Star anis

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archives Thru July 2001: Topics Archived Thru Feb 2001:Star anis
By Martin on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 07:13 am: Edit

They better not dare remake Willy Wonka. What the hell is wrong with the original? Do they not like all the singing? I can imagine it without the singing, but I don't see how they could change any other part of it without totally ruining it. I can imagine some weird, dark, Tim Burton-esque version of it, but I don't think it would be right. What makes the first one so good is the fiendish subtlety. If Burton were to do it, there wouldn't be any subtlety at all and it would be forever ruined. What would be nice is if someone could make a SIMILAR movie, but have it be a totally different story. There hasn't been enough good, subtle dark movies lately.

-Martin

By _Blackjack on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 01:30 am: Edit

The adaptation of Matilda they did a few years back was actually quite good, and suitibly dark, contrary to the saccherine marketing campaign. I would have missed it had they not been showing it on a bus trip to New York.

They showed "Sister Act 2" on the way back...not so good...

By Tavis on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 12:23 am: Edit

Roald Dahl is a god. AFAIK, none of his books are purely works for children, they work on many levels.

By _Blackjack on Thursday, February 01, 2001 - 12:23 am: Edit

I don't know if the Tim Burton part was true either. It isn't listed as an upcoming project on IMDB.

Burton IS remaking Planet of the Apes, tho...

By Anatomist1 on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 08:56 pm: Edit

Tim Burton should be ashamed of himself. He has better things to do than remake a perfect movie. That's the dumbest thing I've heard since the remake of Psycho.

K.

By Black_Rabbit on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 05:09 pm: Edit

BAHAHAHAAHAAA!

Oh, my god. Tee hee!

Gene Wilder is a thousand thousand times more Evil than Marilyn Manson, and far, far creepier.

I think Tim Burton should make that movie. But he should use Gene. And make Marilyn the big skinny kid that dies when he eats some untested chewing gum- they could have it erupt and cover his head, suffocating him. Only, they could really do it, for realism's sake, but not tell Marilyn it's coming, like that scene in Alien.

That would be cool.

By _Blackjack on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 03:59 pm: Edit

There is a rumor flying around (now debunked) that Marilyn Manson was going to play Willy Wonka in the Tim Burton remake. MM did make some comments in an interview about wanting to play the character as, basically, Satan, tempting kids to do evil...

By Black_Rabbit on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 03:46 pm: Edit

The Oompa Loompas still creep me out.

I saw on TV an Ooompa Loompa riding a skateboard down the street. Rail sliding, flips, you name it, he was doing all kinds of wacky tricks. Freaked people out too, seeing his orange face and overalls just zippin on by.

I wonder where they found a dwarf skateboarder of that level of skill? Do you take out an ad in the paper or something?

By Martin on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 02:46 pm: Edit

I was obsessed with Willy Wonka when I was a kid. I'm not sure why... I just really loved that movie. I probably watched it 200 times when I was in kindergarten. Man, I miss our old Beta machine. Now that I'm older, I can really appreciate all the dark stuff going on. It kinda disturbs me now thinking how much I used to enjoy it. I'm sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that its at least partially responsible for me being the person I am today. Creepy.

-Martin

By _Blackjack on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 11:10 am: Edit

It scared the living heck out of me as a kid..."but, mom, he killed all those kids..."

By Malhomme on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 09:11 am: Edit

It's funny because it's true!!!
Homer

By Bob_Chong on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 08:58 am: Edit

Like Bugs Bunny, it works on more than one level.

By Joshua on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 08:54 am: Edit

i love that movie,ive always had my doubts as it being a childrens movie though.

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

A masterpiece of black humor, much underappreciated by the intellectual sloths of the world is Willie Wonka and the Chocolate factory.

"Stop! No!" in a stage whisper...

Gene Wilder at his finest.

By Tcsmit on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 05:01 am: Edit

Maybe this is a hint that Ted's new absinthe will be "fizzy-lifting".

By Petermarc on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 03:56 am: Edit

ah, so ted has the recipe for the everlasting gob-stopper, also?

By Bob_Chong on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 12:11 am: Edit

So shines a good deed in a weary world.

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 11:54 pm: Edit

It was actually Willy Wonka.

By Malhomme on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 10:39 pm: Edit

FWIW
I understood that it was Nestle not Hershey's. Is this not correct?
mal

By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Nope matter being of fact the Pernod Factory was used to house injured persons during the war as a PR movement. This may have allowed them to continue selling off the "remainders" of the absinthe stock even through WWII until the Germans instituted that all herbal Spirits be banned. I can see it

"Hill's!
Himmler's Choice Absinthe"

I often must that most of the stills were send to Terragona to set things up there. Since the recipies were practically the same and it appears that the herbs were still being imported from that region hence the farmers will making a living post ban. All a curious legacy...

By Artemis on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 09:06 pm: Edit

Now that would be interesting. A firsthand look at some of that equipment, if it's still around, might answer some of the questions some of us have tried to puzzle out by looking at those old drawings.

I was going on the assumption it had all been melted down and sent speeding toward the Germans in one of the wars.

By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 07:54 pm: Edit

from what I understand there is some old Pernod Stuff in there for tours and such...

By Artemis on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 06:19 pm: Edit

No shame in Hershey's chocolate.

It WOULD be a shame if Hershey's followed Pernod absinthe out of the world.

By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 04:47 pm: Edit

It was and is a Hershey's chocolate factory. Real Shame huh?

By Grimbergen on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Tim,

Check out the picture of the of the Pontarlier-Anis still. It's hard to see, but it looks almost identical to the Pernod stills.
http://www.pontarlier-anis.com/uk/visite/

On a different note, what ever happened to the Pernod factory? Was it another casualty of WWII? Is it still around?

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I have examined several different still designs from that period. They vary widely, some being certainly better than others. I have seen heads which range from the suspension 'gin' style head you mention, expansion heads, and condensing heads. In many cases, it is difficult to tell without being able to get a close inspection. Likewise, I have seen various types of heat sources, which range from direct flame to steam boiler. Vacuum stills were quite advanced for the day. Regardless, different stills tend to give different performance and different results. The Pernod Fils distillery was very advanced. Finally, the 'gin head' is a very clever design and can be quite useful.

Regarding the quality of spirits, sources and standards of alcohol were quite different back then. Redistilling less-than-acceptable alcohol to remove impurities (on such a large scale) would have presented a considerable increase in costs.

By Timk on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 02:31 pm: Edit

Soz Ted, i seem to remember someone on the forum mentioning that b4 - thaught u got us confused : - )

btw. If you look at the pictures of the stills in the Frenchman's pernod catalogue - is that a 'Gin Head' on the still - maybe they used old gin stills, obviously they wouldnt use a gin head, being that they state that they distill from a maceration? - also, I presume that they did not used to use a vacuum in their double boilers, so anyone got any idea of the atmospheric pressure in Pontarlier, or am i wrong, did they use a vacuum still?

Also, if they had reflux stills, why the hell did the use of wine spirits matter- the product you get out would be pretty damn pure - especially if done at altitude, or in a partial vacuum.

Tim

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 09:12 am: Edit

Well, I think I can state categorically without violating my instructions from Ted:

There is NO licorice root in any JL product.

I still have every gram of the Kg that I bought last year, Ted just insists I keep it on opposite side of the facility from everything else.

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 07:53 am: Edit

Of course it wasn't a quote from you, unless you wrote Monty Python scripts. Lighten up, it was a joke.

By Timk on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 07:28 am: Edit

"no one expects a Spanish inquisition."

That wasnt a quote from me Ted, and please, dont patronise me

Tim

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 02:29 am: Edit

"HAHAHAHAHA...."

Tim is being naughty (again). Remember Tim, no one expects a Spanish inquisition.


"I once bought a kilo of Licorice Root and he just about went ballistic...--Don"

That is because we are not making pastis! I like star anise when it is used *properly*. Meanwhile, we use whatever we have to use to make each particular product correctly. As far as what that may be, it varies, but we'd like you to taste and tell us your best guesses.


"PS: Did you invest any thoughts about availability in Europe? Don´t forget us!!"

Europe will certainly not be left out.

By Timk on Tuesday, January 30, 2001 - 12:36 am: Edit

"...about 2 qualities of your Absinth after... "

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

By Bob_Chong on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 11:44 pm: Edit

PV:

No harm intended. I was just recalling something I read last summer that stuck with me for some reason:

"If you think Ted dislikes star anise,, let me tell you, I once bought a kilo of Licorice Root and he just about went ballistic...--Don, Thursday, July 06, 2000 - 02:55 am

../16/202.html?FridayJuly720001024pm#POST851

How's that for a broken tree limb?

BC

By Perruche_Verte on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 11:23 pm: Edit

And I am sorry if my question about star anise helped spark some controversy here. Yes, Bob, I did have a thought or two in my little pointy head about what the forthcoming absinthe was likely to contain. I asked a question. It was answered by not being answered. No problems there. I respect the work Ted and Don are doing and look forward to its results.

By Aion on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 10:41 pm: Edit

Ted and Don,
don´t think even one second about 2 qualities of your Absinth - not after years of going the long, hard and painful way perfectionists have to go.
No commercial compromises, only the taste as close to original taste is what counts.
Everybody who makes such proposals should note,
that the luxury product - then made in even smaller quantities - would become even more expensive.
The only point I am worried about, are the people
ready for the best, the original taste?
Will the people (not the contributors to this forum) like the taste of a superior product.
Just look around everywhere and you will see that products (is it food, music, ...) have to be bad
to be successful and to be even more successful you just have to solve the problem to undergo the standards believed to be the lowest possible.
The price of your product will surley play a major role, but if it is as good as I expect it to be, I think the pleasure of having the best only once a week is much more satisfying than being drunk of inferior garbage every day.
A.H.

PS: Did you invest any thoughts about availability in Europe? Don´t forget us!!

By Admin on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 07:48 pm: Edit

I'm beginning to feel the love...

By Tabreaux on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 05:34 pm: Edit

Your statement makes perfect sense. We don't find offense in disagreement. We do find offense when we feel our credibility and integrity are being challenged over minutia.

We will deliver everything we've promised and then some. That's all that matters regarding JL. Until then, it may as well not even exist.

Once again, my apologies for being 'tart'.

By Black_Rabbit on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Luger,

'So anyone that doesn´t agree about everything is attacking JL? The truth often differs with the view,,, '

Nope. Not at all- but it could sure as hell seem that way to JL.

If Ted and Don take disagreement with a grain of salt, and the rest of us take their reticence with one, it may reduce the number of attacks and increase the number of interesting posts.

By Luger on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 04:12 pm: Edit

Hi guys, just got home from work!


> Everyone and their brother will challenge what >you say and expect you to back down or
>back it up.

That´s how it is! Like it or not.

>Since you and Don are partnered in JL, any and >all of this could be seen as an attack on JL...

So anyone that doesn´t agree about everything is attacking JL? The truth often differs with the view,,,


>but is probably more
>a response of frustration than an attack.

Frustation? Feeling better than ever. I have just moved to a marvelous place :-) Promoted at work some months ago.


>Luger:
>"But since the scientist is not willing to share >those results, it means nothing."

>Having information that you want to release but >cannot, is like having an itch you cannot >scratch. Not releasing it
>before it is soundly proven however would make me >a bad scientist, which I am not. When it is >released, you may
>very well be awestruck, and you will certainly >understand why I released it when I did and the >way I did.

I look forward to that, but until then, as a thinking person, what am I to believe? You are not the first guy who claims something he cannot back up with words.

>Until
>then, some may consider me an 'asshole'

Others may have said that, I have not. Namecalling , threats of murder e.t.c are too common on the Forum, my intention was *not* to fuel these fires.
I was simply responding to the remarks about the translated texts, nothing else.

Best regards, Luger

By Tabreaux on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 02:40 pm: Edit

Quite honestly Mr. Rabbit, your assessment appears to be a dead-accurate overview of the situation.

By Black_Rabbit on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Ted, the 'undermining' you perceive might have it's origins in the fact that you are certainly very knowledgeable about absinthe, and are perceived as such (by the veterans especially) but that you can't really back it up too much anymore without giving away trade secrets and the like.

A lot of your posts now seem to me to boil down to'no, actually. I can't tell you why, but you are totally wrong.' Ultimately, you will back it all up with your product... but in the meanwhile, it will come off a little funny, especially to newbies. Naturally, when you challenge someone's view, and they want clarification you can't afford to let slip, they will get pissy.

Look at this place- if you can't back up your assertion that VHS is better than Beta with some kind of 200 page study, an electronics degree, and a Cuneiform tablet written by a prophet specializing in VCRs 6000 years ago, well, you ain't got shit. ;-) Everyone and their brother will challenge what you say and expect you to back down or back it up, but you are in the unenviable position of being able to do neither (being right but unable to explain why.)

Don, for his part, busts a lot of peoples balls... whether they deserve it or not is not something I am making a judgement on- but it will have the effect of 'drawing fire' either way.

So any question you can't answer (for good reason)could cause an attack, and any ball busting will almost certainly.

Since you and Don are partnered in JL, any and all of this could be seen as an attack on JL... but is probably more a response of frustration than an attack.

My two cents, and I am indeed wearing my Asbestos Underwear in case you (or Don) take this in a spirit other than that in which it was intended (friendly, so you don't have to ask...)

By Tabreaux on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 10:55 am: Edit

Artemis:
"If you mean you perceived some attempt at an insult, none was intended."

Fair enough. I perceive some responses aimed at me to be rather abrasive, and unfortunately, I oftentimes feel compelled to return the friction. That's how the ruckus got started, and I simply fueled it (bad decision on my part).

Quite honestly, I feel that the efforts of Don and myself are selectively and unfairly criticized at times on this BB, and this criticism carries a certain 'undermining' tone which does not go unnoticed. It does not sit well with me. I've sinced asked Don to omit speaking on this subject, as the more we say, the more criticism we draw....seemingly from the same forumites.


"I'll put my work on those documents up against anybody's, anywhere, anytime."

I wasn't implying criticism for the translation. Rather, I remain curious to see what your interpretation was for some parts which may be subject to flexible interpretation.


Luger:
"But since the scientist is not willing to share those results, it means nothing."

Having information that you want to release but cannot, is like having an itch you cannot scratch. Not releasing it before it is soundly proven however would make me a bad scientist, which I am not. When it is released, you may very well be awestruck, and you will certainly understand why I released it when I did and the way I did. Until then, some may consider me an 'asshole', but as you have conversed with me privately and constructively, you know me to be rather amicable if not 'helpful'.


Anathema:
"How about making two products: one quality absinthe for the common market and one premium quality absinthe for the luxury market?"

If we had greater resources and wanted to get rich in a hurry off of the absinthe trend, this is exactly what I would suggest (from a businessman's perspective). Unfortunately, we need to focus our resources at the current void (historically authentic absinthes) in the market. If that changes at some point, I cannot determine at this point in time.

By Artemis on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 06:25 am: Edit

Luger, my very good friend, thanks for the backup.

I'm sorry you had to break your own vow to stay out of this forum on my account.

By Don_Walsh on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 06:23 am: Edit

Hey guys! Just put it to rest.

The operative word in Ted's statement was 'exact'

He is doing some fine tuning.

That is all.

Don't make a silk business out of a sow's molehill.

By Artemis on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 06:15 am: Edit

"Your statement was, "...that even he is in the dark as to the recipes, stretches credulity.". I took that as being rather 'thorny'."

If you mean you perceived some attempt at an insult, none was intended. You stated that you were the only person in the world who knows what goes into Jade Liqueur products (or at least that's how I understood you). Here is Don halfway across the earth from you, producing said products (or so we've been led to believe). These two facts, if facts they be, do not square with each other. That's all.

"Actually, I'd prefer to wait and see how your translations and interpretations compare to the
ones I made initially without any prior suggestions on my part."

I'll put my work on those documents up against anybody's, anywhere, anytime. I'm open to constructive criticism and man enough to admit I'm wrong if I am. I noticed some curious things in the documents myself. I would stop short of calling them "contradictions", at least internally, (of course they may contradict information found elsewhere), but then I didn't really analyze them for such.

By Anathema on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 05:18 am: Edit

"Did I ever say I only drink cheap absinthe?"

I never drink cheap absinthe. That is not to say I wouldn't. The trouble is, there is no cheap absinthe. Even the worst Czech swill is very expensive compared to other liquors. I can't afford a Premium XO or Single Malt 20 Years Old but once a decade, maximum. Other times I drink cheaper brands and there are many acceptable, even good whiskeys and brandies available that cost less than 35 euros (in Finland, tax included), which is my normal limit for any liquor.

There should be expensive absinthes and there should be inexpensive absinthes. But now there are just expensive abs and too expensive abs, and the quality is never on the same level with the price.

Someone should do something about this unbearable situation. Someone should bring a good quality absinthe to the market and sell it at a fair price. It would force other absinthe makers to lower their prices and it would hopefully wipe the swill makers out of the market altogether.

Ted and Don, I really appreciate your work and using of traditional methods and natural ingredients, but I hope you would not price yourselves out of the market... How about making two products: one quality absinthe for the common market and one premium quality absinthe for the luxury market?

"I know people who produce specialty items on a small scale, mostly things like musical instruments"

I know them too, but their musical instruments will last a life time, many life times that is. But absinthe is a disposable good and only usable once. In fact, I never buy any of those above mentioned XOs and 20 Years Olds - I just don't see any reason.

By Luger on Monday, January 29, 2001 - 01:54 am: Edit

>"I thought that was old news to everyone(?)"

>I doubt it. It will probably be new to everybody >who doesn't read French and quite a few who do.

Please elaborate why you thought most Forumites knew of that text? Artemis has done a great job with that translation which means he has done more to the Forum than you have ever done. The only thing you are able to do is criticize and telling everyone how wrong they are.


>"FWIW, I've translated and reproduced all those >protocols quite awhile back."

But since the scientist is not willing to share those results, it means nothing.

Luger

By Tabreaux on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 03:16 pm: Edit

"My issue with said statement had nothing to do with any aspect of the process other than ingredients."

Your statement was, "...that even he is in the dark as to the recipes, stretches credulity.". I took that as being rather 'thorny'. We don't work from cookbooks, and testing of certain process have to be closely scruntinized before making the actual products is even practical. Our standards are unparalleled. Since there is much more to what we do than anyone realizes (obviously), grant us the benefit of the doubt about what we do, how and why.


"Feel free to point them out for our edification."

Actually, I'd prefer to wait and see how your translations and interpretations compare to the ones I made initially without any prior suggestions on my part.

By Timk on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 01:48 pm: Edit

"Drinks Johnny Walker Blue, but only cheap absinthe? "It's only an aperitif." "

Did I ever say I only drink cheap Absinthe? No, I said that it would not be reasonable for me to drink expensive absinthe all the time, as, I presume - note presume - others woild also find. Just like I dont drink expensive whiskey every day, and drink a bottle a week, I doubt everyone will be able to use your absinthe exclusively at the price you are selling it, like the finer wines etc. it will be an occasional purchase.

Tim

By Bob_Chong on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Don:

RE: document analysis and other rot

First of all, it was PV who asked about star anise, not me. All I suggested was for him to use his noggin to make a guess ("what do you think...?").

This is an uncertainty, of course, but anyone could surmise a conclusion that would seem supported in posts made in this very forum: how has star anise been characterized? And I never meant recipes (which are bullshit, according to many, yourself included).

For such a "simple document analysis," one could do a keyword search for star anise. Then one could read everything that you or Ted have ever said about the stuff (and what anyone else has said, just for shits and giggles). Then they could place a hash mark under each column: positive or negative.

A brief review might show that either more postive things or more negative things have been said about star anise.

Then one could say, "I bet that there [is/isn't] star anise in the Thai stuff."

And when it comes out and has [some/none], he could say, "I guessed right." Or if the opposite were true, he could say, "Curious. I didn't see that coming. I suppose I guessed wrong."

Again, this proves nothing. I never said it would.

Does this mean I'm "speculating about which herbs may or may not be in a product"? No. There is nothing to support that accusation.

If I committed some kind of faux pas by urging PV to use his brain a little, I apologize. Teacherly habits die hard.

BC

By Artemis on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 01:26 pm: Edit

"I am afraid there is much more to what we do than a 'recipe', and that is the limit of understanding by both the public and modern producers alike."

The statement, by you, which I questioned, was (again):

"FWIW, at this time, there is only one person on planet Earth who knows the exact content of the JL products (me ... "

My issue with said statement had nothing to do with any aspect of the process other than ingredients.

"Regarding the 'new' booklet"

I never used those words. Those are your words. Other than you, who said it was "new"?

"I thought that was old news to everyone(?)"

I doubt it. It will probably be new to everybody who doesn't read French and quite a few who do.

"Most of it already appeared in the Delahaye book,"

Some of it. Not most of it.

"FWIW, I've translated and reproduced all those protocols quite awhile back."

Congratulations.

"(some things are an outright contradiction)"

Feel free to point them out for our edification.

"Delahaye could have very easily just lifted one of those 'recipes' for La Fee. She didn't (and I don't blame her), probably because they tend to be awful."

I know for a fact and beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's possible to make very good absinthe using those texts as a starting point. This is not speculation on my part. If Delahaye chose some other path, for whatever reason, good for her. If others tried and failed, too bad for them. But it HAS been done.

"As for Pernod Fils, they deserve ample credit simply because the quality and taste of their product *is* what made absinthe popular."

Says Pernod.

"I haven't tasted anything these days quite like it, and none of the 'recipes' in that booklet are either."

I never said those recipes would recreate Pernod. I said they contained valuable information which would help a person to realize what goes into the creation of good absinthe.

"Therefore, I feel they were justified in feeling themselves to uphold a higher standard than most would-be imitators."

They no doubt upheld a higher standard than the frauds, charlatans, and poisoners, and many of their legitimate competitors. Whether their standard was any higher than that of ALL other makers of quality absinthe (I'm utterly confident there *were* such makers, although I can't prove it) or higher than the standards of everybody trying to make absinthe in the world today, is more than dubious.

By Tabreaux on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 11:59 am: Edit

"But that the final products will differ so vastly from what Don has attempted already, that even he is in the dark as to the recipes, stretches credulity."

I am afraid there is much more to what we do than a 'recipe', and that is the limit of understanding by both the public and modern producers alike. JL has effectively replicated the difficult parts of the process exactly as I have demanded, and that is the major 'hoop of fire'. Being chemistry oriented, JL likewise has had no trouble processing the supplemental information I pass along, which is a cakewalk in comparison.


Regarding the 'new' booklet, I thought that was old news to everyone(?). Most of it already appeared in the Delahaye book, which was published 17 years ago, and the remainder has popped up elsewhere here and there. FWIW, I've translated and reproduced all those protocols quite awhile back. IMHO, the author was a bit, shall we say, 'ambitious', and I don't think he was as much an expert as he insinuates (some things are an outright contradiction). Delahaye could have very easily just lifted one of those 'recipes' for La Fee. She didn't (and I don't blame her), probably because they tend to be awful.

As for Pernod Fils, they deserve ample credit simply because the quality and taste of their product *is* what made absinthe popular. After all, they were the originators of absinthe and they set *the* standard of quality. I haven't tasted anything these days quite like it, and none of the 'recipes' in that booklet are either. Therefore, I feel they were justified in feeling themselves to uphold a higher standard than most would-be imitators.

By Artemis on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 10:09 am: Edit

"The trick is simple. JL has not yet made the final products."

Fair enough. But that the final products will differ so vastly from what Don has attempted already, that even he is in the dark as to the recipes, stretches credulity. I'm not trying to start an argument here - I don't even care, okay? It just seemed not quite logical to me and I would be remiss if I had not pointed it out.

"The Pernod Fils booklet is enjoyable reading, especially for historical reference."

It's enjoyable from every standpoint, IMO.

"The information it contains is fairly non-specific"

Agreed. I had mostly the other booklet in mind when I said there was "much of value".

"It's a nice booklet though. I especially took note of how much space was dedicated to debunking the myth that *all* absinthe was 'bad'."

Agreed. It's obviously a Pernod propaganda piece, but the debunking of "absinthe is poison" is good and the details about the factory are fascinating.
The other booklet is also good in pointing out, although not in so many words, that Pernod was full of shit when they claimed that they produced the world's one and only true absinthe. I found it an effective foil to the propaganda aspects of the Pernod pamphlet.

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 09:58 am: Edit

My reference to pub prices for absinthe by the glass/shot/shooter whatever, was just intended to illustrate the irrationale of TimK's argument.

I'm given to understand that much of the absinthe imported into UK goes or went into the trade, i.e., pubs and clubs. So lots of people were buying glasses for -- you tell me how much. 5 quid? Too low. 7.50? Maybe. 10? Not unheard of.

My point is that TimK want to generalize from his alleged spending patterns to those of Everyman.

Drinks Johnny Walker Blue, but only cheap absinthe? "It's only an aperitif."

Shame!

By Tabreaux on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:58 am: Edit

"It's difficult to believe Don doesn't know, and he's making the stuff. How do you manage that trick?"

The trick is simple. JL has not yet made the final products.


The Pernod Fils booklet is enjoyable reading, especially for historical reference. The information it contains is fairly non-specific....far less specific than the Arnold recipe (which is basically useless). It's a nice booklet though. I especially took note of how much space was dedicated to debunking the myth that *all* absinthe was 'bad'.


"My comparison, Ted was of Pub prices per glass, to retail prices per bottle...."

A pub will charge what is necessary to maintain the desired range of profit percentage, based upon the cost of the bottle.

By Martin on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:17 am: Edit

How did you know I used to play hockey? It was the only sport I ever truely enjoyed.

-Martin

By Martin on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:15 am: Edit

Good thing you stayed away from that Eucalyptus. Just because they put it in cough drops doesn't mean it's very tasty. yuck!

Admit it, seaweed is your secret coloring agent! It's perfect because it doesn't skew the flavor and it's full of green stuff. I figured it out!

Oh shit, now Ted's going to come to my house and break my legs.

-Martin

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:14 am: Edit

I don't play hockey either, eh?

By Martin on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:09 am: Edit

You don't drink blends? C'mon Don, Seagram's 7 is the best blend ever. 100 million homeless drunks can't be wrong! Why, it's even better than SoCo!

-Martin

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:06 am: Edit

HUMOR MODE ON

Sorry, I can neither confirm nor deny that we have any of the following in our products:

Eucalyptus
Croton oil
Depleted Uranium (why else was I just on Uranus?)
Sarin
Tricothecene mycotoxins
Bee feces

HUMOR MODE OFF

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 08:01 am: Edit

Jeez, the English. No wonder you drink Johhny Walker Blue. There's only one t in Scot. Plural is Scots. OK, two t's in Scottish. But 'Scotts'? Isn't that a brand of paper towels? Surely not a nationality.

And Blue is only about $100 in Thailand, not $150 (100 quid) not that I give a damn, I don't buy it. I don't drink blends, I drink a malt when I want a whiskey. And the consistent winner of blind tastings of Scotch malts -- is Bushmills, which is of course, an Irish malt. How many t's in Antrim?

PS: it costs a lot less than Blue.

From: TimK
To: United Distillers & Vintners
Sirs: Why is your Blue so overpriced?
Signed
Arrogant Sod

By Martin on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 07:10 am: Edit

My bottles will have glow-in-the-dark labels with holographic images of Lord Cthulhu. Around him, 100 absintheurs will be dancing in chaotic mayhem.

The motto will read: "For 10 Million Years, Pure Bottled Madness".

And of course the back will say: "Spriteaux avec les Extraits d'Absinthe. Pour Les Desolees. C'est La... tres bonne!"

Here's my secret for the natural green color: seaweed. Good ol' kelp works every time, but sometimes I prefer sushi-nori.

-Martin

By Timk on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 06:25 am: Edit

My comparison, Ted was of Pub prices per g;ass, to retail priceds per bottle, Don attempted to, argue that what you would pay nin a pub was more expensive than your potential per bottle retail price.

By the way, I couldnt give a shit what the Scotts drink, I drink what I like, and dont think I pay the £100 per bottle bullshit prices you Americans pay.

Tim

By Artemis on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 06:08 am: Edit

I'm not even sure I understand Bob's question which set Ted and Don off, but for what it's worth:

Ted said:

"FWIW, at this time, there is only one person on planet Earth who knows the exact content of the JL products (me ... "

It's difficult to believe Don doesn't know, and he's making the stuff. How do you manage that trick?

For what it's worth, a prior remark I made about knowing "how Don makes it" referred to the "authenticity" of his process vs. Pernod's (as opposed to the process apparently used by the Spanish distillers), not to Don's recipes, of which I have no knowledge whatsoever.

As to the documents I translated for Phil, or any other old documents, people can find in them what they will. Determined seekers will find MUCH of value. What that has to do with Jade Liqueurs I don't know and couldn't care less. And neither should anybody else.

By Martin on Sunday, January 28, 2001 - 04:47 am: Edit

MY recipe uses only Aniseed, NO Star Anise. And alot of Coriander. A fair amount of Fennel too. I'll post the full ingredients when it's finished. So far it's coming along pretty good.
mmmmmmmm.... coriander.

FWIW, Don and Ted, I hope you don't have Eucalyptus in your recipe. I tried that in my first batch and it wasn't a good idea. Those damn Koalas, they tricked me! Some day I'll get them!

Some day....

-Martin

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 10:53 pm: Edit

And beyond that you are on terra infirma, with a long way to go to solid ground.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 10:51 pm: Edit

Bob, why is this even worth talking about? You want to speculate about which herbs may or may not be in a product that isn't on the street yet?
Why?

"Document analysis"? That's a process of going out on one half-broken limb after another. Unless you have collateral information -- which you can't.

Ted hasn't and won't say what herbs are/aren't in the final versions. Neither have I. Neither of us has so much as hinted at the compositions. And they are complex. If you think you can approximate them from old recipes you are simply down a blind alley. And by the way, Phil's manuscript is not of much help in this regard.

Given the inherent futility I'm at a loss to why you would bother to try. Idle curiority? Destined to be frustrated, I can assure you.

I can think of a single herb that you can reasonably assume is employed, by definition, and a further group of herbs, the ones you are speculating about -- but you have no basis on which to include or exclude any of these.

Ted's not going to let anythign slip and neither am I.

By Bob_Chong on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 09:44 pm: Edit

True enough. But based on simple document analysis, one conclusion would seem more reasonable than the other.

BC

By Tabreaux on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 09:13 pm: Edit

FWIW, at this time, there is only one person on planet Earth who knows the exact content of the JL products (me), and I have not given any indication of the content thereof here or anywhere else.

By Bob_Chong on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 07:50 pm: Edit

PV:

Based on simple document analysis, what do you think: star anise or not in JL?

Also, I believe Segarra has no star anise.

BC

By Thegreenimp on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 04:12 pm: Edit

"Cone of Silence",.....Damn, I thought you two used the Shoe Telephone that Max used.......

By Tabreaux on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 04:01 pm: Edit

"You always seem to be going on anbout no one realises how expensive, hw much effort, bla bla, have you ever considered that this is for the simple reason that you do not tell us."


Tim, realize that we have a great deal invested in something that involves proprietary art. All non-public aspects of our business are to remain absolutely confidential, and this is simply good business practice. Until the products are released, much PR information will remain confidential as well.

Regarding your comparison of 100 year-old prices with those of today, if I were to describe in detail everything that has changed significantly in the past 100 years that influences the manufacturing costs, it would consist of nothing short of a book. There is not much more I can say on the subject.

These products we are discussing are not yet available. Until then and after then, if there are questions, they should be directed solely at me and no one else. Some things I can answer, some things I cannot.

By Petermarc on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 03:14 pm: Edit

'pontarlier anis' by distillerie armand guy
in pontarlier is made with 'anis vert'...it is naturally green and made in old absinthe stills...sweetened (pontsec) or 'a la ancienne'...

By Perruche_Verte on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 02:45 pm: Edit

OK, Don, that's cool. Maybe by the time you're exporting to the US I'll have educated my palate to the point that I can accurately determine that for myself.

Speaking of which, can you or anyone recommend a distilled anise liqueur which absolutely, certainly contains no star anise? I know what extract of aniseed tastes like, but I don't think that's the same thing.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 02:44 pm: Edit

Two bottles of $30 La Bleue per month works out to $720 per year if I were inclined to get sloshed on LB every night.

That's what I pay for LB.

Maybe you find $2000 a year for two bottles a month absinthe of unequaled quality 'excessive', but not everyone would agree with you. That's about what I spend a year on beer. Give or take. Lots of people spend that much a year on cigarettes. $6 a day. Is $6 a day too much for a premium absinthe constant supply? I doubt it.

Sorry you live in an underpaid overtaxed society, boyo. Not everyone labors under such a handicap.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 02:35 pm: Edit

PV, Ted would garotte me if I even started to answer that question, and I like my neck unlacerated, so I won't. I can't. I am sworn to secrecy that would make a mafioso blanch, Ted and I only discuss this in the Cone of Silence at Control HQ when Max and the Chief aren't using it.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 02:30 pm: Edit

By the way Tim, if you think ANY Johnny Walker is other than horsepiss, then you know less about Scotch than you do about absinthe.

No one in Scotland would be caught dead drinking JW, probably not even at the pubs next to the UDV distilleries. That is export garbage and Blue Label is for new money Asians who think a high price equals high class.

So Keep On Walkin'...away.

By Perruche_Verte on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 02:29 pm: Edit

But did not Ted say that they simply couldn't handle a flood of orders such as you suggest, Tim? I should think they wouldn't want a big pile of $50 orders waiting to be filled because they couldn't produce to meet the demand. When you talk about them taking Spirits Corner's business, you are assuming that they really want to do this.

Back to star anise/badaine:

I will understand if I get the stock response of "proprietary information, wait until it's released, etc.", but...

Given that Pontarlier absinthes were said not to contain any star anise, I take it at least one of the Jade Liqueurs products will not be using any. Is this correct?

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Tim, you don't have our best interests at heart, and everyone knows it. You are just obfuscating as usual, so why not just shut your trap?

If our price was $50 you'd argue that it ought to be $30.

The fact is: you want people to think we are 'overpriced' when we are not. However, no one on this forum is stupid enough to fall for Big Lie tactics that went stale 55 years ago.

So thanks for your concern about our profitibility. Now sod off.

By Timk on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 01:52 pm: Edit

"If Tim thinks $30 (delivered) Deva is a better deal than our absinthes, well, good for Deva."

I never stated that, what I said, Don, if your intention was other than to Muddy waters, poison wells, and mislead the consumers, was that Absinthe at a lower price will establish a larger, returning customer base. Even at 1.75 times the cost of segarra, you would have nearly all the spiritscorner orders for absinthe from the entire forum, whereas at some rediculous price, you will have mainly one off orders infilled with the usual spiritscorner orders.

"I can hear Tim already: "I wouldn't pay $75 for a bottle of Margeaux, it's little more authentic than the Boone's Farm I can buy for $5 a jug."

I like the finest drink avaliable, but i wont sit down and demolish my johnnie walker blue label in two days. Absinthe was, and is designed as a regular drink, and even if it took you two weeks to drink a bottle of absinthe - and, Don, those which you drank were probably 1L bottles, then thats still $1912.50 a year, a little excessive dont you think.

"How much is a not so distinguished absinthe by the glass in a UK pub? $15-$20 US?"

I dissagree, pub prices and retail prices are totally incomparable, look at the absinthe saucers, prices of 3FF were nearly as high as the retail price of a bottle, so what is your point?

"However that doesn't make him right."

I could not agree more, only time will tell, but this will NEVER stop me questioning. You always seem to be going on anbout no one realises how expensive, hw much effort, bla bla, have you ever considered that this is for the simple reason that you do not tell us.

Can you all see what Don attempts to do to anyone of us plebians who dares speak against the 'gentleman' distiller, he tries to discredit us, look what he did to absintheur, look at his comments about me,
"I can hear Tim already: "I wouldn't pay $75 for a bottle of Margeaux, it's little more authentic than the Boone's Farm I can buy for $5 a jug.""

Please consider carefully, and discuss appropriately, there is no need for this childish piss taking, are we not all capable of holding a discussion, and having an argument without resorting to such methods, which I am ashamed to say i stooped to after Dons first unsolicited attack, a quote from you may notice.

YOU ALL SEEM TO MISS THE ESSENTIAL POINT, I AM NOT DISSAGREEING WITH THE FACT THAT THEY MAKE A PROFIT, ALL I SUGGEST IS THAT THEY WOULD BOTH MAKE GREATER PROFIT IN THE LONG TERM, AND BENIFIT THE CONSUMER BY LOWERING THEIR PRICE.

Tim

By Tabreaux on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 01:43 pm: Edit

We live in a world where everything sells if it's quick, easy, and cheap. What we've put together is something that goes squarely against the grain of this trend. Some persons will appreciate this, but not all. You'd think it would be easy and fairly cheap to replicate an old art. Not in today's world. On the contrary, it is like swimming uphill.

The real 'pot of gold' lies in garbage like Hill's. We'd pursue that market if we were aspiring to get rich on matters absinthe. As for us, we are not quitting our day jobs.

By Perruche_Verte on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 12:43 pm: Edit

"[capitalism] does work, which is more than can be said for most other systems..."

Ha ha ha!

Jesus. Blackjack, you're entitled to your own political and economic beliefs, but it's pure flamebait to make an assertion like that when you know that at least a few rather verbose anti-capitalists are present...

See the new thread on this topic. I want to leave this one in peace.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 11:40 am: Edit

Well said, Dill.

About the spoons etc. yes, we are well aware of this potential ancillary product line, little has been done beyond musing about it so far, all effort and time and esp $$$ is going into the absinthe not the accoutrements.

That will change.

One thing about a bottle of absinthe versus a bottle of Scotch or Cognac: the absinthe goes a lot farther. Even when I was deliberately setting out to get deep into the mysteries of the Green Fairy with four 1-liter bottles of La Bleue -- it took a week to kill a bottle. A bottle of Scotch or cognac would have gone in a day or two. The pattern of consumption is as different as the subjective experience. And it is almost twice the proof. (ours is, not necessarily La Bleue's case.)

If I am drinking beer routinely I put away about $55 worth a week. So why is that so different that a bottle of absinthe that might last 1-2 weeks depending on one's routine? (I had to work hard to kill a bottle of LB in a week -- I was TRYING to go for secondary effects, never got any. That would not have been my normal consumption pattern for absinthe. 10 days-2 weeks maybe.

I don't need to point out, do I? that there are many many many wine lovers out there who think nothing of spending a lot more than $200 a month on wine -- just what they drink not even including what they lay down for the future.

(I can hear Tim already: "I wouldn't pay $75 for a bottle of Margeaux, it's little more authentic than the Boone's Farm I can buy for $5 a jug.")

How much is a not so distinguished absinthe by the glass in a UK pub? $15-$20 US?

Or those 138 ml bootleg bottles in NY for $80? Equates to $320 for a 750 ml. Makes the $200 LB sound like a 'deal'...and makes ours sound like a giveaway.

Lots of places in the US charge $25 a drink (and not absinthe.) Guys go there to watch titties bounce. Three drinks and we are back to our magic number.

Come on guys, let's face it. $70-$80 just ain't what it used to be. Surely not too much to pay for something no one has tasted in 85 tears.

And I ain't talking Deva.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 10:25 am: Edit


Quote:

Tim, I think you need to learn a bit more about how capitalism works. And if you don't like it, then join the club.



Heh. I don't particularly like the way capitalism works, but it does work, which is more than can be said for most other systems. It'll have to do until something better comes along. Maybe once we have Star Trek replicators...

By Dilettante on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 09:56 am: Edit

The discussion of pricing is based upon a misunderstanding of capitalism. Pricing needs no defense. The value of an item is the price that the purchaser is willing to pay. When launching a business, pricing decisions consider cost of production last--if cost of production is an issue at the start, then it is not business, it is gambling. (If the cost of production is more than the value, then you're probably a farmer-a successful farmer is one who takes his whole life to go broke.) In a case where the cost of production is so close to the value of an item that it must be of ongoing concern, then the markets are saturated and the profit is too low for anyone with any sense to get into the business.

If Don & Ted have decided to produce Absinthe in the face of this sort of pricing situation, then they have done so out of love for the art--as has been noted, many artists and artisans must support their passion with outside income; it is my hope that neither Don nor Ted are left in this position.

If Don & Ted have gone into the business because they can make huge piles of cash, then OK, this needs no defense either.

In either event, I (the consumer) will decide how much I will spend for what quality of drink, and that is the end of the pricing matter. If enough people pay the freight, then the price is fair, if not, then it is too high. (Since I always budget luxuries first, there MAY be a bottle in my future, even at the $75.00US rumored price.)

BTW, Don, when I was last in Thailand, (some time ago) one of the small industries that had good repute was the manufacture of tableware (many of my mates bought sets for their wives or parents), might there be time in your day to ask one of the local jewelers about producing quality spoons?
Don't take time out of distilling, but my guess is that the Thais can make a product that is better and cheaper than what is out there now, and this could be a small profit center.

Also, if the whining about price IS affecting your decision and causing you to rethink downward, then consider my whine logged.

By Artemis on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 08:25 am: Edit

"And yes, i do accuse the makers of La fee of being greedy, i would not pay £50.00 a bottle for an absinthe that little more authentic than deva,"

"Authentic" depends entirely upon what you're trying to duplicate. But with that said, La Fee is a LOT more like a quality 1895 French absinthe than is Deva. Not a little more, but a LOT more. I know how Don makes his absinthe. It will be more still like a quality 1895 French absinthe. Is either Don's or La Fee worth what they're asking for it? That's entirely your decision. You can always vote with your feet. If enough people follow you, the price will come down. Will the quality stay the same in that case?

By Martin on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 01:49 am: Edit

The pricing makes perfect sense to me. As Ted mentioned in his post (and alot of people seem to have ignored), they need to make back the money they spent in their initial investment. Setting up any kind of business is expensive, and I'm sure they're not about to eat the cost of that. Instead, the cost of the initial investment is reflected in the price of the product. It's like that with EVERYTHING, not just alcohol.

Maybe I'm not phased by high-priced alcohol because I used to work in a hi-fi shop that sold $30,000 home stereo speakers, but I think their pricing is reasonable and on par with what would be expected considering the quality and work involved. Yes, I have a deep understanding of why expensive things are so expensive. And it's almost always worth it.

I don't think they are in any danger of pricing themselves out of the market. They're obviously not looking to become the Budweiser of absinthes (thank God!).

-Martin

P.S.
Tim, I think you need to learn a bit more about how capitalism works. And if you don't like it, then join the club.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 01:30 am: Edit

Grim, you cogstocker, if Macarthur had defended the US the way you 'defended' our pricing, we'd all be speaking Japanese.

By Perruche_Verte on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 01:06 am: Edit

Actually the quality control part sounds like a lot of fun. You could probably get volunteers. ;-)

But seriously -- I know people who produce specialty items on a small scale, mostly things like musical instruments, which require costly imported woods. They know that if they do it right and don't employ anyone else, they are only going to be able to make so many of these items in a year. The price will reflect that. They are not making a large profit, but doing what they love, and are grateful to be able to make a living at it, if in fact it's their full-time job. Quite often it is not.

If producing handmade absinthe is at all similar, and it sounds like there are parallels, then it's naturally going to be more expensive than a mass-produced product, but worth it. I probably won't buy a bottle every month either, but will I try it at least once? I'd feel silly if I didn't.

By Grimbergen on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 12:49 am: Edit

Don, go fuck yourself. I was defending your lousy ass earlier.

"Whether or not the high price they are setting is a profit maximizing point is an empirical question. If it turns out they can make a higher profit by going for lower price/higher volume so be it; it will certainly make me happier. It is only safe to assume that they are the best people to judge where their optimal price is. "

Read, and try to pay attention. As I said, you are the best judge of your optimal price. That is to say you are the best judge of whether to pursue a high volume/low price strategy or vice versa. You are the best judge of the all the relevant costs. I am sorry you feel the need to attack someone who is defending the decisions that you make

Grim

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 12:37 am: Edit

You know, I have been around the block more than enough times to be aware that no matter WHAT the price of a given product or service is, SOMEONE is going to say it's overpriced, and that's just the way the world goes round. If Tim thinks $30 (delivered) Deva is a better deal than our absinthes, well, good for Deva.

However that doesn't make him right.

I run a business where we charge $12.50 per man/hour (I use the term loosely) for a service when the world market price for same service is $125 to $250. And you know what? There are still people who want to haggle, or say they can't afford it, or try to negotiate for a discount.

Go figure.

I can tell you this: if it was up to me our absinthe products would be higher -- not lower.

Grim, it's easy for you to talk about increasing profits by lowering prices and (supposedly) upping sales. That's because YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THE WORK INVOLVED. That's my job, and I am not going to do 2X the labor for 1/2X the money, and I don't believe you would, either. And anyone who thinks I am sitting at a desk with my feet propped up while underpaid Thais make the absinthe, WRONG! No one makes this stuff but me, myself, and I. I have to QA/QC, order, inventory, produce, bottle, label etc. Plus the final packaging and shipping. You have NO IDEA what sort of administrative costs we have, NO IDEA what our corporate taxation environment is like, NO IDEA what is costs to run a Customs Bonded Warehouse which is a major paper chase all its own.

You are making assumptions about economy of scale when you have zero information about the realities of the situation. That's lame.

By Timk on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 12:14 am: Edit

My post was prior to the other threads replies, the main reason that fine cognac or champagne is so expensive, would be partly down tho the quality of the input products, but mainly, in my opinion due to the aging process.

If no one ever questioned anything, we would have a very empty forum, and lead incredibly boring lives.
Without people questioning things, we would have had none of the great scientific advances of the past millenia, if people just blindly follow, or accept what is put before them without question, what sort of society do you think we would be living in. Infacyy your entrepreneurial enterprise relies on people questioning the Governments reaoning behind the absinthe ban, and questioning whether a government has a right to restrict freedom of choice in that regard.

"That is all that we can and need to say."

That still leaves questions, dont go under just because you cant see past initial big profits.

And yes, i do accuse the makers of La fee of being greedy, i would not pay £50.00 a bottle for an absinthe that little more authentic than deva, and even with a perfect replica of Edouard Pernod, i would probably buy only a bottle or two in a year, i cant speak for the rst of the forum and the world, but i think that you are in serious danger of pricing yourself out of the market. However it remains to be seen if I am proved wrong, which would make me happy indeed.

Come on guys, own up - how often would you spend $75 a bottle on absinthe, honestly, I bet that spiritscorner absinthe orders from the forum wont drop a bit after the release of the product purely because of the price point.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 27, 2001 - 12:12 am: Edit

Hi, Tim. Ted is right, and you are clueless.

First of all we are not 'expensive' nor are we 'overpriced'. If you wish to see products in that category, discuss it with the people selling $30 La Bleue for $200.

Secondly there is no basis for comparison between ANY absinthe on the market today and ours.

Why not ask Courvoisier why a bottle of their top shelf grand fine champagne Cognac costs more than E&J Brandy, or one of the (ugh) Spanish brandies?

We make our products traditionally which make them BETTER than any other absinthe being made today. We color them traditionally. We follow certain other traditional methods that are none of your business and all that costs a lot more money than slapping some essential oils into a mix of water, neutral spirits, caramel and dye like 98% of the absinthes out there today are doing. We are not pastis makers. We are absinthe makers and we don't use cheap pastis techniques. We make no compromises, we cut no corners, and the results are well worth it.

Without a doubt - our products will set a new benchmark (really an old one that has been lost) for premium absinthe, and the price which is entirely reasonable will be seen as the best absinthe value for the money in the world. You can pay less, and get less. You can pay a lot more and still get less.

By Tabreaux on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 04:55 pm: Edit

"In that case Don, how come your absinthe is so expensive...."

Tim, I thought we resolved this in a past thread. First of all, like I said before, you are not our comptroller, and by no fault of your own, you are clueless as to what is really involved in doing what we are doing. It can only be done from the ground up.


Do you have access to any information regarding what this little venture has cost us to mobilize it, fund it, or run it?

No.


Do you have any idea of what it takes in direct and peripheral expenses to do what we are doing?

No.


Why not ask the makers of fine cognac, wine, or champagne why the prices are so high? They are specialty low-volume products, and they cost more to make. You keep pointing the finger at us, and I cannot understand why. This is not a Mickey Mouse venture, and we are not a sidestream of a pastis maker. Doing this isn't easy, and it isn't cheap. FWIW, the makers of La Fee are making more of a profit than us. I don't see anyone accusing them of being greedy.

Like we set out to do initially and always, we will provide the highest quality, most authentic products available anywhere. That will never be compromised. Secondly, we will always offer them at the most reasonable price we can and remain afloat at the same time. That is all that we can and need to say.

By Admin on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 04:46 pm: Edit


Quote:

unless you are taking the profits of a retailer as well as the distiller



Naw, I'm not missing his point. But it's the only part I'm qualified to comment on. Heh. I just think sometimes people misunderstand how these things can work.

If they're selling direct, its very relevent, because why bring up the retailer vs distiller (manufacturer) argument at all? It makes no difference then. That was *my* point, in a round about way.

By Grimbergen on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Kallisti,
I think you are missing Tim's point.

"When manufacturers retail their own products, they generally charge the same as their retailers."
The impression I've gotten from what Don and Ted have said is that they will be selling direct. If so this wouldn't be a relevant point. If they only sell direct, then they will capture the distributor's profits as well.

Furthermore, even if it is the case that they don't want to compete with their customers, there is still the question of why they are (allegedly) pricing their product so high.

Tim,
Whether or not the high price they are setting is a profit maximizing point is an empirical question. If it turns out they can make a higher profit by going for lower price/higher volume so be it; it will certainly make me happier. It is only safe to assume that they are the best people to judge where their optimal price is.


Grim

By Admin on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 03:34 pm: Edit

When manufacturers retail their own products, they generally charge the same as their retailers. This is common across most retailing markets. Otherwise, it undermines their relationship with retailers. As far as the manufacturer is concerned that's where most his cash comes from.

Frequently, manufacturers sell to retailers at full price and offer quantity discounts. This basically works the same way.

By Timk on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 03:12 pm: Edit

In that case Don, how come your absinthe is so expensiive, if the price of the herbs makes such little difference, why was the suggested retail price, by you about 2.9 times as expensive as segarra, and that is retail price.
Operating streight from the distillery, and selling to your other company, and presumably at cost, unless you are making profit on selling to your shareholders company, surely this would about halve the cost to the consumer normally, unless you are taking the profits of a retailer as well as the distiller, at 2.9 times the retail price of a reasonably comparable product. The distilling procedures cannot make up for the price difference either, even considering the fact that you are probably distilling under reduced pressure.

Please comment

Tim

By Tavis on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 05:40 am: Edit

Yeah, the high price of the Segarra absinthe probably just reflects the time and effort involved, and probably the low volumes produced by Sr Segarra.

If aniseed is less harsh than star anise, then Segarra's use of aniseed is probably borne out by the fact that the flavour is quite mild, even though it louches almost immediately due to the high levels of that thar anethole.

By Don_Walsh on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 04:30 am: Edit

Bob, he'd have to fertilize his field with gold for the cost of the anise to have any tangible impact on his cost per bottle. There is no Spanish absinthe where the cost of the bottle, label and cap does not far exceed the cost of the contents, and of the cost of the contents, the herbs as a whole constitute a small portion.

Forget US herb prices. Globally, anise seed is about $3 a kilogram and depending on the protocol, that might be enough to make anywhere from 10 to 25 liters of absinthe. So in a 1 L bottle, there won't be more than 10-25 cents worth of anise seed at the very most. Granted that Segarra is apparently made legitimately by maceration followed by distillation, as far as I know, do you really think that a US quarter's worth of anise seed matters a fiddler's fart to the price? How much would Segarra's anise have to cost him before it would make a $5 difference in a bottle? Answer: $47-$50 a Kg at least. Not realistic, sorry. >16-17 times the market price. Even allowing for markups this is absurd. I am not denigrating Senor Segarra's absinthe, but, just your graps of the economics involved seems a little thin. And I don't mean it personally...

By Bob_Chong on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 03:57 am: Edit

FWIW, Julian Segarra named Pimpinella anisum specifically in reference to what goes in his product (and he think he wrote that it was grown locally or by himself personally). The relative cost of his absinthe may bear this out.

BC

By Don_Walsh on Friday, January 26, 2001 - 02:08 am: Edit

Petermarc, the difference in taste out to give this away (as it does with pastis and some absinthes.)

Star anise (Illicum verum) is much harsher tasting than anise seed (anise, aniseeed -- Pimpinella anisum). While the main component in the essential oils of these (and fennel, foeniculum vulgare) is anethole, it is the minor constituents which are different and which give the three herbs their different characters.

I don't know how much anise seed is cultivated in Spain today; what I use comes not from Spain but from Turkey, although I buy it from a famous-name herb & spice vendor in Europe. I have not been able to find a supplier of Spanish-grown anise seed, and we know that the Spanish absinthes are all mostly or exclusively star anise based. The references that talk about Spanish anise seed being the best are old. I suppose the Spanish Ministry of Agriculture knows whether anis seed is still cultivated there commercially; it might be worth a look on the Net or a chat with the Spanish Embassy's commercial counsellor to find out.

By Petermarc on Thursday, January 25, 2001 - 05:52 am: Edit

they use 'anis vert' in pontarlier for the anissette that is distilled and naturally green colored...i think that is the anis from spain...

By Don_walsh on Sunday, January 21, 2001 - 02:00 am: Edit

Star anise is a very common culinary herb/spice in Thailand, as I have often pointed out. NO ONE uses the seeds. Only the woody star shaped pods. Pls, don't try to second guess the Asians about herbs. They were using herbs when our ancestors were just getting around to cave paintings.

Another repetiion of past posts: star anise is the Spanish anethole source of choice because it is a richer more productive source (i.e., cheaper) than anise seed. However the BEST anise seed comes from Spain, while star anise comes from China (maybe some grown in Thailand too).

Go figure.

For absinthe making star anise is the least desirable source of anethole, with the harshest taste, of all three anethole producing herbs. That statement is true from a quality point of view. The Spanish are apparently motivated by economics. Not quality...

Footnote: Pontarlier producers apparently regarded star anise as anathema and unhealthy. Swiss producers used some star anise but not too much.

By Grimbergen on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 09:17 pm: Edit

Actually...I just got my hands on some star anis and a quick empirical test revealed that it is in the star-shaped pod, not nearly as much in the seed. The seeds taste more like cinnamon.

Grim

By Grimbergen on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Thanks Bob.

By Bob_chong on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Grim:

The seeds. At least botannical.com says so.

Also, from a common sense standpoint: where would the good stuff reside? In the fruit (i.e., seeds), right? I'm no biologist, but oils tend to be in nuts and seeds rather than the other parts of the plant.

BC

By Brspiritus on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Pardon me but do you have any Grey Poupon? It's the only thihg that goes well with my barbequed Grey Alien...

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Head... that's not a bowel movement, it's an
alien!!!

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:55 pm: Edit

YOu keep it. I'm a charter member.

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Head... I've sent you a gift subsciption to "End
of the World Monthly." I'm sure you'll enjoy.

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:52 pm: Edit

BEWARE THE GREYS - THE ILLUMINATI - THE ROCKEFELLERS

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:52 pm: Edit

I've sent the short bus around Head, please
be careful when seating...

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:50 pm: Edit

You all think I'm some funny guy huh?
You won't be laughing when the ATF(Absinthe, Thujone and Forum) boys come banging on your doors and ripping your prescious wormwood hydroponic farms out by their roots....

They know what your thinking

That's why ABSENTE is the only true Absinthe recognized and approved by the FDA

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:47 pm: Edit

Head, that bump on your head at the back
of your ear... it's not really a mole. Ever
wonder why you always activate the alarms at
store entrances?

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:46 pm: Edit

I'm donning it right now. You think it's funny?

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Head, if you line the inside of your hockey
helmet with tin foil, they can't read your
thoughts... it's true!

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:43 pm: Edit

FORTEAN TIMES Mid Aug 93

entitled STAR ANuS (from URANUS)

"while it is commonly believed that anushol resides in the membrane of the star pod. It is actually transmitted via sub-space transmissions from Uranus"

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Head, go back to Rhodesia, liberate man,
liberate!

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:38 pm: Edit

No seriously, I read it in the Fortean Times. We have a whole pile of 'em at the station. It's also mentioned in an old Soldier of Fortune fom the 80's.

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Oh god, it's postal boy... run!

By Head_prosthesis on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 06:27 pm: Edit

I believe it comes from Uranus.

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Grim... I think that question would be better
suited to the "Star Trek" forum. Just want to
help.

By Grimbergen on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 04:54 pm: Edit

thanks Pikkle.

By Tabreaux on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 04:08 pm: Edit

What difference would it make?

By Pikkle on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 04:03 pm: Edit

I don't know.

By Grimbergen on Saturday, January 20, 2001 - 03:25 pm: Edit

does anyone know if the anethol is primarily in the star pod or the seeds?

Grim

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