Archive through January 13, 2001

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By Chrysippvs on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 07:42 am: Edit

2nd temple period as in the Prushim, tzadikim, Iscaiots (no it wasn't his name, it was his group...why do you think he sold JC out..."love thy enemy" got old), essenes, and the Kohenim. That was a great period. Romans sure put an end to that (But not without a fight, Go Simon bar-Kokhbah!)

I always get a kick out of the "The dead sea scrolls are going to reveal lost teachings, new scriptures, ideas, etc.." People forget that those guys were 1st century Branch Davidians/Millitia cult..Ever read the their war scroll...they also never talk about the massive weapon supply they found up there in those caves..

What is cool is that the only red cows for use in the temple are being born and bred here...if the ultra-Hadid's ever get control Miss may have another export!

By Chrysippvs on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 07:31 am: Edit

it is a good hobby to fill time, and it is the one quest that will always go on...unlike stamp collecting etc..we only know of like 40% of texts on the subject.

Practically, 80% of the stuff I deal with is well-dressed superstition (although many say the same for what I believe). The other 20% is, well, uncanny. The John Dee case moreso than any other. If you are a student of the everything you can about the early enochian system and the John Dee/Edward talbot(Kelly) sessions. Do not, on the other hand, read the golden Dawn, OTO, or Crowleys personal is horrid. I almost wept when I read some of the GD's stuff.

I am working on learn coptic to do some reading of the Nag Hammandi Library and of course the old Editions of the Corpus Hermetica.

Trivial fact to upset your local priest: Before 330's almost every church father used "The Sheperd of Hermes" in their cannon. SoH was of course a small tome on the amalgamation between Hermetic science of Trismegistus and the Judaism of Yeshua ben(bar) Yosef. Cool book..nice and short.

As for the Al Azif, it is a fraud, but Lovecraft modeled the idea of a hidden tome after Dee's LL. What is more interesting that is whether or not Dee had an Ethiopic (Ahmaric Ge'ex) copy of the Book of Enoch, from which the enochian script could have been based on...there is no proof of this but it is a nice thought...Hey Even Jude quoted from the Coptic Gnostic book...

By Fluid on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 07:20 am: Edit

The Enoch material, at best, is uneventful re: merkava (perhaps why I set it down a while back.... not even sure where it is). The Hermes text is however, obviously pertinent... to read it as many times as "required" is still far off for me, but I keep movin' through it.

Justin, if you don't use it, why all the struggle?


By _blackjack_ on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 07:14 am: Edit

I was going to mention the same peeve about church Latin...

I used to be into Western mysticism and such, but got side-tracked in college and ended up focussing on Second- Temple period sectarian Judaism...

Liber Logaeth? I was under the impression that the Wilson/Hey Al Azif was an admitted fraud and that the Dee MS. they cited as its source bore no resemblance to their book.

By Chrysippvs on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 06:13 am: Edit

I have stuided alchemy when I was younger, but at a certain point the texts are too befuddled with lions swallowing suns inside the silver vessel held by the hermaphrodite inside the bath of Moses and on and on and on. I still work with it form time to time, when I encounter a nice text. A year or so ago I got to look over some alchemical notes of Newton (anyone know that his alchemical notes outnumber his mathematics and physics notes by almost 5 time!?).

Right now I am moving into actual Necromantic texts of Western Europe (Rawlison MS and the CLM MS in the bavarian Library). Much less cryptic than alchemical texts, although the orthography makes reading time doubled...really bad handwriting.. so much so that many scholars think that illiterate persons copied them symbol for symbol (like most mayans texts we have today).

Keys of that the (chuckling) Golden dawn (perverse) system of Dee's (never personally attempted) system?

I am not a fan of bores me from what I have read. I like the west, this new "Eastern thought is trendy" is a real shame, considering how watered down it is by the time it gets to Johnny Accountant and his yoga class. I am very Western in thought..favorite painting was "The school at Athens."

I am not by far a mystic, rather I am rather conservative religiously..isn't it sad that this is my idea of a pleasure hobby...

By Fluid on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit

I've been absorbing, best I can, The Emerald Tablets of Hermes (Thoth), and I've spent a little time of the Keys of Enoch... perhaps nothing so obscure as those texts of which you speak, Justin. I used to be much more into these topics... now I spend my time applying what I've already learned (shows me how far I have yet to go!).

My first "website" is a portal to esoteric topics... it requires updating but I still get email kudos frequently: Mystery School Links.

Are you into alchemy, ascension, siddhis, or ???


By Artemis on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 05:05 am: Edit

"Any other similarly interested people out there???"

If it's not French or Chinese, it's beyond my ability, but I do admire your gumption.

By Chrysippvs on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 04:25 am: Edit

it is funny to me, that all ecc. Latin is pronounced with a Italian accent...instead of the classic method (which we do have really old grammars that tell how latin was spoken in the 2nd century). It still erks me to see J's in the Rituale Romanorm, and here them say "Veritas" in the stead of "Weritas" or Eccelsis as "egselsis" rather than the "Ek-Kelsis".

As far as latin/encoded occult texts...right now working though three...the Hetparchia Mystica of John Dee (as transcribed by Meric Causabon c. 1540's), the Stenographia (book three, the one with the nice code in it) of the hip-cat Johannes Trithemius, and my enduring work with the Voynich MS, which I have been obsessed with for 4 years...

As for Grimores most of those are in old French...what I really want to get into is translating Kaballahistic texts from pre 1492 Spain...I love how they wrote Arabic in Hebrew letters...

Where do you think BEI's money goes, beer and women? I spent almost 500 dollars last year on xeroxes of MSs. The whole reason why I want to go to London is to check out their library and get my hands on Dee's Liber Logaeth (Don, this was the basis for the Necronomicon IA! IA!)...I have copies but it is not impressive..49 grids of 49x49 letters...

Any other similarly interested people out there???

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 03:59 am: Edit

Raising ghosts of old Romans to improve your pronunciation of Latin, why not?

If you raised a co-operative spirit he may even agree to let you tape his systematic explanation of the pronunciation of Latin phoemes and the like. You could make good money selling such a pronunciation guide. I'm sure the Vatican would buy some tapes.

If people are going to go to the trouble of translating old grimoires and the like, then they might as well put this effort to good use and make some money from it.


By Artemis on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 01:02 am: Edit

Justin on Latin:

"it is awful, translating occult texts from it is even worse."

What the hell are you translating those for?

Lord Hob:

"raising the ghost of Julius Ceaser"

Is that it?

By _blackjack_ on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 08:21 pm: Edit

People look at me funny when I say Yulius Kaisar and insist on saying octopodi...

By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 08:08 pm: Edit

But hows your Latin accent?

As it's only a written language, unlike living languages, short of raising the ghost of Julius Ceaser and asking him to speak, nobody knows.


(Don I'd be grateful for an e-mail of that translation)

By Chrysippvs on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 10:39 am: Edit

I read more almost as much latin per day as english...and the worst part it is middle ages latin so it is awful, translating occult texts from it is even worse. Latin is great, greek would be better for general communication, but latin is definatly a great language for poetry (makes dactylic hexameter a snap) and science...

it is a shame is has fallen into disuse...

By Don_walsh on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 10:00 am: Edit

My father taught Latin most of his career in elite Jesuit high schools (where classical Greek was also still taught) then in Catholic seminaries. Long before retirement age even those institutions couldn't keep from closing, not because the Church forsake Latin instruction for seminarians but because there were two few incoming seminarians to instruct.

So yes I'd say Latin is dead or at least comatose, despite the linkage to the Romance languages (including ones we normally forget about like Roumanian) and to artificial languages like Esperanto.

There are people who still study Pali, the Buddhist ecclesiastical language that Sanskrit derived from, but that doesn't keep Pali from being dead. And Thai, Lao, Khmer, Burmese all derive from Pali. Probably linkages to Tibetan and Nepalese.

By Chrysippvs on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 08:57 am: Edit

Latin is dead? maintains around 40% of common romance language, nearly 70 percent of specialized language...

Ridente Stolidi lingua Latinae.....

By _blackjack_ on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 06:49 am: Edit


Latin on the other hand is a dead language, spoken by nobody.

Latin is still the official language of the Holy See and Latin dictionaries are still updated with new words.

(Latin Geek)

By Tavis on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:28 am: Edit

I'm still not sure whether meeting England first is a good thing or not. Will we not be warmed up, or will we have all the passion and enthusiasm to mix it for the full 80 minutes? Whatever, it'll either be close or we'll get absolutely hammered. We'll be struggling in the last 20, that's for sure. Fitness never was a Welsh thing.

By Absinthedrinker on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:24 am: Edit

I'm still smarting from my visit to Wembly a couple of years ago when defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory

By Tavis on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:19 am: Edit

Obviously, I will welsh on this bet if I lose....

By Tavis on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:16 am: Edit

Righto, I'll bet you all the coal left in Wales we win!

Course, you'll have to buy the equipment to mine it...

By Absinthedrinker on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:13 am: Edit

"I wouldn't change my nationality though, we get our revenge on the rugby field, often confounding vastly superior English sides by beating them with passion. Roll on the Six Nations rugby championship..... "

Fighting talk Tavis, care for a wager on the outcome of the encounter on Feb 3rd?

By Tavis on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 02:10 am: Edit

The Romans has no such trouble conquering the Welsh. That may be because of the geography, but probably also has a lot to do with our pacifist apathetic nature. We really can't get angry enough to stop anyone doing anything. The land (the South at least) now lies raped of all natural resources, some areas are officially the poorest in the EU.

In the boom time of the 19th C, we had to get the Irish Navvies in to start causing some trouble, we can't even do that with any gusto. There was the Chartist uprising of 1839 (I'm from Newport, scene of the climax of the 1839 uprising, which of course ended in bloodshed and defeat), and the Rebecca Riots.

Whilst I abhor terrorism, we can't even get angry enough to shed blood, preferring instead to blow up television transmitters (transmitting in English) and setting fire to English people's holiday homes which plumbed the depths of stupidity IMHO.

I don't even speak the language, never had a chance, and I wouldn't learn now because there'd be noone to talk to. The language was saved just in time, the process starting sometime in the early 1980's, but the valley communities are now spoilt and unfortunately the majority of University-educated natives prefer to leave.

I wouldn't change my nationality though, we get our revenge on the rugby field, often confounding vastly superior English sides by beating them with passion. Roll on the Six Nations rugby championship.....

By Chrysippvs on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 01:36 am: Edit

Of course the Romans never conquered Ireland and Scotland, the highlands were to hard to prevent large guerrilla would have been a Roman Vietnam. And as far as the 9th legion, sure they got massacred, so did the Tutenburg fleet...Germans lit them up like a Christmas Tree.

From what Historians say Hadrians Wall was constructed late in the Empire (200's) and was more of an Anglo-Roman thing to prevent northern raiders for coming down again land owning Celts, (most Roman settlements were in the South, excepting the military sects which show evidence of just as much Celtic influence as Roman in that area) and more importantly as a tax depot for all travel between the two areas. Ant. Wall is a good example of a weak Roman Emperor wanting to add something to add funeral speach.

Ireland also appears that it may have been colonized by Romans as early as the 1st century, copper mining I think. Of course after JC and later Domitian fell from power interest shifted from the North to the South east of the Empire (pesky Nubians with they oh so mean archers) and it was never official or a real invasion.

Bottom line about the Romans in Britain...after 100 years or so it was a matter of amalgamation not conquest, which the Romans did best in the end. I have always been infatuated with the Romans, despite that Masada episode in 90 ad.

By Absinthedrinker on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 12:40 am: Edit

and you thought it was just absinthe that caused the problems...

Expatriate Scots Forced Into Haggis Smuggling
Updated 9:18 AM ET January 11, 2001
By Ed Cropley
EDINBURGH, Scotland (Reuters) - Expatriate Scots from the U.S. to Australia are being forced into the shadowy world of international haggis smuggling to ensure the real McCoy arrives at the dinner table for the traditional Burns Night Supper.
The January 25 knees-up in honor of Scotland's best-loved bard, Robert 'Rabbie' Burns, is celebrated across the globe by the millions who trace their roots back to the ancient Highland nation.
But the real centerpiece of the whisky-fuelled supper -- the haggis, lauded in Burns' earthy address to the 'great chieftain o' the puddin' race' -- is often left out in the cold because of import bans on its offal-based ingredients.
Refusing to see a 200-year-old ceremony succumb to the 21st century's taste for food scares, many haggis lovers aching for the authentic taste of their homeland are setting up their own clandestine shipments.
"We tell all our customers about the bans, but once they've bought a haggis, it's up to them. I'm sure many haggis find their way through customs in the bottom of suitcases," said Edinburgh-based haggis aficiando Jo Macsween. Her family-run business, seen by many as being to haggis what Haagen Dazs is to ice cream, has been working flat out since the beginning of December for the biggest night in the haggis calendar.
But Scots in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, China and Switzerland will never see a juicy Scottish haggis on supermarket shelves due to import bans on the dish, traditionally made from boiled up lamb, beef and oatmeal stuffed into a cow's intestine.
There have even been requests to send food parcels to addresses in France near the border with Switzerland for haggis-hungry Swiss to pick up in secret.
"There is huge demand in the U.S. But half of me is almost happy the ban is there -- otherwise we wouldn't be able to cope," Macsween said.
Haggis hybrids have started to emerge as a result of the authorities' distaste for offal, including hugely popular vegetarian numbers and even a U.S. 'Hawaiian-style' haggis made of a deboned chicken stuffed with pineapple and ham, Macsween said.
It has also opened up a lucrative market for local haggis makers.
Charles Lamb, an Oregon-based butcher, is doing a roaring trade in U.S. Department of Agriculture-approved dishes, but says it's a shame Americans can't taste the real thing.
"Everything that's in a haggis is in a hotdog," Lamb said.
And if public paranoia over what is and is not safe to eat should ever threaten the haggis' existence in its homeland?
"If they did anything to ban haggis, Scotland would rise again. You can't tamper with our national dish," Macsween said.

By Tavis on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:58 pm: Edit

definitely originating North of the border though.

By Timk on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:54 pm: Edit

Not at all - i hvee had many a deep fried mars bar down south - probably the best tasting thing ever to come out of a deep fat frier : - )


By Tavis on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Deep-fried Mars bars, just one of the many delicacies to be found in a Scottish fish and chip shop, although to be fair I think the practice is confined to Glasgow. Deep-fried pizzas are also available.

By Artemis on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:29 pm: Edit

"deep-fried Mars bars"


By Tavis on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 11:00 pm: Edit

"The Romans may have been hard but they were not hard enough to ever subdue Scotland or Ireland which were never under Roman rule"

Though they did try, IIRC from my history lessons as a lad. They built the Antonine 'Wall', further North than Hadrian's, a turf rampart built on stone foundations (more at However this was abandonned after 20 years as the Romans decided to leave Scotland to the Scots and their deep-fried Mars bars.

By Artemis on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 10:52 pm: Edit

"The Romans may have been hard but they were not hard enough to ever subdue Scotland or Ireland which were never under Roman rule."

Not hard enough to keep "barbarians" from eventually going through Rome like Shriners through a strip joint, either.

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 09:46 pm: Edit

...his tool was Earl Grey. A particularly pustulent pox on them all.

He does make a nice cup of tea though...

By Don_walsh on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 09:40 pm: Edit

It was one of Oliver's sons or kin Richard or Thomas who did my family, he was dead by then, his tool was Earl Grey. A particularly pustulent pox on them all.

Our response was to either flee to the Continent to regroup (as the Jacobites) and fight as Catholic armies against the English on any battlefield anywhere anytime (The Wild Geese, of which the main contingent were the Irish Regiment of the French Army, the Regiment Comte de Serrant -- organized and financed by the Walshes, Comtes de Serrant -- athough we also were well represented in the Hapsburg court (11 Field Marshals or Generals of Austria-Hungary were Walshs). Walshs were on board the 'Bonhomme Richard' as French amrines with John Paul Jones and were commissioned into the Continental (American) Marines at the very formation of the US Marine Corps, a service with which my family has a long and proud association.

By Hersaint on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Oliver Cromwell was born up the road from me

Cromwell was born in Huntingdon on 25 April 1599. Following the traumatic upheavals of civil war and regicide, he rose from the ranks of the minor gentry to become Lord Protector and ruler of England, Scotland and Ireland, enjoying the powers - if not the title - of king. Buried with royal ceremonial in Westminster Abbey, his corpse was dug up and hanged on a gallows less than three years later. Some see Cromwell as the defender of principles and liberties, the champion of religious diversity and toleration, while for others he was nothing more than a tyrant, a murderer and a bigot.

By Don_walsh on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Lord H, of course you are right. These others know nothing of Hadrian's Wall or its significance (the demarcation of Roman Britain from the unconquered lands) or the fate of the Ninth (Roman) Legion.

As a Cambro-Norman come-lately (11th Century AD) my own ancestors found the southern Irish to be more amenable to sweet reason and the axe, sword and lance, so we held the Pale fortresses against the old Irish septs (Tobins and O'Tooles etc.) along with our Burke kinsmen for half a millenium till we refused to bend a knee to Cromwell's heirs and/or renounce Catholicism and/or acquiesce to the land grab that is all it really was. So they took our quite extensive holdings anyway (the records of the confiscations are still extant) and there is a grand lament in Gaelic to these events, I'll be happy to send you the translation (I haven't the Gaelic) but I think it wouldn't be prudent to bore the Forum with this.

Anyway as the Walshs are really one with the Wallaces and Wallis's amd are historically close allies and servants of the Stuarts -- I have always thought it sad that the Anglo-Saxons have succeeded in playing us off against each other in more recent centuries.

But the English preferred the effete inbred Hanoverians to a Scottish King. Oh, well. Down through the centuries we Walshs have played a lot of losing hands but always with style.

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:09 pm: Edit

Oh and as a side note the Romans never made Scotland or Ireland speak Latin, we were never under there control. It was the language of the Anglo-Saxons which was forced on us (the Saxons and Angles whipped the Romans ass in Britain and along with their fellow Barbarians, Goths, Huns, Jutes, etc. sacked Rome). The Anglo-Saxons were real hard bastards (unlike the soft, flabby, over-indlugent Romans of the time).

Gaelic, unlike Latin is still the first language of people on the Western fringes of Scotland and Ireland. Latin on the other hand is a dead language, spoken by nobody.


By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:01 pm: Edit

The current Scots dialect words used today descend from the old "Scots" language which was the language of the inhabitants of Scotland that lived to the East of the large spine of mountains which cut Scotland in 2, (the people on the East were calleds the Picts, Pict was Roman slang word for Painted Person). The people on the Western side of these mountains spoke "Gaelic"(as did the people in Ireland), (to confuse things they were called Scots as were the Irish at the time, Scots was a Roman slang word for Pirate) because it was a lot easier to cross a 20 mile stretch of sea to Ireland in a boat than to tramp across a mountain range. Indeed the West of Scotland was at one stage part of the Northern Irish kingdom of Dal Riada .

Hence 2 very differ languages and peoples existed in ancient Scotland. In the 9th century a.d. Kenneth MacAlpine of Western Scotland invaded and took over Eastern Scotland forming the Kingdom of Scotland, and he made them speak Gaelic.

Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic are virtually identical, they are dialects of the same language. Ulster Irish Gaelic dialect is much closer to Scottish Gaelic dialect than it is to Munster Irish Gealic dialect. "Scots" dialect as spoken today comes from the ancient Scots language and is not at all related to Gaelic. English of course originates from the Anglo-Saxon invaders that came over from Germany and the European Low Countries and took Britain from the Romans.

The Romans may have been hard but they were not hard enough to ever subdue Scotland or Ireland which were never under Roman rule. I suspect the Picts and Scots painted more Romans red with their fellow man's froth than vice versa. Julius Ceaser was maybe a bit biased.

Anyway I'm sorry to ramble but the Dark Age history of Britain prior to the Norman invasions is an interest of mine...


By Chrysippvs on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 03:23 pm: Edit

Fav Willie scene, when SLH ran away

"I 'ate that dog, and I 'ate the mess he left on me floorrr."

Simpsons..bottom TV show ever

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Exactly....the Romans did them a favor..

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Also, in addition to Scots Gaelic, many Scots speak a dialect of English called Scots English or just Scots. It isn't just an accent; it has different vocabulary and gramatical rules and developed parallel to Modern English from the Middle English. That's why the Auld Lang Syne song makes no sense...

By Perruche_verte on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 01:25 pm: Edit

"Erse" is a derogatory name (it means "Irish", and implies foreign or backward -- it originated when a non-Gaelic speaking monarch took the throne) for Gaelic, a Celtic language currently spoken by somewhere around 80,000 people in parts of the Highlands and Islands and formerly spoken in most parts of Scotland.

It is sometimes called "Scots Gaelic" to distinguish it from a related language, which is sometimes called "Irish Gaelic" but is officially (by the Irish government and the language movement) called Irish.

Confusing enough?

By Bob_chong on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Is this Groundskeeper Willie Forum?

Favorite Willie scene: when he's singing "Maniac" and dancing in his kilt.


By Chrysippvs on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:27 am: Edit

HWAET! I mean.. I thought the Scots spoke Erse? Anyone have an example of this language...never actually seen it...

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 08:17 am: Edit

yuck...I am not a fan of wonder the Romans banned it's use.

"The celts paint themselves blue with horrid ferocity, and we paint them red with their fellow man's froth."

- Julius Caesar

By _blackjack_ on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:17 am: Edit


Big-ass sword?

That is an almost perfect translation from the Scots Gaelic.

By Artemis on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 06:20 am: Edit


Big-ass sword?

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 05:06 am: Edit


Ye maun gang doon tae that shop richt awa an' gie that shite a richt guid kickin.


By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 03:00 am: Edit

If necessary, otherwise my claidheamhmor usually does the trick

By Petermarc on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 02:57 am: Edit

are you talking about land-mines?

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 02:49 am: Edit

tell me where the shop is and I'll set about them with my claymore

By Petermarc on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 02:41 am: Edit

hey, there was an official poster in the window of the shop that explained on what days you HAD to eat haggis, i think 'hogmanay' was an alternative day, in case you missed an official one...

By Absinthedrinker on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 08:32 pm: Edit

I dina ken aboot eating haggis on hogmanay but I suppose a sassenach would ken nae different. Rabbie Burns would turn in his grave.

By Petermarc on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 09:16 am: Edit

oh, damn, is that bill's birthday?

By Petermarc on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 09:14 am: Edit

actually, i got the haggas for the 31st, which is also an official day to eat it, 'hoggersday' or something like that(not that i knew that before i went in the shop, i just bought it because i never tasted one and i knew it would freak out the french as much or more than absinthe)...we have a new scotish/irish
deli down the street from me, the smoked salmon was flying out, but when i asked about the vegetarian haggas (which they had) the owner told his wife that the one she picked up had expired...
somehow, if this shop makes it in paris, at it's location, it will not be because of haggas sales...lots of beer and whiskys/ies, though...

By Bob_chong on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 04:57 am: Edit

Do a web search using the keywords herbsaint and recipe. You'll find recipes for pound cake, stuffing, catfish, etc.


By Absinthedrinker on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 02:48 am: Edit

I once added absinthe to a risotto recipe that required vermouth. Tasted OK.

Peter I assume that you will have ordered your Mac Sween's in time for the glorious 25th? I'm not sure that the Baird would approve of haggis and absinthe though.

By Petermarc on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 02:44 am: Edit

come to think of it, maybe that is why i was the only person who would eat the haggas on new years... i forgot about oysters rockefeller, but white wine and lemon is good on a fresh oyster, why not, la sala!

By Artemis on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 02:20 am: Edit

Oysters Rockefeller are essentially broiled, I believe, with only a drop or two of absinthe or absinthe substitute on each oyster.

I agree, any cooking other than smoking ruins an oyster.

By Fluid on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 12:14 am: Edit

petermarc: Thanks! That gave me an idea for seitan kebobs soaked in Fauchon Pastis and cayenne... as a snack, that may be tasty. Or am I just hungry?

Perruche_verte: I'll also set out hummos and baba ganoush. Ahhh birds of a feather! You took the words right out of my mouth, "I am vegetarian, non-vegan, and not very strict, especially when it comes to interactions with people outside my own culture and community." Yeah, it took me about a year before I could comfortable watch someone eat a hamburger, but now I see that it's all good. I never refuse food offered, but then again I've never been offered haggas.

Midas, That's brilliant, mate. I suppose I could hunt if I were stuck in the woods and starving, but short of that I agree with your philosophy completely. I met Bambi many years ago in the Cascades (Oregon) and received gifts well beyond the small meal she would have made... I'm veggie and I'm sticking to it!! Thanks for sharing.

Been a week since I ordered, I'll go start the marinade...


By Absinthedrinker on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Has anyone tried Oyster's Rockerfeller? I believe that was traditionally oysters poached in absinthe. I generally prefer to eat oysters alive as I don't think cooking does anything for the flavour.

By Midas on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Oh yes, it's an Australian tradition to have your deceased loved ones present at dinner. Failure to do so is an extreme faux pas. That's why Australian backpackers have such large back packs. There's at least one corpse in each.
And it's true that the human digestive system can handle a semi-carnivorous diet, but it's not necessary for nutritional reasons. Or survival at this point in our evolution. My personal philosophy on vegetarianism is that a) we are at a point in our evolution that allows us to see the effects of our actions, as opposed to having to kill other animals for survival, and b) being at the top of the food chain doesn't necessarily equal the ability or right to kill and ingest anything that moves. It is a position that can be viewed as an opportunity to care for those that are 'below' us. My snake eats mice because he needs to. I have no moral objection to this, or anything of the sort. I don't need to eat meat, however, so I don't.
I hate evangelicism, so I'm not saying "be a vegetarian or you are evil", it's just how I see it, and the ethics I live my life by.

By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Yep. Ireland's Own is a favorite. Despite having all those pictures of Ronald Reagan on the walls, they were always very friendly to my punk-rock friends, as long as we were Irish punks.

They were going to move it down to across from the Torpedo Factory a few years ago, but the residential tennants complained that it might attract, y'know, Irish.

By Perruche_verte on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 05:25 pm: Edit

And yes, about 90% of Irish pub music repertoire (in English) stinks to high heaven. The approximately 0.5% that is in the Irish language mostly leads to confused stares and grumbling.

By Perruche_verte on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Thanks for the cuisine suggestions!

I am vegetarian, non-vegan, and not very strict, especially when it comes to interactions with people outside my own culture and community.

Falafel and hommos with pita do taste very good with absinthe as well as ouzo. Actually, most of my diet seems to consist of spicy bean and vegetable concoctions of one variety or another, so it's nice to find that it all goes well with absinthe.

By Don_walsh on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Blackjack, I used to spend several night a week for several years in the 80s listening to Seamus Kennedy at the Ireland's Own in Old Topwn Alexandria (I lived six blocks away)and yeah I hated the frigging Unicorn, but not as much as the other audience participation stuff.

One of my favorite of his songs was 'William Bloat'.

By Petermarc on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 08:34 am: Edit

absinthe has such sensory presence it is difficult to match with food since the finish lasts such a long time(i love putting food and wine together, but i found after i'd had several glasses of absinthe, i wasn't that interested in food, and that, is unusual)however, i shared a very enjoyable thai meal in london with ian, and feel it is well paired with spicier asain foods (ask don)lemon grass, coriander(probably good with well-prepared mexican dishes, guacamole and chips, burritos, etc.)cayene pepper, etc. and also foods seasoned with fennel...there is a cookie here in france that is anis-flavored...the french also cook alot with pastis as an alternative to other spices which works well with fish and chicken(i threw versinthe in with some chicken and olive oil and it almost was quite good)...also try greek dishes that are normally eaten with ouzo...a gyro, something you could order in a haze and have delivered, for example...

By Fluid on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:52 am: Edit


Well, those canines do wonders on pistachios... as for moralizing (sp?), I stay away from meat for energetic reasons. I couldn't give much of a hoot about the intestines, it's just another factoid I heard somewhere... I'll stand corrected.

And yes, toiletries do seem to go f-a-s-t in my house LOL "three poops a day keeps the doctor away"

and oh, I am pro-choice so I do eat eggs... keeps me from having to resort to tofu for protein. I also consume massive amounts of cheese and fish (I did give up frogs, *sigh*) so really I'm "pescetarian", to be correct. It's land-animals that I stay away from, and it's a personal choice that I have no interest spreading to others.

Since we are on food, anything go well with absinthe, snack-wise? Still a virgin here, waiting on those first few bottles to show up...


By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:48 am: Edit


Aussie songs tend to be staples in Irish bars in USA.

I blame the Irish Rovers. Most of the guys I catch singing in Irish bars these days pretty much duplicate the Irish Rovers songbook, even that Unicorn song. This can be tolerable if the guy has talent and good stage presence (like my pal Seamus Kennedy) but can be downright awful and lead one to excesses like pulling out a knife and threatening the guy until he plays "Black and Tans".

Not that I've ever done such a thing...

By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:44 am: Edit

I like tofu and prime angus. It isn't an either/or proposition. Right now, I don't eat a lot of meat, because it's expensinve, and because I'm trying to lose weight. Vegetables (because they are mostly undigestible) can be far less calorically dense than meat, so I can eat a lot more of them and still lose weight.

I save the rare steaks for a special treat...

By _blackjack_ on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:39 am: Edit


That's not true. We have the digestive system of herbivores; long intestines etc. Carnivores need a straight-pipe pooper to get tht meat out before it spoils...

Our digestive system is actually about half way between that of a true carnivore and a true herbivore. True herbivores (things like cows and rabbits) have some sort of mechanism in place to break down plant proteins, be it by ruminating, having multiple stomachs, or even eating their own droppings to give it another pass through the system.

True carnivores have much shorter digestive tracts than we do and would get sick if they ate too much plant matter. It isn't a matter of "getting the meat out before it spoils," either. Meat is just much easier to digest and its nutrients easier to absorb.

We are omnivores, like most other primates. Our dentation is also just about in the middle: our teeth are not the broad, flat grinders of herbivores, nor do we have the pronounced tearing canines of carnivores. There are some strong arguments for reducing meat intake, both medical and environmental, but claiming that we are biologically herbivorous is just wrong.

Unless you eat your own shit...

By Lordhobgoblin on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 07:10 am: Edit

Anyway Fluid, meat improves with "spoiling", a good pheasant isn't ripe enough to eat until it starts to to rot a bit.


By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:50 am: Edit

Reminds of Kosher...the little fast that lasts a lifetime...

By Lordhobgoblin on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:35 am: Edit


We are designed to be eaters of both meat and vegetables.

Correct, we do have the complex digestive system required to digest vegetables. Eating vegetables is just as natural to us as eating meat but no more so.

However we also have eyes situated on the front of our heads looking forward. The only purpose of this is to give us 3-D vision in order to accurrately judge how far away our prey is before we pounce, we have the vision of a predator. Prey on the other hand have eyes on the sides of their heads to give them better all round vision, so while not having 3-D accuracy to judge distances they will have a better chance to see predators sneaking up on them and then they can run like hell. We also possess canine teeth which are useless for eating vegetables.

Vegetarianism is contrary to our nature, but don't worry, if it suits you that's your business. I've no intention of moralising to you and I won't force you to eat prime Aberdeen Angus Beef as long as you don't try to force Tofu, Soya Bean Curd, and Quorn down my throat.

I just don't fancy the extra expenditure on toilet-roll, bleach and toilet cleaners that a vegetarian diet would entail ;-)


By Petermarc on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:03 am: Edit

i just wanted to find out if aussis really stuff
their dead friends and kin-folk,or just use them as barn decorations... robert does have a coffin in his livingroom...

By Fluid on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 05:28 am: Edit

That's not true. We have the digestive system of herbivores; long intestines etc. Carnivores need a straight-pipe pooper to get tht meat out before it spoils...

I've been veggie for 5 years now, and feelin' good. Real good. While you are tring to "move" that sausage you ate two weeks ago, I'm clean clean clean...

By Lordhobgoblin on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:34 am: Edit

If cooked meat doesn't bleed when when you cut it then its burnt and spoiled.

We are by nature designed as predators, vegetarianism is unnatural for us.


By Don_walsh on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:01 am: Edit

"Tie me kangaroo down, sport..."

Aussie songs tend to be staples in Irish bars in USA. Mostly, "Green Fields of France", "The Band Played 'Walting Matilda'" which are antiwar songs by Eric Vogel, but antiwar songs a warrior can love; "The Black Velvet Band" and "Wild Colonial Boy"

By Petermarc on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 11:41 pm: Edit

so the 'tan me hide when i'm dead, fred..." line is based on actual aussi practices?

By Midas on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 10:52 pm: Edit

"Poor ignorant sods. It isn't really a meal unless there is some kind of dead animal involved. " - That's why we sit the corpse of my Aunt Mary at the dinner table during meals. Meat and three veg.

By Petermarc on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 09:20 pm: Edit

oh, i just realized that might be confused for a reference to the squid...

By Petermarc on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 09:17 pm: Edit

i wrote "'4' legs"...was told not to take ice,due to water concerns, but really enjoy strong iced-coffee, which are almost impossible to find in france....

By Don_walsh on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 08:39 pm: Edit

I always liked the stuffed squid although I haven't had it in about 16 years, and I can't digest squid as well as I used to. But the Viet stuffed squid I used to get in Alexandria, Virginia was a lot more tender than the Michelin squid I usually get in Thailand. (I love Thai food but Thai squid doesn't love me back.)

A lot of Viet food consists of very fine vermicelli-like pasta base with sausage of some sort.

The soups, like Hanoi beef soup called 'pho' are okay, but be aware that the Viets usually build them around tripes etc.

I won't tell you what my favorite Viet meal was (this is a family forum) but, by all means have the iced coffee, which is astonishingly strong and delicious.

By Petermarc on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 07:12 pm: Edit

any viet nam specialities you can recommend while
visiting the area?i love unagi and i will try almost anything... old joke---'the only thing the chinese won't eat with 4 legs is the table'*
*told to me by a chinese friend...
i believe this can be stretched out to include other asian countries after reading a book on viet nam that had pictures of street markets that included just about everything...

By Don_walsh on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Welcome back Bob Chong my fellow carnivore.

While I usually prefer meat rather well burned there are exceptions (like sashimi, where only the unagi is warmed, the rest being merely singed in the wasabi (horseradish paste). Unagi is eel, and really needs cooking...even the farm bred unagi used in sashimi. Really routine wild eels as in SEAsian rivers are truly disgustingly filthy and probably full of heavy metals to given a pass. The Thais call them pha lai, as in the expression 'Pa phalai, Meh pongpon' (Dad's an eel (slippery fellow) but Mom's a mongoose (adapt at killing snakes and eels).

By Bob_chong on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Poor ignorant sods. It isn't really a meal unless there is some kind of dead animal involved.


By Don_walsh on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 05:21 pm: Edit

"The Irish are a race of vampires."

True, blackjack, but we only drink the blood of alcoholics.

By Midas on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 05:13 pm: Edit

My god, another vegetarian... and I thought I was special...

By Artemis on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 10:14 am: Edit

It's not a conceptual hangup for me. I give no thought to where it comes from - I simply don't like the taste of blood.
Meat *contains* blood. Sometimes very little blood.
Blood sausage *is* blood.
For that reason, white boudin is fine. Red boudin is fit only for buzzards.

By _blackjack_ on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 06:16 am: Edit


Fine! More for us!

What I find amusing is people who DO eat meat who get all bothered by blood pudding and such. Geez, where do they think meat comes from...?

Interesting historical note: the primary staples of the ancient Gaels were salted butter, and puddings made from oats and blood taken from LIVING COWS. The cows were considered too valuable for their milk and blood to slaughter outright, except on special occasions. The Irish are a race of vampires.

By Martin on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 05:42 am: Edit

Ugggh... sausage and pudding made from blood... things like that are the reason I'm a vegetarian.


By Germanandy on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 09:29 pm: Edit

in germany we have something called "blutwurst" it is made of blood, ham and pepper and sometimes smoked, very delicious.

By Tavis on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 09:01 pm: Edit

I love blood pudding, although it's called black pudding here in the UK. A UK producer regularly wins some competition in France, but for me the best is Spanish, with rice (I haven't tried the version with onions).

By Petermarc on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 08:56 pm: Edit

i always thought white boudin was made with white
blood cells...

By Tavis on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 08:38 pm: Edit

I like mustard on 'fries', maybe a little mayonnaise too. I used to use Dijon, but now I've moved on to english (Coleman's of course). Then again, I also love patatas bravas, fried chunks of potato with a spicy tomato sauce. At best it's sublime, at worst it's tomato ketchup with tabasco.

By Artemis on Sunday, January 07, 2001 - 12:55 am: Edit

In Louisiana, they have white boudin (no blood) and red boudin (blood). The condom comparison is right on the money. Red boudin makes me retch, but white boudin (rice, pork, black pepper and other spices) is okay.

By Petermarc on Saturday, January 06, 2001 - 11:48 pm: Edit

two stories,
i still believe the best thing on fries is ketchup...the french use mustard which is ok, but not the same...i ordered ketchup for my steak/frites and when it arrived, my boss,(french) who would have never ordered it, happily took half of my dish of ketchup...oh! the hypocrisy of it all!;-) (my wife keeps ketchup in the frig for use on horsemeat(actually quite good)
also, i was at a party a couple of weeks ago and the appetizer was a bowl of boudin (blood sausage)
it is quite startling to watch a room full of people each grab a large hot-dog size sausage made from an intestine, filled with hot spices and coagulated blood and suck out the contents, leaving behind what looked like used rubbers from, well you get the picture...after that, i thought haggas would be no problem, but, i made the mistake of telling the french it was sale...

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