Archive through March 13, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archive Thru March 2002: BETINA ELIXIRS ANNOUNCEMENT...NEW PERNOD ABSINTHE:Archive through March 13, 2002
By Arj on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 08:57 am: Edit

Lars, That's one polite way of telling people to shut up. I'd rather see people say their piece. The gripes are valid, and I don't think anyone engaged in this thread is such a fragile flower that they can't take it. There's a great candy thread going on if this one is too rough for you.

By Larsbogart on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 08:34 am: Edit

Anyone thinkng of posting here?
Please go to "church".
larsbogart

By Chevalier on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 07:20 am: Edit

Don wrote:

"As to Frank Lloyd Wright, well, he got shot to death ... ."

Don, were you thinking of Stanford White, of McKim, Mead & White? That's the only famous American architect I know of who was shot to death.

By Timk on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 06:25 am: Edit

This is not the point, Dons shit attitude is the point, what makes him think he should rule the roost, what gives him the right to tell people not to discuss something on the forum because it bores him, which i think is all it really boils down to. He attacks people with no provocation, he thinks he alone should determine the acceptable course of discussion and the topics for it, and if you dissagree with him, then all you get are poor attempts at scathing remarks. This is an open and mainly unmoderated forum, if you want to have input then its a good idea not to make yourself out to be some sort of wanker who doesnt know how to conduct himself. Fair enough if you have something useful to say, but if all you can do is personally insult people then maybe you should just fuck off.

By Oxygenee on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 05:17 am: Edit

Let me just second Peter's post and come out in support of Don, who may have overreacted in responding (I'm afraid as usual), but who is nonetheless correct (I'm afraid as usual).

I recently had the opportunity to taste the new Pernod 68, and in colour, aroma and taste, it is entirely dissimilar to vintage Pernod Fils, to Pernod Tarragona, and to the other vintage absinthes I've tasted. The differences are so obvious and so marked, that this isn't a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact. It tastes likes a rejected batch of La Fee, which is not high praise. As Peter said, we know that it is, at least in certain critical aspects, not made according to what all authorities agree where the original Pernod production protocols. Its therefore unsuprising that it tastes different.

Its also a fact that the Pernod-Ricard company is not a continuation of the original Pernod Fils company. To simplify: the successful pastis-making Ricard company, bought certain assets and trademarks of the defunct Pernod company, primarily in order to increase its market share in the pastis sector. It also later bought other older manufacturers such as Cusenier. The company subsequently expanded into numerous other areas of liquor production. Its relationship to the original Pernod Fils company is that it owns the trademarks - nothing more. I've never seen a shred of evidence to suggest any other scenario,

Ordinaire is also wrong in saying that old absinthe bottles are necessarily oxidised, and thus inaccurate or even worthless in conveying to us today what the original drink tasted like. Some may be, but well stored bottles are not oxidised at all. Unlike wine, spirits hardly age AT ALL if stored in tightly sealed glass bottles and protected from the light (Storage in wooden barrels of course is an entirely different matter - here the spirit reacts both with oxygen and with the wood itself.) The changes that do occur in glass however are extremely minor and not fully understood, but are more likely to involve polymerisation, hydrolosis and esterification than simple oxidation. Its quite impossible to tell, tasting blind, whether a perfectly stored bottle of brandy or whisky has stood 20 years or 120 years in bottle. Bottles of perfectly stored century-old cognac, armagnac or whisky, taste the same as the equivalent quality product made a decade or two ago (this is both my own opinion and the opinion of every published authority I know.) There's absolutely no scientific, empirical or anecdotal evidence to suggest that absinthe should be any different. In fact, due to its exceptionally high alcohol content, the chances are that any changes are infinitisimally small. Cellar-stored bottles that have been light-shielded often even retain most of their original green chlorophylic colouring.

So Ted's research methodology is entirely valid: if Jade tastes like vintage absinthe NOW, it tastes like vintage absinthe THEN.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 05:05 am: Edit

OK, let's all take a deep breath.

I remember how Head defined my fights with Don:

"it's like a tennis match in Hell"

We must look like the Three Stooges...

Peace, Don and Ted, let's not fight anymore.

By Timk on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 03:27 am: Edit

Look guys, dont you all realise that it is up to Don to decide what is acceptable to discuss on this forum, he decides what we can say and do, and if you dont like it, hell just make some B.S. up, try to discredit you, and if you really piss him off, hell publically post private information on you to force you to leave the forum for fear of your job.

Thats the guy we all know, love, respect and put up with?

Well fuck that!

By Petermarc on Wednesday, March 13, 2002 - 03:18 am: Edit

let's try an analogy:
coca-cola...coke (in the usa) does not taste the same as it did even 25 years ago...in fact, it tastes more 'original'(i.e. pre-1970's) outside of the usa...why?
because coke made in the usa today uses corn syrup as a sweetener and other countries still use only sugar...the taste is different, but coke claims it is the 'original formula'...it is not, nor could it ever taste like the 'original formula' since that was forever altered in 1906(?) or earlier, when they changed the way they used coca leaves...if this great beverage giant, which never closed its doors in well over 100 years, which most definitely has all of its records thoughout its history, cannot produce a product that remains the same, even while all this time producing the same product, how can we expect pernod-ricard to recreate an absinthe that 'they' (and i use that term loosely)
stopped making in france over 85 years ago? pernod 68° is artifically colored...just that makes it different than the original, and since the coloring step produces part of the flavor, cannot possibly be the same as the original...it would have been more prudent, had pernod-ricard wished to create a reproduction of their (and i use that term loosely) old absinthe, if they would have made a blanche (which existed, but was not very common) it concludes that pernod-ricard are not making absinthe like pernod fils, since it is not profitable enough, and through my short discussions with someone at pernod-cusenier (which, in fact, is the branch of pernod-ricard that is responsible for it) neither oxygénée nor pernod 68° are being made with the expectations of really having a realistic piece of the market...it is a waste of time and money for them to actually make a 'real' absinthe, and it is altogether possible that legally (or so they believe), they cannot...plus, the tax goes up significantly on alcohols over 45°, causing pause...however, françois guy absinthe, from pontarlier anis is a much better product, even though only 45°, naturally colored and totally distilled, and pontarlier anis is much, much better than pernod pastis, pernod 51 or ricard...françois guy is a small producer and can do whatever he wants, which includes actually making a high-quality product, without too much compromise...pernod-ricard is a huge corporation, that must chase the profits, first and primarily...one must respect their corporate philosophy, as it works to churn out money, but not their product, just beacuse it has a similar name....

By Robman on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Nothing to see here. Move along. Nothing to see here.

By Larsbogart on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Road closed. Please take a detour to another thread. Thank you and have a nice day.
That means you! Move along.
Any insults? Unkindly direct them to the NBC thread.
larsbogart

By Verawench on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Hmmm? What happened? I was napping in the arms of a tall northern gargoyle who whispered and whipsered until my ear burned....

By Mr_Rabid on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 08:19 pm: Edit

She done left me. But that's OK- I found a new place to dwell...

By Mvario on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 08:03 pm: Edit

where has the LOVE gone, man?

By Mr_Rabid on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 07:35 pm: Edit

" I am utterly contemptuous of Netiquette when it is used in defense of pain in the ass little know nothing sluts like Vera"

Well then, live by the flame... >:)

I will be glad to tilt the windmill in defence of the wench.

Tell me, you puffed up, sententious blowhard, as you look at me with your one good eye (now what does that remind me of?) are you a coprophage or does your breath smell like that because your ego finally choked off your frontal lobe and caused it to putrefy?

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:58 pm: Edit

Angryp, point taken.

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:56 pm: Edit

Nobody has to answer you, Ordinary, because your questions are rooted in sheer ignorance.

If Pernod-Ricard is the Maserati of anise liqueurs, it just means that they own a proud name, but in fact they switched to making go-karts several decades ago and forgot how to make race cars. More precisely, all their race car engineers and mechanics retired or died around the time you were sucking on your momma's tits.

You extoll the virtues of a Pernod you have bever tasted, while those who have tasted it, pan it.

You decry the virtues of Jade, which you have never tasted, and attempt to deny the legitimacy of its development, despite the fact that you are utterly unqualified on technical grounds to do so. You characterize umopened bottles of original Pernod that you have NEVER SEEN as "oxidized" when clearly you have NO basis on which to do so. And every time you open your mouth to talk about the science of all this you just put your foot in it. Over and over, for all to see.

By Angryp on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:21 pm: Edit

Oh, I wasn't challenging your statement on when Pernod Fils stopped making Absinthe. Just on FLW's cause of death.

By Dr_Ordinaire on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:12 pm: Edit

(yawn)

Is that the job division at Jade, Ted? You yawn, Don insults?

Nobody answers...

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Yes, and Pernod stopped making absinthe in Spain in 1957. My statement stands.

Two decades passed before Ricard acquired Pernod, and in that time any institutional memory from the Spanish operation, the last and final absinthe production by Pernod, was LOST forever.

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Right ON, Ted.

By Angryp on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:04 pm: Edit

Don wrote:

As to Frank Lloyd Wright, well, he got shot to death just about the time that Pernod lost any touch with anyone with they'd employed who knew how to make absinthe.

Frank Lloyd Wright died in 1959 of natural causes (he had been in poor health for many years).

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:02 pm: Edit

"What are the chances that that is the ONLY molecule that changes? Minimal."

(yawn)


"For you and Ted to think that the absinthe you are drinking is even remotely close to the original, and moreso, for the two of you to have the balls to be critical of modern day Pernod...man..."


Jorge, you know little of old Pernod, new Pernod, or science.

Lose the envy and get a job.

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Pernod ceased to operate in France in 1915.

Pernod made absinthe in Spain from then till sometime in the 1950s, off and on.

The quality of the Spanish Pernod absinthe diminished as the decades piled on, i.e., what they produced in the 50s bore little resemblance to what they produced in France pre-1915.

Meanwhile Pernod resumed ops in France in 1946 making PASTIS.

In the 1970s, RICARD pastis makers bought out the Pernod pastis makers. At that time, Pernod's Spanish branch hadn't made absinthe in TWENTY YEARS and obviously Pernon in France hadn't made absinthe since 1915. In fact Pernod in France made NOTHING between 1915 and 1946. They sold their factory buildings to Nestle.

Modern Pernod pastis as produced by Pernod Ricard is dreck, and far inferior to Ricard pastis.

So why oh why does Dr Ordinaire assume, against all reason, that the Green Fairy resides at P-R?

She packed her bags and decamped in 1915, and that's a fact.

The modern Pernod 68, by all accounts, does not make it to La Fee standards. It's like a bad batch of La Fee.

Yet Ordinaire believes that somewhere Pernod-Ricard has The Formula preserved and locked in a vault.

BULLSHIT! He confuses the brand's former glory (which WE honor and maintain!) with the distant, degenerate bastard cousin that makes bad pastis and prostitutes the name.

Oh, pls, Dr O, come and destroy me some more!

Incompetence does not become you.

By Sicboy13 on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:27 pm: Edit

"And Sicky, the only way I want to have with you lot is Away."

Don, you never answered my question, please elaborate...I want to fight too!

By Don_Walsh on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:17 pm: Edit

As usual, Ordinaire, you demonstrate both your collosal ignorance of organic chemistry and your slavish devotion to the MYTH that Pernod-Ricard has ANYTHING to do with the old Pernod concern.

We can and do "see" hundreds of discrete substances in absinthe, with instrumental techniques you know NOTHING about.

As to Frank Lloyd Wright, well, he got shot to death just about the time that Pernod lost any touch with anyone with they'd employed who knew how to make absinthe.

You haven't tasted the new Pernod 68 and you haven't tasted Jade. But you worship the former and are sneering at the latter out of your colossal jealousy.

Those who have tasted the Pernod 68 such as Petermarc are singularly unimpressed.

But you think it's the Holy Grail.

You come off like Absintheur with most of his brain removed.

Man, you are really lame.

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