|By Admin on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 06:03 am: Edit|
I mean "modern" as in the modern period, ie post renaissance. Not as in modern caricature. Though caricature as an art form did not come into its heyday until the late 18th & early 19th century. Leonardo (lets just call him "Lenny") was fascinated by the mildly grotesque human ... and did many actual and exaggerated drawings of the ugly. I've got his sketch of the "queen of tunis" that this painting is based on somewhere ... I bought an entire book on portraiture just to get the Massys painting and a portrait (so-called) of Lucrezia Borgia. Lenny's sketch is not as nearly exquisitely ugly as they painting by Massys, but it is definately the source for it.
|By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 04:53 am: Edit|
Even Michelangelo never made 'em THAT butch. Actually, I believe Leonardo made quite a few ghoulish caricature-type sketches. What's the definition of a "modern" caricature anyway?
|By Rachel on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 02:30 am: Edit|
It was the Lewis Carroll connection that led
me to the image.
I should change my handle to Little Debbie.
Can I do that?
(playing with profile)
Well, fullname I guess will have to do.
|By Admin on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 02:27 am: Edit|
It was also the model Tenniel used for The Ugly Duchess. It is supposed to be one of the earliest modern caricatures, circa 1513 by Massys based on an earlier drawing by daVinci. Bravo, one of my favorites!
Lynda Barry is a goddess. And "Cruddy" is sublime. A knife called "little debbie" ... heehhheeee!
|By Bluedog1 on Wednesday, December 20, 2000 - 02:05 am: Edit|
Enjoyed your picture. Most attractive. It is the same painting that Steeleye Span used for the song Allison Gross on their Greatest Hits CD.
Being from the DC area, I'm a Lynda Barry fan too. We met at Jazz Fest a few years ago in the front row of the BooZoo Chavis show. There's a lot of truth stretched between her cartooning and her real life.
|By Perruche_verte on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 05:56 am: Edit|
Oh Rachel, you'll get along fine here. It's very friendly in a fierce sort of way.
Lynda Barry is cool though I don't relate to all of her work... not having ever been a big-nosed teenage girl who thought she was ugly.
|By Rachel on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 10:05 pm: Edit|
Alright, Anatomist wants to send me to
argument abuse boot camp, and Marc wants
me to uh, what were the words? Tremble like
a frog on a hot plate?
Look, Ma. I'm makin' friends!
Speaking of books, any Lynda Barry fans out
there? I just read "Cruddy" awhile back and
never felt so, well, touched.
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 07:15 pm: Edit|
I've got a book for you to read. I'll mail you one if it'll increase your chances of reading it, or you could just go get it yourself with that fat wad of nightclub dollars that's stretching your pocket and crowding your armadillo. It's related to Dancer in the Dark, somewhat in spirit and in another important way. Actually, everyone should read it because it's fucking mind-blowing: it'll make the ordinary objects around you seem like gleaming specimens of Platonistic magnificence. It's called PLANET OF THE BLIND by Stephen Kuusisto -- brought to my attention by none other than the angelic Beth Orton: it breaks my heart to think of Crohn's Disease gnawing away at her innards, but, I digress. That would make a nice epitath: "I digress".
Oh that it were so easy to make me cry. Crying is the best. Unfortunately, you'd have to practically electrocute my dog to make me cry. Sad movies can bring a welcome tear or two, as can audience acclaim or recognition for someone who I think is truly magnificent. That's why I love The Actor's Studio, on Bravo: all those elite students and directors cheering for the brilliant actors who have helped people my inner world, to turn a Shakespearean phrase... blissful.
Too bad you're so far away or I could show you how to throw your hip into a punch. Just when you start to sob, and your opponent thinks you're lame: this is the best time for a cartilidge-crushing, capillary-bursting, explosive right cross to the nose. Ahhh... victory!
|By Marc on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 05:44 pm: Edit|
I promise not to make you cry. And if I do, they will be tears of joy. Now, come on over here and let me rub your shoulders. Not all of the men in this forum are beasts. Some of us enjoy being tender and loving.Excuse me while I light a candle
and some incense. Care for some wine? Ahh, what a view we have tonight: all of Vegas spread before us like a blanket of irradiated jewels. I lean toward you, the smell of patchouli and rotted flesh overwhelms your senses and you tremble like a frog on a hotplate. As my teeth sink into your neck, your legs jerk spasmodically knocking over the candle and setting the drapery on fire. We both go up in flames. Beautiful orange and blue
flames. Our brilliance equal to that of the neon
screaming outside the window: FLAMINGO, FLAMINGO,
|By Rachel on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 04:02 pm: Edit|
I am not part of a conspiracy, but its really cute of you to think so.
And as long as you LIKE arguing, well, thats ok then too. I know plenty of people who are just the same, its all about the argument, and they love ripping in. I don't quite understand it, and when its directed at me in person I usually just cry. I tend to cry when I'm angry, which is very very frustrating. What good as that? Soon as the argument really gets in full gear I burst into tears, then my opponent just thinks I'm lame.
So maybe this forum isn't tbe best place for me to flex my, umm, muscle.
"You wouldn't want to see me when I'm angry."
- The Hulk
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 10:18 am: Edit|
Actually, I realize your message wasn't entirely pro-Betina. I was actually imagining a conspiracy where the fake personas wouldn't all be 100% positive, so as not to arouse suspicion... how's that for paranoid? I'm going to have to stop short of CIA and space alien involvement, though.
Marc is mostly right, I like to stir it up -- get into a healthy row now and then. However, I can't take his advice to just let it go, because I actually enjoy arguing. Kind of like yelling at people in traffic. The zen demeanor is one way to go, but my solution is to invent the most vile blue streak of offensive epithets I can -- hopefully ridiculous enough that I crack myself up. There's a difference between being pissed off and having a grand time being pissed off.
Anyway, I humbly apologize once again for casting suspicion upon such a pulchritudinous and apparently royal personage such as your esteemed self.
|By Pikkle on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 08:35 am: Edit|
ooh... when can we be wed???
|By Rachel on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 08:19 am: Edit|
I get it, "friendly" means "picture". Well, here
You're probably right, blackjack, and to
continue the thought, that's most likely why we
step in in times of crisis chanting "your fly is
open! ha ha!"
|By _blackjack_ on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 08:14 am: Edit|
I don't find it surprising that the hitherto-lurkers were women, considering the amount of dick-waving that goes on here...
|By Pikkle on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 07:35 am: Edit|
Where's the picture Rachel?
|By Rachel on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 07:02 am: Edit|
I can understand the mistake, I've seen plenty
of what looks like shills (sp?) myself. But if
you read my post carefully, its not pro-betina at
all. Or if it appears that way, it was not my
intention. Rather it was the nature of hysteria
on both sides that gave me the courage to
pipe up. My point was more aimed at Daria,
whose motives seemed right, but that the
assumption was Betina had been mortally
defamed here, when the harshest words were
mainly that her prices were high. You say
she's been using scare tactics to steer
customers to her, well, I don't know anything
about that. But ulterior motives by other
members have been systematically delt with
and Betina's continuing concern, and
adherence to, appears to be a bit paranoid.
I don't doubt that she does right by her
customers, all the evidence points in that
direction, and, like Marc says, she's certainly
been a pioneer, but with all her success &
happy customers, why the continued
suspicions & accusations? Even if she were
right, why should she care? Who's out to get
her? I don't necessarily condone the
occasional slur against her mercenary
practices (hi, bob!), but it *is* a public forum,
and we should ignore these things or learn to
deal with them. Every slur is not a call to
I updated my bio last night to not appear so
mysterious & unfriendly. Hi all!
|By Anatomist1 on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 01:41 am: Edit|
OK. My apologies to Rachel, who appears to be a real person. That was just about the third new name I clicked on in the last couple of days that had a blank profile page, so I was beginning to suspect that something was truly amiss, especially in this context.
Obviously, Bettina has a few supporters as well as detractors. I inquired with her when I first came to the forum, and received a long, verbose email that carried the definite implication that ordering absinthe from overseas involved a high risk of stolen money, broken bottles, and legal jeopardy to the tune of customs agents showing up AT MY DOOR. Since I can't afford her prices, the decision to hit the delete button was an easy one, but even then I found that the bullying, cloak-and-dagger tone rubbed me the wrong way.
Later, in a thread in which I was calling contemporary mental health concepts and treatments into question, I replied to one of her posts only to find no posts on the entire forum from her for many months.
Add to these personal experiences a steady stream of newbies beaming about their $100 bottles of Deva, worries about customs agents knocking on their door, and, recently, concerns about the "instability" of 100 proof absinthe... I don't find the adjective 'shadowy' inappropriate at all. And, I don't find the prospect that such a business person would invent a half-dozen fake individuals with hastily contrived or nonexistent profiles to defend herself here to be improbable either.
Marc, you know Bettina personally and you like her, and that's fine. I don't. I only know her way of doing business, first and second hand. For all I know, Bill Gates is a wonderfully kind and generous fellow in person -- it's not going to stop me from criticizing his business practices, or from being suspicious of everything he says.
Oh, and I've been eating 'artist's block' for breakfast for about six months now. What else you got? When I get back in the studio, you'll know it, because I won't have time for long-winded posts like this one.
|By Marc on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 10:56 pm: Edit|
you're a drama queen. Albeit, a very butch one. There's nothing shadowy about Betty. I've met her.Ted knows her. Anyone who purchases from her
has her address and phone number. Let's stop it with this intrigue. Questioning Rachel's identity
is the stuff of cheap dime novels. What's wrong? Suffering from artist's block? Your anger would be better channelled into your artwork. You,re coming off like some kind of punk rube. I generally agree with you, but lately it seems you've got some kind of bug up your ass. Always looking for a fight.
I have received plenty of e-mail over the past two years from people who find the tone of the absinthe forum to be abrasive, elitist and paranoid. In the beginning I felt the same way. Still do on occasion. But, I've learned to deal with the bad vibes. Ignore them.
|By Don_walsh on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 08:52 pm: Edit|
Thanks, Rachel, you are eloquent and even handed.
|By Rachel on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 08:51 pm: Edit|
We all have to have a first post sometime.
Maybe I should have waited for a less heated
discussion to jump in.
|By Anatomist1 on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 07:35 pm: Edit|
I think you can add willful obfuscation and bludgeoning of the unwary via silver-tongued emails to the charges, Rachel... that is, if your name really is Rachel.
How come so many no-profile people who claim to have been long-time lurkers are suddenly surfacing? I find the idea that certain people have hitherto been afraid to post here simultaneously quaint and sad. Since when, in the history of civilization, have such fearstricken, rabbit-like entities ever been taken into account anywhere, by anyone?
Look folks. If you want to be taken seriously, you have to lay something on the table, and you have to be available for cross-examination. Put your electrons where your keyboard is. A couple of unknowns come on and bewail the lowly state of internet relations vis a vis a shadowy profiteer, and we're supposed to jump? Sure, nastiness is nasty... so what? So I say to you Ms. Rachel and Ms. Daria, how have you achieved your lofty estate, whereupon you look down on us lowly infants? Who are you? Everything from the virtue of Jesus to the redeeming value of "emoticons" to the essential nature of absinthe has been tossed around here. Why is it that you declare yourself only now?
|By Rachel on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 03:31 pm: Edit|
I think the only thing Betina has been accused
of is that her prices are high. Even her
detractors in that regard mostly concede she
has exceptional skills in customer service
and in all other matters has done well by her
customers. She certainly fills a niche as it
appears she's done well, just as the other
distributors fill their niches. Though it seems
that her claims regarding customs has raised
some suspicions as to her motive for making
such a claim. I personally have had many
orders come from overseas, once one was
even opened and inspected by customs (it
arrived covered in tape saying "opened by
customs" all over it), but never had a problem.
It seems to me, as a lurker, that there has
been alot of misconceptions and innacurate
conclusions drawn, and as with the nature of
most online discourse, this can quickly
degenerate into name calling on both sides,
which is unseemly & discouraging.
"can't we all get along" may seem trite, but it is
fairly obvious to those of us who *can* see the
forest for the trees that it is rather ludicrous for
the bickering and misunderstandings to
continue when, at heart, we're all here all here
for similar reasons.
I agree with you Daria, on your main point
about giving it all a rest and supporting
eachother, but to support the idea that there is
a secret cabal of conspiritors out there to rub
out and defame the competition is a little
It is understandable that such conclusions
have been drawn, now and in the past, but as
each of these issues has come up, they have
been addressed and dispelled for the most
part. If we are to take a distillers word on
whether or not their product contains a.
absinthium, why not our own members when
they state the nature of their business
associations? I think it was addressed in the
*other* thread that BEI & BEL, though similar
in name, are not , in fact, associated business
|By Don_walsh on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 11:41 am: Edit|
I think I said much the same, but admittedly, less eloquently, in the other thread.
|By Pikkle on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 11:24 am: Edit|
Yes, please all stop... I'm getting a headache
and may need another drink...
|By Anatomist1 on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 11:23 am: Edit|
"But I held this forum in such a high regard
because it refused to embrace such people"...
You haven't been here very long have you? Thanks for the melodrama, but this forum degenerates into hotheaded arguments on a fairly regular basis. Get used to it, or hide for a while until the smoke clears. It's just the way things go. People that want to fight have to get it out of their system -- impassioned calls to magnanimity are no substitute for the taste of blood.
|By Don_walsh on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 10:54 am: Edit|
Anyone can look and see that is was Betty that originated that thread and attacked Bob, Ted, Justin, and myself.
Anyone who didn't like that thread can complain to Betty.
She published the same claptrap on Absinthe Portal. I have only ever posted once of\n that board, so I will leave any response there to others.
|By Don_walsh on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 10:51 am: Edit|
Well, fuck you too. Always!
|By Absinthelair on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 09:27 am: Edit|
Are we a bunch of little children or can we behave as adults here? I have enjoyed this forum in the past but have not been able to tolerate the recent attacks spewing back and forth and it has got to stop.
I thought this forum was supposed to be a gathering place of like-minded and gracious individuals who have a genuine interest in all things absinthe. However, it has become a forum of personal attacks and petty jealousies and there are already too many forums out there filled with the same vile nonsense. It's a shame to put this forum in the same category as the others but, sadly, that's what it's become.
It's not unique that some individuals thrive on hatred, ignorance and conflict. But I held this forum in such a high regard because it refused to embrace such people and I genuinely hate to see it succumb to the mindless behavior of a few intolerant people.
I am proposing that people stop responding to the obvious infants in this forum so that they will go elsewhere with their nastiness. Is this something that the reasonable adults of this forum can live with? If not, maybe this forum should be done away with.
And I will once again defend Betty of Betina Elixirs for her highly ethical and dependable service. Those of us who buy absinthe from her do not feel we are being ripped off and will continue to support her despite the constant harassment of certain individuals who need not be named.
For those of you who are trying to harm her, you will NEVER get my business. NEVER.
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