The Definitive History Of Absinthe

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archive Thru March 2002: Archive thru February 2002:The Definitive History Of Absinthe
By Timk on Wednesday, February 27, 2002 - 12:09 am: Edit

lol

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 03:21 pm: Edit

a little knowledge, is a dangerous thing...

By Timk on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 01:02 pm: Edit

no, were not interested in sharing, fuck off

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:48 pm: Edit

away we go...

By Admin on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:46 pm: Edit

I care ... I would be interested in posting a definative chronology to Fée Verte if'n ya'll are interested in sharing.

By Wolfgang on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:39 am: Edit

"Edouard Pernod allie Petipierre "

I never heard this word before. If someone really want to know, I can ask someone who's doing genealogy research...

By Zman7 on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:09 am: Edit

I,for one, find it interesting and worth knowing from a historical perspective. Any efforts on your part in this endeavor would be greatly appreciated.

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 08:54 am: Edit

noted...

By Timk on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 08:48 am: Edit

"how many people out there other than you care? (no offense, just seeing if alot of work should go into this)"

well, for anyone interested in the history of absinthe, its an important issue to know what went on with the main house, granted i doubt that there are that many on the forum that wfind this interesting, but i am sure there are a few at least. Anyway, its purely out of historical interest.

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 08:37 am: Edit

there is some sort of distillery register floating around out there that might be more precise...will look into it as this is tougher than it seems...the question is; how many people out there other than you care? (no offense, just seeing if alot of work should go into this)

By Timk on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:55 am: Edit

hmm, can anyone easily ask MCD?

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:21 am: Edit

maybe this is also dialect; when i showed my french wife the translation of 'allié', she said she had no knowledge of the meaning as refering to a relationship by marriage...

By Timk on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:54 am: Edit

that would do it - cheers

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:39 am: Edit

I didn't interpret. I asked a francophone Swiss houseguest from Lausanne.

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 06:06 am: Edit

where's wolfgang??!

By Timk on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:57 am: Edit

i think Dons interpretation is the correct one in this case

however:

Louis Pernod, ne de son marriage avec la fille du major Dubied.
Louis Pernod, allie Liermann, entre dans la maison de Pontarlier que son pere, Henri
Louis Pernod, dirige.


That would make Liermann the maiden name of Dubied's daughter, surely it would have been Dubied or am I missing something further?

By Petermarc on Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:43 am: Edit

or, it could mean the association and joining of two businesses, hence, the confusion remains...

By Don_Walsh on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 09:16 pm: Edit

"allie" is an archair signifier of maternal family name. Serves same purpose as hyphen.

Edouard Pernod-Petiepierre
Edouard Pernod allie Petiepierre

both mean that Petiepierre was the mother's maiden name.

Useful in family tree for distinguisihing between half brothers, half siblings.

I guess this was already clear, but some posters seemed a little vague.

It does not refer to the WIFE's family name but the mother's.

By Petermarc on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 04:06 pm: Edit

nice job

By Timk on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 03:11 pm: Edit

thats the best I can do

By Timk on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 03:09 pm: Edit

1797 - Henri-Louis Pernod, gendre du major Dubied, monte sa premiere fabrique
d'absinthe a Couvet (suisse) sous le nom 'Dubied Pere et Fils'.

1797 - Henri-Louis Pernod, son-in-law of major Dubied set up
his first absinthe distillery in Couvet (Switzerland) under the name 'Dubied Pere et
Fils'.


1805 - Transfert de la fabrique a Pontarlier, sous la raison sociale 'Maison Pernod
Fils'.


1805 - Transfer of the distillery to Pontarlier under the
corporate name 'Maison Pernod Fils'.




Henri-Louis Pernod a deux fils:

Henri-Louis Pernod had two sons:




Edouard Pernod issu d'un premier marriage.
Edouard Pernod resulting from a former marriage.


1827 - Edouard Pernod allie Petipierre cree une fabrique d'absinthe a Couvet sous la
raison sociale 'Edouard Pernod'.

1827 - Edouard Pernod allie Petipierre created an absinthe
manufacturer in Couvet under the corporate name 'Edouard Pernod'.


1850 - Il fonde une succursale a Lunel (Herault).

1850 - He founded a branch in Lunel (Herault).

1880 - Il cede la maison de Couvet a son fils aine Edouard Pernod allie Reiss.
  Son gendre Charles Gempp prend la suite de la succursale de Lunel.

1880 - He left the house of Couvet to his eldest son Edouard
Pernod allie Reiss. His son in law Charles Gempp takes on the branch at Lunel.


1897 - Edouard Pernod-Reiss (+1901) cree une succursale a Pontarlier.  La meme
anee, il transforme son double etablissement de Couvet et de Pontarlier en societe anonyme
des etablissments Edouard Pernod.

1897 - Edouard Pernod-Reiss (+1901) created a branch
in Pontarlier.  The same year, he turns the two establishments of Couvet and of
Pontarlier into the limited company of 'Etablissments Edouard Pernod'.




Louis Pernod, ne de son marriage avec la fille du major Dubied.
Louis pernod, born of his marriage with the daughter of major
Dubied.



Louis Pernod, allie Liermann, entre dans la maison de Pontarlier que son pere, Henri
Louis Pernod, dirige.

Louis Pernod, allie Liermann, enters the house of Pontarlier
which his father, Henri Louis Pernod, managed.


1851 - Mort de Henri-Lousi Pernod.  Sa veuve, Mme H.L. Pernod-Dubied continue
l'exploitation avec son fils Louis Pernod-Liermann, puis a la mort de celui-ci, avec ses
deux petits-fils Louis et Fritz Pernod, tous deux allies Keppler.

1851 - Death of Henri-Louis Pernod. His widow, Mme H.L.
Pernod-Dubied continues the running with her son Lousi Pernod-Liermann, then at the death
of the latter, with her two grandsons Louis and Fritz Pernod, both allies Keppler.


1869 - Mort de Mme H.L. Pernod-Dubied.  Les petits-fils Louis-Pernod-Keppler et
Fritz Pernod-Keppler deviennent proprietaires de l'affaire.

1869 - Death of Mme H.L. Pernod-Dubied.  The grandsons
Louis-Pernod-Keppler and Fritz Pernod-Keppler become owners of the business.


1880 - Mor de Fritz Pernod.

1880 - Death of Fritz Pernod.

1888 - Louis Pernod vend l'affaire a MM Veil-Picard, gerants de la societe Veil-Picard
et Cie, banquiers a Besancon.  L'affaire conserve son nom commercial 'Pernod Fils'

1888 - Louis Pernod sells the business to Mr and Mrs.
Veil-Picard, managers of the company Veil-Picard et Cie, Bankers of Bescanon. The business
keeps its commercial name of 'Pernod Fils'


1901 - Incendie de l'usine (on decouvre ainsi que la Loue est une resurgence du Doubs).

1901 - Fire at the factory (it is found that the Loue is a
resurgance of the Doubs).


1915 - Interdiction de l'absinthe.

1915 - Prohibition of absinthe.

1917 - Liquidation de la societe Veil-Picard.  L'usine de Pontarlier sera plus
tard vendue a Nestle.

1917 - Liquidation of the company Veil-Picard.  The factory
at Pontarlier is later sold to Nestle.


1926 - Veil-Picard apporte la marque 'Pernod Fils' a la societe Hemard, installee a
Montreuil (Seine).  La maison Hermard cree en 1871, obtint une medaille d'argent a
l'exposition universelle se Paris en 1889 pour sa 'Pale Absinthe'.

1926 - Veil-Picard brings the brand 'Pernod Fils' to the company
Hemard, set up in Montreuil (Seine). La Maison Hermard was created in 1871, and obtained a
monetary prize at the world fair in paris for its 'Pale absinthe'.


1928 - Fusion avec les 'Etablissements Pernod Pere et Fils' d'Avignon pour former les
'Etablissements Pernod'.

1928 - Merger with the 'Etablissements Pernod Pere et Fils'
d'Avignon to form the 'Etablissements Pernod'

By Timk on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 02:06 pm: Edit

that was what I read, but then it doesnt make sense -

1827 - Edouard Pernod allie Petipierre cree une fabrique d'absinthe a Couvet sous la raison sociale 'Edouard Pernod'.

1880 - Il cede la maison de Couvet a son fils aine Edouard Pernod allie Reiss. Son gendre Charles Gempp prend la suite de la succursale de Lunel.

im sure it must be some sort of familly related thing in this sense, but how would it translate is another question

By Petermarc on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 01:58 pm: Edit

my oxford french dictionary says 'allié' is 'relative
by marriage' but my french wife scoffs -never that! it means 'joins or unites' just like 'ally'
in english....

By Timk on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 11:55 am: Edit

a small question, could someone translate :

Edouard Pernod allie Petipierre
Edouard Pernod allie Reiss

does this designate a parent, lol, my French is quite bad, unfortunately I only took it to GCSE level, and hardly used it since so it has deteriorated, and trying to re-learn it is proving a trifle difficile : - )

By Petermarc on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 10:30 am: Edit

actually avignon (home of jules pernod) is around 300 miles from pontarlier, which doesn't make it 'another local manufacturer'...there were several lawsuits involving the pernod name, just between the pernod's (which probably didn't help with people wanting to ban absinthe, as i'm sure local courts were tired of the bickering)...both of these documents state that according to a decree passed, if someone orders 'un pernod' they can be legally served an edouard pernod (decree of 1912), or a jules pernod(decree of 1911)...i predict history will repeat itself in some way...
ed
jules

By Wolfgang on Monday, February 25, 2002 - 06:23 am: Edit

From the buying guide in the historical brand section :


Quote:


By the time of the 1915 ban, Edouard had merged with Pernod Fils, and due to a later lawsuit, was forced to merge with Jules Pernod, another local manufacturer, which is what comprises what we know of as Pernod today.




According to the previously posted time line, Jules Pernod merged only after the ban in 1928 ... ???

By Timk on Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 10:37 am: Edit

Thanks very much!

By Petermarc on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 03:55 pm: Edit

time1
time2
time3
time4

By Timk on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 05:39 am: Edit

Oxygenee - is there anything absinthe related that you dont have?

By Petermarc on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 05:35 am: Edit

it is from the 'histoire de la fée verte'...i will post it tonight, if i can...

By Wolfgang on Friday, February 22, 2002 - 05:29 am: Edit

I would like to have this time/family line too. Maybe you can just post it here ?

I agree with Timk that this is confusing.

By Oxygenee on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Dubied started in 1798, not '97. The successor firm was Fritz Duval.
Duval

By Timk on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 05:30 pm: Edit

please : - )

By Petermarc on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 04:07 pm: Edit

i have an historical time/family line in french, if you want it, let me know...

By Timk on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:28 pm: Edit

yes, that Pernod catalogue, Artemis' translation of it is very interesting, but it fails to mention Major Dubied, or any of the rest of the Pernod or Dubied family (presumably for commercial reasons), and reiterates the standard history replacing most of it, by just saying that HLP acquired the recipe for commercial exploitation.

By Petermarc on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:21 pm: Edit

you've probably seen this, but i'll put it in again...there is not a great deal that has been translated to english, yet...
http://www.frenchmanltd.com/absinthe/0.htm

By Timk on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 03:14 pm: Edit

how helpful :P
seriously, out of interest,

Dr. Ordinaire is said to have created absinthe, at his death, the recipe is said to have passed to the Henriod sisters, Major Dubied then purchased it in 1797.

*however aparently Dr. Ordinaire didnt die untill after 1897, so is this all a Myth - what actually happened?

Major Dubied set up in Couvet with Henri-Louis in 1787 or 1797? - in 1805, Henri Louis moved production to Pontarlier Major Dubied stayed?

Louis Pernod And Fritz Pernod (Died March 17 1880) The Son and Brother? Of Henri-Louis Pernod take over Pernod Fils?

Fritz Duval (A cousin of Major Dubied?) Takes over the Dubied Pere Et Fils Business?

Edouard Pernod starts up - was hi HLP's Son? - when did they start up?

HLP dies in 1850?


Miscelaneous:
*Charles Gempp was Edouard Pernod's son-in-law, son elder of the first wedding of Henri-Louis (Founding Father of Pernod Fils).

*Dr. Ordinaire passed away in 1821 and the Henriot sisters had already given their absinthe formula to Major Dubied in 1787.

*Absinthe was first distilled on any large scale at Courvet, a little city of Switzerland lying cross the French frontier a few miles beyond Pontarlier, France. After having passed through various hands the distillery was purchased by the ancestor of the principal establishment of Pontarlier, to which place the industry was transferred near the close of the nineteenth century

*Pernod had two sons, the eldest Edouard remained in Couvet and transferred the company to his own name in 1827. His son, Edouard, started his own company in 1897. - 1897 seems far too late for Edouard Pernod.

*1878 8 million liters of Absinthe imported in the United States.

*En revanche, la recette traditionnelle de cette eau-de-vie est entièrement d'origine suisse. La première distillerie industrielle a été fondée en 1797-98 à Couvet (Val-de-Travers, canton de Neuchâtel) par Daniel-Henri Dubied-Duval (1758-1841) et son gendre, Henri-Louis Pernod-Dubied (1776-1851).

By Petermarc on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:53 pm: Edit

elves in a tree...

By Timk on Thursday, February 21, 2002 - 02:51 pm: Edit

Can anyone give a definitive history of absinthe, and the creation of Pernod Fils?
I have read a lot about Dr. Ordinaire, the Henriod sisters, and Major Dubied but the standard gumph doesnt seem to tally, as most of my information comes from the internet, has anyone got a definitive account?

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