Archive through March 25, 2002

Sepulchritude Forum: The Absinthe Forum Archive Thru March 2002: BETINA ELIXIRS ANNOUNCEMENT...NEW PERNOD ABSINTHE:Archive through March 25, 2002
By Timk on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 06:43 am: Edit

Seriously? - have you tried for instance comparing two extractions of A.Absinthium harvested at the same point in the plants life cycle, but grown under different conditions?

By Tabreaux on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 06:30 am: Edit

[....unless the conditions had some major effect on the amount of one or other alcohol soluable substance in the herb.]


They do...significantly. In fact, the differences can be so profound as to render two otherwise 'identical' distilled preparations virtually unrecognizable.

By Timk on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 05:59 am: Edit

"I humbly disagree! Wormwood grown in different regions in my little country, and on even slightly different kind of soils taste different."

This is may be, but once you have extracted the alcohol soluable compounds in the wormwood, all you will have is slightly different quantities of these compounds. This different to saying that the raw plant tastes different from region to region. I still hold that differences in the region the herbs were grown will have little effect on the taste of the distillate, unless the conditions had some major effect on the amount of one or other alcohol soluable substance in the herb. Its not being fermented either which would amplify the changes.

By Don_Walsh on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 03:51 am: Edit

Luger, it is a little unfair to compare the complexity of a fermented then wood-aged distilled spirit like whiskey, brandy, or even rum, with absinthe (or gin) which are herbal liquors.

Absinthe has its own complexities but they are simple in comparison to whiskeys and brandies.

I can't discuss details but, you know that Ted and I are savvy about herbs and how to source them, and we don't settle for second best.

Nor are we less fastidious about the alcohol we use. We do understand the significance of the right feedstock and the right congeners.

Absinthe is not a fermented liquor. Nor is it generally aged, much less aged for years in wood. We will be doing some experiments about this, with a view toward some future products if things work out, but this is innovation not reproduction of an old technique insofar as absinthe is concerned. For one thing, wood aging will introduce color and not green color!

Herbal essential oils have been studies for a long time. What mysteries that remain are minor for the most part. A lot of the relevant herbs contain several of the same compounds, so the matrix is simpler than one might expect. Furthermore the distillation process is selective, and the product is simpler than the steep, from a GC point of view.

By Petermarc on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:58 am: Edit

free the umlaut!

By Luger on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:34 am: Edit

>BÄÄÄÄHHH!!!
very economic way to express
all the disgust and frustration.

Yeah, it says it all!
The best possible word, and still it is not in any vocabulary!

Luger

By Head_Prosthesis on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:33 am: Edit

And on the "Budweiser" front, they claim to still "care about quality". Years ago quality WAS THE main ingredient in the best, finest products, but today we know that bullshit and money, walk and talk, hand in hand.

Did I have a point?

ALL I know is, little old Larry Bell makes the best beer I've ever tasted. Right here in MOTHERFUCKIN' K-ZOOO MICHIGAN!!!

By Aion on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:17 am: Edit

>BÄÄÄÄHHH!!!
very economic way to express
all the disgust and frustration.

By Petermarc on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:43 am: Edit

then again, 'real' budweiser, that is from budvar, drunk fresh, in the czech republic, is not the same, either (in a good way)
luger-that's still pretty bad, though...

By Luger on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:42 am: Edit

>BÄÄÄÄHHH!!!

>notice how the 'a' has two dots over it...now that's >bad...

Hehe! These "Ä" are pronounced as "A" in "Bad", so BÄÄÄÄHHHH is pronounced about the same as baaaaad.

Luger

By Luger on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:38 am: Edit

>We know how the herbs were grown, generally in >optimum conditions, as they would be today, and >A.Absinthium is A.Absinthium whichever way you cut >it. Sure, they may have used Greek Fennel or >whatever, but unless the growing conditions were >totally different, or the fennel variety a local >varient, the difference would be negligable.

I humbly disagree! Wormwood grown in different regions in my little country, and on even slightly different kind of soils taste different. That's easy for any one of you to test. The same goes for other seeds. European Corriandre has a different taste than the Asian one. You don't have to take my word for it, because it is easy to try it out yourself. These things are obvious, but it is not so obvious ( to me ) where the barley was grown when making Whisky. The real connoisseur can notice these differences. The same can of course be said of grapes.

Water? Yes, it is important too! At least in Scotch and Cognac, where substances from the original water are present in the final product. I cannot tell the difference because I even don´t like Whisky at all, but those that do tell me it is important. So does numerous writers of books about Whisky, so I have no option but to believe them!

So: The origin of the plants is in my humble opinion important.


>ALL THAT MATTERS IS HOW IT PLEASES YOUR TASTE BUDS >HERE AND NOW!

YEAHH!!! That´s it! I agree in every way with your post.
As a drinker, me and my taste buds are the king. If it pleases you you could compare Vintage Pernod with whatever you want, and come up with any opinion you want. It is here, it is now.

However: As being interested in history, and a collector of old things I find it obnoxious when someone tries to fool me that some new made things are "historically accurate" "authentic" e.t.c. Vintage is Vintage, and no more will ever be made. There is still possible to make new things as great or even perhaps better than in the old days, but why use words that simply are not true? Why do I have to see ads for "Stoeger Lugers" claiming to be authentic and historically accurate, when they are not? I'm really looking for an answer because I and others have often wondered.

> Point being, if changes take place they leave >tracks. They do not disappear. The new compounds >are present. Everything is accounted for.

The Scotch Whisky research institute has only suceeded in identifying about 400 different substances in Whisky, and they say there are about just as many left to discover, so if you want to make $$$, you might consider lending them a helping hand.
Amazing that there is so much to learn about such a drink, if you consider that the contents are: Barley, Water, yeast, and oak. ( A bit simplified I know :-) )

Actually if Whisky and Cognac really ages in the bottle is debated, but Cognac and Armagnac are often aged in glass bottles for several years, just because they believe a change takes place. In older litterature regarding Whisky one can see that Whisky gets "Brandyfied" ( Turns somewhat into Brandy) when aged in bottles for decades. So yes a change takes place.
Does this change make it better or worse? That is up to the individual to decide.
If you really want to buy a piece of history, then you will have to find the cash to do so, but if you really are a connoisseur, you should be able to appreciate the difference between a piece of history, and a new made product that may be fantastic in every way. And if it is, it will probably be able to stand up on it´s own, without a variation of "made according to old french 1500th century recipes".


Cheers: Luger

By Nolan on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:36 am: Edit

Hmmmmm,not much has changed in a hundred years.
Has it?And yet people still want absinthe.And I will tell ya something else.jenlain french country ale or biere de garde is mucho better than bud ever thought about being.But bud out sells everything.Its a cryin shame I tell ya.So,lets hope more and more absinthes hit the market.
Hell,I am willing to try em all!!

By Petermarc on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:09 am: Edit

>BÄÄÄÄHHH!!!

notice how the 'a' has two dots over it...now that's bad...

By Petermarc on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:07 am: Edit

actually raschied, you got it pretty much right...pernod fils was most likely the 'budweiser' of absinthes...accepted as the best, considered the 'original,' with consumers on either side, being that, there were absinthes better(or equal, but different) than pernod fils, 'micro-absinthes' of drastically varying qualities (in lyon, and other towns, there were little distillers all over, just making stuff for local bistros) and many, not as good or much worse(blatz, st yves, etc)...

By Aion on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 12:51 am: Edit

Pernod Pastis
- Sugar
+ very nasty bitterness
+ alcohol
------------------------
= NEW PERNOD ABSINTHE

My review:
BÄÄÄÄHHH!!!

By Tabreaux on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 10:43 pm: Edit

Granted, but Budweiser does about as well in France as Pernod does here, and neither would likely have been fashionable in the Belle Epoque.

By Raschied on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 10:28 pm: Edit

I suddenly had a vision of Beer being banned for 100 years, and people longing for the magical taste of "what must've been the best" - The King of Beers, Budweiser!

By Don_Walsh on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Ordinary, you are not a Skeptic, you are a Gnostic. You are arguing that vintage absinthe is Unknowable. You are sneering at and belitling the work of others, despite the fact that they are fully qualified to do the work while you are totally unqualified in the hard sciences required. You make sweeping proclamations about what others are doing without having either seeing their processes nor having tasted their products even in pre-release samples.

There is no religioin involved.

Only you shooting off you mouth.

You are a Know-Nothing.

By Tabreaux on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:44 pm: Edit

If you've had a taste of that, then you have a very good idea of what to expect from an antique bottle of fine absinthe....without having to fork over a lot of cash to find out.

By Timk on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Hm, early and corked, no, late and corked, yes - it looks to be quite late, but its corked and 68degrees - same as the one in my profile picture

By Tabreaux on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 04:27 pm: Edit

I like the flavor of Pernod Tarragona. If the sample is from an early corked bottle, it is very remniscent of its Pontarlier ancestor (assuming it is a good state of preservation).

By Timk on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 03:09 pm: Edit

First of all, my comment was made in jest, so cool it, secondly, just because you dont care about it doesnt mean there arent people who do, and thirdly, I have tried Pernod Tarragona from a second mignonette I acquired, as far as I know, this has been described as pretty close to Pernod E, and it was a relatively well preserved sample, but how is that relevant, had I not any idea about what it tasted like, it wouldnt stop me discussing ways to recreate it.

By Lordhobgoblin on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 02:41 pm: Edit

TimK,

Jesus Christ some people on this forum have an unwarranted opinion of themselves. Educated and inquisitive? Bollocks! All it shows is the ability to write posts full of pretentious nonsense.

Blah, blah, blah, Pernod 68, blah, blah, blah, Belle Epoch, blah, blah, blah, degeneration of chlorophyll, blah, blah, blah, Jade absinthe, blah, blah, blah, chemical composition, blah, blah blah, herbal content, blah, blah, blah...

I do not care what original Pernod 68 tasted like. Does that make me uneducated? I drink absinthe solely beacuse I like the way it tastes here and now. Does that make me uneducated?

Have you tasted original Pernod 68? Have you tasted Jade absinthe? Discussing the merits of something you've never tasted is like discussing a film you've never seen.

I've tasted Jade but I haven't tasted original Pernod 68. I couldn't care less what original Pernod 68 tasted like but I do like the way Jade tastes here and now. If that makes me uninquisitive and uneducated then so be it, I don't fucking care.

Hobgoblin

By Tabreaux on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 02:39 pm: Edit

[I am presuming Teds research revolves around finding methods to detect the types of herb used...]

Just solving this particular problem in itself represents a project that requires a substantial volume of work. This is but one aspect of what is involved, and there are several others that are equally important in doing what we do. Just when one thinks he has answered everything, a new set of questions arises.

By Tabreaux on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 02:34 pm: Edit

[In what scientific forum would this statement:
"I have far more information at my disposal than one may assume." ....go unchallenged?]


Note: This is not a scientific forum.

Certain specialties of science may appear to be 'dogma' to some participants in this forum, and that is to be expected.

Meanwhile, in the scientific community, my work is scrutinized by my peers, who are all Ph.D. chemists. My work satisfies their challenges, and that satisifies me.

Finally, with regard to specifics of the alcohol and herbs used in crafting the Jade products, there are only two people who understand the specifics of those. That information has never been (and will not be) described or discussed here.

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