What is an Ayahuasca vine?

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archives Thru July 2001: Topics Archived Thru Oct 2000:What is an Ayahuasca vine?
By Black_rabbit on Sunday, November 05, 2000 - 09:40 pm: Edit

Sorry to beat a dead horse (I've only just read this thread as I have been offline) but I have a possibly helpful point.

If the many agencies that go by three letter acronyms and wear jackboots to work want to find information on the internet... in discussion of the sort Canute is into, euphamism is our friend. If I name a thing by it's proper name it is much more likely that they will find it if they are looking. For instance, saying *cid or aaa-sid is much less likely to come up on a bored enforcers screen than the proper spelling. Because a machine will look for proper spelling and known slang. And it would cost too much to have a person look.

Understand, I am not saying I want to discuss such things, but if you are reading, Canute, this would probably serve both your needs and those of us who want to remain an *unnoticed* wart on the asses of prohibitionists everywhere. (Now there's a dinnertime metaphor for ya!)

"There is no Santa Claus. The football is empty."

By _blackjack_ on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Please ignore the following if you don't want to hear me complain about my ailments:

Smart drugs? Funny you should ask. I'm in the process of tryng to figure out if I have Diebetes Insipidus (a process which includes having to keep a day's worth of piss in a bottle). DI has nothing to do with Diabetes Mellitus, except the same Greek root and a lot of urine; it is a deficciency in the antidiuretic hormone, vasopressin. The treatment is to take synthetic vasopressin by nasal spray. This same spray is a very popular smart drug. So I may end up on smart drugs by accident.

By Marc on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Don,

Shit, I was expecting you to rain hellfire down upon me for extending this thread. You're good company when you're mellow. While I'm no longer a member of the "chemical aerobics" set, I still enjoy celebrating my psychedelic past. It's so politically incorrect to have hippie values these days that I just can't resist coming on like a flower child gone to seed. In reality, my life style is pretty square. Reading Baudelaire in the bathtub is my idea of a total mind/body rush. Sometimes I'll go crazy and add a little eucalyptus oil to the bathwater. Now that's a trip.


Anybody in the forum experimenting with smart drugs? I've been taking piracetam, vinpocetine and hydergine. They're reputed to help you're brain retain information and improve you're ability to stay focused. Other functions attributed to them are mood elevation, energy
and the slowing of the aging process. You can read
about them on the Cognitive Enhancement Research Institute's (CERI) website.

By Don_walsh on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 06:37 am: Edit

Lord H, pls, I must demurr. Ted is both the Owsley and Leary of Absinthe, I am merely his loyal henchman and retainer, like Max to Prof.Fate in The Great Race (which I recommend) or Eyegor in YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN (Marty Feldman) with whom I share a walleyed countenance.

So, we'll never see eye to eye...

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 04:42 am: Edit

If Don is the Stanley Owsley of Absinthe then Ted must be Timothy Leary ;-)

By Don_walsh on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 04:01 am: Edit

Oh yes I know who Owsley was. I used to read Kesey even though I didn't emulate him. When I first read about acid, I was maybe 14 years old and articles about Leary et al were very exciting, I read a lot of Huxley and of course old Aldous was into all this stuff, mostly mescaline, who didn't read DOORS OF PERCEPTION? So don't think I wasn't tempted. It was 15-20 years later when I was deep into practical synthetic chemistry and I watched several grad student colleagues, doctoral candidates, fuck themselves up on MDA, MMDA etc...one guy ruined a promising career by starting a huge fire at UNO and got booted out. He was 6 months away from a Ph.D. I took a very pragmatic interest in the synthetic routes to just about everything. When the cops would call the department and ask for answers as to what some inventory from a drug lab meant, I was the one who could answer without blinking. Usually they were making phencyclidine (PCP, angel dust) and I didn't mind seeing those guys go down.

There are other things on the DEA schedules that are not benign trips. Don't mess with the benzilates (BZ etc), they will hurt you bad. Even the Army gave up on them and now they are looking for people foolhardy enough to clean up their mess. I'd rather waltz across Cambodia in snow shoes. 'STP' comes to mind, a close cousin of MDA. Those are all really variants on both mescaline and amphetamines. The main brain behind a lot of those was a chemist named Alex Shulgin who worked for Dow. A chemical warfare type.

For anyone interested in a twisted look at lots of things including the Sandoz Labs/Albery Hoffman culture, I recommend 'V' by Thomas Pynchon. It's fiction, but transcendental fiction.

I just make absinthe.

Actually I think the comparison is best made to Ted, rather than me. I'm really just a technician, Ted is the artisan-seer.

By Marc on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 03:22 am: Edit

hobgoblin,

I have to post disclaimers in order to keep
the Green Meanies off my back. Absinthe is whatever you want it to be. Koo koo ka choo.

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 03:13 am: Edit

Marc,

"ABSINTHE IS NOT A PSYCHEDELIC DRUG!"

What an disheartening revelation, and I kept e-mailing Spirits Corner complaining that their Absinthe wasn't working beacuse I hadn't yet met the Green Fairy ;-)

Hobgoblin

By Marc on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 03:01 am: Edit

Don,

The only reason I haven't done acid in 30 years is because over the years the quality of LSD has become questionable. When I first starting tripping, LSD was legal and being manufactured by the Sandoz Pharmaceutical company. When it became illegal, Stanley Owsley started manufacturing high quality
bootleg LSD using ergot from Sandoz. This was good stuff. When the skilled craftsmen got out of the production of acid, I stopped taking it. It's kind of like absinthe. Whether you like the comparison or not Don, you are the Stanley Owsley of absinthe. A master chemist, an artist creating a product according to ancient and revered standards.

For anybody who gives a shit:

ABSINTHE IS NOT A PSYCHEDELIC DRUG!
It's a goddamned apperitif. Or in some cases (Hills) a mouthwash.

By Marc on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 02:43 am: Edit

Don,

I am a sentimental fool. I still have a healthy
hard-on for the 60's. As do you for yer early days in New Orleans. It's all okay. It's clear to me that one of our major differences is that I did psychedelics and you did not. I have a certain religious fervor when it comes to tripping. As you do when it comes to absinthe. Given that this is an absinthe forum, you are in the loop and I am not not.

Kallisti and I will soon be sharing a drink here in New York . I'll ask her about the control issue then. I really don't think it's much of an issue at all. Absinthe, acid, free love, open minds and dark shadows are all part of this wild wild world we inhabit. Don, I love you brother, but man you can be a hardass.

By Don_walsh on Saturday, November 04, 2000 - 02:14 am: Edit

Marc. There may be an occasional pearl amidst the offal, but by and large this overlong thread is a pointless rant started by a troll who ain't even here any more.

I am not interested in 'controlling' anything outside of my own businesses, and certainly I'm not the Thought Police, far from it.

However, you are starting to repeat yourself about the benefits of acid (even though you don't do it anymore you hasten to add) and how you were around for the Summer of Love. I may delved into my own bag of anecdotes, but I try not to become too repititious.

By the way I hope your short list of alleged control freaks includes Kallisti, as she has made her wishes known about blathering on about drugs. She's the only one entitled to control anything on this forum and I just wish you would oblige her.

By Marc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 11:45 pm: Edit

anatomist,

p.j. sounds alot like the young Patti Smith on the new album. And that's a good thing.

By Jkk on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I heard this
"beer--is--more--dangerous--than--heroin" argument
for the first time close to thirty years ago. I
didn't believe it then, and I'm still not
convinced. Do you really think we could have gone
through a period of adolescent experimentation
with opiates as we did with pot and acid, and come
out of it without being addicted? As far as
complete legalization of narcotics is concerned,
there are countries where opiates are freely
available; a sizeable percent of their population
is hopelessly addicted. Do you think America
would be a better place if, say, 10% of us were
junkies incapable of being cured?

That said, I'm not in complete agreement with
the F.D.A.'s policies; I'm happy absinthe is
available--legally or not; and, yes, Canute, I
think this forum could use more freedom of speech!

By Malhomme on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 09:41 pm: Edit

For me it's not so much about content but about attitude.

"Does it fuck you up?"-- Forum pos(t)er
That's always been the first clue.

"Fuck the consequences, tell the truth!"-- Forum pos(t)er
Here we go again...

"Fuck arse, arse, bloody arse arse"-- Forum pos(t)er
Look Ma, I'm uh cuss'n!!!

"Can you teach me how to hack?"-- AOL poser, cousin to Forum pos(t)er.
That could be another.

Way to go tough-dark-independant-idealistic-fighting-the-system-man-guy!!!

Witless savage.

By Anatomist1 on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 07:25 pm: Edit

Marc,

I just bought the new PJ Harvey CD, and man is it a scorcher. "We Float" has a definite relation to classic U2, and it's also got the best Radiohead song that isn't on Kid A. But the first track is the killer. Previously, I only had "Is this desire?" which isn't in the same league. I'm getting "Rid of Me" tomorrow. Can't seem to get in tune with the new U2 stuff though...

K.

By Marc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 06:10 pm: Edit

I also overlooked absinthedrinker, my friend in England and fellow wine lover.
Canute bailed out of the forum. For a punk rocker he really wasn't all that tough.

By Marc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Peter,

I made up for it by covering your ass on another thread. Sorry joshua. As I scrolled up the thread your names slipped by me. I find most of the posts in these forums of interest and value. Trolls don't last long here.

By Petermarc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 06:02 pm: Edit

jeesh marc,
thanks for making joshua and i feel like shit...
i'm sure canute would want to kick your ass, too...

By Marc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:48 pm: Edit

Don,

This thread may be of no interest to you, but to claim it is about nothing is insulting to everyone posting here. What's your problem?
It keeps coming back to the same old thing. There are people, and Don you are one of them, that feel
they must control the content of what is said in the forum. It's stifling. If a thread bothers you or is not up to your standards of discourse, then steer clear of it. To say posts by anatomist, bob chong, artemis, ted, malhomme, blackjack, kallisti,jkk, justin and peruche verte and myself amount to nothing, is the height of arrogance.
Man, you can be judgemental. I have read countless posts of yours that have been off-topic
and concerning subject matter I'm not interested in, but I'd never say that they were about nothing.

By Don_walsh on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:25 pm: Edit

This thread was and is about nothing.

By Artemis on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 12:26 pm: Edit

From Blackjack:

"Because of the atmosphere of prohibition, use of illegal drugs simply takes on a more antisocial climate."

That's right. When I used such drugs years ago, the greatest danger to me thereby was not from the drugs themselves, but from the situations I put myself into while pursuing and using them, and from the company I sometimes found myself keeping as a result. For example, my house never got burglarized until people for whom burglary was an option got the opportunity to check it out by tagging along on a visit to me by a drug-dealing friend.

From Marc:

"LSD, peyote and the tryptamines helped me to develop a sense of morality."

Absolutely. I remember a Mardi Gras day at Lee Circle in New Orleans, when, with a head full of LSD, I witnessed a knife fight there on the grass. A boy had his palm split open to the bone. He sat on the ground bleeding like a pig while certain of his companions tried to drum up sentiment for revenge, and others urged him to seek medical care. The whole thing was something I normally would have stepped around like so much vomit on the sidewalk, but I gained a whole different perspective on senseless violence that day which remains with me still. The acid was definitely the catalyst.

By Petermarc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:15 am: Edit

what the hell was this thread about...?

By Petermarc on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:13 am: Edit

joshua,
sad, huh? pierre's is the new resturant of
morada bay...that's where i had my experience.
they have pernod and ricard but as i said they don't know what to do with it...it's owned by a french guy who should know better.

By Joshua on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 05:02 am: Edit

we got lost beacause we were following my wifes parents,and her mom thought the ripley museum was on the island just north of key west,by the time she reliezed this it was late and we neededto get back home.we were down there for a wedding in islamorada,it was on the beach behind a restraunt called peirres, i asked for pernod or any other pastis,they had no idea what i was talking about.very dissapointing

By Absinthedrinker on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 03:04 am: Edit

The only reason there is a 'drugs' problem is because Governments choose to make certain drugs illegal thus creating the basis of a blackmarket economy in which supply is controlled by organised crime. The more effective the Government is in reducing supply of drugs, the higher the prices will be and the more crimes committed to maintain a habit. If you remove restrictions on supply, the black market disappears, organised crime revenues take a hit and drug-associated street crime also disappears (except for the drunks who still won't like your face/football team or whatever). Then you spend the $billions you were wasting on enforcement (plus some more $billions if you choose to tax the stuff) on education and treatment. Everyone is happy except the CIA, FBI and DEA.

Just a thought...

By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, November 03, 2000 - 12:45 am: Edit

LSD, (a distant memory from my student days) does have the effect of altering how you view things, (although I'm undecided if this is for better or for worse). I found it had a substantial influence in the way I viewed authority and this view is still with me. It makes you wary and very sceptical of people who try to control your life. On the minus side you need to have a lot of time on your hands to give up the 12 hours needed for the experience.

Hobgoblin

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Funny, while I found my experiences with LSD to be liberating -- from where I was before -- I would say that in my personal-historical context it mostly exacerbated my tendencies toward megalomaniacal egotism. Swelling experiences of the kind of gentleness and oneness that you describe came way later. I'd tend to associate it with paying close attention to good, honest music, reading Marilynne Robinson and Larry McMurtry, and abandoning any financial future I might have had for a torch and some power tools...

K.

By Marc on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 08:21 pm: Edit

LSD, peyote and the tryptamines helped me to develop a sense of morality. When you have had a glimpse of the oneness of the Universe, you are inspired to respect and empathize with all things.
When you uderstand the interconnectedness of all things, sentient and non-sentient, you begin to comprehend the ripple-effect of karma. Thus a wise man will adjust his behavior to be in synch with the energy around him, tapping into the source, the TAO.
My point: the right drugs in the right hands can teach a person to be a better citizen of the Universe.

And that's the end of my drug rap.
Off in the distance, I could hear Don charging up his stun gun.

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Although I wouldn't want to make policy by Ted's arguments, I think there is really something there. I think it's about America. About what we were and what we still are. We like whiskey and guns, and raw frontiers. Alcohol is dangerous, but it's a slow dance. We like a slow dance with a dangerous woman. We like a long, quiet card game with calm cold stares on the surface and explosive steely violence seething underneath the table. There's a big difference between the incremental, decision-laden risk of alcohol, and playing with pharmecueticals and halucinogens, which are more akin to jumping off a cliff.

Perhaps we could freshen up this 'hackneyed' moral debate by taking a step back and breaking out the Foucault...

K.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Hi, Marc ;)

By Marc on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 03:39 pm: Edit

I have done recreational drugs off and on for most of my adult life. I was a coke fiend for over a decade. I stopped. With a very rare exception (hash, mushrooms), I no longer do drugs. Except alcohol. And I have struggled with alcohol abuse for 20 years. There are nights where I say to myself "I'll have a couple of glasses of wine". Two glasses invaribly leads to six. It's a struggle for me not to drink. If I go a night or two without a drink, I feel I've accomplished something. I drink far less than I used to, but I still drink more than I'd like too.
The only hard alcohol I drink is absinthe. Absinthe is a rich tasting drink that doesn't lend itself to drinking in quantity (at least not for me). My point is (and I do have one): The only drug that I've truly been addicted to is alcohol.Fortunately, I have more control over my drinking than in the past. As I grow older, I find that drinking takes more of a toll on my body so I am
less inclined to drink heavily. Booze can be a bitch.

Oops, sorry. I thought I was in the AA Forum.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Sorry, Ted, but alcohol withdrawl for a long-time alcoholic is in many ways more severe than opiate withdrawl. Withdrawl from alcohol has been known to kill people, no kidding, due to severe seizures, not to mention hallucinations. And it IS a physical addiction. Not that it really makes a difference: crack has no vector for PHYSICAL addiction.

The addictive potential of opiates is higher than alcohol, but alcohol addiction is much, much more common. Don't fool yourself into thinking it requires a gene to be an alcoholic; all we know is that many alcoholics share certain genes, not the exact relationship.

And nobody become addicted to opiates the first time they do them. Not physically possible. The addiction process requires repeaed use to change neuroreceptor function. Otherwise, doctors wouldn't be able to use opiates as pain-killers, which they do routinely. It is possible to use opiates without becoming addicted, just as much as there are people who can smoke tobacco without becoming addicted. Not a chance I want to take, but it can be done.

Again, I get the feeling you haven't known as many alcoholics as I have...

By Don_walsh on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 02:38 pm: Edit

What a waste of Kallisti's electrons! albeit they are free.

Hopefully the troll is back under the bridge and will not darken our cyberdoorstep again. A ixed metaphore, I know, I know.

By Tabreaux on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Believe me, I was not downplaying alcoholism. I merely pointed out that craving alcohol isn't the equivalent of the horrible episodes of convulsions and hospital stays that go with the withdrawals from opiate addiction. Mental addiction is bad enough, physical is even worse.

Unless you have the gene for alcoholism, it is much easier to enjoy alcohol responsibly and without addiction than say to enjoy heroin 'responsibly'. Unlike finding that you are an alcoholic, anyone can (and would) become addicted to heroin, possibly from the first use.

By Timk on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 02:09 pm: Edit

Tebreaux:

"Physical addiction is an entirely different level than alcoholism."

Have you ever seen a proper alcoholic try to give up, i know a guy who used to have to get up 3 times a night to have a swig from a bottle, he used to drink a couple of bottles of brandy a day - if you had seen the hell you have to go through to stop drinking like that then you probably wouldnt have said that. Incidentally he wont touch a single drop because he is so frightened of getting re-addicted and he has gone 'dry' for the best part of 10 years now

Tim

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 01:41 pm: Edit

"alcohol will do more damage to more ssems of your body than any routinely abused drug. "

ssems = systems

Gotta type slower...

I can also say that amphetamines most cerainly CAN be used responsibly. This can be witnessed by the fact that there are plenty of people who use them theraputically to treat ADHD, narcolepsy or depression (as I did for about a year) without becoming addicted.

But I guess we can drop this now, since Canute left and I think we've all made out positions pretty clear.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 01:36 pm: Edit

I remember a few years back, the propaganda was describing crystal meth as a combination of the effects of crack and PCP. Complete garbage. It'll make you paranoid and rot your teeth, but it won't turn you into a foaming maniac. You might spend a lot of time repainting every third tile in your kitchen, tho...

Ted, man, you've known some really screwed up people. I've known plenty of people whove done plenty of acid, and only the real drama queens even pretended to think anything they saw on acid was real. And I've seen a lot more violence (including gun-play) result from alcohol use than acid, by a wide margin. Maybe you just don't know as many ugly drunks as I do :)

Carck? Yeah, it sucks, but it would never have even come into being were it not for the prohibition economy (and possibly the CIA). The facts are, crime committed by people _on_ illegal drugs (as opposed to involved in the trade therof) are not that high, and the plurality involve crimes committed AGAINST other drug users, or against their own friends and family. Don't hang out with crackheads and you aren't likely to be victimized by one. (I lived in DC during the worst of the crack years...I'm not just talking out of my ass...)

Heroin? Nobody does heroin without knowing exactly what they are getting into. It's as much a lifestyle choice as a drug. It's a descision to eliminate all moral uncertainty in exchange for one, clear, unquestioned goal: get more drugs. Not people I'd want to hang out with (having learned that the hard way) but only a harm to themselves.

The fact of the matter is, if abused, alcohol will do more damage to more ssems of your body than any routinely abused drug.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 01:20 pm: Edit

I can't spell in German either...

{sounds of math}

6 oz of 11.5% wine would put a 100 pound woman at .039% after 1 hour, peaking at .054% around 10 minutes in, assuming a .015%/hr elimination rate. 2 glasses would be .093% after one our, and a peak of .108%. She wouldn't be down under .08% for an hour and a half.

So I was wrong. 1 glass won't do it, but 2 will, in fact, for anyone woman up to 113 lbs, for the first hour, anyhow.

The same formula says I can do 6 glasses an hour, which is crap. More like 12. It also says I should have been dead my freshman year of college.

By Tabreaux on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 01:15 pm: Edit

Blackjack:

There is no concrete definition of what it takes to achieve "mildly tripping". As far as LSD not being debilitating you can only speak for yourself. What seems like 'mildly tripping' to you may be debilitating to another. When it is debilitating, it is for hours. I've known persons to get lost while driving (one ended up driving on train tracks), another almost burned his apartment down while playing with fire, and even witnessed one otherwise sane person firing a shotgun in a neighborhood at night, combating imaginary monsters. Can you imagine if you or your girlfriend or child would have walked outside just then? No thanks, I'd much rather babysit a passed-out drunk.


Canute:

Regarding opiates, amphetamines and cocaine, the problem with opiates are that they are highly physically addictive (right behind nicotine). We already have a problem in the U.S. with people ruining their lives (and their families) with painkiller addiction and abuse, despite the controlled status of said substances. Physical addiction is an entirely different level than alcoholism. I can't even fathom what social problems legalization of morphine and heroin would add to that.
Amphetamines certainly can be useful, but those who've robbed, killed and run amok while hyped-up on crystal meth or 'ice' have ruined that category permanently. I won't even mention that the long-term effects on the endocrine system for some of the 'experimental' compounds are unknown. Can you imagine a nation of Alzheimer's patients?
As for cocaine, forget the sniffy-sniffy disco grade stuff. You are talking to someone who lives in the city with the highest incidence of crack-cocaine related crimes, with murder at the top of the list. Yes, can we please make this available to everyone who wants it?

This doesn't mean that I am in completely agreement with current drug policies. I don't think casual drug users necessarily should be subjected to lengthy jail sentences (unless they've done something horrid). Nevertheless, while I am not doubting the ability of some persons to use certain substances with little endangerment to themselves or those around them, too many live by the opinion that if little something is good, then more is much better. These people typicall don't show the self-control and/or resistance to addiction that others do. Regardless of your opinion or my opinion, the fault with this modus operandi (more is better) is obvious.

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Blackjack : I was only being mischievous. But I did try growing sdome in the garden, they turned out being right weedy specimens.

Anyway Im off from this forum as its not really my type of place.

By Jkk on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:47 pm: Edit

"Sprach" not "spract"

By Ekmass on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Keep in mind that Congress passed and the President just signed a new law making .08 the legal limit of the land. Guess there are gonna be a lot of new drunkards out there.
EM

By Bob_chong on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Blackjack:

One drink will give someone a BAC of .02-.04, depending on weight. If you gave a 50 pound child one drink, yes, BAC could hit .08.

The average person oxidizes nearly one drink per hour. So the "two glasses = drunk" theory would only hold up on a 90 lb. woman who slams two glasses as fast as she can and then goes driving.

BC

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:19 pm: Edit

Also spract Bob :

>>"This is true IF you weigh less than 100 pounds AND your state's legal limit is .08. "

I dunno if this demographic constitutes "a lot of people." Some women, I guess, would fit the bill. But this forum being a veritable sausage hang...>>

.08 is increasingly common, and a 100 pound woman can top that after 1 serving of alcohol, I believe. I guess it's matter of how long "dinner" is.

Sausage hang, indeed. I'm pushing 3 times that size...

And, Canute, no, I haven't tried growing my own tobacco (I looked into once, out of curiosity) but it does seem to be a good bit more difficult than setting up some sun lamps in your basement. My point ws that I doubt that marijuana's status has much to do with the fact that it can't be taxed. Plenty of things you can make yourself are taxed if produced in quantity.

I doubt that anybody but a botony nerd would waste time growing their own herb if it was legal, simply because UST and Phillip-Morris would probably be able to mass-produce it so cheaply it wouldn't be worth the effort. Think home-brewed beer...

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Drugs being cut with strychnne seems to be one of the greatest scare-tactics used by anti-drug crusaders, since plenty of drug-users seem to believe it. Stychnine is not cheap or particularly easy to get, and there haven't been any confirmed cases that I know of in which drugs have been found using it as an adulterant. Things like baking soda, corn starch or aspirin are much more likely. Which isn't to say that you're always getting what you buy; like I said it's not uncommon to pass of epehdrine or amphetamine as ecstasy, but it's unlikely that somebody's going to waste good heorin (as one of the popular rumors goes) to burn some raver thinking he's getting X.

By Bob_chong on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 11:15 am: Edit

Blackjack:

"...2 glasses of wine...is legally drunk for a lot of people."

This is true IF you weigh less than 100 pounds AND your state's legal limit is .08.

I dunno if this demographic constitutes "a lot of people." Some women, I guess, would fit the bill. But this forum being a veritable sausage hang...


BC

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:51 am: Edit

Blackjack : Have you ever tried growing your own tobacco from seeds? I have you get a shit product and a shit yield not even woth the effort. Growing your own Ganja on the other hand, good quality, good yield, piece of cake.

"Because of the atmosphere of prohibition, use of illegal drugs simply takes on a more antisocial climate. Those involved in the trade have no real motivation to provide good product or consider the well-being of drug users." Good point and the best argument for legalisation. It would also lead to good quality gear and no deaths from gear cut with strychnine.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:47 am: Edit

I can't speak for PCP, since I've never done it and only know one person who has, but LSD is not nearly as debilitating as you seem to think it is. Driving while mildly tripping (while not reccomended) is no more dangerous than driving after 2 glasses of wine (which is legally drunk for a lot of people). You don't really see flying monsters in the road or anything, and your conditioned reactions seem to work just fine (maybe better, considering the amphetimine-like nature of LSD). LSD doesn't turn you into a raving maniac, at least not in moderate doeses, and large doeses, in my experience, are more prone to just leave you sitting on the couch staring at the floor than turn you dangerous. I'd much rather be around somebody tripping their balls off than someone drunk, surley and vomiting.

You are right about the unpredictability of dosage. It's one of the real risks of prohibition. Fortunately, the economics of it make it less likely that you will get MORE of anything than you expected. You're much more likley to get burned. Most of the "ecstasy" sold these days in actually ephedrine...

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:40 am: Edit

Tabreaux : Fair enough, some good points in your last post. But your argument is flawed, the effects of many class A illegal drugs can be controlled by the dosage, the opiates, amphetimines, and arguably coke. This puts the responsiblity and control in the hands of the user, much like alcohol. I guess you would have no problem with legalisation here?

The depressant effects of alcohol, easy to control? Not when someone downs a skinfull and then glasses someone for giving a dirty look or spilling his beer, I've seen this happen more than once. I just think that we should recognise and admit the strength of the drug alcohol and the real danger it can do and does, rather than conveniently awarding it the status of at the very most a "soft" drug (if at all). Alcohol is a very "Hard" drug and is stronger and much more potentially dangerous than many (granted not all) class A drugs. (Thujone is a very "soft" drug). The legal staus of alcohol and the illegal status of many class A drugs is a nonsense.

Whether a drug is legal or not makes little odds to me Ill take what I like no state tells me what to do. I doubt if we'd ever see eye to eye on the merits of voting, the illusion of democracy is a trick to control us you should play no part in it there are better ways to change things Seattle was a good start.

Anyway Id like to draw a line under the bad vibes. I wont change my opinion and I wont shut up if challenged. What do you say?

By Tabreaux on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 10:06 am: Edit

Canute:

I do acknowledge the fact that alcohol is a potentially addictive and dangerous drug. However, unlike a hit of LSD or PCP, I can have two glasses of wine at dinner, and drive home without endangering the right to life and health of others. I don't have to worry about dealing with hours of hallucinations, wild emotional fits, or endocrine imbalances (e.g. depression). I consider many things in my opinion, not just what is legal and what isn't different drugs have different effects, and the depressant effects of alcohol are much easier to control than the excitatory, hallucinogenic effects of some other drugs. Also, the dosage of alcohol is easy to measure, and alcohol is metabolized quickly. Some other drugs are effective in amounts which cannot be measured easily (e.g. mcg weights), and last for hours on end. Does this entirely justify alcohol as an 'acceptable drug'? FOr some persons, no. For the rest of use however, for reasons I've pointed out above, the effects of alcohol are largely controlled by the actions and responsibility of the user. To the contrary, many other drugs immediately put the user entirely at the mercy of the substance, which can create an unpredictable situation, and it is this which I find to be unacceptable where issues of legality are concerned. I have experienced such experiences first-hand, both good and bad, and I have witnessed many more. I am not 'in the dark', not by a long shot. My reasoning is neither naive nor hypocritical.

And yes, I do vote. Whether my choices prevail or not, my philosophy is that it is better to vote than to sit at home and complain about those that do. You don't have to win an election to influence those that do.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 09:12 am: Edit

>>in my humble opinion,reefer is illegal because it cant be taxed,everyone has the seeds for it,not just huge corperations.>>

Tobacco is taxed, quite effectively, I might add, and you can get seeds at any seed'n'feed. And marijuana WAS taxed, in the US, from 1937 until 1968. The catch was you had to have the marijuana in hand to buy the tax stamp, and having marijuana WITHOUT the stamp was illigal. This was a means of getting around constitutional limits on federal power, something we don't even bother pretending to do anymore. The Marijuana Tax Act, BTW, was ruled unconstitutional in 1968, only to be replaced in 1970 (because of the "threat" of LSD) by law giving the FDA regulatory power to decide what drugs were and weren't legal without and legislative concent.

The primary moral difference between legal and illegal drugs lies in the surrounding culture. Because of the atmosphere of prohibition, use of illegal drugs simply takes on a more antisocial climate. Those involved in the trade have no real motivation to provide good product or consider the well-being of drug users. They, in fact, HAVE to lie in order to protect themselves. Since there is no cultural model for moderate social use, the way there is with alcohol, it is easy to slip into abuse. Now, all of this was CREATED by prohibition, but that doesn't make it any less real.

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 09:03 am: Edit

Tabreaux : You seem to hold the view that alcohol is not an addictive or dangerous drug, I can only assume you choose to ignore this fact beacuse alcohol is the drug you prefer to use.

"Your view that all should be legal and damn the consequences to non-abusers is typical of an abuser/addict." By your argument your own view on the legal position of alcohol says damn the consequences to non alcohol abusers, a typical view of an alcohol abuser/addict. You seem to conveniently view alcohol as less harmfull than most illegal drugs. Alcohol is a very, very powerful, addictive and dangerous drug, it causes more addiction, antisocial behaviour, death and misery than all the others put together, wake up.

Your view that the governments decision on the legal status of a drug is based on the public good is incredibly naive. The banning of marijuana in the UK and USA was made on the basis of racial prejudice and the banning of LSD was a political move.

"Fortunately, those who share my practical viewpoint abound at the voting booths." You bother to vote, I suppose you even think you live in a democracy and that your polititians give a shit about you.

I'd also like to remind you that you know nothing about my background or experiences. Your "educated and experienced judgement" seem conveniently inadequate to treat alcohol with the status it warrants, an addictive, dangerous drug.

By Tabreaux on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 08:34 am: Edit

Canute:

Your first fatal error here is stereotyping me. I will remind you sir that you know nothing about me nor my knowledge of pharmacology, and your assumption that I am naive to the first-hand effects of illicit substances is stupid (and woefully erroneous). Quite honestly, it perfectly illustrates the missing information and faulty guesswork you use in forming your pointed judgements.

Everyone here realizes that alcohol is a drug. Furthermore, if you had read the first paragraph of my post more carefully, you'd have clearly seen that I quickly excluded marijuana from my viewpoint of what I think should be illegal, and yet this obviously flew right over your head. My sentence was, "Legal or not, neither marijuana nor alcohol is the equivalent of refined high potency dissociatives". In simple terms, it means that I am not abject to responsible use of marijuana. Likewise, you've totally overlooked my use of the word "responsible" in my post.

The difference between us which reduces you to accusing me of having "fucking selfish hypocritical attitude" and "a narrow mind" is the fact that I use my educated and experienced judgement to weigh acute effects and danger, chronic effects and danger, and abuse/addiction potential of different illicit drugs, and this is the basis of my personal opinion and judgement in matters of legality (or illegality). On the other hand, you'd prefer to lump them all together (e.g. PCP and alcohol), and attempt to use the argument that alcohol is a drug to justify your opinion that all substances should be legalized, including those which are highly addictive and/or destructive. Your apparent inability to differentiate between them is precisely the reason why these substances have been made illegal. Your view that all should be legal and damn the consequences to non-abusers is typical of an abuser/addict. You can criticize me as being self-righteous or hypocritical for making a judgement for some and against others, and that's just fine with me. Fortunately, those who share my practical viewpoint abound at the voting booths, so the insulting crybabies will just have to deal with it.

By Petermarc on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 08:10 am: Edit

joshua,
took a wrong turn and ended up back in islamorada?
it's 80 miles north and there's only one road or
the ocean...i'll admit one can get turned around in key west, but...i hadn't been in the house for
years, but don't remember anything specific about
absinthe...there is a picture of him in conrad's
book in spain at a table with some glasses...also
realize, when hemingway was in key west, it was
already banned in the us, so there probably wasn't
much of it there...of course, one could get just about anything in key west, now it's t-shirts and
margaritaville...very sad now that cruise ships
dock there...i lived just north of islamorada, deathly boring...there is a good french resturant
and resort there,(morada bay) now...they had both ricard and pernod behind the bar, but when i asked for a pastis, the barman didn't know what i was talking about,and then poured me a full glass.. food is decent, though. maybe hubert will bring
some in for authenticity, but don't hold your breath.

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 08:03 am: Edit

Joshua : The only way I can listen to Sandinista was to tape about 10 tracks and listen to these. Some cracking tracks but buried amongst some tedious stuff. Good to see another Clash fan.

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:59 am: Edit

Bob Chong : These forum members that you choose to place on a pedastle may have some knowledge on absinthe but they show sod all knowledge about other types of drugs. When they choose to lecture to me about such issues don't expect me to just sit there and accept ignorance.

I have my own opinions on absinthe and im not the only one on this forum who will admit that absinthe does contain mind altering substances other than alcohol. I dont care who these people you honour so much are but Im not going to say yes sir you know best when I think there talking shit.

You can lick whoevers balls you wish but dont expect me to do the same. You may enjoy tugging your forelock and be grateful when your idols toss you a kind word in return.

I recognise no social hierarchies and couldnt care less if someone was the Sage of New Orleans or the Sage of a Herb Garden. Ill say what I think.

There too much attempts at thought control on this forum. Next thing people will be asked to sign up to a policy on the correct view of absinthe and the world and sign an oath of allegiance to the forums "accepted views" before they can register.

If you think my debate is "a tired, hackneyed debate." then fuck off and join another thread.

By Bob_chong on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:40 am: Edit

Joshua:

I would highly doubt if Papa's house in the Keys would have any absinthe stuff. The thing about Papa was, he liked to pretend that he was "Joe Local" wherever he went. If he were in Cuba, you could bet that he'd "know" everything about rum and cigars. In Spain, he fancied himself a bullfighter. Etc. So unless absinthe was popular as a local thing in Key West, Papa would have had no part of it there.

BC

By Bob_chong on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:34 am: Edit

Canute:

If you bothered to read through the old posts, you'd realize that some of the people you keep shitting on have forgotten more about absinthe than you'll ever know. These same folks have helped build the knowledge base and have tutored us fellow enthusiasts from topics ranging from the difference between Pimpinella anisum and Illicium verum all the way to isomerization of thujone. This has earned them some respect in the absinthe community. Would you go to a physics convention and start calling Hawking a cocksucker if he didn't smoke pot? There is no "social" hierarchy, but there certainly is a content knowledge hierarchy here.

I am not taking issue with your little debate on the worthiness of substance XYZ versus absinthe, other than that it is a tired, hackneyed debate.


Damn--sorry folks. I guess this makes me a Billy Goat, too.

BC

By Joshua on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:30 am: Edit

your defintly right about sandinista,waay too long and sprawling,but ok in small doses

By Joshua on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:28 am: Edit

as far as i know i am the only one,which im not all that sociabale. my wife and i just recently visited the keys,we went to islamorada,and on to key west, i wanted to go see hemingways house but took a wong turn and ended up back in islamorada,does anyone know if in his house they display any absinthe related articles?

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 07:19 am: Edit

As it seems to be offending some people on this forum I will make efforts to reduce my use of expletives. But my sentiments and opinions remain unchanged and I will voice them as and when I want.

By Petermarc on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 06:25 am: Edit

joshua,
is there alot of interest in absinthe in south
florida? i used to live in the keys....

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 06:21 am: Edit

Joshua : Yeh, great song off an ace album. I think that London Calling was the the last good album the Clash made, Sandinista had a number of good tracks but considering the size of the album it was a bit of a let down.

Youre right governments decide the legality and otherwise of drugs not on the grounds of the welfare and freedoms of the public but for more sinister reasons. If we cant see this then we are either blind, ignorant or both. The "alcohols ok but "drugs" arent" attitude gets right up my nose, its just a load of ignorance and hypocrisy. Dont let the system control you,,,don't accept the system, destroy it!

By Joshua on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 05:00 am: Edit

in my humble opinion,reefer is illegal because it cant be taxed,everyone has the seeds for it,not just huge corperations.with my small absinthe experinces,it does have an effect beyond the alcahol,though not a whole lot.also i think the poets and artists of old, hallucinated just because of the massive intake of alchaol,for instance one time a few years back,my wife and i were drinking tequila,after a about 6 shots,i wanted no more,she said something to the effrct of being a lightweight,so without further ado,i chugged the rest of the bottle.i saw all kinds of horrific things,long tall thin beings,trees meltin and changing shape.and to this day just the smell of tequila makes me want to puke.these of course are just my opinions however wrong they may be.sorry for the bad spelling.and to canute,great clash referance,i love that song guns of brixton

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 03:19 am: Edit

Oxygenee : "Secondly, the difference between alchohol and tobacco and most other drugs is simply the difference between chronic danger and acute danger. Society, tends to frown on acutely
dangerous substances, even when the risk is very small(LSD, ecstasy) while tolerating chronically dangerous substances, even when the risk is very high (alchohol, tobacco)." This is nonsense, where is the acute danger of marijuana? Society bans substances for all sorts of motives, including racist and other prejudicial motives, lets not stick our heads in the sand, these motives are not always in the interests of public health and welfare. Dores the fact that alcohol is banned in muslim countries mean that it is more acutely dangerous there than in the West? If you walk into an Amsterdam Coffee-Shoip and buy a joint is it less acutely dangerous there than in the UK or USA? Is an E-tab less acutely dangerous in an Amsterdam night-club than it is in the UK or USA? Dont fool yourself, the legality and illegality of drugs is not based on public safety, its all about prejudice.

"Firstly, Canute: Why the gratuitous obscenities? Particularly distressing when directed at the
noble Sage of New Orleans..." Im afraid Tabreaux deserves no special treatment, the thing that sickens me about this forum is the understanding that some people should be allowed more leaway than others. I recognise no social hierarchies and I couldn't give a shit whether I'm "on message" or "politically correct" in the eyes of the self appointed leaders of this forum, or anyone else.

Absinthe does contain mind altering drugs other than alcohol.

Anatomist : Sorry but "I think we're fairly unanimous in disputing Canute's anecdotally based
estimation of any effects of absinthe that can be distinguished from that of other alcoholic
beverages, in terms of the character and intensity of any such effects." This is a load of pig-shit, no offence.

As Blackjack humorously says :

CRASH

"DEA! Down on the floor! Where's the Mari Mayans?"

Fuck you, pig. Everybody knows it's got no thujone!

I dont think this is gonna happen so why keep up this denial of the mind-altering effects of Absinthe (excluding the alcohol).

By Oxygenee on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 02:36 am: Edit

Firstly, Canute: Why the gratuitous obscenities? Particularly distressing when directed at the noble Sage of New Orleans...

Secondly, the difference between alchohol and tobacco and most other drugs is simply the difference between chronic danger and acute danger. Society, tends to frown on acutely dangerous substances, even when the risk is very small(LSD, ecstasy) while tolerating chronically dangerous substances, even when the risk is very high (alchohol, tobacco).

The theory surely is that chronic use requires individual choice and decision making over a long period, while an acutely dangerous substance MAY be life threatening the very first time it is consumed. Even if the risk of this is almost infinitesimally small, its surely not irrational to seek to protect particularly young people from the potentially lethal consequences of a single perhaps not well thought out decision.

I don't mean to sound reactionary here, and I appreciate (and share)the anecdotal evidence of the positive effects of many narcotic substances: I'm simply saying that there is a rational argument for the distinction society makes between alchohol and tobacco on the one hand, and most other drugs on the other, and that this rational argument is a more convincing explanation for the de facto situation than racism, capitalism, conservatism, blind hatred etc.

By Canute on Thursday, November 02, 2000 - 01:09 am: Edit

Tabreaux : You seem to forget that there are more winos on the streets than junkies, there are more women and children who suffer beatings, abuse and death as a result of drunken men. More people are mown down by drunk drivers than die as a result of other drugs. Alcohol is taken more frequently by schoolkids than other drugs and leads to more social problems. Why do you have less of a problem with picking up the tab for the social damage caused by alcohol than for other drugs?

"As far as drawing parallels between our favorite, Deva Absenta, and "acid and other good drugs", there are none." Yes there are, they are all drugs. You've obviously never sat down and smoked a few joints, it doesn't cause you to lose control for hours on end, or lose the ability to walk, or make you start fights, or insult people, or be violently sick, and you wont wake up the next morning feeling like shit. Alcohol however can make you do all of these, but then thats OK because alcohol is legal and is enjoyed by men in suits everywhere. Look around you Tabreaux

"I don't know what old wives tale influenced the ban of marijuana in Britain, but that has no
bearing on anything relevent today." This is not an old wives tale it is fact and has relevance today. If marijuana had been the common drug of choice of white english society and alcohol had been the drug of choice of the black immigrants then alcohol would be illegal. (We'd no doubt have a lot less death and carnage as a result). Anyway racist attitudes of our governments are always rellevant and decisions made on such basis cannot be accepted.

What it boils down to is that Tabreaux likes to use alcohol so therefore it should be legal. Others may like to use other drugs, but hey fuck them you don't want any of your hard earned cash to go towards any problems that may be caused by their drugs. But hey its OK for their hard earned cash to pay for the the problems caused by alcohol. (Absinthe should of course also be made legal because you like it also). What a fucking selfish hypocritical attitude, what a narrow mind.

By Marc on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 05:14 pm: Edit

I lived in the Haight during the summer of love.
There were hundreds of thousands of young people from all over the world who had gathered there
to experiment with sex and drugs. I can testify that the vibe was overwhelmingly positive and that
the acid casualties were minimal. In all of my years of exploring psychedelics, I have had wonderful as well as terrifying trips. I have not gone insane. My many friends and acquaintances
who've tripped have not gone insane. In fact, most of the people I know who've done acid etc. have found it to be of great benefit to them.
People who take drugs in the wrong setting, with the wrong attitude or with the wrong information
can have bad experiences. Some of my worst trips have been a result of excessive alcohol consumption. I have said and done things that have been horrible and haven't even recalled them
the following day. Blackouts. I've had the shit beat out of me because I become a fearless and nasty person on booze. So, all mind-altering substances come with a risk. It is the job of the person taking the substances to know what they are taking, how to take it and the best time and space in which to take it. It's unfair to demonize
drugs because of the stupidity of a few people.
Man has always been drawn to "going out of his mind", shedding his ego and seeing his true Self.

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 04:59 pm: Edit

Just a small addendum: I think we're fairly unanimous in disputing Canute's anecdotally based estimation of any effects of absinthe that can be distinguished from that of other alcoholic beverages, in terms of the character and intensity of any such effects. However, I think the house of alcohol is a pretty flimsy, glass place to set up a catapult... try that one down the street that looks like it's made out of straw and smells like a dead skunk...

K.

By _blackjack_ on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 04:53 pm: Edit

"Drinking absinthe (or anything else) responsibly doesn't cause a loss of mental control for hours on end."

The word "responsibly" is the important thing here. Using psychodelics responsibly dosn't lead to these things either. I'm not sure if PCP can be used "responsibly," but I am pretty sure the horror stories associated with it are exaggerated, if for no reason other than the fact that the same things have been said variously about absinthe and marijuana. Alcohol, if abused, is about as physically and mentally destructive a drug as you can get. I can imagine little meaner than a man on a burbon binge.

Canute, see what you did! You got us talking about drugs. What's that noise?

CRASH

"DEA! Down on the floor! Where's the Mari Mayans?"

Fuck you, pig. Everybody knows it's got no thujone!

By _blackjack_ on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 04:45 pm: Edit

The primary thing that the beats and hippies did, in the US anyway, that warrented the illegalization of LSD, was to preach revolutionary politics. J. Edgar said as much publically. Since they couldn't arrest them for speech, they'd arrest them for drugs. Thus, the FDA was given power to schedule drugs without legislation, and the War on Drugs was born.

In the US, Marijuana was illegalized (AFTER alcohol prohibition had come and gone) nationally under pressure from southwestern states during the depression so they could have an excuse to deport mexicans. The resulting law (which was actually just a prohibitive tax) was ruled unconstitutional in 1968 because it required self-incrimination--admitting you had marijuana without a tax stamp--in order to *get* the tax stamp.

None of this has anything to do with absinthe, but I just wanted to prove to Canute that we DO like to keep facts straight around here :)

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 04:32 pm: Edit

I dunno Ted, if you look at alcohol's track record in those terms, it doesn't come out so hot. Last time I checked, the alcohol-attributed death toll per year was about five times as high as all legal and illegal pharmecuticals combined. Granted, if PCP were as available, the stats might be different. However, the kind of behavior you described may lead to more bizzare anecdotes, but what about all the drunken wife-beaters, child-abusers, repeat vehicular offenders, and bar-brawlers? More mundane to recount in particular instances, perhaps, but far more common. If one drinks enough of it, alcohol can be as debilitating and annebriating (sp?) as any illegal drug I've ever studied. The problem with these people is the people, not so much the drug they take.

About once, a year someone gets their head smashed to a pulp on the sidewalk here in Madison, and rounding up drunk idiots who fight and break stuff on the weekends constitutes the bulk of our police force's crimefighting load. The true alcohol-associated rape statistics on the UW campus are unavailable, but they would be harrowing to know. In my experience with other drugs, and users of other drugs, I would have to rank alcohol as the number one violence and genereal mayhem-inducing substance. Of course, derivatives of the coca plant are associated with much violence, but that seems to be more of an economically related phenomenon (market value and distribution system).

On the other hand, many people use alcohol relatively safely and moderately. Some drugs, like PCP, may have almost no likely safe and moderate recreational applications, while others, like marijuana, are almost impossible to associate with any harm other than a waste of the user's time. There is no sensible correlation between the harmfulness of any drugs, to oneself or society, and the legality those drugs... at least not in the US.

K.

By Bob_chong on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 03:10 pm: Edit

Ted:

Ah... the stinking corpses...bodybags...madmen in the streets. You tell it so well that I almost miss New Orleans.

BC

By Tabreaux on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Canute:

I don't know what old wives tale influenced the ban of marijuana in Britain, but that has no bearing on anything relevent today. Legal or not, neither marijuana nor alcohol is the equivalent of refined high potency dissociatives.


With regard to: "As for the Beats and Hippies...they did nothing to warrant the banning of Acid and other good drugs. Whats wrong with open fun, open sex, and a good time?"

Surely you can't be oblivious to the years of recorded instances whereby the "open fun, open sex, and a good time" ended in severe tragedy, causing serious injury or death to themselves and/or others? Just for a few off the top of my head, how about the persons on PCP slashing themselves to pieces and squealing like stuck pigs in an emergency care ward(saw it with my own eyes). How about those who've attempted to fly out of windows, or the 'hippy' in Dallas who castrated himself while tripping on acid? How about the several poor souls in L.A. who are now locked in fetal position (due to severe endocrine damage) after taking some homemade 'ecstacy'(made national TV)? Not even to mention those who've had something slipped into a drink unknowingly, only to drive off and end up killing themselves *and* two others (happened here recently to someone I knew). No, just as guns should be kept out of the hands of children, powerful substances which cause a loss of control should be kept from the hands of mental children.

As staunchly liberal as I am on social freedoms, and as much it doesn't matter to me what you or anyone does to themselves behind closed doors, I don't want a situation whereby I have to 'crack' you open out of self-defense because you approached me on the street all flipped out, acting like a madman (I almost killed that asshole). Nor do I care for my hard earned tax money to be diverted to the cause of your medical/psychological disorders. If you die from an overdose in your own place, only to be carried out stinking in a body bag several weeks later (like a former neighbor), that's fine with me. Shoot another speedball and party on. No, I really don't care how much open fun, open sex, or whatever kind of good time you had with the drugs behind your doors....so long as I don't have to pay to clean up your mess.

Drinking absinthe (or anything else) responsibly doesn't cause a loss of mental control for hours on end, and if it did, you have no business drinking at all. As far as drawing parallels between your favorite, Deva Absenta, and "acid and other good drugs", there are none.

By Canute on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 12:52 pm: Edit

Marc : You opened for Madness, WOW, you were truly honoured. How did they go down? Their music can often seem a bit London (even Camden Town) orientated.

Don : "These substances were made illegal solely because irresponsible abusers of said substances committed immoral acts worthy of media attention. In many cases, these substances were legal for years before being 'discovered' and subsequently abused by assholes."

Can't agree with this. In Britain Ganja was banned as a result of evil racism from the establishment. Ganja was the drug of choice of the West Indian immigrants and was banned because the media and politicians claimed that it would cause Black Men (no doubt with Big Cocks) to become uncontrollably horny and deflower our precious English maidens. (Anyone who finds Ganja helps to gives them a hard-on is smoking some odd Herb. Its sometimes difficult enugh to piss straight let alone get a stiffy after a good smoke).

As for the Beats and Hippies (Im not a hippy never have been. I was a punk and a ska) they did nothing to warrant the banning of Acid and other good drugs. Whats wrong with open fun, open sex, and a good time. Its a lot better than the slimy shit that goes on behind the closed doors of Middle America/England. The Drugs were banned because we were controlled (and still are) by a bunch of slimy, evil, two-faced, hypocrits who wouldn't know honesty and a good time even if it bit them on their knobs.

Anatomist : I like your style but I never said I would deny the truth or speak a falsehood. If the filth turned up on my door they wouldnt set foot inside without a warrant and if they had a warrant I doubt if they would ask me much questions about what I was up to before steaming in. "When they kick in your front door how ya gonna come, with your hands on your head or on the trigger of your gun"

As for the chemical efects of absinthe, they may be subtle but they are there. Saying theyre not an intoxicant in the clinical sense is like saying LSD isnt. Although the degree of intoxication is in a different league its just a matter of degree. Im not gonna lie and say otherwise.

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 11:59 am: Edit

Besides, Canute, with my little gedanken-experiment I got you to admit that even a green-booted, angry mod can see the value of not shouting the truth and fucking the consequences in every circumstance. 'Tis the Outlaw's Code not to make yourself conspicuous without good reason. The punk, fuck-off ethic has value too, and there's a time for that as well... hell, my whole country was founded on it.

As far as your limited subjective experience of absinthe conferring "The Truth" upon statements you go on to make about it's chemical constituents, I think that's where you took a bad leap. I get really high off of listening to Sleater-Kinney, but I wouldn't go around pronouncing their music in an intoxicant in a clinical sense.

K.

By Tabreaux on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 11:30 am: Edit

Canute,

The legal status of psychoactive substances has nothing to do with morality, and this shouldn't be an issue. These substances were made illegal solely because irresponsible abusers of said substances committed immoral acts worthy of media attention. In many cases, these substances were legal for years before being 'discovered' and subsequently abused by assholes. Had adventurous civilian experimenters been responsible enough to moderate their activities and keep them hidden within the confines of their own homes (a hypothetical thought), maybe the legal climate would be different.

Being a scientist, I do not view any of these substances as an evil tool which will corrupt our moral fiber. On the other hand, I think it is tragic that they find their way into the hands of idiots and fools, much in the same way that guns find their way into the hands of criminals. A few bad apples tend to ruin the entire bushel.

In spite of my views, the consensus here is that we simply don't want this BB to degrade to a pit of discussion of drug abuse. The best way to do that is not to equate absinthe to illicit drugs, regardless of what you believe. There are many more persons out there who do not know enough to differentiate the sorely exaggerated claims of 'absinth' distributors from the truth, and unfortunately, some of these persons who are directly involved in making the rules (laws) will consider the validity of the false propaganda.

Speaking for myself, I find the 'mind-altering effects' of modern absinthe to range from subtle to non-existent, always subjective, and usually exaggerated. Maybe Van Gogh would disagree with me. Regardless, what people like him were drinking then is not the same as what is available now, and FWIW, I have not yet heard of so much as one modern case of 'absinthism', fits or seizures, or otherwise.

Therefore, we prefer not to merge discussions of absinthe and illicit drugs in the public spotlight. This has nothing to do with how much spine we have. This is simply in the best interest of you, me, and everyone who likes to imbibe or discuss absinthe.

By Marc on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 11:03 am: Edit

canute,

don't go anywhere. You're welcome here. Enjoy the company. There's some good people in the forum

By Marc on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 11:01 am: Edit

canute

I am big Madness fan. My band, The Nails, opened for them in New York City in the early 80s. Believe it or not, The Nails were a ska band at one time. One of my backup vocalists was Neneh
Cherry.

By Canute on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 10:44 am: Edit

Marc : My profile has now been altered, wouldnt want be viewed as being uptight. Madness I guess is probably not your type of sounds, although maybe Im wrong. One of the best fucking bands ever to come out of London, or anywhere else. Weve produced nothing as good as the bands we produced in the late 1970s.

As to the rest of you I still stand by everything I've wrote but Ill bite my tongue for a bit, unless I'm challenged. But I havent gone away and I havent shut up forever.

By Bob_chong on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 08:36 am: Edit

Don,

I thought about having the final goat turn the troll's nuts into earrings, but that would have been redundant. ;-)

BC

By Don_walsh on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 08:25 am: Edit

Bob, I did take note of your 'troll alert' parts 1 and 2. However I was distracted by the 'chemistry thread' elsewhere on site, and didn't have time till now to say 'attaboy'.

Attayboy!

By Artemis on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 06:48 am: Edit

This too, shall pass. Bob Chong, the story of the goats and troll was much appreciated; very nice story.

By Marc on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 02:39 am: Edit

Don,

Yes, of course there are exceptions. Take yourself for example. Your thunder reverberates through the halls of cyberspace as well as the "real" world. In that we are brothers.

By Don_walsh on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 01:50 am: Edit

Marc, cute theory, just remember that there are always exceptions to every rule.

:)

Don

By Marc on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 01:45 am: Edit

canute,

Your personal quote, "fuck art let's dance",
was at one time a slogan used by the band Madness.
I am surprised that you censored yourself by spelling the word fuck "fu*k". Bloody uptight, I'd say.

By Canute on Wednesday, November 01, 2000 - 01:19 am: Edit

Blackjack : You said "He disputes that alcohol and illegal drugs are morally equivalent, and he has a point, because illegal drugs do not exist in a vacuum, isolated form the social perceptions of them and the culture that surrounds thier use. I can understand how that might not have been clear, since you haven't been around the forim long enough to have context."

If the we accept that the morality of a drug is determined by their legality then we are a sad bunch without any minds. But if it's the illegal nature of these drugs that cause the problems of their social perceptions and culture, then the solution is simple, de-criminalizse them. But don't expect me to sit by and shut up when someone spouts a load of ignorance about how alcohol is somehow better than grass. If Don Walsh is concerned with his own business then fine, but don't expect the rest of us to make allowances for this.

If this forum is about absinthe then why the hysteria when someone dares talk about the mind altering effects of absinth?

I am from the UK, my favourite brand is Deva.

Anatomist : Interesting scenario. But all I'd say is "do you have a search warrant?". It mkaes no difference whether I say I'm smoking or not, if they've got a warrant they storm on in , if they haven't they go away.

I am from the UK, my favourite brand is Deva.

By Marc on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 11:53 pm: Edit

As we all know, it's easy to act tuff on the internet. It certainly doesn't require "balls".
I have a theory: the louder and more abusive you are online is directly proportional to how weak and inconsequential you are in the "real" world.
Cyberspace is full of digital Walter Mittys flying in their techno aircraft and waving at the imaginary adoring crowds below.

canute,

You've visited my website. I have nothing to hide. I walk it like I talk it. So, take my advice and listen closely to what goes on in this forum. If you are genuinely interested, there is much to learn here about absinthe, art, politics and philosophy . If you want to discuss drugs go to The Hive or Deja.com (alt.drugs). They are fascinating and informative sites. In fact, you may bump into me there. I've deeply explored psychedelic drugs. I respect them. I believe LSD, peyote and psylocibin to be sacraments. When I first approached absinthe, I was hoping to discover a new hallucinogen. Well, it never came to be. Absinthe is a delicious drink and imparts a pleasant high (when drunk in moderation), but it ain't gonna make you see God. You must go elsewhere for that...preferably inward.

On a side note:

I am surprised by the number of absinthe devotees
who have not experimented with psychedelics. Or if they have, it's been minimally. My guess is that absinthe has some of the taboo allure of illegal drugs so it's sexy, but, unlike psychedelics,it doesn't challenge the psychological or spiritual perspective of the imbiber. Absinthe can lead to revery but not the wholesale dissolution of the ego. Meeting the Green Fairy is quite different from encountering
green-headed Mescalito.

By Anatomist1 on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 10:46 pm: Edit

If it pleases the court, I have a question for Mr. Canute.

You say "Speak the truth and fuck the consequences!"

and also: "Others can arse-lick the powers that control us, I'm not about to start and I'm not having others tell me that I should behave in such a way. I'll speak it as I see it and damn the consequences."

In that context, let us assume that you and some of your buddies are hanging out in your living room. You've got a nice new half-ounce of skunky kine bud spread out on your unfolded copy of "The Dark Side of the Moon", and you're using your favorite 2-chambered pyrex bong. You hear a knock on the door. You open it to find a policeman. He asks "What are you doing in there? I've heard reports that you're doing illegal drugs. Are you smoking pot in there?"

What'll it be...

"No Sir, I'm afraid you're mistaken. If you want to come in, I'll have to see your search warrant."

or...

"Actually yes, you fuckin' nutless pig. We're smoking up a storm in here. Come and see for yourself. What're you gonna do about it?"


K.

By Bob_chong on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Trip, trap, trip, trap, trip, trap! went the bridge, for the billy goat was so heavy that the bridge creaked and groaned under him.

"Who's that tramping over my bridge?" roared the troll.

"It's I! The big Billy Goat Gruff ," said the billy goat, who had an ugly hoarse voice of his own.

"Now I 'm coming to gobble you up," roared the troll.

Well, come along! I've got two spears,
And I'll poke your eyeballs out at your ears;
I've got besides two curling-stones,
And I'll crush you to bits, body and bones.

That was what the big billy goat said. And then he flew at the troll, and poked his eyes out with his horns, and crushed him to bits, body and bones, and tossed him out into the cascade, and after that he went up to the hillside...[where the three goats laughed and drank absinthe together.]
Snip, snap, snout.
This tale's told out.


--------
Source: Peter Christen Asbjørnsen and Jørgen Moe, "De tre bukkene Bruse som skulle gå til seters og gjøre seg fete," Norske Folkeeventyr, translated by George Webbe Dasent in Popular Tales from the Norse, 2nd edition (London: George Routledge and Sons, n.d.), no. 37, pp. 275-276. Translation revised by D. L. Ashliman.

By Don_walsh on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Jeez, now it's some little druggie twerp who is pumping up the testosterone level around here. Canute, you'd better consider who you are talking to before you start screaming in caps and saying they have no balls. Someone might just hand you yours after fashioning them into earrings for you.

Incidentally you are full of shit.

By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Incidentally, Canute, where are you from? Your syntax suggests the UK, in which case, absinthe isn't illegal for you anyway.

By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 03:01 pm: Edit

I guess that makes me a billy-goat.

Canute-

>> Very true. However Don Walsh's post represents such ridiculous views and I can't let this go unchallenged. >>

You need to understand where Don is coming from; he is in the business of (aong other thngs) making Absinthe overseas, so he has the most to lose should some association between Absinthe and illegal drugs lead to some kind of crack-down. Don's not an idiot. He knows darn well that alcohol is, technically, a drug. He knows more about it that you could hope to. He disputes that alcohol and illegal drugs are morally equivalent, and he has a point, because illegal drugs do not exist in a vacuum, isolated form the social perceptions of them and the culture that surrounds thier use. I can understand how that might not have been clear, since you haven't been around the forim long enough to have context.

>> It is the thujone content of absinthe that makes it not legal. >>

As we have discussed, not exactly. Thujone and wormwood are only legal issues because of the great misunderstanding of thujone's effects propogated by bad science and hysteria 80+ years ago. The fact that somebody banned thujone does not mean that it actually psychotorpic.

>> If I drink 3 glasses of Absinthe I experience these so called secondary (mind altering) effects before I feel any effect from the alcohol. >>

Good for you. Your experience is not universal. If I get any effect other than alcohol, it might be a mild stimulation comperable to a cup of coffee. Then again, I don't get psychotorpic effects off LSD, so I'm not a good sample.

What I'm saying is that it isn't that we are skirting around the subject of "secondary effects;" it's that we don't have any solid proof that there ARE any. The research that has been done is limited, and anecdotal reports vary wildly. Trust us, here. We've been through all this before. You're not saying anything new.

>> Lets not act like men without dicks. >>

You see, this is what is uncalled for. First of all, it's sexist, and second, it's crude. You could have made your point much better without being abusive.

>>Others can arse-lick the powers that control us, I'm not about to start and I'm not having others tell me that I should behave in such a way. I'll speak it as I see it and damn the consequences. >>

Nobody is arse-licking. We're discussing absinthe using the best data availible. I don't think anybody is feeling pressured to avoid discussing anything *absinthe related* that they chose. What we are trying to do is dispell misconceptions that might make people mis-construe waht absinthe is about.

>>Blackjack, your intentions are decent but you have a voice, use it. >>

I do use it, but I try not to waste ie (this thread notwithstanding) in situations where it does no good. What is it that you hope to accomplish by insisting, in this forum, that Absinthe is somehow akin to hallucenagens. The experienced folks here (especially the chemists) know you are wrong. The only thing it will accomplish is giving outsiders and newbies the wrng idea, which, as we've discussed, can lead to real problems.

If you want to talk about hallucenagens, I'm sure there are plenty of places on-line for that. If you want to rant about the absurdity of US drug policy, there are places for that too. This is a place for talking about absinthe.

So: what's your favorite brand, Canute?

By Canute on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Blackjack : I respect the tone and intention of your post however you say

"1) Alcohol is a drug Nobody said it wasn't."

But Don Walsh wrote "We do seek to stress the fact that absinthe is a liqueur and not a drug. If Canute wants to classify all alcoholic beverages as drugs then he can do so but is sounds like just a rerun of the hoary old bullshit moral-equivalence argument from the 60s and 70s. "Mom and Dad have their Martinis, alcohol is a drug, so why can't I smoke pot?"

I am not about to stand by and let such falsehoods go unchallenged.

Blackjack you say "This is a country where recreational use of drugs, except alcohol, caffeine and (increasingly less so)tobacco, is met with hysteria. It's stupid, but that's the way it is."

Very true. However Don Walsh's post represents such ridiculous views and I can't let this go unchallenged.

You say "2) absinthe does contain a mind altering dubstance other than alcohol. This is, as yet, undetermined."

It is the thujone content of absinthe that makes it not legal. The forum timidly skirts around this issue referring to secondary effects. If I drink 3 glasses of Absinthe I experience these so called secondary (mind altering) effects before I feel any effect from the alcohol. Therefore the so called secondary effects are in fact the primary mind-altering effects of absinthe. Lets all cut the crap and stop being afraid of "Big Brother" listening in, speak our minds and stop acting like subservient wimps. Lets not act like men without dicks.

You say "3) SPEAK THE TRUTH AND FUCK THE CONSEQUENCES. First, there is no need to yell."

Sometimes you need to yell to be heard above the bleating of sheep.

You say "Second, I don't think anyone here has said anything untrue. There are certainly areas of the discussion that are subjective or up for
debate, but nobody has lied."

Come on Blackjack we all know that there are mind altering agents, (i.e mind altering drugs) in absinthe other than alcohol, let's not pretend otherwise.

You say : "We are simply seeking to conduct ourselves in a manner that best suits our goals, given the realities of the world in which we live."

Others can arse-lick the powers that control us, I'm not about to start and I'm not having others tell me that I should behave in such a way. I'll speak it as I see it and damn the consequences.

Blackjack, your intentions are decent but you have a voice, use it.

By Bob_chong on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 10:36 am: Edit

"Who is that trotting over my bridge?"

By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 10:29 am: Edit

Canute,

Dude, you must chill.

There is no reason to get so excited. Nobody here is telling you what to do or abridging your freedoms. Deep cleansing breath...

To address your points:

1) Alcohol is a drug

Nobody said it wasn't. It is, however, a legal and socially accepted drug, so on a practical level, it is a different category of thing from other drugs. There is no logic in this, I know, but this is not a logical country. This is a country where recreational use of drugs, except alcohol, caffeine and (increasingly less so) tobacco, is met with hysteria. It's stupid, but that's the way it is.

2) absinthe does contain a mind altering dubstance other than alcohol

This is, as yet, undetermined. The effects of the various herbal components of Absinthe (of which wormwood and the resulting thujone are but one) are not fully understood. Anecdotal experience seems to indicate that Absithe produces an effect different than pure alcohol, but that can be of many liquors. Most liquor contains substances, whether secifically added or as a result of thier manufacturing process, that may alter or enhance the effect of the alcohol. Tequila produces a different effect, in my experience, than, say, gin.

3) SPEAK THE TRUTH AND FUCK THE CONSEQUENCES.

First, there is no need to yell. Second, I don't think anyone here has said anything untrue. There are certainly areas of the discussion that are subjective or up for debate, but nobody has lied. We are simply seeking to conduct ourselves in a manner that best suits our goals, given the realities of the world in which we live. It is possible to speak the truth and still maintain decorum.

By Admin on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 09:55 am: Edit

that number is based on visits, not hits. the same person can still "visit" 10 times a day and it will be logged as 10 visits. it tracks it by once a person hits the site, and then leaves it. the actual hits on the forum is considerably higher ...

By Canute on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 09:54 am: Edit

Don : OK, your definition of halucinogenic and mine may be different. But whatever the difference in word definition absinthe does contain a mind altering substance other than alcohol. Like many I experience clouded vision and a degree of altering in my experience of time. This happens when I drink absinthe and not whrn I drink vodka. Why can't people on the forum admit this instead of running around pretending that the only mind altering drug in absinthe is alcohol, we all know this is crap.

For your information alcohol IS a drug. It may not be illegal but it IS a drug. I'm not classifying it as such, I'm just stating a fact. The legality of a substance doesn't determine whether it is a drug or not. I couldn't give a shit about moral-equivalence but morality is not determined by the state. If you're chosen drug is alcohol, (with added thujone) and someone elses choice is Grass, then who are you to tell them what to do. Booze kills more people than Grass, face up to reality.

Anatomist : You say "Freedom is meaningless in an environment where people cannot excercise self-control". This is horseshit, who determines what "self-control" someone should exercise, and exercising "self-control" to satisfy someone elses imposed level of acceptability is a contradiction.

I say FREEDOM WITHOUT HONEST IS MEANINGLESS. SPEAK THE TRUTH AND FUCK THE CONSEQUENCES. The only alternative is to be a timid, frightened, little toady. HYPOCRISY IS FOR MEN WITH NO BALLS.

By Anatomist1 on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 08:43 am: Edit

You have to remember that hit stats don't measure the number of visitors, but the number of hits. If one visitor goes back and forth between a couple of pages, that's 4 hits.

Hit stats aren't meaningless, but it's difficult to estimate how many hits each visitor is generating. My site gets so little traffic, I can sometimes see a trail left at an odd hour by one visitor.

K.

By Admin on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:38 am: Edit

It was 10,000+ views a month for the forum alone, a simple snafu ... which is still quite alot.

I should sell adverts.

By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 12:07 am: Edit

I think Kallisti mentioned it once...It may not have been 10000 but it was close...

By Jkk on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 11:01 pm: Edit

Where did you get the 10,000 figure anyway? It 's
hard to believe that many people know about this
forum, when I see only 10-20 individuals
contributing. Also, does anyone have any hard
evidence that the FDA or DEA or AFU or whichever
agency is monitoring us? I can't believe anyone
cares. I've been caught with absinthe at the
airport and customs didn't do a thing. They were
looking for opiates. All of this talk sounds like
a bad pot trip.

By Don_walsh on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:35 pm: Edit

Dear PV,

FDA says 'any detectable amount' of wormwood/thujone is 'excessive' in absinthe. Of course they ignore sage etc. Someone could put this to the test by attempting to commercially produce a sage liqueur, but no one is going to spend the $$ to get to that point just to feed FDA a 'poison pill'.

As to ATF they rule by regulatory fiat not law. The Code of Federal Regulations is God. And the cours are reluctant to mess with administrative law. They (ATF) have broad discretionary powers; for example they have to approve every detail of labelling of liquor and wine bottles. They get to vet the artwork! I mean, what sort of bullshit is that? The land of the free, BAH! It's the land of the sheep and the home of the shepherds.

By Chrysippvs on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:18 pm: Edit

The law is really ambigous in that case, but very clear in other areas. FDA regs say "The importation of Absinth is prohibited" While the ATF bans many herbs found in absinthe to be used in spirits. The old laws from the early 1900's are pracitcally of no relevance considering the legality on the FDA/ATF level, which essentially ban everything about absinthe excepting the word.

BTW the Excess is is legally is a more than trace amount, the curious nature of that article could be contested but it is a wildcard and can play into either's favor.

either way it will never be possible to distill absinthe here or have it imported for re-sale, as for a bottle here and there for personal comsumption seems to be perfectly legal as does consumption. In CH you can't move it, make it, nor buy/sell it, but consumption is legal since they got rid of the old constitution in which the law was passed. In some areas la bleue is given the blind eye, while in some areas like Boveresse they really crack down on it...

By Perruche_verte on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Interestingly, what is actually forbidden, according to the language on that website, is the importation of an alcoholic beverage containing "excessive" A. absinthium. That really surprised me, because it implies that non-excessive levels of A. abs. (whatever those may be) are OK.

In practice, is *any* amount deemed "excessive"?

By Chrysippvs on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Of course all the things I said before are dealing on the liter or two basis of personal consumption. Of course if you have a 30 bottle crate and are dragging it around the country you will be in a totally different legal bracket. Absinthe related laws seem to only be enforced when it is a matter of importation on the retail level, of course when taxes begin to apply.

By Don_walsh on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Justin, there are plenty of laws on the books dealing with the making, transporting, taxing, selling, and labelling of alcoholic beverages, not absinthe per se, but they don't have to be about absinthe per se. Absinthe is a liquor and so the liquor laws apply. Federal, state, and local, and often contrary and confusing.

The manufacture of absinthe is undoubyedly banned at the federal level as well as the importation. I am not sure what you mean by official importation. What is 'unofficial importation'? Is that smuggling? The happy status quo that no one is interested, does not alter the fact that US Customs regards absinthe as an 'illegal substance' (see their website!) and the laws are there in case they ever want to enforce them. No, they aren't going to kick down anyone's door to seize a bottle or two. That doesn't mean it isn't contraband. It is. However it is a lower priority enforcement problem than chasing smugglers of Amazonian green parrots, for example. No one ever got Newcastle Disease from absinthe.

By Don_walsh on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Canute seems to be pretty broad about what he thinks is a hallucinogen. In my experience, such as it is, absinthe has yet to make me hallucinate. Ever. Not even a little. Therefore I don't think wormwood, thujone, ansinthe et al are 'hallucinogenic'.

Mind altering substances in broadest terms are psychotropics of which hallucinogens are a tiny subset. I would class all thujone containing herbs as psychotropic, for what good that does.

We do seek to stress the fact that absinthe is a liqueur and not a drug. If Canute wants to classify all alcoholic beverages as drugs then he can do so but is sounds like just a rerun of the hoary old bullshit moral-equivalence argument from the 60s and 70s. "Mom and Dad have their Martinis, alcohol is a drug, so why can't I smoke pot?"

Boring!

We celebrate the difference because we don't want the assholes in government to take our favorite drink away. If that makes us hypocrites, in Canute's eyes, then hypocrites we are, and happy about it.

By Admin on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Hrrrm.... this actually ended up being an interesting thread.

The one guy, years ago, who did just that (ingest 1/4 oz of wormwood essential oil) inadvertantly caused the Gumbo Pages much heartache because some reporter linked their site to the incident. I've been aware from the beginning that this could happen here, and 60% of all the information is presented here to help PREVENT such a thing. But I would never rule it out. If I was really afraid of such consequences, these pages would have been blander than bland a long time ago.

And Ted, re: your last post ... I think the distributors make so much of thujone because WE do. They pay attention to this forum (I think) and regular posters here who infiltrate other newsgroups etc more than some would think. Personally, I don't think la Fee would have ever been made if we hadn't had sat around bitching so much.

And I know there is just one more thing ...

Oh, Justin ... is there anyway you (or someone) can distill that legal into a provable document and send to me???? I'd love to add something legit to the faq ... and I ain't no lawyer.

By Tabreaux on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Regarding Canute's quote:

"Why all the discussion about the effects and chemistry of thujone? Thujone's there for a purpose and it's purpose is why absinthe is illegal."

I think the confusion here is rooted in this viewpoint. The presence of thujone is incidental, not intentional. It only appears that it is intentional because modern distributors have used this as a propaganda tool for marketing their products. Since it appears as though modern commercial products do not contain but trace amounts of thujone, it seems to be a virtual non-issue.

By Bob_chong on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Anatomist:

"...The Asbestos Underwear threads..." Cool image. I know, I'm taking your words slighly out of context, but those threads got tugged on until they unraveled, eh?


BC

By Chrysippvs on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 01:16 pm: Edit

"DOG CHOW BRAND (rat poison)"

LOL exactly what I had in mind!

By _blackjack_ on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 01:13 pm: Edit

DOG CHOW BRAND (rat poison)

Justin-

That's what I meant. It's not ILLEGAL-illegal --yet, anyway-- and we like it that way. It's just not something you could sell for human consumption. One MIGHT even be able to make the argument that it's an herbal dietary supplement, suspended in alcohol, and thus exempt from FDA regulation, but I wouldn't want to push it...

By Chrysippvs on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 01:01 pm: Edit

"Actually, absinthe is illegal, in the US, anyway, because wormwood is not an FDA-approved food ingredient."

I have a good friend who is a lawyer and we have gone over the issue, it seems that only aspect of absinthe that is illegal is offical importation. There are no laws on the books for owning, transporting, and consuming absinthe. There are laws (although indirect) banning certain elements found in absinthe for spirits thus essentially banning production. Importation, and it seems only for resale, is the problem. I don't think one can get into any legal problems by bringing in >10 liters per month, the judge being what can be personally consumed. The FDA regs don't prevent sale, it would be like making a "rat-poison crunch" cereal, rat poison isn't illegal, it just can't be retailed for consumption kinda thing.


J

By _blackjack_ on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:59 pm: Edit

>> I agree, but out of the 10,000 people that read this forum a day (our own little absinthe newspapet) I can see the possibility much more so than not and in reality it only takes one DEA/ATF agent to get a whiff of this, do some homework, and launch a new battle in the war on drugs.. >>

Im not so much worried about that as the 14-year-old who thinks absinthe will make him see fairies, buys a bottle of wormwood oil over the net, mixes it with mom's vodka, and ends up in the hospital with renal failure. Mom then sees this site on his bookmarks and calls a press conference demanding that someone "do something to protect our children!!!"

By _blackjack_ on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Actually, absinthe is illegal, in the US, anyway, because wormwood is not an FDA-approved food ingredient. There are plenty of FDA-apporved food ingredients, like sage, that are chock-full of thujone. Thujone has not been shown to be hallucenagenic. It has, at best, been shown to be a mild convulsant.

As to why Absinthe was banned in France and Switzerland (which are the places it was really popular), it had far more to do with scapegoating by vintners trying to protect their product from prohibitionists. Keep in mind, this was the same era when ALL alcohol was banned in the US. Sure, there were all sorts of reports of Absinthe having all kinds of effects, but none any more believible than "Reefer Madness."

Why all the talk about the chemical nature of thujone? Well, for one, this place is full of chemists and they get off on that kind of thing. Second, to dispell the very myths that absinthe is something that it's not.

And, I agree, absinthe is pretty insignificant, but all it takes is the right combination of press coverage and hysteria to turn something insignificant into a National Crisis(tm). Look at the school shooting nonsense. Understanding the prohibitionistic nature of our society, and the sensitivity of the drug issue, it's better to be safe than sorry.

More to the point, it's best to be polite. You might get your point across more effectively if you turned it down a notch.

By Chrysippvs on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:50 pm: Edit

"Realistically, I think it doubtful that this tiny piece of web-real estate is going to attract the attention of any government agencies, or even any conservative policy-infulencing groups of weight."

I agree, but out of the 10,000 people that read this forum a day (our own little absinthe newspapet) I can see the possibility much more so than not and in reality it only takes one DEA/ATF agent to get a whiff of this, do some homework, and launch a new battle in the war on drugs..

By Chrysippvs on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:47 pm: Edit

Canute,

It is opinions not unlike yours that lead men like Legrain and Schmidt to destroy this aperitif (and every other herb based spirit) over 85 years ago. To think that the powers that be aren't taking heed of this novelity are naive. Blackjack has the right idea, I enjoy absinthe's quasi-legal state and don't want to push the envelope too much.

I look at history and see that absinthe was banned not because of what it was, rather because what people said it was. Honestly the truth doesn't matter in instances like this, it is all a matter of the general opinion, and the opinions making absinthe likened unto any narcotic are going to eventually push absinthe over the nice gray line it enjoys presently.

Not that I am a fan of censorship, but once Diogenes said "You were a philosopher unto you opened your mouth." and in this case, it is better to hold your tounge than lose your absinthe.

By Anatomist1 on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Realistically, I think it doubtful that this tiny piece of web-real estate is going to attract the attention of any government agencies, or even any conservative policy-infulencing groups of weight. It seems even more doubtful that a couple dozen customs violators are going to play a pivotal role in the formation of US policies. However, it just seems a matter of good living not to be your own enemy. You know, don't shit where you eat and all.

Recently, I've begun to think of this as an environmental issue. This site is the best, most honest source of information and discussion on Absinthe going. It is being sited in press as an authoritative site. It's a place where we spend our time. Do we want to hang out in a place full of hateful invectives and stupidity, or do we want to hang out in a place where people behave like men (and, perhaps, eventually women)?

I was trying to be diplomatic, Canute, but with your hysterical declarations of oppressive "ignorancy", it's becoming difficult. Freedom is meaningless in an environment where people cannot excercise self-control. When I started The Arena and The Asbestos Underwear threads, it was under the assumption that heated, off-topic arguments could be waged with civility, without degenerating into uncontrolled anger and smug namecalling. Unfortunately, I was wrong. These recent experiences, combined with dealing with a few hotheads on ebay, have caused me to reevaluate how much time I spend online. Perhaps one day, alien archeologists will define 'the Internet Age', as an era of unprecedented psyhological barbarism, when the human race's proclivity for pollution finally escaped the material realm and irreversibly poisoned the collective unconscious.

K.

By Canute on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Blackjack : In my experience absinthe IS a mild halucinogen. I've drank enough of it to know this. Why do you think it's illegal, because it contains alcohol? No, because it contains thujone, which is a mild halucinogen. It's not illegal because it's a tasty liquor.

I doubt if the DEA or anyone else pays the slightest attention to or gives a stuff what is said on this forum. This forum isn't that influential, (although reading some of the posts you'd think it was). Anyway your government and politicians don't give a shit about absinthe and it's halucinogenic qualities, (or anything else for that matter) unless there are votes or back-handers in it. (I don't think the outcome of the presidential elections will be decided on the candidates stance on absinthe). Get things in perspective, absinthe is an irrelevance and the forum even more so.

Let's all cut all this hypocrisy and stop running about maintaining that absinthe is no more than an alcoholic drink. We all know that's a load of dishonest shit. Why all the discussion about the effects and chemistry of thujone? Thujone's there for a purpose and it's purpose is why absinthe is illegal.

At least let's all be bloody honest about it.

By _blackjack_ on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 11:59 am: Edit

Canute,

It isn't hypocricy so much as practicality. Associating absinthe with herbal hallucenagens is the quickest way to get prohibitionistic forces crashing down on it in a cry of "Won't somebody please think of the children?" Of course it is absurd that we live in a society that puts people away for life for dealing pot but endorses drinking alcohol. I do't think you'll find much argment here on that. But that IS the society in which we live, so, for now, it's best we not promote associations between absinthe and recreational/meditational hallucenagens...

...especially considering that absinthe is _not_ hallucenagenic, at least according the the general experience of the users on this forum. It is a tasty herbal liquor with an interesting character, but it is in no way in the category of things like Ayahuasca.

Nobody is telling you what drugs to do or not do. We're just saying that isn't what this forum is about. Relax, have a drink (or whatever) and have some fun.

By Canute on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 10:56 am: Edit

Marc : Where do I find The Basement Shaman, is there a web-site?

I checked your web-site, Marc Campbell of the Nails, impressive stuff, quality. Much respect brother.

Anatomist : But the point of this forum is to talk about drugs, or have people forgotten what drugs are. Does this mean the only legal drug we are allowed to talk about is alcohol, (and not other legal drugs such as Ayahuasca Vine)?. Does it mean the only illegal drug we are allowed to talk about is Thujone, (and not other illegal drugs such as Ganja)?. What a bunch of ignorancy! What a bunch of hypocrisy!

Nobody tells me what not to talk about and nobody tells me what drugs not to take. Screw that.

Malhomme : Tried valium, it sucks.

By Malhomme on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:54 am: Edit

Canute,
Have you considered Valium, bromides? :)
There's certainly a lot of flaming and general messiness that goes on here (I nearly left the forum for good 6 weeks ago), but I don't think any of these posts had that intent. Certainly not my post.

By Anatomist1 on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:34 am: Edit

Canute,

I was trying to inform you about the general consensus of opinion here and the reasons for it. I think people are a bit jumpy about it, myself. However, I don't find not talking at length about drugs here to be a particular hardship, so I can go along with it.

As far as certain environmental irritants around here are concerned, I sympathize with your situation. Don't get dragged in.

K.

By Bob_chong on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:18 am: Edit

FWIW, I wasn't trying to be uptight, just explaining why I said what I said. (I know from experience--I once mentioned the scent of opium or something like that and was roundly admonished for polluting the forum as if I were a junkie.) No harm, no foul.

BC

By Marc on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 09:01 am: Edit

The vine is legal and available from The Basement
Shaman.

By Canute on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 08:57 am: Edit

Oi Bob - In case you hadn't noticed absinthe IS a mild halucinogenic. Let's not do all the hypocrite bullshit and pretend that the only mind altering ingredient in absinthe is alcohol, if you're finding that's the case then you should demand your bloody money back.

Also the Ayahuasca Vine stuff is not I believe illegal, so what's the bloody problem with mentioning it? By the reaction on this thread you'd think I was telling everybody, "shoot up some smack or snort some coke because after all there all much the same as absinthe".

Too many on this forum should save the bloody uptight hypocrite crap, lighten up, enjoy yourselves, dance, party, shag, sing, get off your faces, have a laugh, lifes too fucking short.

By Anatomist1 on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 07:51 am: Edit

Actually the vine itself is not illegal. Unless they can prove you have intent to purify the illegal substance out of it.

Funny how not talking about something takes up so many sentences...

K.

By Bob_chong on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 07:34 am: Edit

And I quote:

Oi Anatomist -
This Ayahuasca vine stuff.
Does it get you wasted?
D'Y'Know where I can get hold of any seeds?
--Canute


So while you did not say it was hallucinogenic, you did bring up a substance that contains DMT and is a DEA schedule 1 drug. That is why the gentle admonishing took place.

Also, a forum is a place for discussion, not a search engine. If all you were looking for is simple identification, there are better sources than this board.

BC

By Canute on Monday, October 30, 2000 - 07:12 am: Edit

I never said it was halucinogenic, just wondered what it was. I doubt if it's illegal either.

Lighten up for Christ's sake!

By Don_walsh on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 04:52 pm: Edit

Like the old song: Bottle of wine, fruit of the vine...

However that's a grape vine we prefer, not some amazonian strangler juice.

By Anatomist1 on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Since I was the one who mentioned it, you can email me and I'll give you an idea. Or try here:

http://www.lycaeum.org/

It's nothing like absinthe, and nothing to mess around with without serious research and preparation. Like Bob said: do your homework. If you're not willing to work hard, you'll never get ahold of it anyway.

The Forum frowns upon wide open hallucinogen discussions in order to avoid promoting undesireable associations between absinthe and other substances that are more illegal and more dangerous.

K.

By Bob_chong on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Use a search engine.

This isn't the hallucinogens forum. Or try Errorworld, I mean Erowid.

By Malhomme on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 01:42 pm: Edit

Yage. A South American vine. Pretty difficult to get here in the states. For further reading try: "The Wizard of the Upper Amazon" and "The Yage Letters", and anything by T. McKenna.

As absinthe isn't really (at all) a hallucinagen, this is pretty off topic.
Mal

By Canute on Sunday, October 29, 2000 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Does anybody know?

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