OLD absinthe website is NEW again

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Thru December 2001: OLD absinthe website is NEW again
By Don_Walsh on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Luvlite, there are other and better means of assuring consistency, you are starting at the wrong end of things, that's all.

However I am not about to go into specifics as to our methodologies.

By Luvlite68 on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Don-

Exactly what of my other postulates are way beyond dubious? Is the suggestion that a highly controlled source for herbs that harvests at the same time of every year, under the same environmental conditions, and dries it in the same manner is going to provide consistency in the final product? Is it the suggestion that not maintaining these levels of quality control will not have a result in the final product? If you find something about my postulates dubious and want to challenge me on it, you are going to have to be more specific. Once again, I make no suggestions that JL products will or will not have variability in this regard in the hopes no one misundertands this as an attack on JL.

As far as the thujone is concerned, I am of the belief that higher levels of thujone probably wouldn't change the effect or appreciation of absinthe by that much. I would actually see such an experiment as something to disprove the "thujone get's you really high" argument. Even in the unlikely event that high thujone levels can have a profound psychoactive effect, the experiment is still worth pursuing. I do not see how it would confuse the issue any more. If anything, we should be seeking out such information. I think you assume I am seeking a specific outcome. I am clearly not. I say let the results speak for themselves. And even if this experiment was to be conducted outside of strict laboratory controls and supervision, it still is more information than we have now.

If it is acknowledged that many of the historical absinthes must have used oils and extracts, there is nothing non-historical or non-scientific about performing such an investigation.

By Don_Walsh on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 01:45 pm: Edit

Luvlite68,

The guy who drank the essential oil of wormwood (oil not extract) drank c. 10 ml of the oil, and did so, as far as any coverage I have seen, without alcohol or water.

That's roughly 5000-8000 mg of thujone.

So, yes, 3 orders of magnitude (1000 times) would be appropriate.

And he did survive.

Nor did he have any clonic seizure. He did have renal failure but recovered.

A lot of your other postulates are way beyond dubious. Sorry.

By Timk on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 01:21 pm: Edit

"repeated, protracted and entirely malicious harassment of Ted over the subject of pricing. He responded, you kept asking the same questions over and over. The tactic was obvious. You wished to foster in the minds of the readers of this forum the idea that our products will be overpriced, which is NOT true."

Fuck it Don, all you do is twist and alter what people say to suit your own means, I have never been anything but honest and accurate when refering to or responding to what others have said, but you, a supposed scientist doesnt even have the common fucking courtecy to stick to the truth, or quote someone when you wish to reply to what they say. This is an obvious attempt to twist what people say to fit your own agenda.

By Tabreaux on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:49 am: Edit

"I just don't know how far they went into it - did they test the herbs for essential oil content, etc. or did they merely rely on the senses of a trained buyer sent to the herb farms, as Delahaye says in her Histoire?"

I don't think they did any testing other than a screening by the senses. The educated, experienced eyes, nose, and mouth can determine quality for most herbs. This is all I now need to screen the herbs we use, but things certainly didn't start out that way. Considering what I've seen from many suppliers however, I tend to believe that herb buyers as a whole were more demanding back in the day. I say this because numerous samples of some herbs I've received from some very reputable suppliers are absolutely useless (for our purposes anyway).

By Artemis on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 11:31 am: Edit

"I distinctly recall reading somewhere of how scrutinizing the Pernods were with respect to herb quality"

Yeah, I read that too, but mostly in Pernod's own literature, so I have to take it with a grain of salt. Not to say that they were not highly selective - I believe they were. I just don't know how far they went into it - did they test the herbs for essential oil content, etc. or did they merely rely on the senses of a trained buyer sent to the herb farms, as Delahaye says in her Histoire?

Quality herbs make a difference for sure. Anyone who doubts it should buy a bottle of cinnamon from the store shelf, and then order some Vietnamese cinnamon from let's say, Penzey's, and compare. You get that for which you pay.

By Tabreaux on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:23 am: Edit

> Absinthe was created as medicine, not entertainment.

Amen. Any perceived 'entertainment' value is and always was unintentional. Consider it as a value-added benefit.


> But I'm not sure how much the producers of old were concerned with consistency.

I distinctly recall reading somewhere of how scrutinizing the Pernods were with respect to herb quality. Obviously they elected to grow some of their own, which improved quality and reduced costs simultaneously. It seems as though other quality producers followed suit (photos typically show onsite herb fields).


> Ted cares, and I've told him more than once he's entirely too "anal" about it, but he says a discerning palate can tell the difference. I'll have to take his word for it.

My obsession is with both the correct quality *and* consistency. I've evaluated many, many different grower's products. One may do a good job with one herb, and a terrible one with another. This isn't apparent until you get something that is absolutely fantastic, upon which nothing else will do. The difference is one that can be tasted, and I could muster a demonstration if it would be of benefit. The downside is that the availability of some of our products will be governed by availability of herbs of sufficient quality and quantity. I have discarded boxes of rejected herbs.


> I'm just not sure how much the average French producer of the 1800s gave a shit, or to what extent people then or now could tell the difference between a good absinthe and a very good absinthe.

Like other makers of liquors and wines, the degree of care in fabrication was usually reflected in the quality of the product.


> Such has NEVER been done, and nobody is interested in doing it today, because absinthe is almost a non-entity, much less a non-issue.

True. My 'quick and dirty' (by publishable standards) exploration of this has turned up nothing so interesting such as to warrant an expensive investigation.

By Artemis on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 10:02 am: Edit

"How about the other herbs involved? Based on recipes that I have seen, wormwood is a smaller component by weight."

That's correct. The liqueur which takes its name from wormwood contains a relatively small portion of that plant by weight. I can't speak to any of the herbs except to say that in my reading, I've learned that ALL the herbs in absinthe are known to have some "medicinal" effect. That's why they are in there. Absinthe was created as medicine, not entertainment.

"If absinthe is a delicate balance of herbs, couldn't a consistently grown and harvested supply be required for consistency?"

Yes it would. But I'm not sure how much the producers of old were concerned with consistency. After all, wine varies from year to year and a lot of people can't tell the difference. Who's going to care after one or two glasses of 140 proof liquor are kicking his ass? Ted cares, and I've told him more than once he's entirely too "anal" about it, but he says a discerning palate can tell the difference. I'll have to take his word for it. I'm not sure mine is that discerning. But the important point here is that we're talking about *flavor*, not *effects*.

"I am simply curious as to how much variability in the constituents vary the final product."

It matters, okay? I'm just not sure how much the average French producer of the 1800s gave a shit, or to what extent people then or now could tell the difference between a good absinthe and a very good absinthe. And again, it's about flavor, not getting high.

"Since the oils and essences of the herbs are effectively be concentrated, wouldn't the variability be accentuated in a final product such as absinthe."

Yes, but see above.

"This next question will probably lead to flaming but I feel it deserves research. If thujone levels in historical samples are theorized to be 100+mg/l and that these levels can only be reached by using oils, has anyone tried creating such a monster? This could help put to rest the question as to if such high levels of thujone even really have the rumored effects."

Whatever is present in absinthe that effects the physiognamy of people (I emphasize people, rats be damned), as Don has pointed out, it would take an extensive, expensive, study by qualified people under stringent conditions to come up with the answers. Such has NEVER been done, and nobody is interested in doing it today, because absinthe is almost a non-entity, much less a non-issue. Until then, we all speculate in this forum.

By Luvlite68 on Monday, August 20, 2001 - 09:24 am: Edit

Artemis-

How about the other herbs involved? Based on recipes that I have seen, wormwood is a smaller component by weight. If absinthe is a delicate balance of herbs, wouldn't a consistently grown and harvested supply be required for consistency?

I am not suggesting JL liquors will not be consistent or as good as has been suggested. I am simply curious as to how much variability in the constituents vary the final product. Since the oils and essences of the herbs are effectively be concentrated, wouldn't the variability be accentuated in a final product such as absinthe.

This next question will probably lead to flaming but I feel it deserves research. If thujone levels in historical samples are theorized to be 100+mg/l and that these levels can only be reached by using oils, has anyone tried creating such a monster? This could help put to rest the question as to if such high levels of thujone even really have the rumored effects. If someone was to try it and experienced nothing like walking through a tulip field, this would be more evidence that adulterants were the cause for mental disorders in absinthe drinkers.

We all know the stories of someone drinking wormwood oil along with water or alcohol and suffering kidney failure. However, the exact dosage that these people ingested is unclear. I would suspect that it was at least one or two magnitudes of order higher than you could get in 2-3 glasses of absinthe even if it did contain 100+mg/l of thujone.

By Artemis on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 09:00 pm: Edit

Much has been made of that picture of people planting wormwood. I can't understand anybody commenting on a picture without seeing it, but that's not the issue I want to address.

What I see in that picture is people planting wormwood. The ground is bare for a reason - it has been freshly tilled for planting. The wormwood is in the form of seedlings, a couple of inches high, which is the way they have always been planted. The people are wearing light jackets, which would imply it's early spring, which is exactly when wormwood seedlings have always been planted.

I think what Ted meant by premature, is that IF they intended to harvest those wormwood plants the same year they were planted, it would be premature, because normally the plants would be thinned in autumn and allowed to flourish the next spring, to be harvested the following summer. Or at least that's what Delahaye says in her book.

All the talk about maximizing minimizing thujone is a non issue, as has been pointed out here so many times I'm baffled that it continues to come up. People, if you proceed as though absinthe had no thujone at all in it except almost by accident, you would probably be closer to the fact of the matter. It has nothing to do with plants, harvest time of plants, or any other aspect of plants. You can probably forget about maximizing anything else except essential oil content in the plants in general, as well, because it's doubtful any absinthe producer ever looked into it any further than that, except maybe Ted, and that's only because he had no choice, "following a mystery without any clues", as Mr. Seger sang.

Absinthe is made with seeds and flowering tops of plants. There is only one time to harvest these, and that is when the plants have seeded in the case of seeds, or, when they are in full blossom in the case of blossoms. And that is when they were traditionally harvested. What Ted meant, I think, is that nowadays, people wanting to use these plants, if forced to buy them from less than optimal sources, often have to take what they can get, and that means leaves and sticks instead of flowers, plants cut before or after full flowering, poorly dried and stored, etc. etc. It has nothing to do with Ted (or anybody else) following some arcane path to greater secondary effects through herbal constituents because Pernod did it that way. It has more to do with Pernod having put out the best possible quality of product through using only the freshest, most carefully selected and handled ingredients, and the most careful processes, and that Ted (as I understand it) is wanting and planning to do the same. That better flavor, etc. would follow is only logical, but there is no accounting for personal taste. It's for sure that not everybody favored Pernod, and not everybody will favor Jade or any other given product.

Achieving various results through various harvesting and plant culturing schemes may appear tenable, but it does not appear to ever have been an issue with absinthe, nor is it an issue now IMO. There is nothing more arcane in that picture than that a traditional absinthe distillery decided to grow their own wormwood, probably for no other reason than that it pleased them to do so, just as it pleases Mr. Segarra to age his absinthe in wood barrels.

By Artemis on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 08:55 pm: Edit

Much has been made of that picture of people planting wormwood. I can't understand anybody commenting on a picture without seeing it, but that's not the issue I want to address.

What I see in that picture is people planting wormwood. The ground is bare for a reason - it has been freshly tilled for planting. The wormwood is in the form of seedlings, a couple of inches high, which is the way they have always been planted. The people are wearing light jackets, which would imply it's early spring, which is exactly when wormwood seedlings have always been planted.

I think what Ted meant by premature, is that IF they intended to harvest those wormwood plants the same year they were planted, it would be premature, because normally the plants would be thinned in autumn and allowed to flourish the next spring, to be harvested the following summer. Or at least that's what Delahaye says in her book.

All the talk about maximizing minimizing thujone is a non issue, as has been pointed out here so many times I'm baffled that it continues to come up. People, if you proceed as though absinthe had no thujone at all in it except almost by accident, you would probably be closer to the fact of the matter. It has nothing to do with plants, harvest time of plants, or any other aspect of plants.

Absinthe is made with seeds and flowering tops of plants. There is only one time to harvest these, and that is when the plants have seeded in the case of seeds, or, when they are in full blossom in the case of blossoms. And that is when they were traditionally harvested. What Ted meant, I think, is that nowadays, people wanting to use these plants, if forced to buy them from less than optimal sources, often have to take what they can get, and that means leaves and sticks instead of flowers, plants cut before or after full flowering, poorly dried and stored, etc. etc. It has nothing to do with Ted (or anybody else) following some arcane path to greater secondary effects through herbal constituents because Pernod did it that way. It has more to do with Pernod having put out the best possible quality of product through using only the freshest, most carefully selected and handled ingredients, and the most careful processes, and that Ted (as I understand it) is wanting and planning to do the same. That better flavor, etc. would follow is only logical, but there is no accounting for personal taste. It's for sure that not everybody favored Pernod, and not everybody will favor Jade or any other given product.

Achieving various results through various harvesting and plant culturing schemes may appear tenable, but it does not appear to ever have been an issue with absinthe, nor is it an issue now IMO. There is nothing more arcane in that picture than that a traditional absinthe distillery decided to grow their own wormwood, probably for no other reason than that it pleased them to do so, just as it pleases Mr. Segarra to age his absinthe in wood barrels.

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:35 pm: Edit

It was, as you perfectly well know, in response to your lengthy, repeated, protracted and entirely malicious harassment of Ted over the subject of pricing. He responded, you kept asking the same questions over and over. The tactic was obvious. You wished to foster in the minds of the readers of this forum the idea that our products will be overpriced, which is NOT true. In the end I had enough of your bullshit, and now maybe a year later you are still fucking up this forum with your petty little rants.

Well, this is me signing off on you, twit. Say what you will. The people here can decide who contribtes something useful here and who is just a little pain in the ass dweeb without a thing to say.

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Vera: indeed. You might have a look at DUNE, and the Heinlein 'Stranger in a Strange Land'. Consider the Fremen culture on Arrakis and the water economy, and Michael Valentine Smith's "Drink deep, water brother." Then reconsider the latter in a different light. Recycling one's own, as the hindus advise, may well be redundant as you say. But sharing with another might just might be a form of intimacy.

By Timk on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Don, you have an annoying habit of mis-quoting, mis-representing and mis-stating what others say, this is why I use direct quotes when responding, I wish you would do the same as its a pain in the ass scouring the forums a month later to show that you completely mis-represented what was said

By Timk on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:26 pm: Edit

"and claiming insight on basis of their clothing" as i stated, i never looked at the picture - my SUGGESTION was on the basis that they harvested early and in winter - information privided by some other forum member.

I urge some of you to look back in the archives to see how all this started - it may have been during a discussion of JL prices, i cant remember, just have a look

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:24 pm: Edit

But I will ask a question myself.

What makes you think we are producing only one absinthe?

It is a matter of public record that he previewed FOUR at the Nola gathering, I don't know how many he took to London with him (ask him, or Lord H.) I believe it was the consensus of the guests at those gatherings that each of the products was unique and special.

And there is no reason to assume that is the end of the product line, either. Ted is tireless. And that's all I can say.

By Verawench on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Drinking one's own piss is redundant.

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:19 pm: Edit

PS

For ALL questions relating to JL products all questions need to be referred to Ted not to me. I am not on the job when I am resident on the forum. Yed's the guy to talk to.

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Luvlite,

1. timk has flatly stated in a post yesterday that he is just out to piss me off by any and all means, which of course is pretty much admitting that I characterized him accurately. And that being the case I will follow marc's advise and ignore the little pest. Thus depriving him of the ephemeral satisfaction he seems to be after. He's bullying me in order to 'prove' I'm a bully. Riiiight....next case.

2. Wormwood is harvested when it is flowering once maybe twice a year. It then requires a lengthy drying process. Timk's 'analysis' of a photo of some people standing around a bare patch of earth, and claiming insight on basis of their clothing, was absurd, almost comically arrogant and ignorant, and I pointed that out quite politely. He was not content to let matters lie with that.

3. I come here to Kallisti's punk-gogo stripper bar to relax and talk with my friends. If some little snot in such a bar repeatedly got in my face, I'd pound him into strawberry goo, and feel good about it. This has merely been the cyber equivalent. However, it has been going on for way too long and everyone is bored with it...so if timk wishes to continue he can do it unilaterally, and then there will be no chance that anyone will misinterpret who is the curmudgeon here.

2.

By Luvlite68 on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 10:16 am: Edit

"Ghandi was a passive-aggressive prick who suffered from low self-esteem and had no fashion sense whatsoever. "

That may be so but he is still widely regarded as a revolutionary, diplomat, and visionary by the vast majority of this world. This was the point I was trying to argue which you tried to divert with distracting comments about his fashion sense. Do you imply those without fashion sense cannot be revolutionaries or visionaries? I would subject a lack of fashion sense is more commonly missing from such people.

Don-

I accept you for who you are. I even acknowledge the hard work you and Ted have done. It is clear that at this time in absinthe's history, you two are amongst the leaders. Given the historical variablity of historical absinthe recipes, it just seems possible/probable that there are lots of different ways to make absinthe and room for a lot of different tastes.

The battle between you and Timk is exactly that. What side I take is pointless because it is between the two of you. I just don't understand why someone of your stature would engage in an exchange where no one wins anything. You have enough experience and knowledge that personal attacks are totally unnecessary.

I know I come off as someone that just posts to throw stones so please allow me to propose some absinthe related ideas that I would have liked to propose on another topic before it got heated and personal. This is an example where I was disinclined to get involved in a discussion simply because it then becomes polarized. This happens a lot on the most debate worthy topics IMHO.

The topic of the harvesting time of herbs for use in absinthe seems to have died. However, in almost every example I can think of, there is an ideal time to harvest herbs/vegetables/fruits/plants both for flavor and chemical constituency. So why not wormwood? While this forum agrees that thujone content is somewhat of a diversion when it comes to the quality of absinthe, what about the other herbs? Might harvesting them at different times of year produce a different end product? It seems that these other herbs also add to the character of an absinthe.

While Jade may well have a very well refined process, aren't these considerations that you would take into account at least for the sake of consistency? No disrespect intended to the amount of work you have done on this but it seems that it would take years to establish this baseline.

Would you entertain the thought that competitors to Jade's products can be just as valid offerings despite not being based on historical samples we can find? If the quality is in the Jade products, you have no concerns about the viability of your venture. This even applies to new (old?) absinthes being produced in France. In the end, the more absinthes we have to choose from, the more we learn, and the more absinthe is likely to stick around. From where I sit, the most likely outcome is that Jade products will be the connoisseurís product while the larger corporate entities produce the daily, more pedestrian versions of absinthe with their sickly sweet flavors. This seems to be an enviable position.

Lastly, I believe you suggested that thujone levles in wormwood have little to do with the thujone levels in the final product. I also believe that you mentioned that thujone levels in absinthe cannot go above a certain level without the use of oils. Are these related? Even if the thujone levels won't go above a certain point, wouldn't variability in the when the herb was harvested possibly have a flavor difference?

I certainly would not want you divulge any trade secrets but the above questions seem worthy of civil discussion as they address the possibility of many different types of commercial absinthes with different characters. Of these Jade would only be one. It may still be the "holy grail" but it is the presence of worthy competitors that would make your product truly the champion. The absence of any reasonable competitors seems to almost detract from it reaching its full potential.

By Lordhobgoblin on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 07:14 am: Edit

"And as far as shutting up the young uns. I think that youth and naiveté can often spawn brave and creative ideas that age and wisdom would surely crush"

Fine. But neither should the under 30's expect any leniency or extra tolerance just because they are young uns. There is no correllation between age and wisdom or age and creativity nor between youth and wisdom or youth and creativity. Both 'old' and 'young' should fight fire with fire on equal terms. There are very few prisoners taken on this forum's threads and that's how it should stay.

Lennon did suit Ghandi specs. However if Ghandi had as good a sense of style as Che Guevara then perhaps posters of Ghandi would have adorned the walls of countless student bedsits around the world.

Hobgoblin

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 06:38 am: Edit

Well, we might consider actually talking about absinthe. I know it's a shocking proposal and quite novel on this forum.

By Royale on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 04:59 am: Edit

Piss cocktails and politics have about the same appeal. Let's talk about historical figures and their influence on the fashion of future cultural icons. Did John Lennon look better in a Nehru jacket or Ghandi specs? With a Ceaser-esque hairdo or when he was sporting the Jesus look? I also really liked Vera's idea for thread where only the piss-drunk (and maybe the piss drinkers just for a lark) can post. I know that she slid that idea in when this thread was still attempting to be about people agreeing on something, but hey, it was a good idea. And as far as shutting up the young uns. I think that youth and naiveté can often spawn brave and creative ideas that age and wisdom would surely crush. But I am also aware that those ideas pursued with childlike innocence often gets you burned at the stake. Look at Joan of Arc. (Who by the way had a snappy mod hairdo that worked really well on that Warholian hottie Edie Sedgwick)

By Marc on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 04:19 am: Edit

so are there any health benefits from drinking piss?

I have a friend who drinks his own urine and his breath stinks. Is that a sign of good health?

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 04:15 am: Edit

Lord H, urine is sterile as it comes from the bladder, the pH is way too acid for bacteria to survive.

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 04:12 am: Edit

Marc is right. timk's schtick is old.

By Lordhobgoblin on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 02:54 am: Edit

"If you drink someone _else's_ urine, you are getting whatever minerals and vitamins which THEY had in excess"

plus of course a good dose of someone else's bacteria.

Actually I've heard that the British army are trained to drink their own urine as a short term measure in case they are faced with drought, apparantly it is ok to drink up to 3 times. Perhaps this was just Irish Republican propaganda.

Hobgoblin

By Timk on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 02:52 am: Edit

"You, of course, seem entirely contemptuous of this lifestyle, which sounds like jealousy or envy to me. Haven't the stones to act out your fantasies or the charisma to find partners? Too bad, little thing. So sad."

I am not jealous, or envious of the lifestyle, as it does not suit my personal orientation. The reason that i use anything and everything I can to try and piss you 0off is because I believe that you are a bully, plain and simple. Would someone, I cannot be bothered, please find the original thread which started all the friction, then you will see what I mean. And, as you will notice, all these 'bouts' have arisen in response to a comment or something Don has said or done with which I disagree.

"you would know that one's orientation in a session has nothing to do with their demeanor outside of the session or their station in life."

I must apologise for being entirely ignorant of the way commercialisation of alternative sexualities has dictated the way people behave within that lifestyle, shit

By Head_Prosthesis on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:14 am: Edit

Curses!!! Foiled by the Great Chonger.

You know me too well, dear friend.
I tried to come up with a few original
metaphors. "Slapping Gilligan" was pure
inspiration.

By Bob_Chong on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:07 am: Edit

Head:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't your last post a thinly veiled attempt to get some unsuspecting female forum member to provide the text for your next masturbation fantasy?

BTW--nice catalog of metaphors in your earlier spank lament/ode to onanism.

By Bob_Chong on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:05 am: Edit

Don:

I have no comment about mixing piss with absinthe.

What about a special JL offering, a "Blue Label" if you will, headed for Essex?

BC

By Bob_Chong on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:04 am: Edit

Don:

/i{I have no comment about mixing piss with absinthe.}

What about a special JL offering, a "Blue Label" if you will, headed for Essex?

BC

By Bob_Chong on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 01:02 am: Edit

Nehru a fascist, that's stretching things a bit surely

Does this mean I can start up my "FDR was a fascist" routine? Please?

BC

By Head_Prosthesis on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 12:23 am: Edit

Perhaps someone could review and expound on the benefits and tastiness of sperm? Someone with first hand experience. Not a bunch of regurgitated internet data. I can find that myself.

I'm really interested in the topic as I worry about what I'm putting in others bodies and have to wonder "What was that look for?".

By _Blackjack on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 12:21 am: Edit


Quote:

Or, in case they're Blackjack, resort to pitying their sex life.



Oh, I haven't seen anybody pity my sex-life unless I was asking for it. I also haven't felt any disrespect for my ideas, based on my age or otherwise. Of course, I was reared in the wild by a pack of feral librarians, so I rarely make a definitive statement unless I have a reference to back it up.

By _Blackjack on Sunday, August 19, 2001 - 12:01 am: Edit

My protest was primarily on a scientific level. Regardless of tradition, drinking ones own urine will not provide any nutrients that were not already in ones system in concentrations high enough that your body flushed some out. If you drink someone _else's_ urine, you are getting whatever minerals and vitamins which THEY had in excess, which might be ones you are missing.

I have done things a lot grosser than drinking piss. I wasn't judging. I mean, on a sanitary level, KISSING is far more filthy...

As far as the health risks go, the toxins in urine are so dilute, you would have to drink a LOT of it before it would be an issue, unless you already had kidney problems. I mean, it's not nearly as toxic as, oooooh, say, alcohol.

By Verawench on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 10:12 pm: Edit

I'd like to trim off a few things as well.

Chop

Chop
Chop

You know how they used to carve out little devotional statuettes out of ivory tusks?

By Anatomist1 on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Marc,

On the contrary. I would like to limit Vera's freedom of speech. In particular, I would like to see that she is prevented from using any adverbs. Barring that, I say no more than 5 proper nouns per post, and absolutely no dangling prepositions or split infinitives.

K.

By Anatomist1 on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 09:11 pm: Edit

I was thinking more along the line of long-term wear-and-tear on the liver and kidneys from reprocessing metabolic wastes, and the expulsion of things like carcinogens from the body which are a good riddance. For instance, substances like acetaldehyde and ammonia can come out in the urine, and save the organs the trouble of converting them to less toxic chemicals. Why put them back in?

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Actually I didn't say 'no health consequences whatsoever'. I pointed out two common ones (dental hygiene and upset tummy) both due to same pH factor.

One can construct a situation in which a female urine donor has an infection exterior to the urethra so that urine could pick up an innoculum and deliver it to a recipient faster than the urine could kill the pathogen(s). However, it is reasonably far fetched and probably only relevant to pathogens that are tractible to treatment. Oral sex (cunnilingus) is not a risky behavior, I am unaware of a single documented case of HIV transmission by this route, esp absent major cofactors such as lesions (HSII or syphilis) that facilitate viral transmission.

By Anatomist1 on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 06:36 pm: Edit

I don't know about "no health liabilities whatsoever". Maybe no immediately discernable health liabilities or none if done occasionally. However, putting the body's wastes back into it on a regular basis strikes me as a bad idea from a health standpoint... but then again so does regular alcohol consumption.

K.

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Vera,

I don't think anyone, including myself, has attempted to limit your freedom of speech in this forum. Your posts have hardly been monosyllabic. In fact, most of them are fairly extended reveries. Which I generally find well-written and often times enchanting. You're entitled to your opinion, as is timk. You, unlike timk, actually contribute something creative to the forum. timk is a parasite who hasn't posted a single message, that I can recall, which hasn't been an attack on Don. His schtick has grown tired.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Blackjack, I don't do it, and you don't have to either.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:58 pm: Edit

I just keep picturing my kidneys going, "What the hell is this? I just threw this out!"

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:56 pm: Edit

The Hindus believe the opposite, Blackjack.

The Chinese make a cult of denying their own (male) orgasm while making their (female) partners come, as a means of conserving their own (male) vitality while acquiring benefit from (female) vital essence. This theory is well rooted in Chinese erotic literature for a millenium or so, and one wonders how they got to be a billion plus this way?

One would assume that the Chinese have at least as much urine-play propensity as the rest of humanity. But, I can't support that on the basis of the literary record, and I am loathe to advance my sampling of Chinese women against a billion-plus population that ought to be roughly half female.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Yeah. Everybody knows you're supposed to drink OTHER people's piss. There's nothing in YOUR piss that your body hasn't had enough of anyway.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Hey there, 'Nat.

Hindus believe that drinking one;s own urine conserves certain highly valuable minerals and other materials vital to life.

Urolagnia, urine drinking, is a very common erotic game and has no health liabilities whatsoever, apart from a tendency to be bad for tooth enamel (easily countered) and occasionally leading to transiet stomach upset due to high amine levels.

This practice is not confined to Hindus and SM people, it is a very widespread human practice on the order of 35% to 50%, esp if we define urine play broadly (not just drinking but sprinkling). It is about same prevalance in both het and gay orientations.

The US CDC removed urine from list of body fluids capable of transmitting HIV some years ago; uring's pH is such that it is toxic to viruses and bacteria, and uring is used widely in primitive societies as an antiseptic. As it has been throughout history.

Kinky is as kinky does.

I have no comment about mixing piss with absinthe.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 04:47 pm: Edit

Gandhi actually devotes the better part of a chapter of his autobiography to the difficulties of getting clean shirts when he was practicing law...

Strange mind on that man...

As for Mother Theresa, well, I could go on for pages, but suffice it to say, when she got sick, she didn't go to one of her own hospitals.

By Anatomist1 on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 03:58 pm: Edit

"gandhi's mistake was in always wearing white. White failed to bring out the beautiful burnt siena hue of his eyes. White also made him appear overweight."

...I'd say the drinking-his-own-piss routine wasn't a real winner either.

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 03:36 pm: Edit

" Before long you'll be posting pictures, ambiguous one liners, and sporadic outbursts of self pity. "

Hmmm? Who's that?
Explain yourself little girl.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Vera, I'm sure none of us meant to be patronizing
.

"Senility is as senility does." - Don Gump

By Verawench on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 03:12 pm: Edit

"The fact is, he's a cyber teenybopper"

Deja vu!

Timk, you too will learn to shut up, not argue, and reduce your attempts at discussion to ocassional bit of of monosyllabic sarcasm. You'll learn, little one, you'll learn. Before long you'll be posting pictures, ambiguous one liners, and sporadic outbursts of self pity. Anything to avoid the wordy onslaught of the worldly absintheurs.

The motto of this forum: "Don't trust anyone under 30. Better yet, ignore whatever they have to say and make sure they know they are utterly incompetent because they cannot possibly have any knowledge whatsoever until they spent a quarter of a century reading scientific journals or doing lots and lots of drugs. Or, in case they're Blackjack, resort to pitying their sex life."

I am at this point classifying recently discovered symptoms of prolonged absinthe consumption: crankiness, wordiness, and senility.

::ducks the shit storm::

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit

how did a discussion of Gandhi's fashion sense degenerate into a political argument? Have you people lost your minds? Let's get this discussion back on track.
Mother Theresa and the aethetics of thrift store
couture. Discuss.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:54 pm: Edit

P_v, I am not arguing WWII, I am arguing the entire British adventure in Burma. Yes, the Burmans chose the Japanese over the British colonial authority in WWII as a way to get rid of the Brits, and the Japanese financed their Chinese war effort with Burmese heroin. We still suffer with the aftermath of all that today.

Yes the British SOE backed the minorities (Karen, Shan, Mon, Wa etc) and in the aftermath of the war, wrote checks for regional autonomy for those minorities that the Burmans, once free of the Brits after 47, refused to cash. The resulting insurgencies lasted half a century and the Karens are still holding out under my old neighboir General Bo Mya of the Karen National Union, who have waged an uninterrupted war against Rangoon since '47, which is a few years longer than I have been alive.

Now China is displacing Japan as the real power broker in Burma. This is something a lot of effort went into preventing for a long time.

Make no mistake about it, the Burmese leadership are murdering, torturing bastards whose minions love to impale captured minority women on sharp wooden poles. Vlad Drakul couldn't have done any worse (and anyway saved such fates for turkish troops not women.) In case anyone doesn't get the picture, the pointy end goes in an orifice usually reserved for other purposes, and gravity does the rest, slowly and with considerable long drawn out agony. THAT is what the the United Kingdom left in power in Burma in 1947. Animals!

By Perruche_Verte on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Actually the British were not allied with the ethnic Burmans (whose proto-fascist leadership backed the Japanese in WWII) but with the Karens, Karennis, Mons and other ethnic minorities in Burma -- basically, everyone who's now under the boot of the SLORC or whatever that gang of generals is calling themselves these days. Rumor has it they decided to change their name once they realized how evil it sounds in English, like a villain from Star Wars. "Look out Han, it's the SLORC..."

I don't know that Gandhi needs defending, weird sex life and all; he was less than perfect, like all of us. I believe he did realize there were problems with Nehru's plans for India but there was only so much he or anyone could do. A liberation movement isn't run by one person alone; that's just what historians and journalists reduce it to. The real credit goes to the many thousands of Hindus and Muslims of all classes who decided the time had come.

There is always tension within liberation movements between social revolutionaries, nationalists and simple opportunists. In a lot of former colonies the last group managed to seize power and are running things, often with the collusion of their former masters.

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Don,

I don't want to get into an argument about Nehru with you as we'll end up going around in bitter circles.

Most of the countries of South and South-East Asia are fucked up whether they are ex-colonies of the British, French or whoever. Their imperial masters were only interested in bleeding colonies dry, arbtrarily drawing borders and partitions, ignoring ethnic considerations and consequences, then pissing off when they lost interest or were forced out. Hardly a good recipe for a stable future.

Much blame lies with the departing imperial power and not with those individuals who forced the powers to depart.

Hobgoblin

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:26 pm: Edit

While Wat Angkor was built by the long defunct Khmer empire, the territory of of Siem Reap province (where it is located) was Siamese until the French annexed it as part of the deal for return of Trat provicne in the last century.

While elements of Brahminism still play a part in Thai Royal ceremonials, Siam and Thailand are and always have been Therevada Buddhist.

Anyone who wishes to gain an appreciation of Siam's history and pride at being the only uncolonized SE Asian nation, should see 'Bang Rajan' a just released film about the 5 month defense by a handful of unassisted villagers in Suphanburi in 1765-66 against half of the invading Burmese army, which eventually slaughtered the village, and went on to destroy the Siamese capital of Ayudhya in '68. The Thais drove the Burmese out a decade later and relocated the capital to its present location, 200 Km south.

Bang Rajan is the Thai 'Alamo'.

Also highly recommended is 'Suriyo Thai', about a Lao invasian a century earlier, sucesfully repelled by a Thai queen, at the cost of her own life, saving her husband's throne.

This is the Thai 'Jean d'Arc'.

By Artemis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:08 pm: Edit

I don't know about Thailand, but is there anything finer in Southeast Asia anywhere than Angkor Wat, which was a tribute to the *Hindu* religion?

And for many centuries, appreciated only by the cobras and vipers as it rotted in the jungle ...

By Chevalier on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:02 pm: Edit

Men don't make passes
At Hindu peace activists who wear glasses.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Nehru's children were fascists and genes do tell.

Watch and see what Megawati Sukarnoputra turns out to be. (Indonesia not India but her darry was Sukarno)

How about 'Bibi' in Pakistan?

The former British colonies in South Asia and South East Asia have all turned to shit.

Burma's a criminal parian state funded by opium and backed by Red China. Ask Aung San Suu Kyii.

Malaysia's an Islamic-Malay police state. Ask Anwar.

Singapore's a Chinese police state. Ask any Malay or Indian Singaporean.

India's in the grip of Hindu bigots. Ask the Sihks.

Do we really have to dissect Brunei, Nepal, Bangladesh?

Lord H., I know you are not English, you are a good honest Irishman, but, surely you must admit that this is a dismal record?

Pakistan's in the grip of Moslem bigots. Ask the Kashmiris.

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:58 pm: Edit

gandhi's mistake was in always wearing white. White failed to bring out the beautiful burnt siena hue of his eyes. White also made him appear overweight.

By Chevalier on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Don:
"The Thais say, if you see an Indian and a cobra, always kill the Hindu first, because the snake might just be passing by without any ill will."

You gotta wonder what the Indians say about Thais and Green Pit Vipers.

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:47 pm: Edit

How soon you forget Don. Well maybe you forgave him. That's noble. You're a better man than me then. Let the hand shaking begin.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:47 pm: Edit

timk, if you knew anything, which you don't, you would know that one's orientation in a session has nothing to do with their demeanor outside of the session or their station in life. Subs tend to be the best and the brightest, seeking a little relief from stress under safe and controlled conditions and a finite period of time. Tops have to do all the work, subs get to lay back and enjoy. Commercial Fem Domme houses exist becasue there are not enough lifestylers to go round, that's all. In my youth I was a Top and in my middle years I am a switch with tendency toward the bottom side, but I also run a House with six Dommes, so like my clients I am more authoritarian from day to day.

You, of course, seem entirely contemptuous of this lifestyle, which sounds like jealousy or envy to me. Haven't the stones to act out your fantasies or the charisma to find partners? Too bad, little thing. So sad.

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:41 pm: Edit

timk is some kid in Britain who likes to think he's one of the big boys. There are little dipshits like tim all over the internet. After awhile you learn to ignore them. Which is exactly what we should be doing.

I can handle criticism and insults if they're coming from someone who knows what they're talking about. In tim's case, the kid really is a know nothing. Frankly, I can't understand why Don,
a genuinely brilliant dude, wastes his time on the kid. If tim were smart, he'd shut up and listen more. The fact is, he's a cyber teenybopper
who derives pleasure from insulting people who are far more experienced and knowledgeable than himself.

By Lordhobgoblin on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:40 pm: Edit

I suppose if you're freeing the Indian sub-continent from British oppression then fashion sense isn't exactly going to be high on your list of priorities.

Nehru a fascist, that's stretching things a bit surely?

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Heh heh heh ...

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Vera, dear, I don't think you are in a position of either education or experience to question someone's character on the basis of defense career, esp one you know precious few details about. Wm Calley I am not, in fact the judge AG at his court martial was an old friend of mine.

The military link to herbal liqueurs is an early and ancient one, the Zouaves and arak/absinthe, the French military and Chartreuse Diffusion, etc.

Anyway I was never IN the military per se, I was in an adjunct career, not in uniform.

I have no derire to quarrel with you, but I find my 'balance' quite satisfactory, thank you. I do not suffer fools gladly, that's all. Why should I, why should anyone? Fools are a waste of time and Kallisti's electrons.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:31 pm: Edit

luvlite, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you missed most of the traffic over the last 18 months between timk and myself. Therefore, you have misidentified the villain through no fault of your own. That's understandable, and inoffensive to me. But it is still mistaken because you are acting on incomplete information.

timk is an asshole. He engaged in endless repetitive tirades against Ted, and when I had enough and called him on it, he went off on me and has been doing so ever sicne and that is like a year ago or more.

If you really are familiar with the record, then count yourself on that list you mentioned, but that is not my choosing, it is yours. As far as I know you have never insulted me, and I will not insult you, but you have misjudged me, and if you persist in doing so, then you are not my friend.

BTW Gandhi being both an Indian and a lawyer, jeez, that's two strikes right off the bat. And then there is the record of his allies and descendents: Nehru, Indira and Raj, fascist assholes all. The Thais say, if you see an Indian and a cobra, always kill the Hindu first, because the snake might just be passing by without any ill will.

By Verawench on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 11:42 am: Edit

Marc, wish I had you for my high school history teacher.

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 11:40 am: Edit

luvlite,

Ghandi was a passive-aggressive prick who suffered from low self-esteem and had no fashion sense whatsoever. Jefferson was a nancy boy who
privately went by the name of Margaret Reeves. He/she had an unhealthy obsession with horse droppings and b.o.b. cheese.

By Verawench on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 11:39 am: Edit

The man needs his balance... you know, weigh evenly on both sides. It's like absinthe on one hand, and oh, I don't know, military career on the other.

By Timk on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 11:21 am: Edit

"That's not a type, he was attempting to get my goat by referring to my lifestyle. And of course he makes an incorrect assumption at same time"

So its sub Don? I cant really see that, Actually, you would probably find my sexual orientations rather interesting, but i shall save that for another time.

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 10:51 am: Edit

You can look down at me from your fancy, high-falootin' college degree and make lite of my response but...

"Got luvlite
Everything around you is
Luvlite
You're shining like a star in the night (luv that's shining)
I won't let you out of my sight (luv that's shining)
I don't wanna lose you
I don't wanna lose your
Luvlite"

-Benny & Bjorn

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 10:42 am: Edit

Fishy fishy in a brook
Fishy Fishy on a hook

Pavlov's dog would eat you alive for less than a liv-a-snap...

Try the bait and switch next time.

By Luvlite68 on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 10:28 am: Edit

"Diplomacy is for politicians, not revolutionaries artists or visionaries. "

Do you mean like Ghandi and Thomas Jefferson? If these two weren't revolutionaries or visionaries, I would like to know what your definition of revolutionary and visionary is.

By Luvlite68 on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 10:23 am: Edit

Marc/Head/Blackjack-

Criticize me all you want for suggesting a bit of civility and tolerance for other ideas in this forum. Exactly what about a "no bullshit" approach requires flagrant insults and unnecessary profanity? Are you saying the truth isn't the truth without someone stomping their feet and degrading others? Now I remember . . . it's the person that shouts the loudest who owns the truth. How could I have forgotten.

To be clear, I am not some sort of politically correct individual. I am actually very far from it. My issue here is the suppression of ideas that deserve investigation is wrong.

Don-

I am actually impressed. You didn't take my bait but it looks like I have a few other minnows that are willing to pick up the bits of chum I left for you. I guess there will always be a few scavengers who are willing to eat the trash of the big fish.

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 08:54 am: Edit

Well...
A friend of mine (we'll call him BOB) worked at Howard Johnson's back when it was still for the Golden fogy set. An elderly man with entirely pierced ears who used to hang around Southland Mall, pushed his plate forward when he finished and said to BOB...

"Well that's the orts" BOB had to ask him what he meant and he explained, as you said, the scraps from a meal. He then tossed two bits on the table as a tip. (two bits - a quarter dollar, one bit - 1/8 of a dollar)

Just words old people like to use to confuse young people with. Damn old people! always getting on to the young, like he done, OH it's no world for a young man any longer. What sort of a world is it at all!!! Men on the moon, and men spinnin' around the earth, an there's attention ta' earthly law and order no more!!! Oh dear dear land I fought for thee...

By Perruche_Verte on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

"Orts"? Your language fascinates me, Head.

I never encountered the word or knew it meant
refuse, esp. food scraps, until finding it
in Annie Proulx.

Does it actually belong to anyone's spoken language anymore, or just to literate,
disembodied, plugged-in Heads?

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:22 am: Edit

Ayy! But can I wait that long? You all may be sorry when I get there, if I don't take care of it before hand. I think the now defunct Honey Donuts still attracts the orts of yesterdays crack hoes. Then there's always the drunken HillBilly Hooker down the street. "Spend Twenty with me?" she charmingly drawls.

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:09 am: Edit

head,

you need your pipes cleaned? I know a dancer at
a joint called THE TENDER TRAP who will be your personal Roto Rooter. She'll unclog your plumbing and brighten your bowl.

By Marc on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 02:03 am: Edit

blackjack,
there's a group of young burlesque dancers in L.A.
called THE VELVET HAMMER. That name applies to your style. You have an elegant, yet intense, way about you that I find compelling.

Don,
Regarding latex, the cocktail waitresses working in my new nightclub are amazons in pvc and brushed steel. Vegas broads are fearlessly sexual, powerful and shameless. After being mired in the swamp of New York City's
swamp of political correctness, I find the Vegas
goddesses radically refreshing. Women in Vegas are empowered by their pussies, not defending them.

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:50 am: Edit

"I mean, I'm still a babbling font of useless information"

NO???

Hey, get back to work!

By Head_Prosthesis on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:47 am: Edit

The dolphin is a gentle creature. However as I have just stated in another thread it is often "the juvenille delinquent of the body unit". Perhaps his little Flipper is not getting enough attention. Perhaps it's getting too much as you've stated. I'll be 33 in a few weeks. My dolphin has become acclimated to the dry land of "no pussy". Also I haven't shaken hands with the devil's trouser troll in a few days. Sad really, because milking the venom from your bad wagon is essential when trying to maintain a healthy lifestlyle. It's been said that testosterone is poison. When you look at history and examine the wars that have been waged over a frivilous slice of "poontang pie" you can begin to see the dark side of the bad seed that is SEMEN.

Let not thy seed touch the ground. I was raised a Christian but I cannot accept the former statement. You gotta clear the aisle in order to seat the audience. I once was at a point in my life where slapping gilligan was making me crazy. My little buddy would poke his head out at the most inappropriate times and speak on my behalf. When your John Henry starts signing checks your pie hole can't cash you got a problem. I think TIMK is having this problem. In the other hand it could be as I've said...

He's goading and choading you, looking for your individual attention and rolling in the verbal lashing you administer from miles across the world. I say get him a military flight (on a crago flight if possible, the noisier the better), let him sample your wares and take him to the dungeon and give him the beating he so desperately sings aloud for.

Spread the joy Don.

By _Blackjack on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:46 am: Edit

Besides, Don has obvously spent enough time developing his unique rhetorical style that it's unlikey he'll go namby-pamby just 'cos you ask. He wouldn't be our Don if he straddled the fence, tried to please everybody and stifled his feelings behind a cool facade.

That's my job...

(And you'll note that his life has been a lot more interesting than mine...)

Interestingly, I come off totally different on some other forums. I mean, I'm still a babbling font of useless information, but I'm much more likely to call bullshit and tear somebody a new one for being an idiot if I'm one of the OLDER people on the board.

Could it be that 'lil ol punk-rock me has developed respect for his elders?

Nah. Just the one who actually know what they are talking about.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, August 18, 2001 - 01:21 am: Edit

Head, I think there are others on the forum who are hiding their scene credentials under a latex bushel. However, as far as I know, I am the only commercial dungeon owner on here. If you read down to some of timk's rantings, he called me Dom Walsh. That's not a type, he was attempting to get my goat by referring to my lifestyle. And of course he makes an incorrect assumption at same time. Anyway, this always seems to really infuriate timk, I wonder why? My best guess is that he's a virgin, still throttling the dolphin solo at age 23. Sad, but he exhibits all the symptoms. What's your take on this? Head? Marc?

By Marc on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 11:56 pm: Edit

luvlite,

you hippie fuck. this forum ain't the "political correctness" forum. Its a forum comprised of nutjobs, artists, rock and rollers, absinthe fiends, poets, perverts and freaks. You want sweetness and light or the truth? I happen to appreciate Don's no-bullshit approach. I like folks who "let it all hang out", who "tell it like it is", and who don't give a flying fuck what anybody thinks. Diplomacy is for politicians,
not revolutionaries artists or visionaries.
I have often quarrelled with Don, Vera, anatomist,
morriganlafey and others on the forum. Don has called me every name in the book, so has Vera. You know what? I respect em for it. They're passionate. their honest and they ain't chickenshits.

By Head_Prosthesis on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Luvlite,

I always think of ET and his "heartlight" when I see your posts, makes my mouth water for Drew Barrymore.

That's right Don was making friends and influencing people way before he had a name in the Absinthe distilling world. We love our "Big Mango" and to be "Donned" is the highest honor among Forumites. Timk either hasn't realized this or is a glutton for punishment. Which could very well be, as Don is our resident expert in "the scene". I myself haven't enjoyed the stinging pain of a sensual textual ass whipping... Maybe someday?

Thank you sir, MAY I HAVE ANOTHER??? Or perhaps just one?
Head_prosthesis

By Don_Walsh on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 05:40 pm: Edit

I was on this forum a long time before the idea for Jade Liqueurs came into being. I am not on this forum to advertise. This thread is not about JL. This thread was, or used to be, a few of us chatting about Matthew Baggot's site and various things.

The person whom you accuse me of 'attacking' interjected himself and engaged in his usual practice of disrupting the conversation and making personal attacks on me. He has done this many times and in many threads.

The fact that I am involved in JL does not make me a punching bag for every malcontent with an agenda, nor does it tie my hands about replying.

I'm not here to eat shit from anyone, certainly not on the grounds that they might be a 'potential customer' for our absinthe. I would assume that ANYONE on this forum is a potential customer for our absinthe. And anyone who would refuse to buy our products because they quarrel with me on a message board isn't much of an absintheur, to begin with.

If my attitude offends you, I am sorry, but, I think your advice is rather naive. Well intentioned but naive.

I manage to stay on more than civil terms with 99% of the people who post on this forum, and even have become fast friends with some people who used to spar with me regularly.

The few bad actors such as timk, can go to hell and keep their money, too.

By Don_Walsh on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 05:16 pm: Edit

Sorry, you're giving the wrong advice to the wrong person. I'm behaving myself. timk is the one who is off base.

By Luvlite68 on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 05:08 pm: Edit

My apologies for the duplicate post.

By Head_Prosthesis on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 04:31 pm: Edit

And it is, apparently, to be said once more. Twice.

By Luvlite68 on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 11:29 am: Edit

Take it easy, Don. There is no need for so many personal attacks. If you insist on such a antogonistic approach, you can expect that all you will find is a fight.

It's been said many times before but it deserves to be said again. The people you are insulting are your potential customers and the list you insult only gets longer with time.

By Luvlite68 on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 11:28 am: Edit

Take it easy, Don. There is no need for so many personal attacks. If you insist on such a antogonistic approach, you can expect that you all you will find is a fight.

It's been said many times before but it deserves to be said again. The people you are insulting are your potential customers and the list you insult only gets longer with time.

By Don_Walsh on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 02:45 am: Edit

"...reared your head with a personal attack out of the blue."

Do you mean the Blue Label?

By Don_Walsh on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 02:43 am: Edit

Oh, timk, you are so boring, so banal, and so so adolescent. You really have nothing to say, you only wish to cause trouble, so why don't you just say what you are so well qualified to say: nothing. Go tend your sick granny just like when Ted was in London, you coward.

The rest of us are having a moderately interesting conversation, so why don't you just let us get on with it?

By Timk on Friday, August 17, 2001 - 02:15 am: Edit

"But I can suggest to you that your continued attempts to do nothing but disrupt this forum"

Does this sound a farmiliar approach to anyone?

Once you write this: "Anyway this is so proximate in time to the absinthe bans that there is nothing to dispute in the hypothesis that the syphilis pandemic .... was responsible for some of the symptomology attributed to absinthism." - Dom Walsh , it becomes your hypothesis as well

The thing that pisses me off is that i was nothing but polite and friendly towards you, but as soon as i criticised an aspect of Teds forthcoming product, you reared your ugly head with a personal attack out of the blue

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Mercury bichloride was also used to treat gonorrhea, by introducing the stuff into the urethra. Mayhaps the cure was worse than the disease.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Regarding the use of mercury to treat syphilis, Don, you might appreciate this.

There was a saying at that time: "He who goes to bed with Venus, wakes up with Mercury..."

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:22 pm: Edit

timk, read the thread. It's not MY hypothesis. If you want to quarrel with pataphysician about HIS hypothesis, I can't stop you. I was just critiquing his idea.

But I can suggest to you that your continued attempts to do nothing but disrupt this forum by baiting me, this time without success, are non constructive and do little but to illustrate to the world at large that you are an immature, ill informed, callow nothing of a pest. So you think you are making any friends?

By Timk on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 01:06 pm: Edit

"Anyway this is so proximate in time to the absinthe bans that there is nothing to dispute in the hypothesis that the syphilis pandemic .... was responsible for some of the symptomology attributed to absinthism." - Dom Walsh

"Speculation, like experimentation, is most often known by and for its abject failures." - Dom Walsh

You come on here and spout a crock of nonsense about the syphilis pandemic and absinthism from looking at the patent date on Salvarsan

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:42 pm: Edit

Salvarsan (arsphenamine, Erlich 606) was not discovered till 1909 and the US patent dates to 1911; the first JACS poublication, 1915. The dosage was critical and the side effects serious. There was some resistance on the part of the medical establishment at first.

Anyway this is so proximate in time to the absinthe bans that there is nothing to dispute in the hypothesis that the syphilis pandemic -- centuries old in Europe and dating to Columbus and his followers, who first contracted the disease on the island of Hispaniola from Carib tribespeople -- was responsible for some of the symptomology attributed to absinthism.

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:25 pm: Edit

Specifically Capone (a Neapolitan who was never of any significance in the true Sicilian Mafia per se) died of paresis, aka neurosyphilis, a variant of tertiary syphilis, and not until 1947, a couple years after being released from Alcatraz. He was living in Florida. It's not really the syphilis spirochetes that kill you, it's the lesions their colonies leave behind.

As for syphilis being untreatable, that didn't stop a lot of treatments from being attempted. The application of bichloride of mercury being one, a highly corrosive heavy metal compound that was excruciatingly painful and also had those pesky neurotoxic effects that mercury salts are famous for It's common name was 'calomel'.

The first truly effective, although still dangerously toxic, treatment was Salvarsan, an organic arsenical compound developed by Dr Paul Erlich in Berlin. (Old movie: Dr Erlich's Magic Bullet). Eventually this was replaced by penicillin. Salvarsan dates to (I think) the 1890s, but I'll have to look it up to be precise.

By Tavarua on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 08:38 am: Edit

Makes sense.

That's how Capone went out (a litle point of interest for ya).

By Tavarua on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 08:08 am: Edit

Makes sense.

That's how Capone went out (a litle point of interest for ya).

By Pataphysician on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 07:18 am: Edit

Syphilis. Let's not forget syphilis. I believe (based on not much information) that a lot of what was chalked up to "absinthism" was probably syphilis. It was widespread, untreatable, and gave the same symptoms as "absinthism". I'm thinking especially of the bohemians who drank a lot of absinthe, but also regularly visited brothels and consorted with artist's models (who occupied a social rung below prostitutes). But from what I can tell, syphilis was not spoken of much, either it was misunderstood or was much more of a taboo subject than "absinthism" or "madness".

By Absinthedrinker on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 02:25 am: Edit

In discussions of secondary effects and the predeliction of the Parisian demi-monde for absinthe, a very important point is overlooked. For every poet or artist who drank absinthe, perhaps to excess, there were hundreds if not thousands, of respectable bourgeoisie enjoying the green fairy night after night without harm. I don't have consumption figures to hand but it is fair to assume that absinthe was more popular in its day than pastis is now but there is no historical evidence that the whole of France was on a collective trip. The people who wrote about what we now consider to be secondary effects were the artists and poets and it is their business to provide floral interpretations of reality.

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:28 am: Edit

Bayer actually screened heroin for addictiveness, but the lab techs and scientists who tried it didn't find it addictive. One supposes that the trial didn't last long enough for the physical addiction to commence. Anyway that was the basis for its therapeutic use versus morphine. And the primary purpose of heroin wasn't this at all, it was a cold medicine. At which of course it is allegedly very effective indeed.

All things considered they ought to have stuck to aspirin.

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, August 16, 2001 - 12:20 am: Edit

If we start cataloging the scientific faux pas of the 19th century we will rob Kallisti of a lot of bandwidth, but the one that is pertinent to the absinthe issue was Lamarckian theories of heredity, which basically is what we would now call an extreme form of environmental determinism, misapplied.

As for popular superstition, the 20th century had lots of its own and many of them have survived into the third millenium. 'Demons living in plants' is hardly more extreme than the X-Files (which too many people seem to take seriously), flying saucers, cometary visitors requiring castration, the Mexican folk creatures, etc etc. I won't even bore you with South East Asian superstitions.

By Heiko on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Around the turn of the century pharmacists sold you heroin and cocaine readily packaged with a syringe as a means to treat your alcoholism.
Not long before most people probably still believed in demons who live in certain plants and lend their powers to them.

You can't expect that the general public knew much about the scientific background of absinthe and readily believed what was presented to them through media, churches and other respectful authorities.

btw. I believe that with enough money and the help of Rupert Murdoch you actually COULD convince the world that Tequila is evil...

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Which is why I didn't mention 'absinthism' since 'absinthism' never existed. It was always alcoholism, in some instances compounded by the adulterants as listed below and god knows what else.

By _Blackjack on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 03:11 pm: Edit

I don't think we even have to go so far as blaming adulterants, since I have yet to see a symptom of "absinthism" described that you won't find in severe alcoholics, especially those who are malnurished.

By _Blackjack on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 03:07 pm: Edit

It's interesting that you should bring up gin, since 60-or-so years before absinthe was banned, gin was used as the scapegoat for poverty and crime in London. Like absinthe, it was cheap and popular with the lower classes. Beer, on the other hand, was thought to be healthful and non-addicting, since it was the drink of the middle class.

It is REaLLY easy to imagine a well, calculated propaganda campaign creating the impression that absinthe was an hallucinogen and poison, when you look at the various smear campaigns used against real drugs here in the US. Take a look at Reefer Madness. Even with the beneit of today's better peer reviewed science, anti-drug campaigns use blatant falsehoods to stir up hysteria against a substance. The recent attacks on GHB are a good example of this.

Just to be clear, this is not to imply that absinthe has any more in common with illicit drugs than any other liquor, but to demonstrate how easy it is to turn lies into truth.

By Tabreaux on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:57 pm: Edit

"Modern Absinthe produces little affect other than drunkenness, even if it is keen drunkenness. Maybe it is possible that these additives, in inferior vintage Absinthe, may have caused heavy psychoactive reactions."


Take into account that many of those who wrote so romantically made a modest living, and probably didn't have the best of eating habits or nutrition. Couple a very empty stomach with several glasses of a very potent (70%), stimulating herbal spirit and see what happens. Add some nicotine to that and you *will* find yourself in quite a state (been there, done that).

As far as deleterious effects, if you research some of the suspect adulterants, you will find the maladies associated with poisoning thereof to include the likes of gastrointestinal distress and nervous disorders. Sounds familiar?

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 02:39 pm: Edit

However, they had the support of:

1. the bought and paid for press and pamphleteers like Zola
2. The prohibition and christian-temperance movements, (Blue Cross) which meant to a large extend the churches
3. the pseudoscientists also bought and paid for
4. Bought and paid for politicians looking for an issue and a bribe.

Alcoholism WAS a serious social problem at the time, and absinthe (and all other herbal liqueurs) were the scapegoats.

The winegrowers didn't take out an ad in Le Monde and say "We're ready to sell wine again, so let's get rid of absinthe." They hid behind the toxicologists, the wild eyed churchmen, the gutter press, and the politician-prostitutes. They were sneaky, well funded, and relentless. They were EFFECTIVE.

By Tavarua on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 01:53 pm: Edit

Don:

There is very little novel speculation left. I am sure others have addressed this issue in the past, I am just looking for answers, or at least good arguments. I guess I should have clarified a little clearer that my question is, 'secondary affects'. Modern Absinthe produces little affect other than drunkenness, even if it is keen drunkenness. Maybe it is possible that these additives, in inferior vintage Absinthe, may have caused heavy psychoactive reactions.

I know that the demonizing of absinthe began with the wine producers, for there own benefit, but their statements may have been based on certain truths. Take into consideration this scenario, imagine all the Gin produces got together and made the claim that Tequila causes hallucinations, alter states of consciousness, and is just plain evil. Would anyone believe them, no of course not, the majority of us have had tequila and are familiar with itís affects? Now, if they said it is spawned from the devil, increases the size of their balls ten fold, and will most likely end the night in projectile vomiting, bloody fistfights, and or breaking up with a significant other, youíd say, yea, that makes sense, cause itís true. It is kind of hard to get the support of the public, when their basis is completely false and apparently so.

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 01:04 pm: Edit

That's hardly a novel speculation. Even Matt Baggot has come round that that position -- that it was probably antimony, copper, arsenic, aniline dyes, and methanol that were the real culprits.

I would assume that a large antique-absinthe collection like delaHaye's museum possesses, must have some of the real swill in the inventory.

I'm not the one to ask but I have never seen any absinthe posters that appeared to exploit 'secondary effects'. All (at least most) of the demonizing and description of hallucinations etc was done by the other side.

Now, heavy metals WILL make you nuts and in pretty short order, along with a gruesome cascade of other ill effects. The expression 'mad as a hatter' is very descriptive of the result of occupational exposure to mercury. The other heavy metals have similar toxicities.

The czechs were making 'absinth' in the 30s and 40s till the commies came along and banned it, in the immediate postwar period. So, it is reasonable to assume that they were making it prior to the 30s, and probably prior to the French and Swiss and Belgian and Dutch bans.

It is also possible that czech absinthe making was an outgrowth of the German ban, the distillers just hopped the border.

Until a reliable historian comes along -- not self promotion from Radomil -- to tell the Cz absinth story, how can we know anything? Does absinth appear in Czech or Slovak art or literature of the 1850-1930 period? Given the extent of the western european artistic record, one would expect it to. Does it feature in the music or literature about the place and period, but written by outsiders?

By Tavarua on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 12:36 pm: Edit

In other words, did the Czecks produce absinthe at the turn of the century?

By Joshua on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 12:27 pm: Edit

ive wondered the same thing,you hear stories of people tasting vintage pernod,but never the not so great labels.im sure verlaine didnt drink up all the swill france had to offer.,which now that i think of it ive always had a question,but never asked.but anyways,were any of the vintage absinthes marketed on the intensity of their secondary effects?

By Tavarua on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 11:59 am: Edit

How about non-premium vintage absinthes, when they combined metallurgy with distillation. I have never heard of anyone recovering, let alone purchasing, a bottle of antique swill. I ask this because I often wonder if it is the combination of certain toxic ingredients used in past processes, in conjunction with the alcohol, and possibly wormwood, that caused such vivid experiences. This might explain why those that have had access to premium vintage claiming little, if any affect, differing from modern day brews. It certainly would explain certain health problems that have stigmented absinthe drink, if you do not attribute every case to alcoholism.

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 10:22 am: Edit

The simple fact is that tasting one or preferably several well preserved premium absinthes from a hundred years gone, and having the capacity to understand and catalog the perceptions that come to the fore, is a pre-requisite for building a modern analog of old absinthe.

If one doesn't have that benchmark, just how is one supposed to make authentic absinthe? Certainly not by following the 'recipes', we know that.

Even if one has access to lots of old absinthe, and presumably the ability to appreciate them, such as Mme delaHaye, will still not be sufficient if the people one is working with let economic considerations interfere with the proper production techniques. La Fee is a very drinkable modern absinthe, but, it isn't what it should be.

By Tabreaux on Wednesday, August 15, 2001 - 07:37 am: Edit

> "5) Modern absinthes tend to be dissimilar to the originals for numerous reasons. "

> Modern commercial absinthes


Good point Tim, but actually, most of the modern non-commercial 'absinthes' that have been sent my way are no more similar to the originals than commercial offerings, so the original statement is accurate.

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 11:31 pm: Edit

Dr O, I think most people on the forum will know what terps (turpentine, a-pinene) is, and know that Vincent liked to slurp same, and eat his paints. Arnold has done his work well. But kiddies, don't try this at home.

And I also think more people than you credit know that a thuja tree is planted (by his doctor) next to Van Gogh's grave. Would it have been more, or less, clear had I called it white cedar or arbor vitae? These are also correct names, but fail to make the relationship to thujone obvious.

By Timk on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 11:18 pm: Edit

"5) Modern absinthes tend to be dissimilar to the originals for numerous reasons. "

Modern commercial absinthes

By Head_Prosthesis on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Vera can kiss the Fairy on days ending in "y", all others are MINE!!!

By Verawench on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 06:52 pm: Edit

It's ok, we have a very open relationship.

Then there's always the option of hitting on Artemis..

By _Blackjack on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 06:50 pm: Edit

"'Cos I'm always true to you, darling in my fashion..."

God, I love Cole Porter.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Not that you should be unfaithful to Head, or something...

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Err...Vera...I've been kissing the green Fairy a lot in the last few hours...

By Verawench on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 05:13 pm: Edit

I put forth a challenge to the Absinthe Forum: to sustain a thread solely on posts made while utterly drunk (not necessarily on absinthe).

For a bulletin board dedicated to something used for the purpose of aesthetic and physical intoxication, some of you veteran forumites and seasoned conoisseurs are frightfully sober.

Jorge, thank you for saving me a seat at the table. I'll toss bits and morsels off my plate to Head, that's a promise. Caustic remarks and clever come backs shall be chucked at Don.

Vera

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:48 pm: Edit

"Batting .100 is only 10%. "

Ouch! You're right. That's what happens when you grow up watching soccer and rugby. I meant "batting 1.000"

Damn statistics...

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 04:39 pm: Edit

> 1) Wormwood has thujone in it

....and many other compounds which have been poorly characterized.


> 2) Absinthe has wormwood in it (by definition)

Do you mean in floating in the bottle? Actually, absinthe is made using absinthium is a more accurate statement.


3) Absinthe most likely has some amount of thujone in it, but nobody has published a comprehensive study of the exact levels (yet)

Castor oil most likely contains some amount of ricin in it (MLD50 0.001ug ricin N/g bodyweight), but doesn't (thank goodness).


4) If you are a rat, it is a bad idea to inject 50mg of thujone directly into your peritoneum

...or many other things for that matter.


5) It is altogether unclear how or if #5 would relate to any effect drinking absinthe may have on a human

..it is clearly incomparable.


6) Hill's is a marginal window cleaner, but a piss-poor absnthe

By the traditional definition, it is not really absinthe at all.


Batting .100 is only 10%. To be more accurate, you would have to revise this to say:

1) Absinthe was traditionally made via an alcohlic distillation of absinthium.
2) It is widely believed that something(s) in absinthium carried over into absinthe contributes to an effect beyond that of alcohol, but this has not been conclusively proven.
3) No one has yet released a comprehensive analytical study of an original absinthe.
4) Old 'studies' involving extracts or oils of absinthium are not directly applicable to the liquor absinthe.
5) Modern absinthes tend to be dissimilar to the originals for numerous reasons.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:22 pm: Edit

In the absence of controlled, double blind studies opposing your post, Blackjack, you are batting .1000 as far as FAPs are concerned.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:19 pm: Edit

Personally, I think you're doing great, Don, but...how many people you think are going to pick up the references to "terps" and "thuja trees"?

As much as I hate to agree with you on anything, I have to reluctantly accept the fact that we are a minority...and sometimes we are, yikes!, on the same side...

By _Blackjack on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 03:18 pm: Edit

I think there are a few we can agree on:

1) Wormwood has thujone in it

2) Absinthe has wormwood in it (by definition)

3) Absinthe most likely has some amount of thujone in it, but nobody has published a comprehensive study of the exact levels (yet)

4) If you are a rat, it is a bad idea to inject 50mg of thujone directly into your peritoneum

5) It is altogether unclear how or if #5 would relate to any effect drinking absinthe may have on a human

6) Hill's is a marginal window cleaner, but a piss-poor absnthe

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 02:59 pm: Edit

BTW I thought the one about the 5 gallons of thujone and Rimbaud's poetry was unfair, because if you did drink that much thujone (Or even start to) you'd be comatose, and poetry good or bad would just not be a starter.

But I take your point.

How about "drink a yard glass of absinthe at a go" -- naw, still too much...

How about a more socially responsible FAP such as:

"You can drink 3-4 absinthes a night for longer than Artur Rimbaud LIVED and still never write poetry like his."

or (slightly less pc)

"You can drink 3-4 absinthes a night and probably chase it with terps while chewing on a thuja tree and STILL not paint like Van Gogh."

How am I doing so far?

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 02:49 pm: Edit

OK guys, let's see if I can get into the spirit of this FAP thing.

Have we agreed that absinthe has to have absinthium in it?

And, have we agreed that absinthe really ought to be green, even if we will be heterodox enough to allow Serpis' red (a legit spanish beetleback red) and maybe some clear absinthes a place at the table? Like some LB's are allegedly clear although all of the ones I have had have been light green...

If so that is two whole FAP's

Should we quit now while we're ahead or go for a third on whether or not absinthe at least 'ought' to be distilled over herbs, rather than mixed (macerated as Ted says) from oils, like pastis)?

After the dust dies down we can talk about the coloring step...

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Ah, Chevalier, I think we have a FAP!

"Anybody caught burning sucrose in a spoon would have such spoon forcefully introduced in their ..."

We all know the ending, I just cannot think of a poetic way to put it...

By Chevalier on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Second try:

We're less than fond of the "flaming spoon absinth ritual."

By Chevalier on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:34 pm: Edit

Sad to be of disservice. I truly thought we'd agree on the color!

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:32 pm: Edit

"You can make the most wonderful herbal liqueur, but if you don't put wormwood on it...well...it won't be the same..."

There really isn't much 'danger' in that statement because regardless of what it will or won't be, it won't be absinthe.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Darn, Chevalier, I was (really) going to ask the Forum for a way to color absinthe red...herbs, whatever.

Shit, we just started with the FAPs and we already have disagreements...

By Admin on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Trust me, if you could get us all in a room with a bunch of booze, that would probably happen.

Personally, mild arguing about the minutae of absinthe is what keeps this place interesting. We usually do end up agreeing over time.

By Chevalier on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Well, I may not be THE Marc you were dreaming of; but my first name does happen to be Marc, so I'll take the liberty to say:

"Cough syrup red is not the best color choice for absinthe."

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 01:09 pm: Edit

I had a dream...

Well, it was a different dream, OK? I dreamed of Don, Ted, TimK, Artemis, LordHob, Marc, Vera...(carefully controlled by Head) all sitting at a round table, sipping absinthe and talking about the stuff we AGREE about.

I would call them FAPs (Forum Agreement Points). For example: "Absinthe is fucking great".

Now that's a FAP. No nays.

Let's try another: "You can drink five GALLONS of thujone and STILL you won't write poetry like Rimbaud" Yeah, this was an easy one.

So, let me tread into more dangerous territory: "You can make the most wonderful herbal liqueur, but if you don't put wormwood on it...well...it won't be the same..."

And now I pass the microphone to...

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 09:10 am: Edit

Once again you fertilize the forum with bullshit in the idle hope, you claim, that great discourse will grow from it.

When you know NOTHING, say NOTHING, you twit.

By Timk on Tuesday, August 14, 2001 - 07:19 am: Edit

"2. There probably isn't enough thujone in absinthe to have significant effects -- unless thujone accumulates in the body.

(and we know it does not. It metabolizes readily.)"

This may be the case, but like Ethanol, it is entirely possible that Thujone is not directly responsible for the psychoactivity, and just produces a cascade of reactions, as does ethanol, which result in the effect.

By Don_Walsh on Monday, August 13, 2001 - 09:04 am: Edit

Matt Bagot has apparently been reading us, or else being influenced by like minded people. His site now says more or less:

1. Thujone does not act on the same receptor site as THC (probably).

Sadly he does not seem to have taken note of the GABA system work as yet.

2. There probably isn't enough thujone in absinthe to have significant effects -- unless thujone accumulates in the body.

(and we know it does not. It metabolizes readily.)

3. Ethanol is recognized as the main 'psychoactive' agent in absinthe. Fair enough!

4. Attention is paid to the other herbs and their oils and constituents as well as to ethanol congeners for 'secondary effects' causatives.

5. Attention is paid to adulterants as causes of 19th century problems with this liqueur.

6. The old 'scientific' literature literature is slammed as second rate science. Bloody well true!

All of this (and more) is a LOT better than I recall this 'absinthe faq' being than the last time I took a look at it. It's worth a fresh look. WHY aren't all these other 'learned treatises' taking as open minded a view as is Matthew?

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