|By Mr_Rabid on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 02:53 pm: Edit|
"I can't imagine why Spain wouldn't allow import of German alcohol though. "
They probably do. And they probably tax it so much that it would be cheaper to buy from Betina than SC when the dust settled and the gubmint leeches had done.
|By Don_Walsh on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit|
One fallout of the thermodynics, if you think about it, is that stripping of a fermented wash/mash/beer/wort is a TERRIBLY energy intensive process, unless and until you get the alcohol content up to about 20% or more. Some enzymatic processes with corn as a feedstock can now achieve 25% on a lab scale, but none of these are pertinent to making alcohol suitable for absinthe making. For us, 14-16% is about all we can get, sometimes with certain yeasts 17-20% but it takes longer and is trickier.
So, because unlike an absinthe steep, where ethanol predominates, a fermented wash is mostly water. Water takes 3 times as much latent heat to evaporate as does ethanol. So if you have 16% ethanol you have six times more water and it is consuming 18 times more energy than the alcohol is. BAD.
And this has a lot to do with why it is usual practice to strip a wash to 40% first, and then to redistill that to (depending on how you do it) 80% to 96% as a second step. The first go will be longer and take lots more energy. And the boilup will be long, because if you are stripping say 100 L, you will have to boil up the entire 100 L, even through you will only take off about 40 liters of 40%, crude and stinky ethanol. The other 60 liters of 'bottoms' just gets dumped. It smells like old socks.
After the second distillation you will end up with 17 to 20 liters of purer but still rather crude spirits.
So you had to toss 80+ liters of waters.
And in those two distillations you expended, let's see if I can do this in my head:
14 kW on boilups
22 kW on distillations
That's 36 kW to get say 18 L of ethanol. 2 kW per L. Assuming no heat losses.
I don't think you want to do this in California at least not with electric heat!!
|By Don_Walsh on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:31 pm: Edit|
The procedure I just described is a HYPOTHETICAL analysis of Senor Segarra's distilaltion based on a mixture of physical laws, simplified conditions (no heat loss) and GUESSWORK about his conditions.
NOTHING I said has anything particular to do with JADE. So do not assume anything about how I work. You will guess wrong. And I won't tell you. I can't. It's not in my interests and Ted would do me terminally. With extreme prejudice.
|By Don_Walsh on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:15 pm: Edit|
Maceration takes just enough time for the herbs to give up the ghost. It depends on several factors. For seeds and woody components grinding is a good idea, for leafy herbs that isn't necessary, but they ought to be chopped fine at least; and there ought to be no delay between these procedures and the addition of the results to the alcohol. Once prepared and in the alcohol, which has to be of the right strength, about which I can't be specific, maceration certainly takes less than 48 hours, not 48 days, and I am being generous. Occasional shaking is a good idea but continuous stirring isn't necessary. There's a physical change that takes place, you can look at the herbs and see it, and once that happens, the maceration is done, and any extra time wasted on it is...wasted.
The length of time the distillation takes depends entirely on a coupld of considerations ONLY. One is scale. How large is the batch? And how much heat is available? The other, limiting factor is that it is absolutely critical not to apply too much heat even in the boil up phase (before the pot has reached boiling point, plus latent heat input, and actually starts to boil). And not in the distillation phase. If you char those herbs due to local overheating, you can kiss absinthe goodbye and say hello to nasty tasting herbal glop. And start studying Czech.
That is why absinthe stills ought never to be heated directly. They should be heated on a water bath, or else with a steam jacket. This totally prevents local overheating.
There are simple laws of thermodynaics that cover how long the distillation of a mixture of water and ethanol will take and this is independent of the %vol/vol:
1. The boil up will take the number of hours determined by dividing the number of liters in the pot by the number of kW of heat input. This assumes no heat losses, but is a good first approximation. For example if you have 100 L of charge in your pot, and a 2 kW heat source, boilup will take 5 hours. Actually, it will take about 4.3 hours because you really want to know how many Kg of steep liquor ar in the pot and alcohol weighs less than water and steep liquor is mostly alcohol. So, you probably would want to have a larger heat input like 4 kW or 6 kW and the boil up time will drop linearly in proportion.
The rule is 1 kW will take 10 Kg of alcohol/water mixture of ANY proportion to boiling in one hour. A familiar way to express this is to say 1 Kilowatt-Hour takes 10 Kg of such mixture to boiling.
Once you are at boil up, what rules the distillation is latent heat of vaporization. And this means that 1 Kw will evaporate 1.6 L of water or 5.4 L of pure ethanol in 1 hour if these are already at boiling. If a mixture, the time depends on the ratio of the components and will be between those two numbers. The INITIAL ratio of the components in the VAPOR phase is perfectly predictible from the ratio of them in the LIQUID phase. As the distillation progresses of course the ratio will change. And that's because the ethanol is coming off faster than the water, assuming there is a certain minimum amount of ethanol in there, and for an absinthe steep we are WAY beyond that minimum.
Now, I don't know exactly how much %vol/vol the steep liquor is for Senor Segarra's distillation, but for purposes of this example let's guess that his steep of 100 L and weighing about 85-90 Kg (you just ignore the herbs) is 65% ethanol and 35% water.
The 35 Kg of water will consume 25 kW to distill and the 50-55 Kg of ethanol will consume about 10 kW. That's a total of 35 kW. So let's assume that he had a 6 kW heat source for boilup so that only took about 1.5 hours. Then he wisely reduced the heat input by 50% to avoid boil-over and so for the distillation he is running at 3 kW. The distillation would take 12 hours to complete -- IF he went to dryness, which he would not. He would take care to stop the distillation of his fine absinthe before the product coming over becomes too watery and milky with blancquette, or perhaps somewhat earlier.
So, my estimate based on guesswork about his pot charge and % abv and heat source, comes to < 13.5 hours including boilup. If he has a larger pot, or less heat, or a lower % abv, or a combination of these, it would take longer. 18 hours is by no means extraordinary.
Likewise for the Russians, 48 hours for distillation would just, if we had some details about their still, heat supply, and % abv in the pot at start -- we could balance it all mathematically. If we had 2 of those details we could easily calculate the third; if we had none or 1 we could spreadsheet it out.
NOTHING I have just said is Jade-proprietary, mostly it is simple thermodynamics and can be looked up in any chemical engineering handbook. The peculiar details regarding absinthe will not be unfamiliar to any competent absinthe maker, and they are way insufficient to really help any incompetent ones.
One final hint:
The capacity of your condenser MUST match or exceed!! the energy input into your pot once boilup is reached. Energy WILL be conserved. every little bit of heat you put in will be taken out by your coolant OR ELSE.
And a conversion factor:
1 kW = about 3400 BTU.
|By Petermarc on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 02:52 am: Edit|
don, i asked twice since even i thought it bizarre with my limited knowledge of the process...48 days...i have know idea why, but he seemed proud that it took so long...but even segarra talked about 18 hours for his distillation...it made gramma cranky...
|By Ekmass on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 02:44 am: Edit|
Don, what do you think about 3 day maceration in 50% alcohol? At what point does the macerating time not make a difference?
|By Don_Walsh on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 02:32 am: Edit|
I think this got garbled.
48 hours is closer to the proper mark.
Two day distillation?
|By Petermarc on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 01:05 am: Edit|
timk-i did not take that picture, and it's location is in germany, so i can't comment on the bottle collection...i think the thing in the bottle is one of verlaine's siblings...
of course, try to buy german, spanish, czech, etc. absinthe in france-no way (and it's crawling with socialists here)
did get to try 'absinth king' and a new russian absinth at a book signing hosted by benoît noël...(these two products are not, uh, cough, 'approved' for sale in france, but we didn't discuss that with the owners of the restaurant...dmitry surovov, the russian maker was there to pour his 'herby' brew, based on an age-old czech tradition of finding a recipe in a book about absinthe and lifting it...in fact, absinth king is not terrible, and almost tastes like absinthe, albeit, with the silly herb-infusion on the bottom-which has, from what i could understand (he spoke russian, which was translated to me in french, so god knows where that went)not only wormwood, but anis and other plants used in the 48-day maceration process before 2 days of distillation and then natural coloration by, i guess, the stuff at the bottom...it did remind me of a bitter haugemacht, but more unbalanced, tasting not at all like the french la bleue i brought in...light louche...the new russian absinthe is made from czech concentrate brought to russian and mixed there (only the russians could think this was a good idea)-unnatural color, no louche, even so, better than many czech brands...go figure....
|By Heiko on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:08 am: Edit|
"Isn't all that allegedly German absinthe just Cz swill rebottled?"
Hey! We are well able make our own swill!!!!
|By Heiko on Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:06 am: Edit|
"Import regs? I thought the EU was one big happy confederacy of socialist nations at this point."
Well, there's still problems with that happy freedom - i.e. Holland accepts weed being sold (it's not legal, only they do not care). The borders to Holland are therefore pretty much secured (one way only).
I can't imagine why Spain wouldn't allow import of German alcohol though.
|By Don_Walsh on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 10:29 pm: Edit|
Isn't all that allegedly German absinthe just Cz swill rebottled?
|By Bob_Chong on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 08:51 pm: Edit|
Import regs? I thought the EU was one big happy confederacy of socialist nations at this point. What exactly is the problem?
|By Mr_Rabid on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 08:38 pm: Edit|
Damn and blast!
SC emailed me back. They cannot carry the German absinthes because of import regs.
And the germans are being pussies about shipping to the US.
Damn, damn, damn.
|By Verawench on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 06:09 pm: Edit|
Actually, I find, Head gets ignored in about 80 percent of the cases.
|By Wolfgang on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 06:06 pm: Edit|
Well...do they really distill anything ? :-)
|By Wolfgang on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 05:58 pm: Edit|
Head openned my mind so I could understand the red lady and for that, I should kiss his feet forever.
He his a brillant illuminated genius in this boring gray scape we call cyberspace. He's breaking down the walls of reasons and for that I call him a courageous and intrepid man. All those who digress should be sent to the infernal flames of the Serpis distillery !
|By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 05:23 pm: Edit|
Chevy obviously you do enough to ask the question...
Tav, you funny.
|By Chevalier on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 01:37 pm: Edit|
A survey could be taken.
Does he dazzle us with brilliance?
Or baffle us with bullshit?
A perfectly respectable response: Who gives a shit.
|By Chevalier on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 01:23 pm: Edit|
That's the price of swimming around in this forum, Tav. You know it: Head's been around for a while, people like what he does and they regularly praise and defend it. Don't know why and don't care. To each his/her own.
|By Tavarua on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 12:58 pm: Edit|
"Ha Ha, you dirty double posting bastard. Rot in your own you scum you double posting swine. Why do post double except to irritate us, you silly English kanigit. I shake my privates at your aunties."
See this. It's a joke. Unless you are a nubie who got their first look at the forum two hours ago, you probably would have realized it. I'm sure everyone else did.
"You try to up him, you spend five hours polishing your response"
Bullshit. I don't try to up anyone and I certainly don't spend five hours thinking out a comeback. I could give a fuck.
It seems that I have made a mistake, that when I play along with Head or anyone else for that matter, it is taken as mimicking. Well guess what you egomaniak, thats me, not you. Don't flatter yourself into thinking that I am only this person in a half-baked attempt to be you, Head. This has always been my brand of humor and always will be. We don't have the same brand of humor at all, barring general wacky shit. And hell, once in a while I even contribure to a conversation. So do me a favor and take that crown off your massive head and get used to me being here.
|By Chevalier on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 12:01 pm: Edit|
When you've got it, flaunt it. But don't necessarily say where it came from ...
|By Timk on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 11:54 am: Edit|
Edouard Pernod Pastis With Green Wax Seal, Pontarlier Anis, Elixir Vegital - Yuck! - Nice Drinks Collection Petermarc, oh and is that some sort of Gentian thing in the funky bottle?
|By Chevalier on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 10:12 am: Edit|
Don, I'm going to donate to your vocabulary of epithets, courtesy of Captain Haddock. Don't use them all at once, okay? Here we go:
Gang of thieves!
Two-timing Tartar Twisters!
(In the Farsi-language TINTIN books, "Blistering Barnacles" is translated as "La'nat bar Sheytun", which means "Curse the Satan". In severe cases, it becomes "Sad-hezaar La'nat bar Sheytun" which is "Hundred thousand times cursing the Satan".)
|By Don_Walsh on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 09:54 am: Edit|
Pernod Ricard is NOT Pernod Fils.
And all they have established is a standard for schlock.
Schlock pastis and schlock unAbsinthe and schlock absinthe assembled from OILS and DYES and off the shelf spirits. Distillation? No. Unless pouring stuff in a vat is distillation.
You are worshipping a Fatted Calf, you silly Argentine git.
Since Ricard acquired Pernod all they have done is drag the name Pernod through the muck of third rate products. Does anyone doubt that Ricard is a superior pastis to Pernod pastis?
You want to be a lickspittle to these schlock artistes, you are welcome to do so, but don't exepct any kissy-kissy from anyone else on the forum while their drool is still shining on your lips. Pathetic bootlicker! Retract your tongue froim the corporate P-R sphincter long enough to admit that the vaunted Pernod 68 has been reviewed by a credible forumite of no particular camp, and it is artifical, artificial, artificial.
|By Head_Prosthesis on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 07:29 am: Edit|
Wolfie, it's the only way to type it.
|By Wolfgang on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 07:20 am: Edit|
Ok ok, he is our godly official puppet mascot... But I still have the right to write SERPIS! in red. Nia!
|By Ekmass on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 07:18 am: Edit|
"What I meant was that traditional absinthes needed this kind of sugar "A-bomb" while modern ones need a small or
no amount of sugar."
I beg to differ, traditional absinthes are just fine w/o sugar, in fact coffee w/o sugar is 10 times more bitter. The sugar mearly enhanced the herbal flavor. Your absinthe on the other hand requires quite a bit.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 11:49 pm: Edit|
""Cute, but - and this may hurt - you're no Head."
I ain't no door knob neither."
No, Tav, we know you aren't, specially when you get passionate.
But there is an area, that I cannot define myself. A Forum's "Twilight Zone", where Head reigns supreme.
You try to up him, you spend five hours polishing your response...and exactly five secs later he will cream you with just three or four words...
Let all of us rejoice in our Head...
|By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 11:33 pm: Edit|
|By Tavarua on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:35 pm: Edit|
"Cute, but - and this may hurt - you're no Head."
I ain't no door knob neither.
|By Tavarua on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:32 pm: Edit|
No knives or chains.
|By Verawench on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:25 pm: Edit|
Cute, but - and this may hurt - you're no Head.
|By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:20 pm: Edit|
One more time for emphasis...
You better hope we never meet in person.
|By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit|
You better hope we never meet in person.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:57 pm: Edit|
What I meant was that traditional absinthes needed this kind of sugar "A-bomb" while modern ones need a small or no amount of sugar.
|By Tavarua on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:56 pm: Edit|
Ha Ha, you dirty double posting bastard. Rot in your own you scum you double posting swine. Why do post double except to irritate us, you silly English kanigit. I shake my privates at your aunties.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:54 pm: Edit|
"Love those fancy cubes. Very elegant. Quite pricey I'm told. "
Very HUGE, if you ask me. Either the French have a sweet tooth or this absinthe is not bitter...
|By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:47 pm: Edit|
Love those fancy cubes. Very elegant. Quite pricey I'm told.
|By Head_Prosthesis on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:47 pm: Edit|
Love those fancy cubes. Very elegant. Quite pricey I'm told.
|By Petermarc on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:06 pm: Edit|
and does not seem to contain sugar...
|By Petermarc on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:02 pm: Edit|
in the interest of forum sanctity, pernod absinthe was purchased and tasted today by the german absinthe standards consul, the results translated from german to english and then to english again (don't ask, it's complicated)and are as following (sort of) :
artificial color, slightly bitter when tasted neat and with water...nice louche, but most likely due to star anis, a 'sharp' taste associated with star anis, hiding the wormwood flavor in the background...not the same as vintage pernod, but similar in style to pernod's new distilled anisette(available in france)...cost around $30 for 700ml in germany...overall rating: decent, but what we feared it would be and too expensive for what it is...(picture thumbs twiddling) pernod had the ball then dropped it to neck with the cheerleader under the bleachers...a sample will be rushed to the french bureau where it will go under unnecessary (but amusing) comparison to vintage pernod...
|By Tabreaux on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:11 pm: Edit|
> What I expected to be a playful "Gotcha" ended up being a nasty exchange. I was surprised myself at how much resentment I had inside.
Doc, rest assured that I harbor no feelings of ill-will toward you (nor to anyone on this BB).
|By Chevalier on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:50 pm: Edit|
It's the hotheaded argentino (porteño?) deep inside you, Doc. It's bound to tango with others from time to time. ; )
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:33 pm: Edit|
Ted, this is to apologize for what was PERSONAL in my posts.
What I expected to be a playful "Gotcha" ended up being a nasty exchange. I was surprised myself at how much resentment I had inside.
Don, pray don't take anything I said as an attack on Jade. I am looking forward to tasting it. I wish you guys the best in this endeavour.
|By Mr_Rabid on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 11:04 am: Edit|
piss on the ghost of Pernod
or nectar of the gods
the new coke?
|By Mr_Rabid on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 11:01 am: Edit|
Our lips flap back and forth
like a fart from an anus
we have not tasted it
|By Tavarua on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:59 am: Edit|
"If Pernod-Ricard publicizes its new absinthe, and the stuff's decent enough not to provoke a "Hill's Response" (Enter a London bar, fork out too many bills for a glass, gag, never buy it again), then this should increase awareness and appetite for absinthe in general."
Exactly. Focus on the positive. You could say, "More swindlers who don't give a fuck, know a fuck, care a fuck." Or you could realize the benefits of more products entering the market place regardless of quality. Sooner or later, this niche is going to crawl out kicking and screaming and there will be more of a desire from the public. When this happens and the market opens up, people are going to demand a better product, and it won't just be us bitchen about the quality, it will be a lot of people.
|By Wolfgang on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:31 am: Edit|
"The Robert deNiro blind colonel in "Scent of a Woman":"
Great quote Don, but it was Al Pacino... One of my favorite movies anyway.
|By Chevalier on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 09:15 am: Edit|
If Pernod-Ricard publicizes its new absinthe, and the stuff's decent enough not to provoke a "Hill's Response" (Enter a London bar, fork out too many bills for a glass, gag, never buy it again), then this should increase awareness and appetite for absinthe in general. Positive publicity and word-of-mouth re. absinthe can only help Ted, Don, and anyone else who wants to enter the market.
My question is not whether Jade will be good (I'm confident of that), but whether it will be produced steadily or just disappear after a few months. I wouldn't want the latter to happen. Let's hope that Pernod absinthe creates more potential customers for Jade.
|By Thegreenimp on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:54 am: Edit|
Just think of all the fun, measuring the oil slick on top.
|By Tabreaux on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:47 am: Edit|
Yes Peter, I am looking forward to it.
|By Petermarc on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:46 am: Edit|
as you know very well, ted, this is all good news for you...sit back, smile and be amused...we will have a very interesting pernod tasting...
|By Petermarc on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:39 am: Edit|
even so, it continues, now available at ground zero...
> KUBLER, était distillé par la famille Kübler
depuis 1863 dans le Val-de-Travers (Neuchâtel-Suisse) berceau de
ce noble produit. Ce divin breuvage renaît de ses cendres le 10 octobre
2001 date à laquelle a eu lieu dans le Val-de-Travers (Neuchâtel-Suisse)
la première distillation officielle d'extrait d'absinthe.
Aujourd'hui Yves Kübler arrière-petit-fils du fondateur de la marque
Kübler est le premier à vous proposer un produit conforme à la
législation suisse et européenne, notamment en ce qui concerne la
teneur en Thuyone.
|By Tabreaux on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:26 am: Edit|
La Fee likewise claims to be from an 'old recipe' provided by Mdme Delahaye (beaucoup credentials), and it isn't very convincing (as you know Peter). There are reasons for this which are not obvious to the consumer.
Budweiser certainly has the resources to make a fine beer, but that isn't in the best financial interest of such a large company. Just as Budweiser has done for beer, Pernod has the resources to set a standard of sorts for modern absinthe. If they actually do or not means little to us (Jade).
The current Pernod company has little more in common with the old Pernod Fils than does Hill's. If the modern Pernod product is a 'good absinthe' or not, that depends on one's individual definition of a 'good absinthe'. Some feel Hill's to be a 'good absinth', while to others, Hill's isn't even absinthe at all. It's all relative to knowledge and perspective.
As far as the Pernod product being a reproduction of the 1805 protocol, that remains to be seen. I am highly dubious of this for numerous reasons. This claim should come as no surprise however, as virtually every commercial absinthe and even non-absinthes boast type of 'originality' claim, which is an obvious blunder only to the minority who know better.
Pernod's products seem to aim for the new standard (based on economics), we are interested in the old standard (based on quality and authenticity). There will always be markets for both, just as there are markets for both Korbel and Dom Perignon. In fact, becoming familiar with the former, if anything, will improve one's awareness and appreciation for the latter.
BTW, those of you who attended the get-together last March have already sampled the 1805 Pernod protocol (surprise).
|By Heiko on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:26 am: Edit|
if Pernod cared about the quality of products carrying their name, would they sell Pernod pastis ???
|By Bob_Chong on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:19 am: Edit|
Doesn't every swill claim historical lineage, tho'?
|By Petermarc on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:54 am: Edit|
they do claim to be working from an original recipe, for what it is worth...anyone tried to make a soufflé?
|By Etienne on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:35 am: Edit|
I think you made a major point about the lack of continuity between the original Pernod and the new. There isn't any. Pernod-Ricard may have inherited some of the records of the original company, but there's no real reason to assume that's the case. I doubt that the people at the company now have any experience with the type of work that would be required to produce a "real" absinthe.
|By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 06:43 am: Edit|
P-R is Big Liquor and Big Beverage.
Their 'niche' interest aproaches zero asymptotically.
Real absinthe is a niche.
|By Bob_Chong on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 06:30 am: Edit|
Pernod 'should' be able to make absinthe like before, however, this doesn't seem to be the case
Agreed. Why bother making something good, when Hills outsells LaFee? Just slap together some bullshit oils and put the word "absinthe" on the label.
Of course, I'd welcome a decent entry into the market from Pernod. But there is really no evidence to suggest we withhold cynicism here.
|By Don_Walsh on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:26 am: Edit|
Hey, Dr Asshole, you pick a fight with Ted, you pick yet another fight with me. Fuck you.
As you can read below this 'Pernod Absinthe' is yet another fake phony made from oils bullshit UnAbsinthe. Doubtless Pernod Ricard 'could' if they wanted to, spend the time and money to research how to make real absinthe properly. You can bank on the fact that they do not have the old information as the company has NO real continuity from the original firm at all. Save the name!
Being a French firm they have all the prejudices against real absinthe that all French people seem to share, courtesy of all that old propaganda in favor of the wine business. Being pastis makers they understand the economy of mixing oils with water and dyes. In short they are schlock meisters, and no schlockmeister is ever going to put forth the effort to do this right.
To paraphrase the Robert deNiro blind colonel in "Scent of a Woman": many times in my life I have come to a crossroads, and every time I knew, without exception I knew, right from wrong. Did I do right? No. Why not? Because IT WAS TOO DAMNED HARD.
That sums it up for Pernod-Ricard.
As for Dr Asshole, he doesn't even know how. He's too busy playing with stupid damiana.
Fuck yourself, Dr.A. Your absinthe is as bad and as phony as your politics.
|By Absinthedrinker on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 03:29 am: Edit|
Congratulations on getting through to Sandrine Peter. I hope that nobody tries to take a bottle of this absinthe into the Hotel de la Poste in Pontarlier though, I recall that putting 'Absinthe' and '68' on a label caused a few problems.
It is not impossible for a large multinational corporation to make a high quality (high priced) item and have people queuing up to buy it, think of Fiat and Ferrari.
|By Petermarc on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 02:31 am: Edit|
i just got off the phone with my buddy
sandrine at pernod/cusenier...she is not in charge of that product, but says it is very new and is available in germany, but also soon ...in france...she said it is not an 'absinthe' in the historical sense, because of regulations, but a 'spiritueux aux plantes d'absinthe'...same story as oxygénée...but it is 68°...so, what have we got? something like, maybe better than oxygénée...i was told it didn't have sugar (she didn't tell me this)she couldn't tell me much more except to call back in a week and talk to someone else (they were in the middle of closing the year's books)so...
i do agree with dr. o that pernod 'should' be able to make absinthe like before, however, this doesn't seem to be the case, if it will be sold in france...the regs can only be twisted so much here...it's too bad...
|By Heiko on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:59 am: Edit|
Someone came up with that new Pernod absinthe on a German forum a few weeks ago - somebody who had obviously tried a sample (but wasn't capable of telling if it tasted distilled or not).
I told this person that I don't believe it will be distilled, because when people gladly buy Hills as a "specialty" for much too much money, why should Pernod make their absinthe extraordinarily good? They just need to sell a decent oil mix that is about as good as Deva, Tabu or Ricard to be one of the best Absinthes available. Add their brand name to this and they are market leaders in no time, with only a good oil-mix.
I have found out recently that the quite good "Absinthus" (comparable to some Spanish, not great, but ok) was first made without star anise because the maker didn't even know absinthe was supposed to louche. Then somebody told him, he started adding some oil of star anise, and there we go: an acceptable product that is one of the best German absinthes...
You don't need any special knowledge to easily mix a rather good absinthe (for today's standards which are really low!)
The only ones who want to distill are Segarra or Jade because they want to produce real absinthe for connoisseurs (who else knows the difference???)
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:03 am: Edit|
Wow, Rabid, what a switch...
From coming down from mayor-adrenaline-rush vis-a-vis Ted to your post...
If my friend's (Dr. O) experience is valid, it is not more expensive to "brew" absinthe than any other liqueur. If Segarra is an example, far less.
If Pernod can sell Pastis, they can sell absinthe at a profit.
Especially because they can price absinthe higher because of the.....mistery...
|By Mr_Rabid on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:56 pm: Edit|
No no, Doctor O.
I am not saying they *can't*, I am saying it is not as economically viable to do so.
Because I don't think they know how at this point, which means they would have to do the research etc.
And all for a market that gladly buys Sw(h)ills.
Or will the corporation called Pernod simply use the history as a marketing gimmick?
If there are enough people in power there with an aesthetic sense that it would be wrong to piss on the glory that once was, I guess they might make it like it was.
Corporations do not often move in those ways.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:44 pm: Edit|
Doc O. has asked me to quit this thread in the interest of peace in the Forum.
Since he is usually right, I will agree.
|By Tabreaux on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:40 pm: Edit|
> I've laughing all night...
Yes, the entire thread is quite laughable.
> Since when asking about the thujone content of vintage absinthes is proprietary information?
I do not consider said information to be 'proprietary' and never did. Be advised that I do not disclose information in bits and pieces because I do not care to repeat the mistakes of others. Furthermore, the answer to your question is not as simple as it seems. I will advise when the information you seek is complete.
> Yes, Ted, I have a beef with you.
I'm sorry to hear that.
> And now I'm finally in a position where you cannot bullshit your way out of it.
I don't bullshit. I don't need to.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:30 pm: Edit|
Well, this is going from the Absinthe Forum to the Surrealism Forum.
Rabid, are you really suggesting that the company that was the largest provider of the best absinthe 100 years away cannot make good absinthe now...?
|By Mr_Rabid on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:23 pm: Edit|
What I want is for SC to start carrying these German absinthes.
And I think Pernod might make some really crappy absinthe, but probably it will be as good (but not better) than Deva.
Because recipie shmecipie. Distillation is half art, and if you disagree there- it sure as hell wasn't pure science in the Belle Epoch.
And the guys with the art who made Pernod Absinthe are all green tinged dust in their graves.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 11:06 pm: Edit|
"Well, the real agenda finally surfaces. I knew there had to be some reason behind comment after ridiculous comment I've been reading in this thread"
Sorry it took you so long, Ted. I've laughing all night...
Since when asking about the thujone content of vintage absinthes is proprietary information?
Yes, Ted, I have a beef with you. And now I'm finally in a position where you cannot bullshit your way out of it.
|By Tabreaux on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:53 pm: Edit|
> Who I would like to see squirm is the person who ignored how much effort Dr. O put at making absinthe, patronized him and told him: "I will tell you the truth when I think you're ready"
> A person who has done this to Dr. O for a year, is past my mercy quotient.
> After he's finished, one of us is going to look like an asshole.
Well, the real agenda finally surfaces. I knew there had to be some reason behind comment after ridiculous comment I've been reading in this thread.
The fact is, no one here is patronizing you. To set the record straight, I recall you once demanding access to research that still has not yet been completed, and has been funded solely out of my pocket with no outside subsidy whatsoever (and certainly none from you). The status remains that I will release it when it is ready and I am ready. This has long since been forgotten to all but yourself, so get over it. If you have an axe to grind, confront the party with whom you perceive a problem via email (i.e. me) and resolve it like an adult. There is no reason to throw fits in a public forum over your personal agendas.
Additionally, the following quote: "totally imaginary secondary effects of absinthe", is completely fictious where my words are concerned.
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:21 pm: Edit|
Speaking of the german market, I am talking to a friend there now on IM chat (this is so great and crystal clear)...it appears there are 10 new absinthes in Germany now:
Tabu red 55%
Rauch Absinth 55.5%
Now how these are compared to the spanish is unknown, however I know that Absinthe Tabu is pretty good. I honestly perfer it over Deva, and probably over la fee if push came to shove.
K, looks like we may need to give germany it's own section in the buyers guide...
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 10:05 pm: Edit|
Justin, you are probably the nicest person in the universe and you have been a good friend from the moment go.
Who I would like to see squirm is the person who ignored how much effort Dr. O put at making absinthe, patronized him and told him: "I will tell you the truth when I think you're ready" "Thujone, never heard of it" "Thujone, is unimportant" "Thujone, you HAVE to rethink anything you think about it."
A person who has done this to Dr. O for a year, is past my mercy quotient.
So, would this person start talking about thujone?
After he's finished, one of us is going to look like an asshole.
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:58 pm: Edit|
GC just for any chemical signatures, thujone or Jesus's blood...anything. At that point we can start honestly knowing something rather than just shooting off out mouth about a company we know little or nothing about, and an absinthe not one of us has tasted right off the still...
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:52 pm: Edit|
GC testing for what? You are not talking about the T word? Surely not.
Because many of us have been chastised for suggesting that such molecule had anything to do with the "totally imaginary" secondary effects of absinthe...?
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:43 pm: Edit|
"J., it shows you are not a Hausgemachter, or a professional distiller."
Yep, never claimed to be. Matter of fact I had to ask you about that word a few days ago (yeah yeah I need to read this forum more often). But I can't imagine why a major corporation would invest the time in a product that only enjoys a marginal amount of popularity in the entire world. It can't even be sold in the USA, Switzerland, or France.
All things aside...this is all BS until one of us gets the stuff in hand and/or puts it in the GC for testing. I have my doubts based on the rest of Pernod's products...could Pernod make a good absinthe sure, but car companies could also make cars that work on dog poo if they wanted..the issue is profitability and I don't see them remaking an absinthe that less than 1% of the world population has ever or will ever taste, when they can make an inferior product, put thier name on it and no will know the difference.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:16 pm: Edit|
"Is looking restricted to Googling or looking under rocks and what not?"
Well, no, Head. Looking (and making good absinthe) is open to any people who spend the time and effort necessary.
No need to be a chemist. No need to be a distiller. The recipes are available.
Paraphrasing Hamlet: The rest is bullshit...
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:05 pm: Edit|
J., it shows you are not a Hausgemachter, or a professional distiller.
As Don pointed a long time ago, the prices for herbs drop immensely when you buy bulk.
Versinthe has some 20 herbs in it and it is not priced out of our reach.
I (and you) know the herbs involved in Pernod. No way they would make the product too expensive.
|By Head_Prosthesis on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:04 pm: Edit|
Is looking restricted to Googling or looking under rocks and what not?
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 09:00 pm: Edit|
I feel the costs would simply be too high for them to honestly expect to make the kind of profit that they see on the rest of their products. At best I think this is the final version of the Oxygenee experiment. I am trying to get my hand on a bottle, but I would be willing to put money on the theory that at best this is just the final form of oxygenee...
as for their recpies you can get them too if you look hard enough, pernod and similar absinthe compaines more or less published the basic methods of making their absinthes.
|By Artist on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 08:52 pm: Edit|
Sorry, Dr. O...Missouri is known as the "Show Me" state.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 08:25 pm: Edit|
Why are you assuming that Pernod would NOT use the original recipe...?
They obviously have it in their records.
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 08:19 pm: Edit|
Well honestly when we talk about Pernod, we are talking about a very different family and entity than that which existed 85 years ago. To compare the Pernod of yester-year to that of today is really only workable in name. the Pernod-Ricard group is not the Pernod of the Belle Epoque.
Also we have tons of recipies from back in the day, and some are good and some are bad. Still, even if we suppose that Pernod-Ricard has a good recipie from then how can we assume that they will reproduce vintage absinthe, when their apparent first effort, Oxygenee, is at best good pastis.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 08:02 pm: Edit|
Am I to suppose that the brew created by someone who has tasted "One-hundred-year-old-bottles-of-oxidized-(feuille mort)-Pernod" is truer to Pernod 1805 than Pernod itself?
|By Verawench on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:58 pm: Edit|
I feel like a cheerleader.
|By Verawench on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:58 pm: Edit|
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:52 pm: Edit|
Err...J. Pernod ACTUALLY has the recipes...am I missing something here?
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:43 pm: Edit|
It may be Pernod but honestly..look at their pastis, and they claim it to by the books...how good can their absinthe be? I am curious to know, but I don't think that just becuase Pernod did it there is any sign of quality.
Making Pernod Pastis and vintage like Pernod absithe are two radically different things.
|By Verawench on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:39 pm: Edit|
Ted should cease to hint.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:36 pm: Edit|
Vera, you can hint when you are competing against Hills.
We are talking Pernod...THE Pernod here.
|By Verawench on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:34 pm: Edit|
It's what Ted does.
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 07:34 pm: Edit|
"Like people from Missouri say... "
When you say it, Artist, please use subtitles. I spent most ot "Oh Brother, where art thou?" elbowing my sweetie and asking: "What did he say?"
|By Artist on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 06:40 pm: Edit|
Yes, I'm with you Dr. O...Like people from Missouri say...
|By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 06:28 pm: Edit|
Well, guys, it was only a matter of time.
This was like Westinghouse not manufacturing refrigerators while refrigerators were all the rage...
With a name like Pernod, they will establish the standard for absinthe.
And, Ted, if you want to convince people of the contrary, you'll have to do better than hint that you possess some obscure knowledge....
|By Petermarc on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 04:09 pm: Edit|
there is a show on in france that deals with all the trends in the EU...apparently, moulin rouge was such a hit in germany, that 'can-can fashion'
is all the rage at parties...obviously, this would go hand-in-hand...andy could better comment on this, but i think he is trying to deal with the shock...
|By Chevalier on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 03:51 pm: Edit|
It isn't spilling the beans yet, but Pernod's German website will probably be the first site to do so. http://www.pernod.de/
Meanwhile, here's a photo of the new bottle for Pernod pastis.
|By Tabreaux on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:56 pm: Edit|
I have two comments, FWIW:
Pernod has recently changed their labeling motif, and the product appears (at first glance) to be from Pernod. It may be for export only (e.g. sold only outside of France).
Regardless of what is claimed, I can almost guarantee this product is not an accurate reproduction of the original 1805 absinthe for various reasons.
|By Chevalier on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:55 pm: Edit|
Ok, here's the website address of FIZZZ magazine (Nov. 22, 2001 issue):
The table of contents cites the following article. Unfortunately, I couldn't get access to it. One of our German friends may have to go to a newstand!
Tendenzen --- Sagenumwobene Kräuter und eine legendäre Vergangenheit machen Absinth zum gastronomischen Kultgetränk. Begleiten Sie uns auf unserer Suche nach dem Geheimnis der "grünen Fee".
(Babel Fish: Tendencies --- Sagenumwobene of herbs and a legendary past make Absinth the gastronomischen cult beverage. Accompany us on our search for the secret " become green to Fee ".) Whatever.
|By Artemis on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:47 pm: Edit|
Justin, my email address has changed several times since I took down my profile. I'll email you; I have a question for you as well.
|By Chevalier on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:33 pm: Edit|
Babel Fish says:
"1805 created Henry Louis Pernod the first Absinth Distillerie world-wide. He is thereby the inventor of the Absinth. Now the Orginal is again available. Despite his high alcohol content and Thujongehaltes he is the mildeste and best Absinth in the test (according to catering trade magazine Fizzz). many other products is more or less good copies simply only on the Absinthwelle along-swims."
Not too helpful. One of us needs to find a copy of the "catering trade magazine Fizzz."
|By Chrysippvs on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:29 pm: Edit|
That is certainly curious. Either someone is about to be taken to court over that name, or pernod is taking advantage of the trend. From what I hear Germany is a huge absinthe market.
Artemis can you e-mail me. I can't find you address. I have a question for you...
|By Artemis on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 02:27 pm: Edit|
I don't get it.
The bottle looks new.
I don't read German. Am I to understand that Pernod is back in the absinthe business?
|By Chevalier on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 01:53 pm: Edit|
W-H-A-T ??? Ted, have you gotten your hands on this? Any comments?
|By Petermarc on Tuesday, December 04, 2001 - 01:48 pm: Edit|
thanks for the tip, andy...had to share it...now, no one from pernod in france is talking about this, yet...it was hard enough to find out about oxygénée...interesting...
|By Petermarc on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 03:35 pm: Edit|
timk...maybe it's because i've have a couple of glasses of absinthe king (with herbal chunks on the bottom), russian absinthe (made from czech absinth concentrate, remixed in russia, blech!) and versinthe, but i don't understand your post directed at me at all...
|By Petermarc on Thursday, December 06, 2001 - 03:41 pm: Edit|
timk...sorry, that is the antechamber of the german absinthe standards consul,located in another country, so i cannot comment on the bottle collection...i believe the thing in the bottle was one of verlaine's siblings...
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