Ralph Nader,
The Grateful Dead, Bob Marley, Santana, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Hal Ashby, Leonard Cohen,
Richard Lester, George Carlin, John Coltrane, Pharoah Sanders, Stan Brakhage, Pink Floyd...
Yeah, the 60's was a real cultural wasteland full of losers in drug-induced hazes. Bullshit.
Dancing Bear you've stopped dancing.
|By Dancing Bear on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 07:54 pm: Edit|
Marc or Hippymc,
The Hippies did nothing to change this World for the better. The proofs in the pudding. The World's worse off since the hipster movement started and that proof is everywhere you go. All of us old-timers lived in a drug induced haze back then. The ideals were great but nothing ever came to light. Just a great big dead end! It still rolls on.
If you really think you made a difference, then GROOVEY MAN, I realy feel better with all the negitive postings and issues I keep reading here and in the newspapers, and watch on the News, see in real life.
Ken Kessey and his gang at the Hog Farm are a bunch of thieves and Crack-heads. They rip off people every Sept. at the Hog Farm Family picnic.
Yes you were ranting.
|By WIZ on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 07:35 pm: Edit|
Take it as you will.
Let the flames roll on.
I live my life without any regrets or ill-will towards anyone.
|By Marc on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 02:24 pm: Edit|
I don't know what happened to the beginning of that post, but it should have read:
"Wiz just plain pisses me off. There are too many white "rude boys" co-opting hippie values and the
rasta religion without understanding either one."
|By Marc on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 02:18 pm: Edit|
I'm not trigger happy. Wiz just plain pisses me opting hippie values and the rasta religion off. There are too many white "rude boys" co-without really understanding either one. As a guy who lived in the Haight Ashbury during the so-called "summer of love", I've seen underground culture trashed by poseurs for almost 4 decades.
The same greedy merchants that are making all kinds of claims for absinthe, ie. calling it "liquid ecstacy" etc., are not dissimilar from those who tried to buy and sell hippie culture.
Of any mass youth movement to have appeared in the last century, the hippies were the most misunderstood, misrepresented and maligned.
We changed this planet for the better. I really believe that. I hate the fact that people only focus on the obvious and superficial elements of hippiedom and not on the profound social changes we helped spearhead. Peace, love , a respect for the earth, feminism, spirituality, new music, new art, healthy eating, alternative medicine, natural childbirth, the end to the Vietnam war, racial harmony...these are issues that the hippies brought to the surface of American consciousness. The Beatles picked up on it. John Kennedy picked up on it, young hip filmmakers picked up on it, Ken Kesey picked up on it, tv picked up on it (Laugh In, The Smother Brothers)etc. etc. The hippies infiltrated American culture and changed it.
Shit, I'm ranting.
|By Anatomist1 on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 01:13 pm: Edit|
By far the most damning eveidence against WIZ is his inability to take a joke. The fact that everyone on the forum probably got an instant chuckle out of that line says it all. By trying to defend himself against a trifling joke that was already over, he just made himself a further target... not even a moving one at that.
Personally, I don't think a humorless, hypercapitalist white guy who dons the external trappings of a black zionist movement as a fashion statement is much of a threat to anyone's religion, or in much danger of being taken seriously by anyone. You guys are just trigger happy.
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 12:29 am: Edit|
Wiz is not calling himself "Jah Wiz". I misread a much earlier post of his. Nonetheless, I still think he cheapens the word Jah by his casual use
of it. Particularly, when he surrounds it with terms
like "brain farts" and "what a jerk". Where's the "jah love" in those remarks. Hypocrite.
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 12:11 am: Edit|
I agree. Wiz is trivializing the name of God
(Jah) by using it as his moniker. If I call myself God or Jesus I'd better be prepared to take on the karmic responsibility to live up to those hallowed names. These young white dudes with dreads and phony Jamaican accents are clowns.
The real Rastas live simple lives, close to nature and are devout in their religious beliefs.
They use marijuana as a sacrament. It's not a recreational drug, but, a spiritual tool. They don't sell $25 shots of Deva out of the back of a day-glo van. Jah Wiz uses the Rastafarian vernacular as a signifier of coolness. To me, that is sacrilege, plain and simple. It cheapens
something that is deep and meaningful to a whole culture of people.
By the way, I saw an ad in Rolling Stone Magazine for Bob Marley Brand shoes. That's right. Someone has purchased the rights to Marley's name and is manufacturing footwear with his name on the label.
What's next? Gandhi all cotton briefs? The Mother Theresa Collection of ready-to-wear peasent skirts and matching hoods? I'm waiting to get my Jesus Jammies, so that I can sleep like an angel.
|By malhomme on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 11:02 pm: Edit|
Thanks for catching my slip, Justin. Too much Wilde and Beardsley (and Deva), I guess.
It is Rastafarian... (Hebrew, I think, by way of Ethiopia (the 13th tribe of Israel)). Very perceptive.
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:37 pm: Edit|
Ok I am totaly ignorant but with is "Jah?" I am assuming that is some latin or sub-asiatic miss transliteration of the Hebrew "Yah" short for YHVW (Hashem Barkhu). Is it a Rastarfarian (sp?) thing or something else. Not up on the whole hippy thing..was raised in a slightly more orthodox setting.
Shalom -and like like bagels too..I mean whats not to like c:)
|By malhomme on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:17 pm: Edit|
I've always been surprised at just how entrepreneurial hippies are. Hippies and Young Republicans have never had so much in common as they do today. "Wanna buy some Indian Love Beads? Absinthe?" "How about this Canyonero? Suburban?"
New SAT question:
Love beads, SUV's, Jesus, drugs :: ?, Car Salesmen, Evangelists.
The thing I most resent is that he's refering to someone's religion. This is a real and alive thing! Just because you smoke a bowl and get laid a couple of times by naive suburban girls for all the "Jah-talk" it doesn't make you a Rasta'.
I like bagels but I don't end my posts with "Salome". I like buffalo meat and the smell of sweetgrass but I don't end my posts with "Mitakuye Oyasin" WIZ is not my relative.
How can WIZ not expect to be criticized? Who would come here to brag about his outrageous profit and then front "Jah-love"? AND THEN NOT SEE THE IRONY!!!
We've heard the talk. Now where's the walk?
(This reminds me SO MUCH of the Simpson's episode where Homer is Poochie on Itchy & Scratchy.... There, I've said too much)
|By Marc on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 08:42 pm: Edit|
alfred and absinthepusher,
unless you guys have something to hide, why don't you post your e-maill addresses ? Got to walk it like you talk it.
|By Marc on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 08:41 pm: Edit|
Wiz sold Deva for $25 a shot to gullible hippie-wannabees who were looking for some kind of mystical absinthe experience. Nobody's gonna buy a $25 shot for anything at one of these jam band concerts unless they think they're going to get psychedelicized. I don't mind somebody being entrepenurial, but I do think overcharging people for absinthe at rock concerts is probably the kind of public relations absinthe doesn't need.
Psst. Wanna buy some X, windowpane, sinsemilla, absinthe...? As an old hipster myself, I resent
youngbloods, like Wiz, slinging words like Jah and love around as if words alone constitute hipness. You got to walk it like you talk it.
Back in the 60's we had a name for cats like Wiz.
We called them weekend hippies. They only had the guts to let their freak flags fly on the weekends.
It was back to school or work on Mondays. My bullshit detector tells me that Wiz is nothing but a New Age conman selling his wares to starry-eyed and naive weekend hippies.
|By Alfred Lord Fagosio on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 08:21 pm: Edit|
It should be:
I and I love money.
|By Alfred Lord Fagosio on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 07:45 pm: Edit|
What a jerk, selling absinthe shots for $20.00 ea. at the hippie-circus.
Jah love money.
|By Marc on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 06:15 pm: Edit|
In addition to being a ripoff artist, you lack a sense of humor. You're taking to the high moral ground, is kind of like Bill Clinton lecturing on marital fidelity.
|By Marc on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 06:12 pm: Edit|
absinthepusher's post is funny.. Too bad the dude can't spell.If the post is supposed to read like a press release, it would be more effective if it were polished. As a result of it's crudeness, it fails as satire.
|By WIZ on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 04:51 pm: Edit|
Whatever you are, you are a liar.
To quote you:
"I sold LE FEE MORTE for fifty dollars a shot at the local high school! Those kids went bannanas!"
What a jerk, I never wrote that.
Absinthepusher you're producing brain farts.
You know the truth!
Such is what the World is made of.
|By Artemis on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 03:04 pm: Edit|
Probably the best post I've ever seen in this forum. I especially like the part about chasing people down the street with the sword cane.
ROTFL, I can say with all honesty.
|By tabreaux on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 11:49 am: Edit|
Too much time on your hands!
|By absinthepusher on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:10 am: Edit|
LE FEE MORTE
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Brought to you by the makers of the authentic Swills Absinthe
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