Redactions, Corrections, and Peculiar Assumptions

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archives Thru July 2001: Topics Archived Thru Oct 2000:Redactions, Corrections, and Peculiar Assumptions
By Thegreenimp on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 11:17 pm: Edit

I think some enterprising La Blue importer is missing a real opportunity, they should put Marc in a goat suit cavorting with the Swiss maidens, on their label.....think how that would look on the buyer guide.
Regards
Jay

By Anatomist1 on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Well, I thought Marc's post was absolutely hilarious. Plus, it forced you guys to put up pictures, which were really something to see.

My understanding, as far a pissing contest strategy goes, is that you have to wait until you need to go real bad, and then squeeze your member really hard to increase the exit velocity. Of course, Marc may have difficulty with this, due to his enormous size, and the constant distraction of Swiss nymphs galavanting about...

Now, come on you guys: 2.5 months 'till the end of the year. Bring on the absinthe!

K.

By Marc on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 07:29 pm: Edit

Don,

I am pleased that you finally came around to appreciating who I really am. "Mr. Cool, Mr. Withit". I may use that as the title of my next album.

BTW, I have alot of opinions I stand by. I just don't like repeating myself. It's also seems like a waste of time to sustain a hostile feeling toward people who I enjoy shooting the shit with.
And that includes you.

The pissing contests get a little bit boring.
But, I agree that I probably should stick to my own areas of expertise: literature, movies, and music.
I'll see you in the forums when those topics arise.

My favorite Milius movie is the existential surfing flick THE BIG WEDNESDAY. I hated RED DAWN, right wing hokum.

As I have said before, I enjoy the taste, history and culture of absinthe. The science and commerce of absinthe make my eyes glaze over (along with other things).

Artemis,

your new profile is a real hoot.

By Marc on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Don,

I am pleased that you finally came around to appreciating who I really am. "Mr. Cool, Mr. Withit". I may use that as the title of my next album.

BTW, I have alot of opinions I stand by. I just don't like repeating myself. It's also seems like a waste of time to sustain a hostile feeling toward people who I enjoy shooting the shit with.
And that includes you.

The pissing contests get a little bit boring.
But, I agree that I probably should stick to my own areas of expertise: literature, movies, and music.
I'll see you in the forums when those topics arise.

My favorite Milius movie is the existential surfing flick THE BIG WEDNESDAY. I hated RED DAWN, right wing hokum.

As I have said before, I enjoy the taste, history and culture of absinthe. The science and commerce of absinthe make my eyes glaze over (along with other things).

Artemis,

your new profile is a real hoot.

By Thegreenimp on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 05:55 pm: Edit

Don,
Amazing what a small world the net makes.
Back then, when the person told me about bringing the absinthe in, I was with a group of people that likely you knew. It was a funny story, seems he wrappped the bottles in his bag of laundry to be cleaned, and opened a jar of marmalade over some of the shorts, then when the customs inspector reached in while being told it was dirty laundry.....His hand felt the marmalade, and he made a quick exit of the bag.
It was quite an interesting conversation that evening.
Regards
Jay

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 03:49 pm: Edit

The dinner is a distinct possibility, I seem to remember going to a Mexican restaurant with Fred and a bunch of his friends. As to Spain/absinthe, no, sorry, that wasn't me. I've never set foot in Spain, although I did represent their military industries (Santa Barbara Arsenal) in Thailand for a while, Cetme rifles, Spanish MG-3's etc.

Mostly in those days I was an up and coming sound suppressor designer/manufacturer (LARAND). Which is how Fred and I knew each other, he still had his Anubis Ltd. arms company going. He bought several cans from me. A High Standard HDM .22 and a M-3A1 Greasegun I can recall.

By Thegreenimp on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Don,
It was about that time frame when I met Fred, you are definately right about him being a great racounteur.....I used to die laughing at his stories. You didn't happen to tell a nineteen year old kid about bring some absinthe in from Spain, in a laundry bag....back about 25 years ago, during dinner with some militaria collectors?
Jay

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Dear Jay

I was in Nawlins, and used to get over to Houston from time to time for the HGS and SHOT and NSGA etc. Stayed at Fred's place one time (obviously before he and Linda moved to Hollyweed.

Yes Fred was/is always a great raconteur. Quite a few of the best lines/riffs in Apolcalypse Now were his, Milius just picked them up.

I dunno how to find him except at Valkyrie Productions, which is Milius' company. If you hear from him, Tell him Walsh is alive and well in Bangkok making absinthe. I'm sure he will be amused. He and I go back about 25 years.

By Thegreenimp on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 02:51 pm: Edit

That should have been cartoons, on that last post.

By Thegreenimp on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 02:49 pm: Edit

Don,
Fred told some of the funniest stories, I've ever heard.....Did you spend much time in Houston?
Somewhere I still have an ancient copy of Dead or Alive, Fred's carttons were a hoot.
We may have met ages ago.
Regards
Jay

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 02:07 pm: Edit

I don't mind being compared to Milius, I love his films. An old pal works or
worked for him: Fred Rexer. Was tech advisor on The Wind and the Lion, Conan
(both), Apocalypse Now, Red Dawn.

The main difference between us apart from bank accounts, is that I haven't replaced my nose with a WetnDry ShopVac.

But give him his due: like sex and cognac, Milius when he is good is wonderful and when he is bad, he's still pretty good.

By Marc on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Don,

Is that really you or John Milius?

Finally, the big man in the flesh.

I better stop messing with you. You look like you could definitely take me in a steel cage match.

The point of my post, and I was a little ripped when I wrote it, is that on the internet, where faces and eyes are unseen, the bullshit factor can get very high.

True to my chameleon form, I don't really doubt
you guys are who you say you are. There's way too much knowledge and intelligence in these posts for them to have been written by frauds. The only thing we have to go on in this forum is trust.

By Tabreaux on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 10:24 am: Edit

I think we'll leave my aesthetics a mystery for now. I prefer to leave Marc in suspense. At ths point, he seems to be having a difficult time resolving the issue of whether I am a 'nerdy' type or a 'Val Kilmer-esque' object of homosexual desire.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 10:00 am: Edit

No, THAT's me, the other is cousin Radomil.

Now your turn, Ted, it's your pic, you do the honors.

By Tabreaux on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:56 am: Edit

Don's photo is actually a goof on Radomil Hill's (of Hill's Absinth) publicity photo.

Hill.jpg

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:47 am: Edit

That's really not me, that's my much handsomer cousin Radomil in Transylvania.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:42 am: Edit

Sorry, I have two arms. Will one eye do?

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:40 am: Edit

c:/win95/desktop/desktop2/radomildon2.jpg

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:21 am: Edit

Well, image upload seems to have failed. Anyone care to advise? This is IE 4 I am using and it is supposed to work. Oh, well.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:12 am: Edit

\image

By Artemis on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:12 am: Edit

Marc inquired:

"I have heard that there are people who create alternate personalites for themselves on the internet. It's a Walter Mitty thing. Pencil pushing, mouth-breathing nerds who manufacture exotic alter egos. They become masters of their own little cyber realm. Are any of you
suffering from this kind of weird split personality? How are we to know that any one of you is telling the truth?"

GUILTY! My true personality could not be more at odds with my fake one. In the interest of coming clean, I have updated my profile. I feel so much better now.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:09 am: Edit

So, as to not living in Bangkok, I await your call.
As to being 19 here is a photo taken by Ted while visiting my house a few weeks ago. You are off by 30 years.
As to arms dealing (not gun running) I had licenses) you can look up the article Jack Anderson ran about me nationally in 1983. Or the documentary on CNN in 1985. Or the article on me in Soldier of Fortune in 1982. Or my own articles, just go to Lexus and search on Don Walsh.
Dunno why you decided I am a pimp. I wouldn't advise saying that to my face.
Patent numbers and chemical lit.references on request.
/image

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 08:46 am: Edit

Correction, Marc. You are right about me being overweight.

All else is horseshit, and petty animus to boot. Deal with the issues, Marc, or take the ad hominum stuff elsewhere.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 08:25 am: Edit

Now that I have provided the Forum with the means at hand to demonstrate that Marc is wrong I will now assert that marc is wrong headed.

Marc, why just pule and complain that we are bringing you down? Why not address the issues? Why just stir the shit? That's all you are doing here?

Better go back to your bootless music thread and consort with your own kind. Mr Cool, Mr Withit, Mr never had an opinion he thought was worth standing by for more than 2 posts, esp if the going gets tough. Marc the chameleon, which from where I stand is just another small reptile, descended of dinosaurs.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 08:05 am: Edit

Dear Marc

Wrong on every count. I hope you are better at running bars than reading people. If you don't think I live in Thailand pls dial whatever your international access code is (011?) then 662 690 0266 and ask for Don.

66 is Thailand

2 is Bangkok.

690 0266 is one of my three phone lines.

Pls note that there is 13 hours time difference, if you call me in the middle of the night and wake up my household I get feisty.

As to the rest it is largely public redord, if you wish my patent numbers and literature references and so on I can provide. Not bluffing.

Wrong about sexual orientation too, big fella.

By Marc on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 04:17 am: Edit

I have heard that there are people who create alternate personalites for themselves on the internet. It's a Walter Mitty thing. Pencil pushing, mouth-breathing nerds who manufacture exotic
alter egos. They become masters of their own little cyber realm. Are any of you suffering from this kind of weird split personality? How are we to know that any one of you is telling the truth?
Absintheur, Don and Ted could all be the projections of a handful of brilliant lost souls
who have no lives other than those concocted for the internet. I don't believe any of you are who you claim to be. Any genuine absinthe devotee couldn't possibly waste so much of their time on such pettiness as is displayed in this thread.
You brilliant nerds are squeezing out the romance that is associated with a wonderful beverage.
You are attempting to reduce magic to mathematics.
There is no equation for ecstasy. You mofos are squeezing the romance out of the absinthe culture.
And Don I fully expect a volley of invective spewed from you in my direction. But, I could care less. My gut tells me that you don't live in Thailand, that you've never smoked a Cuban cigar,
never been a pimp or gun runner. You are actually 19 years old and live in Des Moines. You're well-read and extremely overweight. You've never been laid. You have a homosexual fixation on Ted, who you have never met but imagine looks like Val Kilmer.

By Marc on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 03:45 am: Edit

This bullshit is so discouraging.
McCarthyism, cult of personality, cheap Hollywood maneuvers, annointed apologist,on and on and on...

You guys are suffering from some serious delusions of grandeur. It's comical. And entertaining. Unfortunately, it's also very, very
ordinary.

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 12:25 am: Edit

I seem to recall that you used to work for the former importer of Versinthe. My source: you.

By Absintheur on Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 12:07 am: Edit

"Would you please fully disclose to the Forum your involvement with Versinthe? Past and present?"

Yes. Absolutely.

I've tasted Versinthe precisely one time, in 1998, in the Novotel bar in Aix en Provence. I don't even recall whether it was sweetened or not.

I do not own a single bottle of the product, as I didn't see a sealed one on that trip. I do own a lovely full color brochure that I picked up from aforesaid bar.

I have since twice contacted Conquistador Importers in Burlingame, California, who are importing Versinthe.

And, for the record, making reference to undisclosed data is a cheap Hollywood trick, making reference to McCarthyism is allusion to parallel structure. I say that as a card carrying representative of cheap Hollywood.

By Tabreaux on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Yes Bob, I am glad you understand. I'd rather wait and have some indisputable figures than be premature and compromise credibility.

As far as the 'emperor's clothes', we'll find out if what we've been assuming about some of these products is real or bupka. Notice that I used the word "we", as many of the things that you've all assumed, I've assumed as well. Now however, I am casting some doubts, and doing so openly. As you all know, many of the things we've assumed about these products are things you can't see or quantify via the senses. I just want to know what's real and what isn't. Maybe it's all real, maybe it's all bull, maybe somewhere in betwen. Let the chips fall where they may.

As far as Absintheur's response, for the record, I don't feel offended by it. He's made his conclusions based upon the information he had available and his own perception. Although I am resolutely doubting the integrity of some of that information, I am not doubting his integrity or his ability to offer an objective opinion. Someone's interpretation is only as good as the sources of information he used to make his intpretation. Unfortunately, you can't take any info at face value where matters absinthe are concerned. Regardless, no one likes to find what they've been told or what they've assumed has been incorrect, misleading or otherwise distorted. We just have to remember that the information and observations we discuss here are exactly that, and not a reflection of our integrity or a lack thereof.

By Bob_chong on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Thanks Ted & Don. I figured there were reasons both in the interest of research and business. I empathize with the research aspect (I am a researcher in the social sciences), so Ted not wanting to release the findings until they are air-tight makes perfect sense. I mean, I'm not about to publicize my dissertation findings before I defend the findings to my committee and they start calling me "Dr." I'd expect nothing less from researchers in other fields.

As for the business side, I understand that strategic intelligence (as we call it in the info. sciences field) is one of your venture's biggest competitive advantages. From the sounds of it, the data will be shouting that the emperor wears no clothes (and hopefully, the data and intorduction of your new product will force the competition to spend some time at the haberdashery, so to speak). I look forward to reading the unconventionally presented data.


FWIW, I did say that no one owes me or the other forumites any answers or explanations. Given that, I appreciate the feedback greatly.

BC

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 12:39 pm: Edit

I too would prefer to be graceful and gracious...but when characterized as a
Joe McCarthy type (and inaccurately) I feel justified in getting my back up
a little. I'd prefer that someone just use the F-word, and give me the finger.

I am not clutching any phony documentation. Ted visited me recently (as
posted on the Forum on the time) and brought his documentation with him. As
we are both chemists I am competent to judge what he presented to me. I do
so. It is real. What does that have to do with discredited muckraking
demagogues forty someodd years in their grave?

For those 4.5 decades all conservatives have been tarred with the same McCarthyite
brush. The good and the bad. It's the cheapest tactic in the Left's arsenal.

Absintheur knows that.

Yet he goes straight to the forensic equivalent of the groin kick.

Well, kick blocked, and scimitar in hand. I expect better tactics in future
from Absintheur.

By Tabreaux on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 12:16 pm: Edit

Bob, about the data......


I will release some very informative data when I am convinced that it is 'air-tight'. I will release it in an unconventional manner. It'll be worth the wait.

By Tabreaux on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 12:14 pm: Edit

I want to make clear that I am not into any cult of personality whatsoever. Neither did I intend to offend anyone by offering my comments. What I attempted to do is offer suggestions which rightfully question some of the garbage being told about some of these products through the ignorance of the distributors. As far as the reviews go, I feel it prudent to offer my comments, as I disagree with some of the assumptions made in the original reviews, some of which are certainly incorrect. I attempted (and still do) to do this gracefully, and respectfully.

To make a few points:

(1) M. Mayans is not colored 'naturally' (e.g. using natural chlorophyll from whole herbs). When compared to products of equal strength and colored to a similar opacity via natural means, the M. Mayans simply does not fade as does natural chlorophyll. I made this point only because the ad copy is erroneous, as is the presumption in the review. If there was no implication that it was naturally colored, then I never would have mentioned it. FWIW, most absinthe products which contain obvious artificial color have no reference to this on the label, regardless of the origin. Therefore, the absence of said information reveals nothing. There was no rhetorical trap intended.

(2) Lasala is not left uncolored. When herbs are distilled in alcohol, the distillate is clear (e.g. La Bleue). Lasala is not clear, not even close to it. If Lasala is intentionally uncolored, it indicates that the product is indeed macerated with essences derived from steam distillation (which will contain color). Personally, I believe this is partially true, but it looks to me like it is artificially colored, possibly with caramel.

(3) No one is suggesting that Mr. Segarra is lying about his product. What I can tell you however, is I do in fact have a 5kg bag of what is positively Artemisia pontica right here, and the distinct peculiar flavor of that herb is completely absent in Segarra. I'm pretty certain that know the particular herbs which gives Segarra it's bitterness, but I didn't specify them, nor did I even mention that I knew what they were (out of respect for the confidentiality of Mr. Segarra's product). Like you mentioned, if someone offers that a product is flavored with 'petite wormwood' or possibly even 'roman wormwood' under no circumstances can it be assumed that it is A. pontica. IMO, this is a prime example.

(4) I didn't say that Segarra contains no star anise. In fact, I am quite certain that it does. It is the careful use of the herb which makes this product *better* than regular pastis, and pastis-like 'absinthes' (IMO anyway).

(5) As far as being able to taste absinthium, in each case I specifically mentioned that because I can't taste it, doesn't mean that it isn't there. I do know from experience (lots of it) that if it is present in nominal concentrations, regardless of what else is present, I can usually pick it out. This is all preliminary and in fun however, as the GC will soon tell the tale of what contains how much of what.


(6) We don't share viewpoints on the classic vs. modern theme. Since classic absinthe came first, I prefer to compare the modern products against the originals. Therefore I don't find classic absinthe to be 'thin'. To the contrary, I find that modern 'absinthes' tend to be overpowering and pastis-like in comparison. As far as the three or four who've tasted classic absinthe, it is purely a disappointment that everyone can't have that opportunity. But then again, this obvious firewall was the inspiration for my current project.

Finally, like I've said, the overall theme of my comments was to invite thinking 'outside of the box'. What is the box? The box is that intangible container built of assumptions and 'facts' which has been created amongst ourselves through wishful thinking, distributor claims, and the assumptions that what we have been told about these products are bonafied facts. If I find beyond a reasonable doubt that any of my pointed opinions are incorrect, I'll eat them.

Veritas.

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:51 am: Edit

Ted's data is Ted's data and paid for by him and no one else. It is proprietary. Why should he give aid and comfort to any competitor? He has stepped across the line and is no longer a Talking Head, he is a businessman as I am. He is also a lover of absinthe, as I am. These interests are NOT mutually exclusive.

But Bob, you are right about the explosive nature. 'The Truth Is Out There' and when the time is right...

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:46 am: Edit

Absintheur, Ted and I have come under a lot of attack, as soon as we went 'commercial' some people have assumed that anything and everything either one of us says is a) coordinated and b) just a disguised advert, or propaganda.

I hate that.

What I hate more is when someone who has (present or recent) commercial ties keeps them sub rosa and nevertheless purports to be an independent and disinterested Authority.

Would you please fully disclose to the Forum your involvement with Versinthe? Past and present?

As this may be relevant to your fondness for the 'complexity' of pastis...

How 'bout that 'secret' artemisia? Isn't that just another list of 1432 members of the Communit Party someone is keeping in their vest pocket?

FWIIW I take no pleasure in disputing with you. I can think of no one on the Forum I would care to dispute with less. Just don't pee on my back and tell me it's raining, or raise old Tail Gunner Joe from the dead and shout Boo! at me. I won't be banished or exorcized so easily.

By Bob_chong on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:37 am: Edit

What are reasons for not releasing the data? I understand it must've been expensive and time consuming to run the various tests, and I know that no one owes me (or the folks here) any explanations or answers. I'm just curious. The data that came out in June from Mr. Wormwood were interesting, and I have been excited by the prospect of new data which refute or confirm Wormwood's findings. If/when the data are released, imagine the explosion of discussions here. A very cool prospect, IMO.

BC

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:26 am: Edit

Whoops, that should read '19th Centiry absinthe' not 'pastis'.

Sorry. My ISP drops out a lot and I try to write as fast as I can...

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:24 am: Edit

Also your argument, Absintheur, that 90% of 19th century pastis were inferior to pastis/modern absinthes, is plausible but impossible to prove. Anyway it is essentially a restatement of Sturgeon's Law (General Version). 90% of everything is crap.

But you beg the question. We aren't concerned with the bottom 90%, and why should we be? We are concerned with the top 5%.

Like Willie Sutton said...that's where the money is.

Also the flavor, and the glory.

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:11 am: Edit

Absintheur, I am addressing not only your immediate post but also several along same lines from you.

Pastis may have evolved into 'a very rich product' but if it has I haven't seen it. Not Ricard, not Herbsaint pastis, not Pernod pastis.

Here is text of my append to my post which I wrote before seeing your commentary:


Absintheur, you also previously posted that you hadn't tasted enough
E.Pernod to have a viable opinion. Clearly, the two posts are inconsistent.
Suddenly you and your putative three friends have an opinion.

Your argument re artificial color is a selective and rhetorical one. You
know perfectly well what Ted means by 'natural color': chlorophyllic
coloration by the traditional herbal coloring step. La Fee isn't colored
that way. It is colored by the substances named on the label. Synthetic
dyestuffs.

Arguing from the EU definition of 'artificial color' is an artifice. I don't
care what the EU says. That the GB people are hiding behind a EU legalism,
does not lessen their lie. It compounds it. It removes it from status of an
error and elevates it to that of a conspiracy.

The broad base of absinthe recipes, formulas and processes you point to is a
smoke screen to make everything and nothing plausible at the same time. Yes
there were many crap absinthes with crap artificial and often toxic color.
But yes also there were a few premium absinthes with totally traditional
herbal chlorophyllic coloration. Which ought we to aspire to? The ones with
the antimony louche and the Paris green arsenical color? The aniline dyes?
Your pastis making pals have a LOT more in common with those poisoners of
the past than with the premium products. I'd rather take tea with the
Borgias. It's a gentler death.

The fact that the EU tolerates those coded cryptic dyes on the La Fee Label,
means little. I remember when Red Dye #3 was legit in US and then one day it
wasn't. Because It Was bad for Us. Which means the FDA and its EU
equivalents aren't infallible. What do they say to a public when they admit
that a dye they have approved for decades turns out to be carcinogenic,
teratogenic, etc? OOPS?

Last I looked chlorophyll is pretty safe...

As it is also traditional I'll take my chances with chlotophyll.

Why are you suddenly self annointed apologist for the fake and the artificial?

-----------

BTW don't accuse me (or Ted) of being a McCarthyite, that's a cheap Hollywood manuever, and electing it makes you a cheap Hollywood sort. It's beneath you. Those papers in Ted's fist may not be a laundry list, or a tabula rasa. If and when he releases that data -- you stand to play the fool. Don't be a chump. This isn't a bluff.

By Absintheur on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 11:01 am: Edit

"Absintheur, you have made it clear for some time that you are 'uncomfortable' with the entire basis of Ted's work and mine. You are entitled to your discomfort; it is after all an opinion, and as they say everyone's got them."

I wasn't addressing your work in the slightest. I'm totally supportive of the roll-out of your product -- this was solely a reply to Ted's criticism of my reviews. I honestly don't understand how you could have gotten the notion that this spoke in anyway to the quality of your product.

"Obviously we disagree. You say E.Pernod and Pernod Fils taste like a thin modern absinthe, we say otherwise."

Fair enough.

"You have previously argued that pastis may be what absinthe would have evolved into anyway, had the ban not occured, and now you argue that even the worst pastis is 'more complex' than any absinthe."

Not "any absinthe," far from it, in fact what I said was that pastis, which has evolved into a very rich drink, was more complex that 90% of absinthes -- this is true of absinthe today, just as it was true at the turn of the century when expectations were markedly lower.

"I think it is a shame that rather than creating, you seem to see your role these days as a blocking one. I have always respected your opinions but, lately you have chosen just to negate and not to educate."

Once again, the post below was solely a response to Ted's rather direct criticisms of my reviews. I really don't see how it reflects on your product in any way?

"I have seen the real evidence Ted has to back up his 'nose' and that evidence is not disputable, unless you have a $20,000 GC and know how to use it."

Ok, Don, enough with the "I have papers pointing to ten communists within this administration" tact. If you've got data, publish it or drop all reference to it. Ted did not site it in his criticism, in fact, there hasn't been one iota of hard data to come out of these claims. When there is, we'll discuss it. Until then, any reference to it is intensely suspect bullying.

"I prefer the Absintheur of old. Ted's not into any cult of personality. Or any other sort of cult. That's a cheap shot, and you shouldn't demean yourself by being a cheap shot artist. I'm sure that was not your intention."

Read it again. The cult of personality in question was the plurality of "classic absinthe drinkers," meaning myself, Justin, and Ted. Once again, the below post is very difficult to take as a criticism of your product in any regard, I'm more than a little mystified by your response.

By Don_walsh on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 10:21 am: Edit

Absintheur, you have made it clear for some time that you are 'uncomfortable' with the entire basis of Ted's work and mine. You are entitled to your discomfort; it is after all an opinion, and as they say everyone's got them.

Obviously we disagree. You say E.Pernod and Pernod Fils taste like a thin modern absinthe, we say otherwise.

You have previously argued that pastis may be what absinthe would have evolved into anyway, had the ban not occured, and now you argue that even the worst pastis is 'more complex' than any absinthe. I have a couple bottles of Prado, one of Ricard and two of Herbsaint to say you are in error. While some pastis can be fun to drink they remain...pastis. Pastis means fake. And that's what they are, fake absinthes. All the shyster products like Karmann, Trenet, Absente, and yes Versinthe, are phony as a $3 bill.

I think it is a shame that rather than creating, you seem to see your role these days as a blocking one. I have always respected your opinions but, lately you have chosen just to negate and not to educate. I have seen the real evidence Ted has to back up his 'nose' and that evidence is not disputable, unless you have a $20,000 GC and know how to use it.

I prefer the Absintheur of old. Ted's not into any cult of personality. Or any other sort of cult. That's a cheap shot, and you shouldn't demean yourself by being a cheap shot artist. I'm sure that was not your intention.

By Absintheur on Saturday, October 14, 2000 - 09:21 am: Edit

This is going to be the longest post I've written in some time, as such, I want to start by greeting all of the newer members of the board. Hi there.

Now, to dive in.

To begin with, Ted, I encourage you to write complete reviews of each of the products you've tasted. I can virtually guarentee that they will be added to the review board, as Kallisti is excellent about giving equal time to contradictory opinions about specific products; but please do not redact my reviews, with the express intent of having them changed, without consulting me directly.

This is doubly true in those cases in which you are mistaken.

To start small:

"Having worked extensively with natural coloring, I can find nothing natural or convincing about the color of this product. This product is not colored naturally, yet neither is Montana, La Sala, Serpis, Herring, so on, and so forth. This should come as no big shock, I have yet to see a commercial product that appears to have anything resembling natural coloring."

You're creating an unfair rhetorical trap here.

First and foremost, there is no "artificial coloring" in Mari Mayans, as within the EU "artificial coloring" connotes a specific list of synthetics that must be clearly addressed on the labeling. Given that Mari Mayans both claims to contain no "artificial coloring" and is not labeled with the appropriate coloring information when exported to the UK, I was inclined to take them at their word.

You're, instead, working from the presumption that absinthe should, by essential definition, be chlorophyllically colored. As you know, from our prior discussions in this and other forums, I take issue with such an essentialist approach to absinthe, which was in it's heyday a hugely complex product with hundreds of differing formulations -- most containing coloring from non-chlorophyllic, often natural, sources.

On that note, Lasala is left totally uncolored, which is why it's the odd amber color, which corresponds the the colors of the base essences.

Incidentally, I've got a virtually clear bottle of Mari Mayans to show you, if your interested. Whatever they used to color it was, in fact, natural enough to breakdown significantly in sunlight.

"Unlike the other Spanish products, this one is a departure because it doesn't really present the flavor of a modified pastis. I disagree with the quote above, as being that I've worked with A. pontica quite a lot, I don't taste the peculiar flavor of that herb in this product....at all. In fact, I can't think of *any* modern product which employs that particular herb, this one notwithstanding. Therefore, my revelation comes as no surprise."

I can make a more convincing argument about this one. I can say, unequivocally, that Julian Segarra uses Artemesia pontica in his coloring step. And, that is, with absolute certitude, where the bitterness comes from.

I can say this because I have reliable (family) contacts in Chert. They have met face to face with Mr. Segarra, and he has told them as much. Given prior forum discussions about differing applications of the names Roman Wormwood and Artemesia pontica, the notion of coloring with Artemesia pontica could easily connote some totally different plant than the one you're using.

Once again, I don't see any reason for Mr. Segarra to lie about the formulation of his product, especially given that absinthe is merely a sidelight of his brandy distillery, that he uses as a catch all for bad batches of Brandy, which he fractionally distills down to 90% alcohol and uses to make absinthe and a delicious dry anise.

Finally, to correct an earlier statement by either you or Justin -- he does, in fact, claim to use only star anise.

"It depends on what you mean by 'flavor'. A distillation of even nominal amounts of absinthium indeed leaves a very pronounced flavor. What is this flavor like? It is exactly as I described in my earlier post."

This leads to a more abstract point. I've made a living for some time off of my sense of taste and my sense of smell. I get very uncomfortable when you make confident claims to know specifically, not only what is in a particular product, but how it was distilled.

There are thousands of elements of olfactory character in a good absinthe, and the greatest olfactory system on earth can only discern a few simultaneously. "Noses" who can accurately discern more than five distinct elements of mixed scent are so highly sought after in the French perfume industry that they are paid better than the CEOs of their companies.

This is complicated by the fact that many esters dull the sense of smell significantly, blocking or muddling all other odors for a short period of time. One such smell is that of anethol, found in 70-90% concentration in oil of anise, making absinthe particularly difficult to taste with any sense of clarity.

That being said, there are numerous products that contain thujone, with virtually none of the astringent, somewhat medicinal, taste that you're pointing out in Justin's la Bleue -- in fact that flavor was not present at all (not in the slightest) in the Eouard Pernod I tasted.

And last but not least, this addresses a larger issue. Justin wrote:

"Honestly Deva and Mari Mayans are 70% pastis and 30% Absinthe based on flavor and production. La Fee is a bit better around 40%:60% la bleue being more around 60%:40% (Absinthe to Pastis)..."

Pastis and absinthe, even modern absinthe, share only anise. If you were to make the same comparison using ouzo in the place of pastis it may be more apt -- but not much more so. Pastis is virtually mulled with Mediteranian spices, even the worst pastis is more complex that 90% of absinthes -- which even during their heyday were closer to anise than pastis.

And, I'll give my two cents on the "classic absinthe vs. modern absinthe" question right now, because there's an entire cult of personality cropping up around the three or four of us who've tasted it --

There is nothing terribly "special" about classic absinthe. It tastes, to most people I know who've tasted it, like a thin modern absinthe. I can say this because the tasting I was treated to was in a small group, and there wasn't one of us who didn't register disappointment at the taste. The alcohol is the dominant flavor, with anise a close second, then a slightly minty finish -- subtle, not full flavored at all.

Did I like what I tasted? Certainly, but I wouldn't ever pay more than $50 to repeat the opportunity.

This was a cellared bottle of Edouard Pernod with an intact cork, and most of us specifically stated that we'd preferred the stronger taste of modern absinthe (which we'd had the week before in Spain).

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