A bright spot amidst the gloom!

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Thru December 2001: A bright spot amidst the gloom!
By Dr_Ordinaire on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 10:55 am: Edit

Don't worry, BJ, the State Department has announced that the NA commanders responsible for the atrocities will be extradited and tried as war criminals.

What? Yes, of course I'm kidding. They may be war criminals, but they are OUR war criminals.

War criminals in history came in many shapes and colors, but there is one constant: being on the losing side.

By Don_Walsh on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 06:18 am: Edit

BJ, I agree the NA/UF whatever aren't Boy Scouts, of course they aren't, Boy Scouts wouldn't have prevailed even with US air support or Special Ops advisors. This is all tribal thuggery and when the tribesmen aren't slaughtering others from without the tribe they are slaughtering others from within. Think of it as evolution is a sort of homicidal polar disorder.

That being said, for that place, this is a positive move.

I wasn't proposing the CIA as alternative to UN supervision of transition, I am just questioning both UN competence and Afghan acceptance of any further exterior meddling. Nor did I have any alternative to offer really. The 6+2 Group maybe, but that would include: Iran who we don't like, Pakistan who ought to stay mute but won't, India who are a wild card, The Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens who are thinly disguised Russian clients; plus Moscow. I can't see how this mix will be favorable to a US idea of a good thing, and I can't see the Afghans as doing much but resenting anything foreigners do good or bad.

This is a place that resisted the best efforts of the British Empire at its zenith of power and sophistication at The Great Game.

Mostly I reckon the Afghans would like us all to go away so they can get back to slaughtering each other, but, maybe we can induce them to permit us a limited role in their fun at digging out the Al-Qaeda and Taliban holdouts. They do seem to have learned to appreciate the significance of air power when it is being used for them rather than against them. There was a definite interlude there, when the NA was sitting round waiting for the US bombing to do 90% of their job, and then when they FINALLY engaged the deafened, decimated and shattered remnants of the Taliban, they naturally (from a tribal perspective) praised their enemies' supposed tenacity and war-worthiness, because who wants to defeat cowards or walking wounded?

So do NOT take accounts of the great warriors at face value, with regard to either side. Mostly for them a battle is a 'son et lumiere' -- this is all of a piece with tribalism, and that goes for the take-no-prisoners thing too. Although this seems to be happening on a much more limited scale, probably because of US pressure, than it did a decade ago or even 5 yearsa go. And the Pashtuns are just as prone to slaughter the captives and the out-tribe civilians as are the northerners. Pakistani PROPAGANDA to the contrary.

NONETHELESS show me the gerat humanitarian crisis we were lectured about? Instead, what we have is the ability now to FEED AND CLOTHE the Afghan population for the winter in maybe 80% of the country and that percent is increasing daily. I think the US, UK and allies have achieved a remarkably 'surgical' war with civilian casualties at a record LOW, even lower than the Gulf War. No one believes the Taliban body counts of civilian bombing victims, because the earliest casualty of this war was the Taliban's credibility, and that was entirely a self inflicted wound. They have been not lying but boasting with lies, and they couldn't back up their megaton mouths with their firecracker-and Kalashnikovs-in-the-air asses. BJ, am I being too harsh?

By _Blackjack on Thursday, November 15, 2001 - 01:06 am: Edit

Unfortunately we are also getting stories of the United Front slaughtering trapped Taleban troops in Mazaar-e-Sharif. Let's just keep in mind these ain't Boy Scouts we've given the keys to Kabul. Being less evil than the Taleban isn't saying much...

Honestly, I gotta say so-far, so-good on this. Just as it was getting to the point that I thought our air campaign was going on too long, the UF started moving and getting the next stage underweigh. Now if we can only piece together something resembling a stable power-structure before things start crumbling. That's going to be a good trick, since Afghanistan hasn't had a stable government since...has Afghanistan ever HAD a stable government? The Moghuls?

And I'd love to find somebody more competant that the UN, but, well, I can't come up with anybody who isn't just as bad. I mean, the CIA's track record ain't so good, either, and I'm with you on the Pakistan issue.

By Admin on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 11:23 pm: Edit

I also saw a clip on CNN of a Kabul shop owner hastily pasting the walls of his shop with posters of hot Indian movie stars, scantily dressed, of course. The guy across the street was blaring music.

And a woman walking by had pulled back her burka.

Great picture, Morrigan!

By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Undoubtedly the people of liberated Afghanistan are relieved to be rid of these assholes, men are shaving, music is playing, and women are shedding the chador.

All the bravura boasts from Omar and OBL are so much pig fart. Let them (what's left of them) go hide in their caves and tunnels. We will dig them out. The Allies and the United Front. OBL has pretty much admitted he did the WTC and Pentagon.

Bear in mind, Pakistan created the Taliban, aided and abetted and advised the Taliban and there is still a Taliban 'consulate' in Pakistan, our ally that we just gave a billion dollars to and lifted sanctions against for their nuclear adventurism. So I say Pakistan's role in the design of the Afghan future needs to be a bit muted. Their track record is...what we just had to uproot.

Anyone see any huge outcry in the Islamic world now? I hear only a huge sigh of relief.

The UN and NGO aid can resume in the liberated cities and the countryside, so there won't be too many Afghan people starving or freezing to death this winter, and all this has been accomplished before the start of Ramadan.

Don't worry too much about the 'central role' the UN is demanding in forming the new government. I saw how fucked up the UN's efforts were in Cambodia. They supervised elections, the winner became PM, the loser demanded to be included so he became co-PM, took over the Defense and Interior portfolios and began subverting the elected PM. He blew up a rally by an opposition politician and when the elected PM asked the FBI to investigate, and it didn't take long to find evidence pointing at the 'co-PM''s men, the co-PM pulled a coupo d'etat and the elected PM went into exile. The fact that the legitimate PM was the King's son meant little. What a cluster-fuck. The former Khmer Rouge have mostly been incorporated into the national Army, want to see how fast they can turn on their brothers in arms?

So I hope the UN stays in the background and let's a more competent entity organize things in Afghanistan.

By Chevalier on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 12:18 pm: Edit

God hear you, Morrigan.

By Morriganlefey on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 12:14 pm: Edit

All the politics of war aside, THIS is a VERY good thing, shining like a daisy in a field of carnage -

my picture

A young Afghan woman shows her face in public for the first time after 5 years of Taliban law in Kabul November 14, 2001. The hard-line Islamic rule of Afghanistan's Taliban unraveled, as world leaders focused on a blueprint to restore peace and stability to a weary nation bloodied by two decades of civil war. (Yannis Behrakis/Reuters)

- M

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