Please assist a neophyte with information: deva 70

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Archive through December 13, 2000  27   12/13 09:25am

By Don_walsh on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 10:21 am: Edit

blackjack, put not your faith in constitutions outside of the US. In some ways even inside.

10-20 years ago people could still, with some effort, own guns in UK, Australia etc. No more. I had friends coaching the Scotland national pistol team, etc. Now, I doubt such an institution can exist. Maybe target pistols lockup up at the shooting range. Maybe not even that.

In Thailand, Thais and permanent residents can own certain firearms (including some we would find odd, like pistolized shotguns) if you are wealthy ($5000 US equiv. in the bank in savings) and willing to pay the extortionate local prices on firearms and ammunition due to tax. I have known wealthy Thais who lawfully owned many hundreds of guns.

The poor can buy guns on the black market but face stiff penalties if caught. Particularly the case with 'war weapons' which abound. And for all that there is little gun related crime, or crime of any sort.

The English speaking countries have a better record on freedom of speech. Thailand is good in this regard but other Southeast Asian nations, possibly excepting the Phillipines, not so. Ask the political opposition in Burma, Singapore, Indonesia, or Malaysia about freedom of speech or assembly. I won't bother to mention the former Indochina nations, it's a joke.

By Pikkle on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 06:59 am: Edit

50 hours a week would be a part time job for
me... I will never complain about this country,
as much as it seems we work ourselve to
death... we really have the best of almost
everything, a vast land of varying climates and
landscapes to explore, large and
sophisticated metropolitan areas, freedoms
not enjoyed in most other parts of the world... I
was in Copenhagan years ago, hanging out
with some local fellows... they told me at one
point in the night that if they so choose to
express themselves as such, they could flip
off a cop and he could do nothing about it... not
ten minutes later we were walking to a bar
and while waiting for the light to change I
simply put one foot off the curb in anticipation
at which point several of them grabbed me
and pulled me back explaining that I could get
a fine for simply doing just what I'd done...
what a contradiction... no, I love living here...
insane hours and all.

By Petermarc on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 03:44 pm: Edit

mine is about 39%, including direct tax payments by my employer...i'm sure it varies...

By Germanandy on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 02:24 pm: Edit

work hard?
depends on the company you are working at.
i've worked a couple of years for bmw rolls royce aero engines (half british, half german), that kicks my ass (50 hours a week and more!!!).
now i'm working at the university in my hometown and that's quite nice, 38,5 hours a week and not more (ok, less money than before but more time to enjoy my family).


By _blackjack_ on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Well, there are some elements of the US government that I like to much to give up. I'd have to check the various constitutions to find a country that met my criteria. And, of course, all this is complicated by the additon of a whole slew of EU regulations and declarations...

I need:

1) Constitutional limits placed on the government to prevent its infringement of the right to free speech (this means the governemnt cant't have laws forbidding things like Nazi propaganda, as much as it may make me sick.)

2) Constitutional limits placed on the government to prevent its infringement of the right to bear arms (this is going to be a problem; the European view of guns is very different from ours.)

3) A constitutional seperation of legislative and executive power, e.g., no parliamentary system in which the majority party controls the executive power.

4) Legal abortion (not a personal concern, but something I think is important)

These things are pretty important to me, so much so that I'm willing to put up with too little vacation, a greedy health-care system, and an absurd drug policy.

By Malhomme on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 10:30 am: Edit

What ratio of tax-to-income (approx.) is paid in France these days?

By Petermarc on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 09:41 am: Edit

ah, the great myth...i work in france and they have installed the 35-hour work week at my office,
which entitles me to every other friday off...sounds good unless you want to make what they consider decent money (ha)or have a half-assed business situation where nothing gets done ... so i was told i could not take them off (but don't tell the inspectors if they come in to check, the company can be fined if people are caught working, when they're not supposed to be there) and basically half the office is gone each friday and the rest (usually managers)end up doing the work of the others...this was supposed to create more jobs in france, but just gives people more time off (great deal, if you can get it) with the same pay, which is pitiful, but now business can justify the poor salaries...
(oh, buy the way, the company gets a 'bribe' by the french government depending on the number of employees..i.e. 60 people = approx. 1,000,000ff a year)
however, a french employer has to pay taxes that almost equal the amount that the employee is paid
... the french government is full of idiots who have no idea how to create a real economy...the strike was invented here and the people (usually government employees) constantly fuck with the government (which usually ends up just screwing the other joes...metro, bus, air france, tgv, etc. all go on strike once every 4 months, especially if they found out that another group got some sort of concession that they didn't get)because they know the government will cave... sadly, this country exists because of outside money and if it could pull it's head out of it's ass, could really make something of itself...but then there wouldn't be time for an's fun to try to live the good life in france but a bitch if you are the one who works to create it while others enjoy it...stupeed amereecan...oh, we have good health care, but we PAY for it, too...what were we talking about? oh, yeah, deva 70%...never tried it...

By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 04:09 am: Edit

German Andy,

30 days paid holiday, its enough to tempt me to move to Germany except that I've always been under the impression that you lot work too hard in Germany. I think somewhere like Greece would suit me better. Also German weather is as bad as UK weather.


(As for the concept of a social system, I think you'd probably need to explain what this means to the Americans on the BB, as this concept does not exist in their vocabulary. I'm just glad I live in Europe.)

By Timk on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 03:19 am: Edit

Bit of a late reply but if i remember rightly, le vannoir has a damaged leech bowl cheap for sale - however ther site is down - might mail them directly though - i believe the seller tittine is Marlina from levannoir


By Germanandy on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 02:45 am: Edit


in germany i have [b]30[/b] paid hollidays, full paid sick days and so far, it's quite nice :-)
and also 1 extra free day per 1/2 year, i can visit the doctor (if i need) while working.
the whole social system isn't as good as it was but it's still ok.



By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 12:47 am: Edit


You have a simple solution. Move to Europe, the legal minimum for paid holidays is 20 days and most people view an employer who gives only 20 days holiday as a real scrooge employer. UK average is about 23 days and continental Europeans do better than us. Also in addition you'll get between 10 to 15 days public holidays (on week days) depending on which European country you choose to live in. You'll also get sick-pay for the days you're off sick, (at full pay from all but the real scumbag employers).

Think about it Blackjack, you could double (at least)the time you spend watching soap operas, chat shows and commercials. It would be like Heaven to you.


By _blackjack_ on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 08:38 pm: Edit

You're probably right about that. Agrarian labor tends to be long periods of inactivity puncuated with bursts of backbreaking work. So hours/year, they probably did do less than we do. But also consider that there was a lot of day-to-day non-work-related stuff, like chopping wood and preparing food and repairing the house that has been eliminated or reduced by modern technology, and that transportation is faster, and our general health is better. I stll think its fair to say that a larger percentage of our lifetime is spent in frivolous pursuits, especially if you take into account that we don't usually start work in childhood and usually live long enough to retire.

But, yeah, I agree agrarian society did better, leisure-wise, than Victorian industrial society. But I think we get the best deal today. I just wish I got more than 10 days of vacation, so I could watch more TV ;)

By Anatomist1 on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Yeah. The work comparisons I've read about went back much farther. With serf-lord agriculture, the might work sunup to sundown sometimes, but other times it might get slow (winter & summer), and you'd have time to do your own thing... which might still be like work, except less alienated. I was under the impression that it was less work than industrialized populations do now, and you can bet your ass it was less than individually owned family farm and ranch work.

All my relatives I know anything about come from my mother's side. They were all west Texas farmers/ranchers, and before that settlers, scouts, even indian-killers. If I got transported into one of their lives, I'd probably give out in about a week. They were tough motherfuckers.


By Black_rabbit on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 03:48 pm: Edit

1870 is maybe not the best year to start... 1670 would be better. 1870 was at the start of this industrial revolution business...

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 03:06 pm: Edit

International Comparison of Hours Worked (effectively) per Person Per Year
(Source of Data: Maddison, 1991).


So we see a reduction of 45% in the US from 1870 to 1987, with an even greater reduction everywhere but Germany and Japan. I doubt the trend could have reversed itself too much in the last 13 years.

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 02:27 pm: Edit

I'll do a little reasearch and give you some hard numbers, but the idea that leisure time is an innovation of the 20th century is not just mine; it is shared by many historians. Remember, in agrarian society, people typically work sun-up to sun-down, six days a week (seven outside christiandom). I don't know if I would have worked less 25 years ago, but I know that my grandparents worked a lot harder than I do.

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 01:43 pm: Edit


You are incorrect. People work longer hours now than they have done before, (at least in the UK anyway), working people have less leisure time now not more. The Industrial Revolution lead to more work time and less leisure time not the reverse, and in the 20th century the amount of leisure time has steadily decreased with longer working hours. Do you honestly think that you have more leisure time now than you would have had 25 years ago?

The working classes did socialise, play music, dance etc, how do you think folk music and dancing evolved? They evolved as a result of working people's leisure activities.

People used to talk to each other and socialise as part of a community. Now they just sit like morons for hours on end in front of an electronic device getting pumped with pointless drivel and commercials.


By _blackjack_ on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Don't be silly. The popularity of television was a result of the increased leisure time among the working classes afforded by technological advancement. These people didn't engage in all those lovely things you listed before because they were usually working. Leisure is a 20th century development, at least among working people.

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Technology is certainly not synonomous with progress.

Television for example is one of the curses of modern society. How much of modern man's life is wasted as he sits in silence for hours on end staring at a square box in the corner of the room, which feeds his mind a constant diet of pointless drivel. The shit that television feeds our minds is much more harmful than any of the shit we shove down our throats. Before television, man socialised with his neighbours, talked to his family, played musical instruments, read books and entertained himself in meaningful ways. Television is one of the cancers that rots our society, (or rather whatever's left of our society).

The Luddites of the early 1800's had the right idea.


By Pikkle on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 12:31 pm: Edit

Believe me... I'm in a very profit driven
industry... any automation or improvement is
not done to make the workers life easier... it's
to be able to eliminate the worker therefore
reducing costs and increasing profits... I will
say, many inventions are set upon with good
intentions, to make life better... but they are
ultimately utilized for profit... the road to hell is
paved with good intentions... as for the diet, I
spent some time in Europe, Scandanavia
mostly and I can say from limited experience
that what they eat, be it out of habit, tradition or
otherwise is far more sound nutritionally than
anything we now eat as a whole here... we
have been conditioned to eat shit and that's
what we eat...

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Some theorize that one of the main problems with the way Americans eat is that they no longer take the time for regular meals. In most of Europe, people stop their day and take the time to sit down. Oddly, this actually tends to make them eat less, since it takes time to become sated. Americans often eat on the run or at their desk, shoving food down quickly, and snacking all the time.

Again, if we'd learn to relax and not be so work driven, we'd be better off. Not to mention stress-related illness, which is a major problem in the US.

And I would counter that people have been using technology to make their lives easier long before there was even a concept of "profit." Tho laziness is not an unqualified good, it serves an important role in progress. All things in moderation...

By Pikkle on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 12:04 pm: Edit

as far as the Europeans being in better shape
than Americans, that has to do with our diet
which has to do with what the corporations
shove down our throats as being a viable form
of life sustaining energy which happened
because dumbdowning devices such as
television have been allowed to be a primary
guiding force in our lives when it should have
been a tool for education and enlightenment...
how's that for leisure! Sit around, get fat and
die... believe me, if certain companies thought
there was a market for it here, absinthe would
be legal in the U.S. faster than you could say
prohibition... and most of it would probably be
commercialized shit because the the half
naked girl on the tv set during our favorite
sitcom told us it's the best...

By Pikkle on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 11:57 am: Edit

The creation of time-saving devices has been
propogated by those who seek profit... I too
believe in this as I am one who desires profit...
but the invention of such devices also came
about through hard work and ingenuity... I work
with many people who are so focused, so
single minded about what they do, it astounds
me... I wish i had half the drive they do
sometimes... I respect them... no one should
work themselves to death, i believe everyone
should be their own barometer of their
capabilities in that regard, but i do believe a
fair amount of hard work is healthy... I just
worked another 12 hour shift and then came
home and shoveled snow for about 2 hours... I
feel great... now I'm sipping on some Segarra
and giving my brain a minor workout... that's

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 11:47 am: Edit


You are a man who of integrity as well as insight, but I'm sure going to have a damn good time for at least 1 of my weeks.

A glass of Deva has been raised to you.


By _blackjack_ on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 11:46 am: Edit

There is a strong argument that laziness has always been a major driving force in America. Remember, we had slaves to do most of the hard work for most of the first 100 years. The cotton gin and the assembly line are not the inventions of people who like hard work; they are the result of people wanting their work to be easier. It's interesting to see stuff from the 1950's, when they thought that all the labor-saving devices would be able to give us a 20-hour work week. Instead, they have simply raised our expectations of what should be done in a week. I think we should learn to relax a bit. They do it in Europe, and they haven't all atrophied. In fact, Europeans are in better physical condition, on average, than we are...

Technology can be defined as the art of going to a great deal of trouble to avoid a little bit of effort...

By Pikkle on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 11:38 am: Edit

If I spend too much time away from my
dreadful little cold mill, I get weak, i start
thinking like that, that all there is to life is
leisure and enjoyment... I forget who I am and
where I came from. No, I'd find something to
do if I had three weeks off... volunteer in
Bosnia or something horrid like that... there's
be no lying around and watching tv, no sun
bathing, no spending endless hours at the
mall wishing I could afford the things I'm
looking at... there'd be something meaningful
and character building involved definitely... it's
in the American spirit, those of us who still
have it that is... so come up with the money
and while you're spending your three weeks
sweating out course plans for the next
semester, I'll be building you a new study to
grade all those term papers...

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 11:30 am: Edit


Damn, I thought you got off on hard work, I thought you got your kicks from it, now I find out you don't do it for love but for money. Mind you I expect for every extra hour you put in at work your employer is earning more from it than you ;-)

Anyway being involved in teaching I'm looking forward to a nice long 3 week break over Christmas. Anyway I expect you'd be going out of your mind with frustration if you were me and crossing off the days before you got back to your work. Not me :-)


By Pikkle on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 11:08 am: Edit

I also like money... I get paid well for what I do
which is why I can afford expensive habits
such as drinking absinthe all the time... so
come up with the green and we'll talk...

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 09:32 am: Edit


If you've got a few hours spare you could come round to my place mow my lawn, wash my car, oh and the outside of my house needs painting. You could do all this while I sit back and sip a few ice-cool glasses of Deva.

You like hard work and I like to chill out and relax, we'd be doing each other big favours.

How about it?


By Pikkle on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 09:10 am: Edit

Hard work is what made this country great...
and that belief is being lost... I see it everyday
where I work... people doing their utmost to do
the least they can... if they put all their time and
effort into doing a good job as much as they
do trying to do nothing at all, we'd all be paying
much less for our cars... as for the rich and the
inbred, all I've seen is the inbred.

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 12:35 am: Edit


I should have noticed that you're from the UK, anyway as a contractor before long you'll probably have to get by law additional holiday pay from whoever employs you, (this'll need bloody careful policing). This is I believe is going to be EU law before long. So all is not gloom and doom.

Pikkle : "...leisure is for the rich and the inbred...", I'm neither but I sure like my leisure time, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"


By Tavis on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 12:06 am: Edit

LH, when I talked about public holidays falling on the weekend, I was referring to Spain, and I AM from the UK. Even so, Spain has EVEN MORE holidays than the UK. And as to holidays falling on the weekend, you don't mess with saint's days in Spain! And you certainly don't mess with days like the one when the people of Madrid gave Napolean what for! You leave them where they are. If the holiday falls on a Saturday then all the shops are shut, which is a bit of a bugger. Thankfully there's a 7-11 type chain in Madrid called VIPS which is open virtually every day of the year

Anyway, at the moment I get 0 days of holiday free, due to the fact that I'm an IT contractor. It's psychologically hard to take holidays when you know you PAY for not being in work as well as paying for the holiday, that said I obviously calculate my annual wages based on a 48-week year.

Now back to the thread, sort of. Thankfully I'm now more than halfway through my Mari Mayans. I've learnt my lesson, please, take it away! Okay so it wasn't back to the thread. Ho hum.

By Don_walsh on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 07:18 pm: Edit

The Thai word for leech is 'Bing' -- sorry, Crosby family...

By Bob_chong on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 02:49 pm: Edit

But even so, 4 bottles would have been $113 from SC. Hell, pour three bottles down the drain if you don't like it, or give it away, bring it to parties, whatever--anything is better than lining the Desert Leech's pockets.


By Bob_chong on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Actually, 5 bottles is the best deal (same shipping as 4), so the multiples of two thing doesn't exactly match. The shpping is best at the following breaks: 2, 5, 7, 10, 13, 15, 18, etc. I have a spreadsheet if anyone cares.


By _blackjack_ on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 02:26 pm: Edit

First of all, you're doing your conversion backwards. 55.47 euroes is $48.63. Second, only order from Spiritscorner in multiples of two bottles. You can get 2 bottles of Deva for a total of ~$60.

By Uncle_willie on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 01:41 pm: Edit

Well, this thread sure has changed!

I work for a big US company, we do about 46 hrs/week, we get 12 holidays and 10 vacation days per year, sick time as needed.

Now, back on topic, my interpretation (no brit flag on my browser) of the spiritscorner site says 12.35 euros for deva, and the cheapest shipping is airmail at 43.12 euros for a total of 55.47 euros. Today's exchange rate is $1.141/euro, so I would have to pay $63.29 as opposed to the $110 for betina. Yes, it is cheaper and the cost is dominated by shipping ($32.39 per bottle if I get 5).

I am a novice, so 1 bottle is plenty until I decide to be an afficionado, and betina's 1 week turnaround is nice. Yes, the vendor background pages scared me, and I decided on the domestic approach. I will let you know what I think about deva 70, and perhaps next time try the corner.

I really do appreciate all the feedback. Thanks again,

By Pikkle on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 01:24 pm: Edit

Some of the more progressive companies
subscibe to a more European notion of such
things... the steel industry on the other hand is
a very old, very closed minded, borderline
paranoid, slow to change old boys network... I
usually describe my company as such: A fully
integrated steel producer being dragged
kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

By _blackjack_ on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 01:18 pm: Edit

I've worked for non-profit organizations much of my life, and I've discovered that they tend to have almost European levels of vacation, to make up for the fact that they can't pay you as much. My girlfirend just started at National Geographic, and she gets 20 days of vacation.

By Pikkle on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 01:04 pm: Edit

I've been at the same company for 5 years
now and I get a whopping 12.5 days paid off a
year... on the brighter side, with all the ot I do
work I get paid for it even though I am
salaried... no exactly time and a half but it's a
little more, a pittance, just enough for the
company to be able to say 'see, we take care
of you' and then behind our backs 'heh heh,
suckers!' But if i didn't enjoy doing it, I would
do it... leisure is for the rich and the inbred.

By Joshua on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 01:00 pm: Edit

the slave ship where i work,gives us paid vacation days,but only to an extent.the "paid"part is taken out of your check into a "cash plus" account.each pay period equals out to about one day paid vacation.ah america.... maybe this isnt as ironic as it sounds,but to me it is funny,i guess they never specified where the pay in "paid vacation" comes from,i think i have used my fair amout of "" this day thank you and good night

By _blackjack_ on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 12:55 pm: Edit

Yep, 10 days of vacation is the norm, unless you've been working for the same company for a long time. And most white-collar jobs are exempt from labor regulations so they don't have to pay overtime if you're there 90 hours a week (not uncommon in the IT field).

We really need to relax.

By Pikkle on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 12:53 pm: Edit

I tend to work 7 days a week, mostly 12 hours
a day and a lot of times 16... I average over 68
hours a week most weeks... I wouldn't know
what to do with myself with weekends off or 25
days a year holiday, silly! You Europeans play
too much!

By Lordhobgoblin on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 12:25 pm: Edit


Don't the all public holidays in the USA fall on week-days? What's the point of having a public holiday on the weekend, bizzare!

In the UK we have 11 public holidays (and we're probably getting another one soon) and a minimum legal requirement of 20 days from your employer (most companies give 23 days and decent employers tend to give 25). (We also now have a maximum 48 hour working week). Minimum 20 paid holidays and maximum 48 hour week all legal requirements of EU law.

Someone once told me that in the USA 10 days holiday is the norm? And now you tell me some of your public holidays fall on the weekend!!! Why this apparant obsession in the USA with working yourselves to death?

Screw the work ethic, you only live once, you might as well enjoy it.

Come to Europe Tavis where you can chill out and enjoy life.


By Admin on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 10:15 am: Edit

Ooo, I am looking for one of these that I can afford, i.e. slightly damaged. If anyone knows ... (ebay is far and few between, and tends to the expensive). I have a small collection of apothecary stuff.

I like the ones on the stem, the ones that rest flat just look like fishbowls, heh.

The Pharmacy Museum in NOLA is one of my favorite places to go. It's on Chartres near Jackson Sq.

By Tabreaux on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 09:55 am: Edit

In the Pharmacy/Apothecaries' Museum in New Orleans, on Rue Chartres, the big French leech jar is on display and actually contains live leeches.

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