Would have made a Great b-day present....

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archive Thru March 2002: Archive thru March 2002:Would have made a Great b-day present....
By Mr_Rabid on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 12:14 pm: Edit

I'd like to see your papers.

The rise of rationalism, and the new god Science did much to contribute to the current state, but the secrecy and deliberate obfuscations of the practitioners of many traditions didn't hinder it the least.

By Etienne on Friday, March 08, 2002 - 04:41 am: Edit

Justin;

Thanks for the information. For some reason I had it in mind that you had a 16th. cent. printing of a work that was written much earlier.

You're absolutely right about the language. By that time you're talking about Latins, in the plural, not a single coherent language. In my class we had a great time with the way the authors "jury-rigged" their writing, when they ran into something that they didn't know how to say in the classical manner. Plus, technical jargon is tough any time.

BTW... A package arrived today, I'll write you later.

By Mr_Carfax on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Justin

if you ever find yourself downunder, drop in for an absinthe or seven- I think we would have a lot to talk about.

Would love to see the papers you've written.

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 09:09 pm: Edit

I really find it a shame that occult literature and hermetic philosophy isn't considered a viable aspect of western culture. There is a _strong_ tradition of occult and hermetic philosophical system (gnostic, neo-platonic, Hermetic, Alchemic, theosophic, Kabbalah, etc...) that really should be investigated.

Certainly these are just words, but I have done all of most major papers in undergrad so far dealing with this problem and it possible methods of solution. If anyone wants to look at these papers let me know. I am building a personal school "about me" page on the Millsaps college server.

Agrippa, Dee, Bruno, Hermes Tres, Crowley, Blavatsky, Trithemius, and like men need to be studied just as one would study Hegel to Schliermacher, to Fuerbach, to Tillich. I certainly intend to make this case during my undergrad years, and if I end up in Grad school on these issues, then I will push it to the logical conclusion. History cannot forget this tradition, hence me spending $300+ dollars on this book, it is a part of western culture and it must be studied academically to have an honest worldview.

- J

By Elbongo on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 09:02 pm: Edit

If anyone needs help with Pig Latin, I have been a qualified translator since I was about 6 years old.

By Destiny on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 08:37 pm: Edit

Even though I now feel like the most uneducated person on Earth, I am really enjoying this thread. The breadth of knowledge on this forum just amazes me!

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Here is the bibliography and some dates:

De occulta philosophia libri tres (1531)
De Nobilitate et præcellentia (1509)(pub. (1532)
De originali peccato, On Geomancy (1516-1517)
De incertitudine et vanitate scientiarum (1530)

There are other works, some on the plague, against some priests, et al. As far as I know, and just from what I have discerned (ie not learned in any class) there are 3 problems with the Latin of the Middle Ages.

1. It is a vernacular language by now, spoken in various dialects, all around Europe. The spoken latin is thus forced to fit the mold of their first language. Thus you don't have classical latin, you have Germanic, Frankish, Anglicised, etc Latin. You will notice that an author will use first language constructions, and Agrippa will use massive sentences totally over using dependant clauses, which is a caler germanism (ever read Kant or Hegel?). They will also make up words when they don't know the Latin offhand, this makes things interesting (dog = dogus, rather than canis)

2. The language is very particular. In the same way it is hard to read a modern text of Thujone in a scientific journal without a good deal of knowledge of chemistry, the same it is difficult to read a text of occultism without knowing the language (both languages in this case, the occult language, and the latin language).

3. Depending on the author the latin may be used very strangly or forcibly. When writting occult literature, one notices the constant use of bot the passive and subjuntive voice (which is difficult enough in classical Latin, and in vernacular it is moreso). This rapid changing in voice, makes it very difficult to render sentences in English. It is like reading prose poetry in other words, but writen in a very techincal and stylized language.

These three problems are the ones I run into constantly. I haven't had a class in Late Latin writing so I am sure these matters of much more complex, but I am not a classics major and there are no Midieval Latin Classes at my school.

Hope this clears things a bit.

- J

By Etienne on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Justin;

Just when did Agrippa write these works. I notice you mention his Latin is difficult... do you think it's a question of his period?

When I was in school we did some work on several very late classical and early medieval authors. The language had changed so much from what we had learned, partly from the breakdown of the educational system, that it gave everyone fits.

By Chevalier on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 12:01 pm: Edit

I'm excited for you! It's great to hear about chaps like Agrippa being rescued from the dustbin of (popular) history. One of my favorite historians is Jacques Barzun ("From Dawn to Decadence", etc.) because he has a field day shedding light on these characters.

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 11:36 am: Edit

This one certainly isn't, although it does give that impression. Agrippa, despite his reputation, was a very orthodox thinker and was a faithful Christian, even when the church burned his books and put out 3 Ecclesia Millitans Warrantem (Inquisitional warrants for arrest). He only wrote 5 major works, only 2 of which are of occult subject matter. Even these two are pretty tame when you read them, they are not like other texts calling for a person to copulate with the dead to properly conjoin your spirit with the world beyond for successful necromancy.

I enjoy agrippa, although I find his Latin very difficult, and at times simply strained and obtuse. His Libri Tres are great (the spurious 4 book is somewhat interesting, but almost certainly not by Agrippa). Make sure if you want to read his occult works that your edition is heavily footnoted. Sadly there has not been a translation of the work since the James Freake (ironic huh?) edition in 1651. The llewellyn, a publishing company I have grown to loathe, edition is the best out there.

This particular text (On the vanity of Arts and Science) has not been printed in a few hundred years to my knowledge in any real numbers. I am looking at the Latin now and it is like a 10 year old try to read Chaucer in Middle English, not fun.

At any rate, a neat find, and if I can get it translated one day, maybe I will seek publication. But those days are somewhere between here and the hereafter.

- J

By Chevalier on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 11:10 am: Edit

I'm asking this seriously: were books like Agrippa's ever bound in human skin?

By Admin on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 11:00 am: Edit

Ooooh, thanks Justin.

I have a passion for books. But only have a few of the very old variety.

I share your enthusiasm. Yummmmmm.

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, March 07, 2002 - 10:08 am: Edit

Just got the book in today and I am more than happy with it. Apparently the seller didn't look at the book very well, and to my grand happiness the book contains not only Agrippa's work on the Vanity of Art and Science but also his less rare, but very interesting, book on proto-feminism (1529, around a century after Pisan wrote the City of Ladies) in which we declares the "nobilite" of the female sex, in both equality of body and soul. I am very happy, a dual-edition like this is worth more than double what I paid for it (£265).

This isn't an absinthe review but anyone looking for rare books check out:

www.collectablebooks.co.uk

Service was great (the owner called me on his nickel (shilling, or whatever) at 11 pm his time to make the sale. Great service and great item.

Finally, nearly a month later, having an agrippalicious spring break.

- J

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:40 pm: Edit

I am not sure, from what I can gather this edition is from 1622 and is from "E Zetzner" in Strasbourg. This is the Latin edition and so the more popular one. I tried to find an english translation, but this Latin one is cheaper and I would rather render my on translation.

-J

By Etienne on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Who's the printer?

By Chrysippvs on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 08:30 am: Edit

After some searching and wrangling rare book archives I have got the better end of the stick!

Here it is Agrippa's long lost and very thought provoking "De incertitvdine et vanitate scientiarum declamatio inuectiua, ex postrema Authoris recognitione..." The one that I found is not as great looking as the one from butterfields but it was lots cheaper (1/3 the price for an earlier printing. For those bibliophiles out there like myself you will enjoy this pics:

frontplate
spread
binding

Now, finally, having an agrippalicious day

- J

By Rimbaud on Monday, February 11, 2002 - 10:42 pm: Edit

Nice.

By Pan on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 01:22 pm: Edit

Wow.

That's something special, alright . . .

-Dev

By Chrysippvs on Sunday, February 10, 2002 - 01:17 pm: Edit

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/aw-cgi/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=601161276&r=0&t=0

Once the bidding passed the 500.00 mark I just starting weeping...


having a agrippaless b-day

- J

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