Deva 70% vs Mari Mayans 70%

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archive Thru March 2002: Archive thru January 2002:Deva 70% vs Mari Mayans 70%
By Malhomme on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 11:04 pm: Edit

Thirds!!!

By Artemis on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 05:39 pm: Edit

"Nouvelle Orleans is my favorite of his creations"

I second that emotion.

By Thegreenimp on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 04:38 pm: Edit

I also picked up a 1954 full sized Herbsaint bottle (The Lady I aquired it from purchased it in 1954).......The scent seemed the same as modern Herbsaint, still lingering in the empty bottle.
Jay

By Thegreenimp on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Not knowing the make up of the 120 proof version of Herbsaint, from the tiny amount that I drew off my mini, it is most assuredly different from the current version. What ever the make up of it, Ted certainly found something unique enough about the make up to create his own version, which I for one am very happy about since Nouvelle Orleans is my favorite of his creations. (They are all exquisite,...hard to choose but I like the Nouvelle best.)
I would guess that perhaps WWII rationing constraints, forced the change of formula.
Jay

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 04:25 pm: Edit

It can be confusing unless the chronology is clear.

In a nutshell, until I saw a Legendre Absinthe bottle, I was under the impression that Herbsaint was Legendre Absinthe until the ban. The bottles are similar as are the labels, and both products are 120 proof. I have an old 120 proof Herbsaint samplem and I also have a slightly later (?) sample of Herbsaint, with same original Legendre bottle and labeling, that is 100 proof.

FWIW, the two samples of old Herbsaint I have are organoleptically very similar to old absinthe, and if you ever have an opportunity to taste one, then you have a very good idea of what some of the better old absinthes tasted like. I happened across some tidbits of info about original Legendre Absinthe that I found interesting, and used them to create one Jade product.

Like modern Pernod, modern Herbsaint is a very different product. As to when the change in content occurred, I do not know.

By Artemis on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 02:57 pm: Edit

"Obviously, what Ted is producing is Absinthe, what I was interested in was that it was said to be based on Herbsaint"

I wasn't trying to stress that what Ted is producing is absinthe (which as you say is obvious), but that today's Herbsaint is NOT absinthe and doesn't taste like any absinthe I've ever tasted.

"I found this interesting because from that information, it would have meant Ted had got hold of a bottle of Herbsaint produced pre ban"

That was precisely what I had assumed; in fact, I thought Ted had said so in this forum some time ago. Apparently he didn't, and/or I assumed too much.

"However, as Ted has said, he hasnt seen a bottle of Herbsaint made pre ban."

A revelation to me. How else could he have based a modern product upon it? It never occurred to me that there was such a thing as a post-ban product called Herbsaint that was real absinthe.

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 10:46 am: Edit

It is difficult enough to find a Legendre Absinthe bottle alone, much less one with intact contents. The only information I have is written (and barely that). What I find interesting however, is the fact that the taste and contents of post-ban Herbsaint (which we do have samples of) is very similar to pre-ban absinthe, and is completely dissimilar from samples of post-ban French products I have sampled from the same period.

Just some interesting observations to throw into the 'unsolved mystery' pile.

By Timk on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 10:31 am: Edit

Obviously, what Ted is producing is Absinthe, what I was interested in was that it was said to be based on Herbsaint

"It's not clear, it's green. It's a recreation of Herbsaint (the absinthe, not the modern product)"

I found this interesting because from that information, it would have meant Ted had got hold of a bottle of Herbsaint produced pre ban, and as most of the history surrounding the Legendre-Absinthe-Herbsaint issue is unclear, at least as far as i know, this would have helped clarify it. However, as Ted has said, he hasnt seen a bottle of Herbsaint made pre ban. It seems likely to me that Herbsaint was only produced as a post ban product, maybe in its first revision it was unchanged from the pre ban product (as the Legendre blurb on the internet states), but now, it bares little resemblance. Phil, have you still got any pictures of that ottle of legendre absinthe you aquired?

This is purely of historical interest.

By Artemis on Tuesday, January 22, 2002 - 10:12 am: Edit

"I was under the impression that Herbsaint was always an absinthe substitute, the Legendre family producing a Legendre Extrait D'absinthe pre ban, and Hrebsaint post ban. Anyone like to correct me?"

I only want to point out that "Extrait D'Absinthe" IS absinthe. That's absinthe. That's what absinthe was called, extract of wormwood. That's why it was not a liqueur, but a medicine. Source: Delayhaye's "Histoire". I don't anything about the history of Herbsaint other than what's on the Legendre website, but I know for sure that modern Herbsaint is IMO barely drinkable and NOTHING like Ted's Nouvelle or any other quality absinthe, home made or otherwise, that accurately follows a historical protocol for absinthe.

By Tabreaux on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 12:56 pm: Edit

As far as I know, absinthe was imported here for quite some time, and I have seen only a couple of bottles marked 'Legendre Absinthe'. What I've done is base one of Jade's products from some early specifics of the Legendre efforts. The result was distinctive enough such that I decided to commercialize it with a 'twist'. This is clearly spelled out in the product description (not yet visible), so there is no use splitting hairs on this one.

Regardless, the early Herbsaint bottles I have and have seen are almost certainly post ban. FWIW, they are markedly different in content than modern pastis, or modern Herbsaint for that matter, having far more in common with the flavor and texture of old fine absinthes, and are 120 proof to boot.

By Timk on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 11:43 am: Edit

Of course this is purely to establish the history of Legendre absinthe and herbsaint, not to malign the quality of your reproduction. Perhaps the pre reformulation to 100 proof version was absinthe in the traditional sense. The web page suggests that the current version is just Legendre absinthe under anotrher name, unlikely.

By Timk on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 11:40 am: Edit

"What made you think Herbsaint (pre ban) was not a bona fide absinthe?"

I had the impression that the legendre family started producing Herbsaint post ban, and pre ban, they imported absinthe labelled as Legendre extrait d'absinthe. Phil - dont you have an empty bottle of legendre absinthe - this was discussed some time ago.

Ted - do you have pictures of the bottle of Herbsaint you used to make the reproduction from, or can youi tell us anything about it?


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Although: (this is from the modern company)

"Formerly Sold Under the Name of
LEGENDRE ABSINTHE

"In many states it is unlawful to use the name Absinthe - in labeling any product because the word Absinthe invariably calls to mind a poisonous wormwood beverage. The Legendre liqueur does not contain one drop of wormwood, but as we are enjoying a nation-wide distribution and in order to have our product on sale everywhere, we have decided to call it Herbsaint. There is positively no change of formula. The new drink Herbsaint is exactly the same as the drink formerly sold under the name of Legendre Absinthe. The difference is in name only. No other drink can bear the name Herbsaint. Legendre Herbsaint is the only drink of its kind in the world, It has all the virtues of absinthe but none of its sins. Made from a secret French formula, it is the first genuine, non-synthetic, non-poisonous drink of its kind, made in the United States.""

Year History
1896 The Sazerac business is enlarged to include 12 & 13 Royal Street
The "other" (See Micas 1882) Peychaud business passes to Baumann & Jung

1916 J. Marion Legendre & Reginald Parker attend Intelligence school Le Harve, France
Legendre is sent to St. Nazaire and Parker to Marseille after graduation
Parker stays with a family in Marseille who made "pastis"

1918 Parker returns with the recipe and ingredients to make pastis / absinthe

1919 The Sazerac Coffee House closes and manufacture of Peychaud's bitters ceases due to prohibition
Ownership of the company passed to Christopher O'Reilly from William McQuoid
The Thomas Handy Company becomes organized as The Sazerac Company by Christopher O'Reilly
During prohibition Sazerac survives as "grocers and delicatessers"
Business expands to include 116 - 118 - 120 Royal Street
Parker and Legendre make the pastis / absinthe in their basement during prohibition
Joseph A. & J. Marion Legendre has the largest permit to buy and sell "prescription whiskey" in the South

1926 Joseph A. Legendre dies

1933 Sazerac Company moves to "spacious quarters" at 722 Gravier Street
Sazerac starts making Peychaud bitters again
Sazerac makes and markets the "bottled" Sazerac Cocktail
J. Marion Legendre begins making Herbsaint after prohibition is repealed in the attic of his home in New Orleans on Jefferson and Daneel
Herbsaint (erb-sant) is named for New Orleans word for wormwood - Herbe Sainte

1934 J. Marion Legendre moves his business to the Legendre building at 126 Baronne Street

1935 J. Marion Legendre moves his business to 213 South Peters Street; Gus Blancard is hired as sales manager
Herbsaint becomes popular in San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles and New Orleans

1940 The Sazerac Company acquires the J. M. Legendre Co. and the rights to Herbsaint, America's original Absinthe
Sazerac relocates to the premises of J.M. Legendre Co. on South Peters
The Official Sazerac Cocktail recipe is modified to use Herbsaint as the absinthe

By Thegreenimp on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 09:22 am: Edit

I believe that they produced after the ban, I have a 120 proof mini, with a 1934 tax stamp.
It looks like they ignored the ban, post prohibiton, perhaps they were not aware, or the ban was not considered enforceable.
At some point they switched to the lower proof and likely changed the formula, perhaps WWII might be be a likely changing point, with wartime rationing.
Anybody know otherwise?
Jay

By Petermarc on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 06:30 am: Edit

not just you...

By Wolfgang on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 06:26 am: Edit

Is it just me or the modern Herbsainte is really shitty ? I guess they followed the same path as Pernod, going from god's nectar to devil's piss...

By Don_Walsh on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 05:04 am: Edit

The pre-ban Herbsaint was a genuine absinthe and a quite good one at that. Ted does not replicate bad absinthes, or absinthe substitutes. And he ALWAYS works from the original.

What made you think Herbsaint (pre ban) was not a bona fide absinthe?

By Timk on Monday, January 21, 2002 - 03:21 am: Edit

"It's a recreation of Herbsaint (the absinthe, not the modern product)"

I was under the impression that Herbsaint was always an absinthe substitute, the Legendre family producing a Legendre Extrait D'absinthe pre ban, and Hrebsaint post ban. Anyone like to correct me?

By Artemis on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 04:02 pm: Edit

"Sorry about that Artemis, it was late and I was drinking. You of all people should know *I* know the difference."

Nothing to be sorry about - I know you know the difference. I'm sure we tasted Nouvelle together and discussed it in person, though I can't remember what we said. My post was rather directed at those who have not tasted Nouvelle, so they wouldn't get the wrong idea (i.e., that it's a blanche). I was also drinking, and a little more terse than polite, I guess. Sorry.

By Brett on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 09:49 am: Edit

My statement wasn't really a complaint about SC's prices; its more a complaint about the (really) low value of the Canadian dollar. Sure, its great and all -attracts tourists and foreign investment, but it makes purchasing anything outside of the country from somewhere like the US, Europe or the UK really difficult. And it certainly didn't help that the Euro's value was pushed up by people selling it on such places as Ebay.

Sorry, another correction that $100 difference for a third bottle (~$90 actually) is also in Canadian funds. And yes, it is mostly shipping -I think about 60-75% of that would be shipping.

By Lordhobgoblin on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 07:56 am: Edit

I think that in the medium term the Euro is likely to strengthen and the Pound and Dollar values will drop against the Euro.

Anyway who knows? If we knew this we'd all be billionaires.

Hobgoblin

By Heiko on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 07:04 am: Edit

ad Miller:

having just read the tropic of capricorn, I must say I also loved it - except for some of his metaphysical babbling towards the end. It read like he had drunk five liters of wine before and/or sniffed some coke and then started writing and writing without end, pages and pages and pages of blablablablabla without leaving the reader a second to think about it. Just like some drunk in the morning hours of a party who keeps explaining you the ways of the world without giving you a chance to leave...

By Heiko on Sunday, January 20, 2002 - 06:58 am: Edit

"for chrissakes, when will the Euro drop/dollar go up?"

This has constantly been the case for years now!
I hope it will go up some time again. You can't complain about the SC prices, they're really low.

If it's almost 100 USD for a third bottle, almost all of it must be for shipping.
When ordering 5 bottles from SC in Germany, the shipping cost is about 8 Euro per bottle.

By Malhomme on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Sorry about that Artemis, it was late and I was drinking. You of all people should know *I* know the difference.

malhomme

By Brett on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Sorry, I should have specified -$250 Canadian (I've seen bottles for between $110-$180 American, which works out to roughly 250). My fault.

By Artemis on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 09:19 pm: Edit

There's a post below that seems to imply Ted's Nouvelle Orleans is a "La Bleu", which it isn't. It's not clear, it's green. It's a recreation of Herbsaint (the absinthe, not the modern product) and it kicks the hell out of any "La Bleu" I've ever tasted.

ALL Spanish "absinthe" is crap except Segarra. And even that isn't anything special. The ONLY reason to buy it is if you can't get real absinthe. Sorry, but that's the fact.

By Don_Walsh on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 05:32 pm: Edit

La Bleu is not $250 a bottle. You can get it for $80 to $110 a bottle incl shipping but you will have to buy multiple bottles, and I recommend you stay away from Wolvie till he starts actually delivering to people (as opposed to a single person.)

Are you on our mailing list for updates about Jade? If so then you will be one of the first to know when it is released.

By Brett on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 10:11 am: Edit

I'd love to try Jade and probably will once it is released. I'd also love to try La Bleue, but don't really feel justified in spending nearly $250 (not including shipping) on a single bottle. Its like those $2400 Cognacs at the liquor store; sure, they're probably great, but I don't think I could bring myself to drink it if I ever bought on.

Perhaps I'll give NS70 a try.

Brett.

By Artist on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 02:16 am: Edit

This is beginning to sound a little like a troll thread...

By Giovannigray on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 12:30 am: Edit

Brett,

If you're going to order one of the Spanish, I'd also recommend NS70 (creamy louche, delicious, and knockout "secondary effects") and Deva50 (very refreshing; simple but very pleasant and good value).

Betty's #1 is my favorite of the #1 and #3 La Bleue's. I've not tried #2; it hasn't been available since I joined mondo absinthe.

By Crosby on Saturday, January 19, 2002 - 12:13 am: Edit

I've never tried Betty's #2, only her #3. I don't think the #2 has been available the times I've ordered from her. Her prices may be high but the quality is consistent and the shipping is reliable.
Henry had a gift for evoking some powerful images with his writing. People seem to either love him or hate him without much middle ground.

By Malhomme on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:47 pm: Edit

Not all La Bleues are created equal, as you probably already know! I'm most fond of Betty's LB #2 (and Ted's Nouvelle Orleans), but the #2 is more unavailable than Jade. I use DEVA for mixing the occasional Maiden's Blush and Sazerac. I'm enjoying a Sazerac now.

I love Henry. I can't explain it, but I get so emotional sometimes when I think of him that I cry. Silly, but true.

By Crosby on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Malhomme,

That quote has stuck with me since I first read it. I should probably identify it properly in my profile.
Though I haven't had the pleasure of trying Jade, I agree about the La Bleue. It will be more affordable if wolfie turns out to be a legitimate source.

Harry

By Crosby on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:15 pm: Edit

I've only recently tried mixing Deva and Segarra (thanks Wolfgang). It is a very pleasant combination. For drinking unmixed I feel NS 70 is more complex than Deva and also more complex than NS 55.

By Malhomme on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:10 pm: Edit

Crosby,
Nice Miller quote!!!

Brett, I need to add that once you try Jade or La Bleue you'll throw rawks at the Spanish.

By Malhomme on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 11:00 pm: Edit

On a budget I'd go for the regular Deva (otherwise you're just paying for the extra grain alcohol) and use it for mixing. Segarra is the better of the Spanish. The difference between NS and Deva is not that great-- they're both typically Spanish. Hi-ho.

By Crosby on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 10:52 pm: Edit

NS 70 would be my choice. In other words, neither.

By Brett on Friday, January 18, 2002 - 10:38 pm: Edit

Within the next few weeks, I'll be placing an order with SC. I'm planning on Segarra, but am having trouble deciding whether to go with Deva 70 or MM 70. I have MM 70 right now and really enjoy it, but I also wish to try new things. I'd go for all three, but it it nearly $100 for a third bottle ($160 Canadian for two versus $250 for three -for chrissakes, when will the Euro drop/dollar go up?). So which should I go with?

Thanks!

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