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Quote:

The Medieval Catholic church was hardly a democracy and the very idea that ordinary people should do anything but follow the Church's orders was an anathema.

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By Auntieminda on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Weeping tears of blood? Baz, you're a miracle.

Heal Me!

hallelujah,
Auntie M

By Auntieminda on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 02:42 pm: Edit

"When beatification and canonization procedures were not yet consigned to the authority of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints (instituted in 1588 by Pope Sixtus V) and to the Holy Father himself, it was the "vox populi" or "spontaneous local attribution" which led to the proclaiming of saints. This was the case, for example, of St. Anthony of Padua."
Quoted from "What Is A Saint".

Smiles,
Auntie M

By Destiny on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 02:15 pm: Edit

Baz, are you gonna use "Plan B" for your murder trial?

By Baz on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 01:30 pm: Edit

If I get so stressed that my eyeballs bleed, can I be a saint too? I've got a murder trial in 4 weeks and can't hardly deal with the shit anymore. Saint Baz the Defender!!!!

By Verawench on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 01:28 pm: Edit

The Pope was ocassionally forced to make a saint. Case in point, St. Francis of Assissi, who during his lifetime criticized papal decadence and excesses and generally annoyed the hell out of Rome. Stigmata also helped.

By Lordhobgoblin on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:09 pm: Edit

No that was not so.

The people never had any say in the business of the Church (perish the thought!). The hierarchy of the Church and ultimately the Pope decided on who was beatified. How could ordinary people decide? Only the Pope is God's direct representative on Earth and as it is God who decides who is a Saint, the decision can only come through the Pope. As being a Saint is about having a certain status in Heaven it is not possible to be a Saint while living on Earth.

The Medieval Catholic church was hardly a democracy and the very idea that ordinary people should do anything but follow the Church's orders was an anathema. Choosing Saints, certainly not! Many of these popular miracle-workers may have been chosen by the Church hierarchy as Saints after their death, but certainly not while they were alive.

Hobgoblin

By Auntieminda on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:36 am: Edit

I'm pretty sure it wasn't always a requirement for a Saint to be dead. Medieval saints could be living, for they were chosen by their popularity and miracles among the people, and not by the Pope and company.

Smiles,
Auntie M

By Mr_Rabid on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 05:43 pm: Edit

Cloning will devalue them though- I mean, if EVERYBODY on your block has one of the Pope's testicles...

By Lordhobgoblin on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Perhaps they were just speculating on the Sainthood market. Maybe some folks just looked at someone and thought "this guy might be a likely candidate for sainthood so I reckon that a decent sized piece of his liver could be a good investment, and I may just help him on his way to sainthood in the process, thus speeding up the potential value of my share of him". I mean like if someone had the foresight to carve up John the Baptist when he was alive and pass the pieces on as family heirlooms his descendants would be well set up.

The Dalai Lama better watch his back as a market in Arahant pieces could pay good dividends in the future and banking on him would be a reasonable bet.

Hobgoblin.

By Verdigris_Harpy on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:49 am: Edit

I do'nt know ...mebbe I confused.Perhaps if soemone got wind of someone being up for being a saint,they tried to hack pieces off of em.

By _Blackjack on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:45 am: Edit

Er, yes, you must be dead to be a saint. The church recently eased up the qualifications (probably because a lot less people are reporting miracles these days) but death is definitely still one of them...

By Baz on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:08 am: Edit

Don't you have to already be dead to be a saint??

except in football, then you just have to suck!!!

By Verdigris_Harpy on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:59 am: Edit

I learned in one philosophy class from
a rogue priest gone athiest(my second rogue
priest gone athiest philosophy professer-
apparently a potential hazard of sending potential
priests to college)that back in the day
the groupies would try to kill or maim any saint
to get a piece of em,and there was a big trade
even back then in bones,shriveled up organs,etc.

Apparently even then they were more valuable
dead than alive,cause they could sell well or impart a little health and wealth for the bearer
of the bone,etc.

Of course the body is just a mortal coil and suffering is the way to sainthood and heaven,so why not.


Pretty box.Maybe if the pres goes to look at it he
will be safer on his trip to Llama Land.

By Petermarc on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 02:58 am: Edit

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/03/21/peru.embassy.blast/index.html
>Interesting place Peru.....

-yup, i'd say so...did you get the idea that there was this kind of heat when you were there?

By Lordhobgoblin on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 03:42 pm: Edit

As a boy growing up in a Catholic family I remember medals with tiny bits of Saint Martin's clothes on the back of them. All I can say is that St Martin must have had a hell of a big wardrobe as there were tons of these medals about.

And just how the hell did some of the Virgin Mary's breast milk come to be collected and stored. Did she use an extractor and keep it in bottles in her refigerator and forget about them or something? Because it's not as if Jesus was remotely famous until a hell of a long time after he stopped feeding on breast milk.

And then we have all those crying statues in Italian churches.

Hobgoblin

By Chevalier on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 10:25 am: Edit

¡Nos vemos, Eduardo!

By Tabreaux on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 07:54 am: Edit

I had some business to conduct, and I was not certain of my schedule, so I would not have suggested you to fly up. I may have to go back in 2-3 months, and I will advise if I do.

By Chevalier on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:26 am: Edit

Ted, you know that Chile is just south of Peru! I would have gladly flown up to Lima to see you. Why didn't you let on about your visit?

By Verawench on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 09:10 pm: Edit

In most cases, the bigger or more significant the organ or bone (heart, skull) of a saint, the more important the church.

From what I know, the Catholic church was careful in phrasing its policy towards relics - they were not to be regarded as mere talismans or bits of flesh left for worship but rather as fragments of vessels that once contained the holy ghost.

By Etienne on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 09:09 pm: Edit

Quite so, Ted, a beautiful picture. Thanks.

By Verawench on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 09:05 pm: Edit

That's very beautiful Ted, thanks.

Relics were a passion of mine as a child: skulls, single ribs, tiny bits of finger bone enshrined in gold and mother of pearl... Or my favorite: drops of the Virgin's breast milk, one of Sainte Chapelle's assets.

By Etienne on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 09:03 pm: Edit

Displaying relics was nothing unusual in the Catholic Church... of course, they got over it in most of Europe about five hundred years ago.

By Joalco on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Very cool and unusual pic, Ted... Thanks for sharing!

By Tabreaux on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Having just returned from several days in Peru, I took a pleasant walk through the Plaza de Armas one morning after a few cups of coca tea.

By chance, I stumbled into this very old church (circa 1500s), where I came upon this most curious and magnificant shrine to Santa Rosa (d. 1617), who apparently was the first saint born in the New World. I found it interesting that the skull of the saint was on display in the shrine (visible in photo).



Interesting place Peru.....