|By Don Walsh on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 07:41 pm: Edit|
I'm supporting the cigar black market in Cuba as a way of undermining the failed and discredited economic system you mentioned. Also as a way of getting some very good smokes.
|By bluedog1 on Sunday, September 24, 2000 - 07:21 am: Edit|
I like to think of smoking Cuba cigars as "destroying the agricultural products of a Communist country". It makes it so much more American, so Republican :-0
|By JKK on Friday, September 22, 2000 - 02:48 pm: Edit|
"Loitering is the basis of all great civilizations."
Long live Boudu!
|By Lawnmower Man on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 12:44 pm: Edit|
Well then you're obviously a good patriotic all American boy and I'll make sure the Slick Willy hears all about you.
|By Tabreaux on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 12:17 pm: Edit|
No, you must be talking about Don. I don't smoke Che Guevarra specials. In fact, I don't smoke at all. Tobacco makes me crazy.
|By Lawnmower Man on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 11:03 am: Edit|
A very serious point, like if Bill Clinton looked out of the White House and saw all those overgrown lawns, well it would be a sure sign that the whole social order would have collapsed.
It would be enough for him to stop smoking his "All American Girl" brand of cigars (not like those nasty commie Cuban things that Ted smokes).
|By Chrysippvs on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 10:57 am: Edit|
"anatomanarchists would have complete control. "
|By Lawnmower Man on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 10:48 am: Edit|
Nobody keeps Lawnmower Man locked up for long when there's grass to be cut in the suburbs otherwise the anatomanarchists would have complete control.
(I think Anatomist1 was having the p--s taken out of him all along and couldn't see it.)
|By Chrysippvs on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 10:39 am: Edit|
I thought you got locked up in the computers...you should meet another lawn guy by the name of Carl Childers..
|By Lawnmower Man on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 10:30 am: Edit|
My advice to all of you is
Keep mowing yours lawns
|By rave on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 09:14 am: Edit|
Anatomist1 always has to have the last say, upper hand or whatever. For him it's a control issue. If he does not agree with the way someone feels or does, he spouts off a bunch of gibberish and insults. All and all, he tells us about his own faults. Main one being no respect for another persons opinion. No matter how skewed it may be.
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 08:43 am: Edit|
I think it would be a mistake to keep trying to make sense of Normal Person's position, as the argument has revealed that it is a well-worn, ill-defined set of thought formulas. He largely ignored the content of my last substantive post, continuing with the same lines on 'idle' thoughts and 'every one's entitled to their opinion' subjectivity without taking into account my counter-arguments.
Never mind, also, the fact that the one current contradicts the other. That is, if one opinion is as good as the next, then there are no grounds for mounting a Marxist critique of the idleness of others: doing so is irrelevant to the idlers, and therefore itself an idle activity.
Relativism, properly argued, is powerful position, but can easily lead to some thorny contradictions. More often it is used as cheap way to bail out of a losing argument, and those who employ it are not really willing to follow it to its conclusion.
You contend that philosophical thought is itself a type of action and also necessarily effects more obvious kinds of action. I concede that philosophy is an idle pusuit, in a sense, and yet maintain its value. Both positions are tenable, and the onus is on Normal Person to present a compelling account of idle vs. non-idle thought.
But, oh... I forgot. It's all subjective, and we are each entitled to our own respective opinions, so there is nothing to disagree about... How convenient.
|By Black Rabbit on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 07:02 am: Edit|
Normal Person, my point was that in general, actions spring from thoughts. The idea of idle thoughts is one I find hard to swallow. You can think a thought and reject it as incorrect 'Maybe I will set my hair on fire. Nah.' But each little calculation your brain makes affects, if not your next action, at least your next thought. So to me, thoughts are actions (in the sense that they have consequences.) They are harder to see, but just as you cannot see the engine that moves an automobile, still it wouldn't go without it.
"You are what you do when it counts."- The Masao
"It always counts." - Me
|By Anatomist1 on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 10:29 am: Edit|
Oh, I just have my servants mow it while my guests and I chat about the mind-body problem, eat caviar and write out checks to the Pinkerton Agency...
|By LordHobgoblin on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 10:14 am: Edit|
Interesting debate between Normal Person and Anatomist1. Although I have no wish to get involved in any similar debate it might interest some to know that Normal Person's last quote came from Marx's 11th Thesis on Feurbach.
Like Bob Chong I also mow my lawn
|By Normal Person on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 08:43 am: Edit|
I have no desire to be saved and if you wish to view my remarks as platitudes then that is your choice. However I also thank you for playing.
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 07:52 pm: Edit|
You obviously have either not read, or not understood, my last post. Regurgitating platitutes won't save you now. Thanks for playing...
|By Normal Person on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 02:38 pm: Edit|
"the philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point, however, is to change it"
|By Normal Person on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 01:52 pm: Edit|
You are indeed correct in pointing out my error of typing authoritive rather than authoritarian, a secretarial error indeed. The fact that you are an artist does not irritate me and I do not consider art to be an idle pursuit as art is by it's very nature productive. I am a materialist yes but not of the type that believes in the pursuit of money and possessions for their own sake, this is an assumption about me that you wrongly make. Material possessions are the direct result of human effort and labour and can be a force for the greater good if used and distributed correctly. In our current society this does not happen but this does not mean that it is the material goods themselves that are the cause of this.
Yes I do live in suburbia and pay a mortgage and mow my lawn, these are practical necessities as I don't want my house reposessed or my lawn overgrown. There is no shame in this.
Your perception and my perception of the world are different and are a result of our own experiences leading to our differing philosophies therefore it is all a matter of opinion and therefore neither philosophy can represent a truth. I must correct you and suggest you re-read my comments, I never said philosophy was a waste of time only idle philosophy. Only action can cause change things, thought alone cannot and therefore is an idle pursuit if not combined with action.
Anyway it is unlikely that we will agree, but I too am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours and I would defend your right to hold your opinion differing though it may be to mine.
|By Bob Chong on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 01:41 pm: Edit|
Not since Ginsburg have we seen lawn mowing get such a bad rap. I am about to mow my lawn today. It is sunny, 75 degrees, and pushing a mower around my gigantic yard is the some of the best exercise I do.
Just adding my own horseshit to the thread. ;-)
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 01:20 pm: Edit|
I was thinking about what it is about Normal Person that bugs me, aside from the emanation of hostility in my general direction. Doing what I do (art) and have done (philosophy), I run into this attitude frequently. As such 'Normal' is not an inaccurate moniker. The sentiment is most frequently expressed as "You have way too much time on your hands." Presently, we have accusations of idleness, or denigrations of the current dialogue as 'off-topic socio-political horeshit'.
I think the underlying presumption of such barbs is very sinister. It is the notion that economic activity is the sole purpose of life. If you're not making money, buying or fetishizing commodities, or engaging in approved peripherals (i.e. TV, movies), you must be wasting your time... being self-indulgent. It is the triumph of a soulless and truly cynical mentality. Blackrabbit sensed this and immediately rebelled. Normal Person countered by distinguishing idle philosophy from non-idle: a distinction without a difference. (When in doubt, obfuscate.)
I contend that philosophy is by its nature idle and inherently worthwhile. Action is action; thinking is thinking. Ironically, scientists whose specialized disciplines have long since divorced themselves from Philosophy -- of which they were once a part -- are now facing the same dilemma: How to convince the public of the value of pure research. The public wants direct, economically justifiable results. Philosophy is, or at least should be, the 'pure research' of human thought, and as such must be pursued with no mercenary or calculated ulterior agendas.
Unfortunately, philosophy as an academic pursuit has become the province of tedious nitpickers and irrelevant to almost everyone. Justifiable cynicism about various excesses at the universities easily festers into generalized anti-intellectualism. How is it that conversations about truth, beauty, and general human values are to be dismissed as 'horseshit', 'idle', and 'self-indulgent', and yet detailed discussions about the herbal content of $100 bottles of liquor and imported cigars is considered a serious use of one's time?
The jist of your last post, Normal Person, is that "it's all relative". THIS is horeshit. If subjectivity were such a tight straight-jacket, there would be no point in relating to any one in any way, ever. Subjectivity in all human endeavors is trivially true -- irrelevant to any particular discussion. The same goes for the charge of "self-indulgence". So is voting, paying your mortgage and mowing your lawn. So what?
BTW, it's 'authoritarian' not 'authoritative'. Look it up.
|By Normal Person on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 07:47 am: Edit|
I'm heartened to see that we at least have some common ground. Although it would seem that your perceptions of the world we live in are different to mine. I have not yet experienced having "normal people" scaring the piss out of me and until I experience this it would be an assumption (not a perception) on my part, (and indeed on your part) to believe that this will happen to me. I hold a positive view of humanity and do not assume that "suburban man/woman" is inherently evil and I believe he is no different than yourself, (except perhaps in choice of lifestyle) or any of the rest of us. I cannot assume that such people are mostly evil as I have not even met most of them. In fact my experiences of the such people (and most other people in fact) I have met up until now (and I am middle-aged) has been in the main quite positive (naturally there have been exceptions). I believe that you yourself are indeed guilty of assuming rather than perceiving, (as of course we all are).
If your "philosophy" is based on your perceptions and my "philosophy" is based on mine we could well end up with two opposing philosophies neither of which could then represent any important "truth" as in fact so called "philosophy" is no more than a sum total of a particular person's perception of their life experiences to date. In a wider context this is totally irrelevant (except to the individual) and as such is self-indulgent nonsense.
As for being "authoratitive" I have done no more than express my opinions and all I am guilty of is that my opinons do not coincide with the opinions of others in this forum. For that I make no apology as I do not see why I should be expected to conform to a particular norm.
I think Voltaire got it right.
"When he who hears and doesn't understand him who speaks, and when he who speaks doesn't understand what he means - that is philosophy" (Voltaire, Candide 1759)
All of us involved in this "socio-political horse-shit" are indeed guilty of this.
|By Marc on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 11:16 pm: Edit|
I enjoy the off-topic ramblings of fellow forumites. There are enough threads here that people are free to ignore ones they don't want to participate in. As I've said before, an absinthe forum should be freewheeling and provocative.
La Fee Verte should be a gathering place for philosophers, artists, drunks, housewives, scientists and auto mechanics. There is a certain snobbishness on the part of some folks who hang out here, but that's okay too. Those of us who gather here are absinthe drinkers or people who are curious about absinthe. Therefore, anything we talk about is on-topic because it is from the perspective of absinthianites (absinthe devotees),
it is seen through a glass greenly.
I saw a great new film, ALMOST FAMOUS. It's the first film about rock and roll to get it right.
I highly recommend it.
|By Anatomist1 on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 09:14 pm: Edit|
Wild at Heart is exactly what I was talking about. Lynch obviously has talent and imagination. What he lacks is someone to tell him "NO!". While WAH had its moments, I thought it was irredeemably weighed down with ridiculous little vignettes that were obviously just whatever popped into his head (i.e. Crispin with the cockroaches on his anus, Fenn digging her finger beneath her scalp, etc...). The supposed send-up of the Wizard of Oz was perfunctory and without purpose. I felt like Lynch was spitting on my mind... like he assumed that I was just some loyal subject that would kneel and bow to anything that came out of his ass. Yeah, but what did I REALLY think? The beginning and concept of Twin Peaks was very good, but the climax episode that he directed was even worse than WAH for the same reasons ennumerated above squared. I have boycotted his movies since...
Of course, Tarantino picked up the ball... and what a steaming ball of feces that was. You don't even want to get me started on him.
|By Anatomist1 on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 06:07 pm: Edit|
Oh, I don't think there's too much of anything on this forum... except maybe this indulgence/guilt cycle of people merrily joining the fracas and then turning around and reproaching themselves and everyone else for being off topic. It's not like we're hurting anyone, or crowding all the on-topic posts off the hard drive. What's wrong with everyone getting together to shoot their mouths off about whatever?
Speaking of idle philosophizing, I have a little book for you to read. It's called "The Authoritarian Personality" by Walter Benjamin and Theodore Adorno. There's a little quiz in there that I'm sure you'll score quite high on.
For the record, I am not an idle Philosopher. I quit academic philosophy at the B.A. level for more or less the reasons you stated. Now, I am an object and image maker, which at times is kind of a pursuit of philosophy by other means. Mostly, however, it is a lot of hard work. Have you ever tried fabricating steel for ten hours a day? In addition, I work 30+ hours a week, run, lift weights, and practice martial arts. And, as I understand it, Marc is the owner/operator of three busy nightclubs in NYC and a professional musician....
Like I said before, one day you should try perceiving instead of assuming, you might like it.
|By Normal Person on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 02:45 pm: Edit|
As a contributor of a fair amount of off topic socio-poitical horse-shit I agree with Tabreaux, there is far too much of it in this forum.
|By Tabreaux on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 02:19 pm: Edit|
I was only making a joke when I referred to the Salvation Army (an institution to which I contribute regularly). I don't need any criticism for having a sense of humor, which seems to be healthy in light of all this off-topic socio-political horse shit I keep reading on this forum. Pardon my candor.
As far as secondary effects of absinthe, alcohol affects people different, as does tobacco, as does coffee, as does a lot of things. No blanket statemtents can be made on this subject.
|By Chrysippvs on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:50 pm: Edit|
I have never claimed that there were no secondary effects to absinthe..I only stated that the constant dialogue about them is not onl borish but counter-productive. I am very much in the spirit of pushing the envelope of getting absinthe more than quasi-legal here, I would be willing to wager that if someone tried they would win but the legal battle would be costly, and the more secondary effects are the primary issue the less likely my battle will be.
The secondary effect discussion has just gotten boring and I think that is why many of the really venerable scholars of absinthe have left this forum more or less. I am in no way trying to limit speech on this forum, the the point has been beaten to death. I am much more interested in distallation methods, spoon dating, Glassware cataloging,history of the spanish distillers, did Debussy drink absinthe, etc....
I olny provide this forum with the information that I feel is accurate, things I have learned from Conrad III, Delahaye, Absintheur, Ted, old documents, archives, and lastly my own opinion based on those facts. Honestly I have done quite a bit of research on this hobby of mine, and I try my best to state the facts...
Just like my friend Pilate said..
|By Bob Chong on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:37 pm: Edit|
Wormwood is regulated by the FDA, not the DEA.
|By JKK on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:26 pm: Edit|
By the way, my favorite Lynch film is Eraserhead, which was shot in Beverly Hills (!), but based on Lynch's experiences in West Philadelphia. I grew up in Southern California and my parents are from Philly, but I'm sure I would have loved the movie even if I were from Alaska, (I've spent time there, too, actually.)
I just noticed I wrote "than" for "then" in my last post. Sorry that slipped through!
|By JKK on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:12 pm: Edit|
If the DEA is monitoring this forum they could have already shut it down for providing vendors' web-site addresses. I really doubt that they care to prosecute anyone as it would give publicity to a long-forgotten liqueur which has been tried by only a few hundred individuals--I'm guessing--in America. Anyway, there are worse things out there, (a poppy forum, for example, devoted to opiates.) As far as I can judge, absinthe's effect is similar to drinking espresso with your vodka. The major difference is the visual heightening. Heightening, not distortion.
And why this criticism of the Salvation Army? They and other missions have provided shelter for me when I was on the streets. I know for a fact that they also give shelter to illegal aliens, and help them to find work, and that their doors are closed to the police. I've had only positive experiences with them.
If we can't talk freely on this forum, than what is the point of having it? Worst of all is not that there are heavy limits--I could understand Kallisti saying something like "No drug talk, and no discussion of effects." The worst is the deliberate misinformation--a polite word--promulgated by Justin and others in an attempt to control our thinking. These strategies seem to be back-firing: I doubt that anyone on this forum believes that absinthe has no secondary effects or that we have no right to be interested in them. Also, people are beginning to be very sceptical about all the information supplied by the experts here. I'm not questioning anybody's credentials, but if you are going to come out with official-sounding pronouncements, then stand by what you say, and make sure that it's accurate to begin with.
|By Normal Person on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 10:28 am: Edit|
Black Rabbit, something to ponder on.
Vikings, philosophers or men of action?
From the 6th to the 10th century the Vikings laid waste to large parts of Britain and other Western European countries. They were indeed men of action and not the sort of people to engage in idle philosophic discussions, they had a philosophy and acted.
Throughout many parts of England in those time there was the anguished prayer "A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine" - "from the fury of the Northmen deliver us o Lord".
Also as the French monk Abbo at the time said - "The wild beasts go through the hills and fields killing babies, children, young men, old men, fathers, sons and mothers. They overthrow, they destroy, they ravage; sinister cohort, fatal phalynx, cruel host". Perhaps he may have been a little biased but since the Vikings, (unlike their Saxon, Roman and Celtic predecessors) did not believe in any rules of war (part of their philosophy) the monk may have had a point.
Certainly not the sort of people to invite round for a polite philosophical debate.
(what this entire discussion has got to do with Absinthe beats me and I'm going down to pour myself a nice glass of the Green Stuff)
|By Normal Person on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 08:24 am: Edit|
I never said philosophy was pointless, I said that idle philosophy is pointless.
Philosophy without action is an idle waste of time. Don't fool yourself, people who think and don't act are just as easy to control as people who don't think and furthermore they delude themselves into thinking that their own inaction is somehow more worthy than the inaction of others.
Philosophy without action has no more merit than the incoherant ramblings of a drunk. Western society is full of people who philosophise but don't act (every bar, coffee shop and University is full of such people) and don't kid yourself, we are and will remain controlled because of this. (It is no wonder that our Universities encourage the study of philosophy as an abstract academic subject.)
The only 2 honest options are to either accept the status quo as it is or act against it, thought alone changes nothing.
|By black_rabbit on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 07:56 am: Edit|
I am with Anatomist1, Socrates and Marc here- to be brought down is better than to live as a collaborator to oppression. Of course, better still to play one of the 47 Faithful Ronin and let them think what they would like to ;-)
Normal person said 'Idle pointless philosophising is a privilege of the bourgeois elite. '
I submit that there is no such thing as idle and pointless philosophising. From your philosophy, your world view, the logic you use to deal with sensory input, come your actions. You don't think a person's philosophy has a practical effect? Rather than go into too many examples here, I will just name names- the Navajo, the Vikings, the Americans, the Masai...
Philosophy should be taught the way they teach math. Everyone should know it. But it should be taught the way they teach martial arts as well- respect it as a powerful, dangerous tool.
The Man wants you to think of philosophy as a silly pointless thing, and accept the memes he hands you. If people don't think, they are much easier to keep a handle on.
|By Normal Person on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 02:56 am: Edit|
Just a little fun, no offence intended.
|By Marc on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:52 am: Edit|
Oh, I get it. You've created this "normal" personae for the internet. You're not really normal, you're actually hip, crazy, like cool man. Drink up brother, sorry for the misunderstanding. You almost had me there.
|By Normal Person on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:44 am: Edit|
In case you haven't noticed it is the weekend (and naturally you would expect me to work 9-5 Mon-Fri), and alas it is too wet to mow the lawn today, maybe next weekend.At least the rain means I won't have to wash my family estate car this weekend.
Anyway shouldn't you be off somewhere starting an anarchist revolution against the oppressive forces of The State, but maybe that would be too much like hard work?
(And yes I do like drinking absinthe as I didn't think that you had to be an anarchist to do so.)
|By Marc on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 01:18 am: Edit|
you're boring. What exactly are you doing in this forum? Slumming? Don't you have more important things to do, taxes to pay and a lawn to mow? Stop wasting time, get back to work.
|By Normal Person on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 12:49 am: Edit|
If your self-indulgent, paranoid, quasi-anarchistic philosphy makes life seem more interesting to you then who am I to tell you otherwise.
|By Marc on Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 12:08 am: Edit|
David Lynch followed Blue Velvet with Wild At Heart which is a great movie. His most recent film, Straight Story, is a beautifull movie, subdued and meditative.
|By Anatomist1 on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 08:18 pm: Edit|
Blue Velvet was definitely a good take on that idea. Too bad Lynch was consumed by self-indulgence and solipsism soon after... but, I digress.
I wonder about 'Leave it to Beaver'. Aside from the obvious double-entendres ("Ward, don't you think you've been awfully hard on the Beaver lately?"), there are way too many unanswered questions about THAT peachy little family. What was really going on between Wally and Eddie? Between Eddie and Mrs. Cleaver? And, does anyone know what Mr. Cleaver really did while he was away all day? AND, don't even get me started on that wrinkled old pervert "Gus" the "friendly" fireman and his peculiar affection for the Beave and his pals....
|By Marc on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 04:29 pm: Edit|
I'm reminded of David Lynch's Blue Velvet.
The surreal rot that festers in the dark corners of suburbia. It's the rejection of darkness that gives it power.
|By Anatomist1 on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 04:14 pm: Edit|
Dear Boring Person,
Oh, what a surprise you have in store! Perhaps some day you'll widen your perspective and start to actually perceive what's going on around you, instead of imposing your little assumptions on it. The things that are really going on behind the social masks of all those "normal" people are going to scare the piss out of you.
Oh, BTW nobody except fairy-tale Marxists talk about the "bourgeois elite" anymore. Welcome to the twenty-first century.
|By Chrysippvs on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 03:31 pm: Edit|
"Idle pointless philosophising is a privilege of the bourgeois elite."
If only that were true here....stupid middle class..
|By Marc on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 03:00 pm: Edit|
I feel sorry for you. What a dull life you must lead. You are difinitely in the wrong forum. Actually, I take that back. You could use a few glasses of absinthe.
|By Normal Person on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 02:49 pm: Edit|
Yes it's what 99% of the population experience every day, eating , drinking, sleeping, earning a living, paying taxes, rent/mortgages etc. etc. Idle pointless philosophising is a privilege of the bourgeois elite. Most of us have more productive things that we need to do.
|By Chrysippvs on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 10:58 am: Edit|
|By Normal Person on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 02:34 am: Edit|
For God's sake lighten up and join the real world!
|By Marc on Saturday, September 16, 2000 - 12:44 am: Edit|
I'm with you brother. At the point you fear the powers that be, they've won. They can jail my body, but they can never imprison my mind or soul.
|By Chrysippvs on Friday, September 15, 2000 - 09:50 pm: Edit|
I am glad youth never gave me such ideals...I am a stoic by philosophy..the ultimage machiavellian realists...we play the bereaucratic game, we avail, then we have ideals..
|By Anatomist1 on Friday, September 15, 2000 - 09:21 pm: Edit|
Yes, the DEA can do all those things and more. Imagine if your enemy were a Japanese feudal lord who employed ninja or a Commanche chief circa 1825. Your enemies could do much worse. The point is: fuck fear. There is a samurai poem that says "You must live each day as though you have already died." Or, there's an english poet who said something to the effect of "Upon my death, I would not want to discover I had not lived." Or, here's another, and perhaps the best one: Socrates. When commanded by the inquisitioning lords to admit his crimes and name names, Socrates had an interesting reply... He claimed that the board is incapable of harming him. Harm, he says, consists in becoming a worse person. The board can order him tortured or killed, but they cannot make him name names, they cannot make him participate in fascism: they cannot make him like them: it is beyond their power.
Let the bureaucrats skulk and spy on me. Perhaps one day they'll bring me down, but in the end, I'll be the one who lived an honest, straightforward life, who hurled my passions to the heavens... they'll still be weasely skulking bureaucrats. It is now, and shall forever be, beyond their power to make me live small, or be like them. The duration of life is finite, but the quality of life can be timeless. Today is a good day to die... or get busted.
|By Tabreaux on Friday, September 15, 2000 - 05:24 pm: Edit|
I think what he really meant was "snot-nosed debauchery". Not a bad accusation if I may say so.
I know people in the Salvation Army who monitor this board, so beware. They are hot for discarded old absinthe items, and they don't need a warrant either. Keep your doors locked.
|By Chrysippvs on Friday, September 15, 2000 - 05:03 pm: Edit|
"high-nosed snobbery" That is interesting..I actually live in the ghetto of Jackson to a family in the lower middle class...I give rides to a crackhead to the store that lives two houses down just about everyday....I am sorry you feel that way..high-nosed snobbery..this forum is great for anyone needing criticism.
"The DEA can kiss my ass"..and tap your phone, and monitor your life, and interrogate your children, and sieze your propetry, and enter without a warrant, and ban items on a whim, impose tons of import tariffs, and procescute ex nihilo..I know for a fact that this forum is monitored..I have friends up that way..
|By Anatomist1 on Friday, September 15, 2000 - 04:15 pm: Edit|
I agree with JKK, Justin. Your attempts at high-nosed snobbery would be more effective if you engaged the services of a proof-reader. Spelling is one thing, virtual indecipherability is another.
As for me, I will trumpet the delights of absinthe's glorious secondary effects from the rooftops. The DEA can kiss my ass. Modifying your behavior out of fear of possible future oppression only empowers your oppressor. You've done all their work for them. I say stand up straight, walk proud, speak as you please, and cower to no man. (But try not to let your nose drift too high.)
|By Chrysippvs on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 11:01 pm: Edit|
Not discussing the secondary affects so much so as letting them be the thing that makes absinthe absinthe. It seems as long as absinthe is known only for it's effects then it will soon enough be on the DEA's hitlist. I think of absinthe as this. A Pleasant and refreshing aperitif..nothing more nothing less. It is the Queen of pastis if done correctly and a mockery if done otherwise. The Secondary effects do nothing but call forth old propaganda that is nothing more than lies and assumptions and I have no desire to perpetuate that...
And as far as my native language being Engish..I was raised under the Aeneid and have seen Latin and Greek all my life and currently witht he decoding of the Voynich MS I spend more time reading and writing in Greek and Latin these days than I do in english by far..and as far as poetry..I have made a serious attempt at a poem in english in over 2 years...
Lingua Poetarum est latina et ne-alius..I think were the words of Seneca. Perhaps the young Rimbaud would have disagreed, yet what did he agree with I wonder...
As far as Conrad I speak to him from time to time. His interest in absinthe is a faint cry from what it was....although he knows quite a bit that was never put in that book...
|By arturo ui on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 10:47 pm: Edit|
jkk, you kill me
|By jkk on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 10:31 pm: Edit|
Not that I'm an expert, but there is absinthe and absinthe. If you have trouble feeling anything from the anemic stuff going around, try drinking it 2-3 days in a row. That helped me.
Are you hinting that Conrad is the lurker? If so, he must have had a hell of a proofreader. By the way, how are we cutting our own throats by discussing the secondary effects of absinthe? At least you admit that you are trying to limit our freedom of expression! Also for a poet you have a difficult time writing in your native language correctly. Perhaps Barnaby C. could lend you the services of his corrector.
|By Tabreaux on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 05:01 pm: Edit|
A few tidbits of info:
As Justin pointed out, absinthe was originally a medicinal product (albeit a palatable one). It wasn't until some 40 years after it was commercialized that it really caught on, and B. Conrad credits the returning soldiers as a major contributor to its rise in popularity.
If you tasted antique absinthe, you'd find it to be mostly dry, and very nicely but delicately herbal in texture. The sugar ritual evolved as a functional means of making the liqueur a bit sweeter, which gives a different 'tint' to the herbal texture, and takes the edge off of the bitterness. Nevertheless, the original drink is pleasant either with or without sugar. With modern products, the sugar ritual is purely 'ad decorum'. Nevertheless, the flavor was unique in its day, and was very likable with respect to the alternatives.
Absinthe was popular because it made a tasty, effective aperitif (quality stuff really stimulates the stomach), and its stout alcohol content made for a pleasant, conveniently quick 'drunk'. The ritual and accoutrement certainly contributed to the perceived elegance of the drink, which is why it made such a lasting impact on social trends.
|By blackjack on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 04:33 pm: Edit|
You'd be surprised the things people consume because they taste good. Hell, I smoke cigars, but occasionally enough to know I'm not addicted. The same goes for coffee, which I only enjoy if it's very good, very strong, and very sweet.
|By Bob Chong on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 04:04 pm: Edit|
Regarding coffee, I'd say that many people drink coffee for the taste. Real Kona coffee, Sumatran, and a couple others are my favorites (always black). The dreck that is sold pre-ground in steel cans is nothing in comparison. To call Folgers coffee is like calling Hills absinthe.
I often go days, weeks, or months without having coffee, so the "you only drink coffee because you're addicted to caffeine" suggestion is not necessarily valid (in my case).
Also, lots of people drink decaf (shudder). Ever taste the stuff? Terrible. Anyway, those poor souls must be drinking it for the taste, I guess.
You question people liking burnt flavors? I like slighly burnt toast, the carmelized flavor of mildly burnt potatoes, all manners of barbecue and charred meats, lapsang souchong tea (tea that has been smoke-cured by burning pine needles), smoked meats and fish, etc. I am sure others like some of these things, too.
|By Chrysippvs on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 02:54 pm: Edit|
Absinthe was first invented as a cure all, it was only popular after soldiers used it in the tropics for a cure for stomach aliments. The wormwood is thought/known to aid in stomach parasites and it also helped to stimulate the appetite. The soldiers brought it back. As far as the bitterness one would have to taste vintage absinthe to understand that the absinthe without sugar is only a dry very plesant bitterness and the sugar moves that flavor from the front the the middle of the taste range. I enjoy it with cold water often without sugar, although the sugar adds a certain perfection to the drink.
|By Anatomist1 on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 01:37 pm: Edit|
I'm not qualified to get embroiled in the historical details, but doesn't "the ritual" itself suggest that wormwood was included for intoxicant purposes? Why load your booze up with something bitter because it "tastes good", and then turn around and drip sugar in it to mask the bitterness?
Is coffee popular because people love that bitter burned bean flavor?
|By Chrysippvs on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 08:51 am: Edit|
"Sorry to disagree but..
Thujones are found if wormwood if you use wormwood to make your absinthe (no matter if it is steeped or distilled) it will have thujones in it."
This may be true I am just repeating what I have read in some old literature and from my talkins with M. Delahaye and Conrad III, who by the way lurks here from time to time. I am not sure the chemical acuteness of the fact or fiction of this statement so I will leave that where it belongs..to the chemists..
|By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 06:47 am: Edit|
"Considering how paranoid Rimbaud, Baudelaire and Verlaine were, I doubt that hash was their drug of choice."
Baudelaire was very ambivalent towards hashish and alcohol. His writings in 'Artificial Paradises' are some of the most poetic and evocative descriptions of the effects of hash that I have ever read, but his conclusion is given away by the book's title. On the other hand the alcohol chapter in the same book suggests that he wasn't much impressed by that either...
|By Mr. Wormwood on Thursday, September 14, 2000 - 05:09 am: Edit|
"It wasn't that they attributed the effects of absinthe to thujone, it was just thought is be a nasty byproduct found in
inferior absinthes. "
Sorry to disagree but..
Thujones are found if wormwood if you use wormwood to make your absinthe (no matter if it is steeped or distilled) it will have thujones in it.
As for what chemical(s) the effects, if any, come from I will leave that open for debate.
|By Chrysippvs on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 10:38 pm: Edit|
It wasn't that they attributed the effects of absinthe to thujone, it was just thought is be a nasty byproduct found in inferior absinthes.
As far as the paranoid Rimbaud, I don't feel that he was so at all. And he did in fact do quite a bit of Hashish and began to do opium in London by the docks from the chinese. He is said not to have liked Hashish due to the nature of his first experience (he was the sun chasing the moon for around 2 hours...) he did feel however that the "Voyant" could expand his Faustian knowledge of the universe though drugs...he later recanted and expressed deep regret in Une Saison en Enfer.
I am a classical poet so most drugs really hender me from writing in Dactlyic Greek Hexameter (already into the thrid section around 600th line thus far!)...
|By Bob Chong on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 10:22 pm: Edit|
FWIW, I have yet to feel anything extraordinary from drinking absinthe. That does not detract from its pleasure, in the least.
To me, each kind of drink has its own subtle effects. Beer, wine, and whiskey may all contain alcohol, but I find the buzz to be quite different from each other. Abisinthe works the same way for me, in that it has a subtle buzz all unto its own. I admit I am a novice to the stuff (but, FWIW, my credentials in mind-altering substances extend back a long way: did my undergrad at Tulane. Ted and Don, insert snicker here.)
|By Marc on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 09:13 pm: Edit|
Obviously thujone had some effect and they were aware of it back then or they wouldn't have labeled their bottles "sans thujone". As far as opium and hash go, they are not substitutes for absinthe...they impart a different high. One comes to absinthe for the absinthe experience.
Laying on your side nursing bowls of opium for several hours is different than sipping absinthe in a bar. Considering how paranoid Rimbaud, Baudelaire and Verlaine were, I doubt that hash was their drug of choice. An absinthe revery is quite different than the self-analytical aspect of a hash high. Most poets and artists prefer sedatives (like alcohol) to the heightened sensitivity of a THC high. I don't think that pot/hash are very useful creative tools. Most writers (including myself) avoid pot when writing. They do like to sip their booze though.
|By Chrysippvs on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 06:31 pm: Edit|
"People were getting high on absinthe, they liked it, they demanded it. "
I really don't think this point is valid. Absinthe was popular in France for two reasons: it was cheap, and it tasted good. The people wanting to get high could get opium, hashish, and ether at any location in the Latin Quater of Paris. The false notion that absinthe's effects were the cause of it's popularity and ban continue to give the "Absinthe is LSD/Pot" frame of mind that it really cutting our own throats.
Matter of fact most absinthe brands would even label there absinthe as "Sans Thuyone" after the 1880's. I know that Pernod Fils, Cousin (Blanc and verte), A Junod, and Fritz Duval all proclaimed their products of "Sans Thuone." I am not sure that the secondary affects of absinthe were even that discussed, and it never seemed to be indicated on either the Swiss ban or the French ban court proceding. This leads me to beleive that they could test for thujone some how or the other..perhaps when I visit some of the old distillerys in this Fall in France I can ask some more detailed questions...
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 05:02 pm: Edit|
I don't know if I buy the Absinthedrinker hypothesis. As far as the variability and taste-verification, that sounds plausible. But I think it's about as likely that wormwood was thought of as strictly a "flavoring agent" as the 70% alcohol was thought of as a "flavoring agent". People were getting high on absinthe, they liked it, they demanded it. Absinthe achieved cocktail hegemony. Just like how the original Coca Cola that had cocaine in it became so wildly popular. Was it because of it's wonderful taste? Ha!
Come to think of it, maybe if they put the coke back in coke, they wouldn't have to spend so much money on that annoying advertising...
|By Tabreaux on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 12:44 pm: Edit|
I can point out a few things here which may clarify things a bit:
(1) Mr. Wormwood didn't 'screw up', it's just that the setup used was not 'optimum' for the test, by no fault of his own. The setup specified by the 'approved' method is not something which is commonly used, and it costs to obtain the necessary equipment. He was gracious enough to make use of the GC setup he had available, and while the results were not perfect, they certainly were a step in the right direction. Like Mr. Wormwood already pointed out (which is apparent to me as well), while the thujone-positive results may not be accurate (e.g. Herbsaint), the possibility of a false negative is smaller.
(2) As Don pointed out, there is much more to this than measuring thujone content. Don and I have worked hard to create some clean herbal standards, and I will be resuming some very invasive testing soon. Part of this testing includes the identification of just what is obtained via the distillation of A. absinthium. I will compare the results of known standards with unknowns (e.g. current products). The truth will be revealed for better or for worse. Veritas.
(3) I am intimately familiar with the flavor imparted by the distillation of A. absinthium, and FWIW, I don't taste much of it (if any) in most modern commercial products. Could it be so well masked by overwhelming star anise content? At this point, who knows? Only the GC/MS will tell for certain. If anything, the upcoming test data will reaffirm the validity of honest products, and expose any charlatans who might relabel pastis as "absinthe".
|By Bob Chong on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 11:55 am: Edit|
If beer had been outlawed, we'd all be debating alpha acid contents in hops...how beers made with Galena have more of the secondary hops effect versus the lower alpha Saaz hops (and thus giving rise to a whole new round of Czech-bashing).
|By FrenchQuarter on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 11:31 am: Edit|
YES! There was a whole big argument about that a few months ago. Read the "Hegemony of Thujone" thread for lots on that topic.
|By Absinthedrinker on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 10:46 am: Edit|
I'm sticking my neck out here, and no doubt TB and DW will administer a corrective tap if it is needed, but was thujone content ever a goal or even an issue with the original absinthes (apart from with the prohibition lobby)? If wormwood was a flavouring agent for absinthe as hops are to beer, surely, in the absence of sophisticated analytical methods, the quality of the herb was based on organoleptic tests as well as knowledge of its source. The distiller would have accepted a batch based on overall quality and the thujone content would have been incidental (although related to the freshness of the sample). My point is that different batches of the same Belle Époque absinthe as well as batches from different suppliers could have had widely different amounts of thujone. Just as Mme Delahaye said that the two batches of La Fée so far produced had different thujone contents but this was considered incidental as long as it met current EU regulations.
Just a thought
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, September 13, 2000 - 08:01 am: Edit|
I don't think I was exactly ridiculing the test. Rather, by pointing out the study's most suspicious result, I was calling the veracity of the test results into question. You have provided further grounds for doubt. In fact, you're implying the Mr. Wormwood 'screwed up', whereas I simply doubted the results, since one in particular seemed so improbable.
I think the test was interesting to see: definitely more interesting than no tests. The question now vis a vis the prior discussion on this thread is:
Assuming that at least the negative results are valid, which version of Mari Mayans tested wormwood free? (I had heard that the 45% version in particular was widely deemed to be pretty lame before the test.)
Of course, as Mr. W says, if you like it, drink it, who cares if it has wormwood in it? This seems sensible for civilized fellows. However, some of us are craven enough to actually be seeking a peculiar breed of intoxication from this green stuff. If it's not just wormwood, but a mixture of other herbs as well that cause it, this too should be analyzable, if anyone can afford to do it.
|By Don Walsh on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 09:07 pm: Edit|
Not all gas chromatographs are created equal, and that goes for gc columns as well. The 'official' (UK) procedure is quite specific about column type. And many other conditions. All in all this is a very difficult analytical tool, esp when analyzing complex mixtures.
In the case of anything containing absinthium oil, thujone is in there along with larger amounts of thujyl alcohol and thujyl acetate, plus half a dozen closely related terpenes. Thujone itself exists as two (interconvertible) isomers which show different peaks.
In other words this is easy to screw up, depending on a lot of different things. I would consel you people not to ridicule anyone's efforts unless you are willing to spend the time and MONEY to do it yourself (fat chance!) and show you can do better.
|By Mr. Wormwood on Tuesday, September 12, 2000 - 10:53 am: Edit|
As to my testing of absinthe for thujones. False positive results could have been reported. Some other compound in the Herbsaint could have tricked my GC into calibrating it as thujone.
I stand by my negitive results, if I could not find any thujone, I am 99.99% sure that there was none in that absinthe.
But who cares, if it tastes good drink it.
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 03:48 pm: Edit|
Ok. I just looked at my bottle again, and I have the 70% variety NOT the 55%. As to which is best, or whether it's full of wormwood, I don't know.
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 03:45 pm: Edit|
Wasn't that the same test that revealed HerbSaint to have three times the European limit of thujone?
|By Marc on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 02:49 pm: Edit|
Mr. Wormwood tested Mari Mayans for thujone content and found that there was none.
|By Marcellin on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 02:20 pm: Edit|
So, which is better? Is it the....
Original 45% alc.
New 55% alc.
Collectors 70% alc.
Also, does anyone know what are the various wormwood amounts for each?
|By simonsuisse on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 11:26 am: Edit|
I have also just tried the Mari Mayans 55% and found the bottling to be the same as the70%, but the label is a different colour and the absinthe is slighly more green. Definetly very good.
|By rockstar on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 11:21 am: Edit|
Just tried the 55% mari mayans - loved the taste and remembered what happened the day after - but -
is that good
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 09:29 am: Edit|
I am part way through a bottle of MM collectors ed., which is what you're talking about. A strangely shaped clear bottle: .7L, 55% alcohol. I read somewhere that the other version isn't as good. I like the stuff OK. Similar to Deva, with a more bitter edge... more wormwood, possibly.
I don't know how much you are prepared to pay for it, but I got mine for about $15 plus shipping from Spirit's Corner.
|By Absinthedrinker on Monday, September 11, 2000 - 07:03 am: Edit|
Has anyone tried the latest Mari Mayans that James is selling? I thought that it was the 'original' MM at first, but that was 45% and came in one litre bottles as I recall.
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