|By Anatomist1 on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:15 pm: Edit|
I don't take too kindly to defamation... particularly the craven, cowardly, anonymous variety. If you have a problem with me, my email address is freely available. I would be happy to make an appointment with you to, er, discuss the matter in person. Otherwise, keep your little opinions to yourself.
|By lurker on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 05:03 pm: Edit|
anatomist1, you seem like a Jeffery Dahmer coming out of the closet. especially after reading about your dreams. You're sick and perverted.
|By Black Rabbit on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 08:36 am: Edit|
My two cents on Waco and similar situations:
From a governmental perspective, a large, organized body with a strong ideology is bad, unless it is the government or supports at least it's principles and decisions. That is why state religions are so popular, and the Soviets had enforced state anti-religion, same effect.
A large, well armed body with a strong ideology must be destroyed, as it is a threat. Pure and simple. You make the reasons up later, to confuse and propitate the rest of your citizens.
Falun Gong. Waco. The Roman view on Christianity.
Sure, they *might* have been peaceful, but governments tend to deal in worst case scenarios. To the ATF, the Branch Davidians were fox living in the henhouse, which hadn't eaten any chickens *yet.* But why take the chance, eh?
God shed his grace on thee...
|By tourist on Thursday, August 31, 2000 - 12:16 am: Edit|
Good idea. There is plenty to read that has to do with absinthe.
|By malhomme on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 09:33 pm: Edit|
OT, but my two-cents....
I was living in Waco at the time of the incident. I remember helicopters flying low overhead at all hours, spotlights on, illuminating our street, still ten miles away from the compound. EVERY NIGHT.
It felt like harassment.
I remember the billboards placed all over McClennan County that read: "ATF/FBI, WACO SAYS THANKS." (Can anyone say "Uncle Joe"(Stalin)?) No one that I met, in all the years I lived in Waco, ever felt any since of gratitude for the massacre at the Mt. Not one person.
The Feds killed our citizens, ultimately in the name of child protection, but only after the weapons charges were all too weak to support. This was the most appalling bit of slight-of-hand I have ever witnessed. And they, the Feds, were largely successful. Most of the nation still believes that the Davidians had it coming to them. They probably think Waco is full of wack-o's. This is unfair and incorrect.
The horrible thing about what the Feds did is that they strong-armed a group of people on the flimsiest of charges. This, when a local sheriff would, and had several times, sufficed. Then they harassed us, as though we were to blame. Then they lied about it. Then they inundated us with propaganda to wash it all away.
(As Don mentioned earlier, this is remarkably close to what happened in Philadelphia with M.O.V.E. I might disagree with Don, as I still believe the Davidians set fire to their compound. In the first days of the siege there was limited contact between the compound and the outside world. Vernon was using an AM talk-radio show as his communication. I called into the show and commented that I believed the siege would end in flames, just as what happened with M.O.V.E in Philadelphia. I have to believe that they were listing to these comments and took this as an idea to solve all of their problems. There was already a precedent. And this was their "out".)
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 04:34 pm: Edit|
There are plenty of other threads for you to lurk in. We don't take kindly to censorship around here.
You're a tourist, so, travel elsewhere.
Having said that, I am done on the subject of Waco. It was a disaster, plain and simple.
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 03:50 pm: Edit|
Yeah. I saw that strip a while back. I was a more than a little put off by the mood music and the hysterical tone. I felt like I was being manipulated by a piece of propaganda, rather than being given the facts. I also saw the government rebuttle on Nightline, which used the same camera shots, plus others and satellite shots to debunk several of their examples just as convincingly.
Moving pictures with sound remains the most mediated, suspicious way to make a point without the audiences stream of consciousness being polluted by pesky objections and skepticisms.
I wasn't trying to make any claims about a particular instance, just a general observation about what kind of behavior leads to what.
I say, if you really want to avoid FBI raids, you need to get yourself a nationally syndicated cooking show, and film it in the kitchen of a downtown, highrise apartment. Have you ever heard of the feds storming in on someone tenderizing a pork loin in front of cameras hooked to live satellite feeds?
|By tourist on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 03:40 pm: Edit|
For the love of God, delete this thread.
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 03:06 pm: Edit|
David Koresh's neighbors liked him. Even the Waco police chief liked him. He and his commune members were considered to be polite and unobstrusive by the people of Waco. Again, I recommend seeing "Waco, Rules Of Engagement"
for an insight to what really happened in Waco.
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 02:28 pm: Edit|
Oh the Waco/Ruby Ridge thing again...
What I find interesting about this, is that nearly everyone seems to puff out their chest and wax indignant over what happened, yet no one seems to discuss what seems so obvious to me: the issue of foresight and consequences.
Let's posit for a moment that you have an inordinate concern about being harrassed, raided, shot, imprisoned, etc... by agents of the US government. Which of the following courses of action seems more prudent?
A) Buy large quantities of powerful weapons. Build a military-style compound in an isolated location. Proselytize fiercely about the evil nature of the government, often implying that when the shit hits the fan, you and your group are going to go down shooting. Conduct commando-esque military drills in your area. Scare the hell out of your neighbors.
B) Just live your life and don't worry about it too much.
Obviously, the way the federal government handles these situations is scary, and should be changed. But, it's not like such raids are a big surprise, at least not to the observant.
I guess what I'm saying is that certain kinds of behavior preciptate certain kinds of reactions from the universe. Chest thumping and indignation makes good theatre, but it isn't exactly a learning aid.
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 12:37 pm: Edit|
For a chilling inside look at the Waco massacre,
I recommend the documentary film "Waco, Rules Of Engagement".
|By Don Walsh on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 11:55 am: Edit|
I am old enough to remember when the Reagan Campaign pledged to disestablish ATF because of its gross abuses of civil liberties in the 1970s. They betrayed that platform plank at the behest of AG Ed Meese and disgustingly of Neal Knox of the NRA. But it was a close run thing. I remember when every ATF agent was knocking on the doors of other law enforcement agencies looking for a job.
Well, in the 1990s history repeated itself and this time it was a Democratic administration in power. Waco had nothing to do with religion? Maybe not. However, the guy was an ATF licensed registered Class III machine gun dealer. The ATF cowboys decided to have a media event raid, and brought the press along. Things didn't go their way, partly because they managed to shoot a couple of their own men with classified armor piercing tubular ammunition they wren't supposed to have -- in the backs. I know a little about this because I know who designed the ammunition, who it was intended for, who manufactured it and how it worked. I know because I helped them. I spend an entire career working on that sort of thing for those sorts of folks.
Exit the ATF. Enter the FBI and HRT and Janet Reno's ego. In the end, they did much the same as they had done a couple decades previously in Philadelphia. That time it was black militants in a compound again with wives and kids inside. Another 'nonincendiary pyrotechnic device' was introduced by Philly PD but supplied by an FBI agent. Wow. A major fire. Lots of people dead including women and kids. Gee. Anyone see any similarity?
|By blackjack on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 11:04 am: Edit|
Keep in mind the Waco raid was initiated because the BD's had failed to pay all of the taxes on Class III weapons that they legally owned. The ATF had no evidence that they had ILLEGAL weapons.
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 10:47 am: Edit|
What about innocent children?
|By Mr. Wormwood on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 10:29 am: Edit|
NOT OFF THE TOPIC
The last posts were an attempt to make clear exactly what can and has happened to people who violate the rules the ATF is employed to enforce.
I would hate to see photos at the press conferance of your cold lifeless body with a bullet in your head lying next to your "minature distillation machine".
The suspect was in clear violation of Federal Laws and he had locked his door. As he himself used to always say "An innocent man has nothing to hide."
|By tourist on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 08:15 am: Edit|
Waco had nothing to do with religion. They were trying to arrest David Koresh (formerly Vernon Howell) on federal weapons charges and search the group's compound for submachine guns and homemade bombs. An innocent man has nothing to hide.
This has nothing to do with absinthe.
|By Don Walsh on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 02:28 am: Edit|
Well, they weren't so apathetic in Okla.City. Not that I agree with that response, you understand. I don't believe in terrorism, home grown or otherwise.
However, to steer this back to topic, the US law on stills are draconian, non-intent (i.e., the prosecution has no mens rae burden -- these are TAX laws) and enforced by selfimportant buffoons with a tendency to hot-dog. Therefore, don't tug on Superman's cape, is my advice.
|By Marc on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 01:06 am: Edit|
you're absolutely right. It is unbelievable that something like Waco could occur in the USA and that the American public's response would be one of apathy , complete ignorance or, even worse, approval.
So much for freedom of religion.
|By Don Walsh on Wednesday, August 30, 2000 - 12:25 am: Edit|
Anybody who thinks the ATF is a joke has forgotten Ruby Ridge and Waco. (Yeah I know that the FBI HRT and the US Marshals Service had a piece of these too.)
Anyone who has ever had to do business with ATF knows they take themselves far too seriously and likewise the often asinine laws they enforce.
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 10:46 pm: Edit|
Bibo ergo Cado....Verlaine should have had worn a shirt with that on it...
|By Krystofa on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 09:38 pm: Edit|
Mr. Wormwood, I believe I blew a testicle from laughing so hard. Highlight of my evening (yes, that is sad) thanx.
Bibo Ergo Cado,
|By Mr. Wormwood on Tuesday, August 29, 2000 - 04:23 am: Edit|
If that still is not a funny enough joke, and the price tag didn't make you laugh.
NOTE: Under the laws of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, this still is exempt from regulations for setting up and registration of
distilling apparatus provided that it is not used for distilling.
Also Note: Under the laws of the United States and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, this pistol is exempt from all regulations pertaining to murder, provided that I never shoot anyone with it.
Just another note: Under the laws of the United States my car is exempt from all speed limit regulations, provided I never drive it faster than the posted speed limit.
|By tabreaux on Monday, August 28, 2000 - 08:14 pm: Edit|
This is useless for distilling absinthe. Even where distilling wine is concerned, a micro-scale distillation kit can be had for <$150.
|By Chrysippvs on Monday, August 28, 2000 - 05:03 pm: Edit|
In other words, Build your own bomb for only 499.95!
|By Still Man on Monday, August 28, 2000 - 04:56 pm: Edit|
is like 6" long and the height is 12"-14" high. Exclusive! Make Your Own Absinthe with this Miniature Distilling Machine. The chemistry set for connoisseurs. Satisfy your thirst for experimentation and for good, full-proof spirits. This is a working version of the professional apparatus used by the world's finest distilleries. Put in your favorite wine, aperitif, beer, ale or stout and transform them into hearty grappas,
eau de vies, distilled brandies and whiskeys. Crafted with style and precision, it makes a fascinating display. $499.95.
(NOTE: Under the laws of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, this still is exempt from regulations for setting up and registration of
distilling apparatus provided that it is not used for distilling.)
Please let us know if you have any futher questions or concerns that we
can assist you with.
The Still Man
|Administrator's Control Panel -- Board Moderators Only|
Administer Page |Delete Conversation |Close Conversation |Move Conversation